Electricals question......

Submitted: Thursday, May 24, 2007 at 19:53
ThreadID: 45851 Views:4240 Replies:5 FollowUps:22
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I was wondering if this is possible:-

While using the battery on the CT for powering the fridge & lights - Can I connect a battery charger from a generator up to charge the battery while still drawing power to run the fridge & lights from the CT battery? (long question I know)

Would this damage the fridge (Engel 40L)? (shorter question)

Thanks in advance to any replies.

Vinnie

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Reply By: Hairy - Thursday, May 24, 2007 at 20:03

Thursday, May 24, 2007 at 20:03
Gday,
Short answer is I dont know so wait for an electrician.
But I would asume it was no different than your alternator charging your battery while your driving and your fridge running.
Cheers
AnswerID: 242116

Follow Up By: Sand Man (SA) - Thursday, May 24, 2007 at 20:36

Thursday, May 24, 2007 at 20:36
For a non sparkie, that is a very good analogy Hairy.

No damage will be caused to the fridge, or the battery.
Bill


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Reply By: joc45 - Thursday, May 24, 2007 at 20:21

Thursday, May 24, 2007 at 20:21
Winnie,
In short, yes.
Even a simple charger should be no problem, provided your battery is in reasonable condition. I say this as simpler chargers give a ripple on the DC output, but provided the battery is in good condition, it will flatten out the ripples, thereby having no effect on your Engel or whatever. You should have no problems with overvoltage, as most fridges, etc will take 15v or so.
The only thing I might add is that with a lower output charger, you might not achieve full recharge on your battery while running other devices. But this is better than running the battery down using no charger.
Gerry

AnswerID: 242125

Follow Up By: Maddmav - Thursday, May 24, 2007 at 20:31

Thursday, May 24, 2007 at 20:31
Thanks Winnie

The reason is mainly when we camp, it is for around 4 to 9 days depending on the location - time factor and so on. I can get about 4 days on the battery (100 amp Deep Cycle) running two 8 watt lights a couple of hours at night and the fridge on normal constant. I was just hoping for some choice as to how to get thru the extra days.

Vinnie
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Follow Up By: joc45 - Thursday, May 24, 2007 at 21:30

Thursday, May 24, 2007 at 21:30
Whoops, sorry Vinnie, not Winnie.
Slip of the finger!!
Gerry
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Reply By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Thursday, May 24, 2007 at 20:29

Thursday, May 24, 2007 at 20:29
Hi Vinnie

Yes no problem to do this. It is best if the charger is a 3 stage one and also if it can produce more amps then you are using so that you are gaining power and not loosing it.

We try fitting a 30 amp Smart Charger where possible as most AGMs will accept 30 amps and not many campers will pull more than 15 amps with lights and fridge running. This allows the Smart Charger to pump 15 amps at least into the battery at the same time.

Remember you don't want to run the genny longer then needed.

Our battery Desulfators are a good idea and should be fitted to every caravan battery.

Regards

Derek.

AnswerID: 242137

Follow Up By: Maddmav - Thursday, May 24, 2007 at 20:37

Thursday, May 24, 2007 at 20:37
Had a look at a few charger ideas at the camp show this year and got a little baboozled by the technical lingo from the sales people.

I don't like to run the genny when other campers around, keep the peace and everyone stays happy. Otherwise it's 4 hours to charge the battery.
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 19:50

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 19:50
>We try fitting a 30 amp Smart Charger where possible
>as most AGMs will accept 30 amps

Don't think so Derek.

It seems to be a common misconception that AGMs will accept whatever charge you can force into them but that is not what the manufacturers specify.

A 55Ah I was testing the other days had a max charge spec. of 16A5 and, iirc, a Fullriver 120Ah is speced at about 21A.

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 21:40

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 21:40
Hi Mike

I like you but you are sking on thin ice now.

55 a/h 16 amps per hour yes.

90 a/h 25.2 amps per hour yes.

100 a/h 27.4 amps per hours yes.

Check your figures, read my answer again, I did not say a 55 a/h will accept 30 amps per hour.

Have a good evening.

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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 21:58

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 21:58
>I like you but you are sking on thin ice now.

I'm fond of you too Derek; are you married? :)

110Ah - 22 amps or less
http://www.fullriver.com/products/admin/upfile/HGHL12430W.pdf

88Ah – 17.6 amps
Site Link

I could quote others.... I would be interested to see any data sheets which spec. 30A+?

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:31

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:31
From John Barrie:

The yard I work for has been using AGM's almost exclusively for the last four to five years. In that time we have returned 1 battery that we know of out of over 100 installed. We are not a "self service" yard, so all the work done on the boats is done by us and recorded, tracked, etc.

In general, AGM's, are, in my limited opinion, terrific batteries. They can be mounted in any position, almost any location and will take all the neglect you want to throw at them, as long as they are kept within the extremes. They will not tollerate over charging. If you exceed 16V for any length of time, you will kill them very quickly. If you run them dead, you are in for some work to get them back to life. Alternator sizing is very

Over-charging.

If you want to replace your batteries next week, charge them at 16V for a few hours and you will be pulling them. Exceeding even 15.5V for much more time will do the same. I.E., don't use an automotive type charger. The setup you mention should work, fine.

Going Dead.

They may not go dead very easilly, but if they do, you have to have the capability of "equalizing" them to get them back. When AGM's go dead, they will charge back up under normal charge parameters just like they normally do, slightly faster maybe, but they will not hold that charge. I.E., their true capacity will be greatly diminished. If you find that the batteries reach 13.1 volts and yet as soon as a load is put on them they start dropping down much faster than normal you need equalization. Oh, yes, equalizing a sealed battery is not a good thing to do, but Lifeline will heartilly recommend it as soon as they hear what you have to say the problem is.

15.5V for 3 hours is an AGM's equalization parameter. If you have a newer Link 2000 with an AGM battery selection (#3), then it "may" have this parameter in it. Some do, some don't. If not, set it for Lead Acid (#1) and raise the ambient temp to max... 120? and let it run for 3 hours. That will do 15.75V which is ok. This is of course, AFTER you have charged them normally and they "show" full charge.

Now, with the Link 2000 and Heart Inverter/Charger, and access to shore power, this is easy. Since cruisers "often" run batteries dead, accidentally of course, and do not always have access to shore power, you should consider having the capability of putting out that 15.5V off your alternator so you could accomplish this if you needed to away from the dock.

Alternator sizing and life expectancy.

A MAJOR issue with AGM batteries. AGM batteries will accept, in real life, a charge rate of 75% or more of their AH capacities. This means, a 200 AHr AGM battery can be charged at 150 Amps with no problem. The average cruiser will have 400 - 600 AH capacities, but I know of few, if any, alternators capable of putting out 300+ Amps. Another good point about the AGM's is that they will be quite happy with a charger that does not meet this parameter, they will just charge slower, unlike Lead Acid batteries which will loose capacity if charged at a lower than proper rate. BUT, AGM's will suck in everything they can get ahold of!

A "high output" alternator can mean different things to different people and something entirely different to a set of AGM's. If you have a couple of 8D AGM's, they will provide something in excess of 400 AH. They will, during the Bulk Charging Phase be able to draw around 300 Amps. Since you don't have an alternator of that size, they will pull EVERYTHING the alternator can give it. If your alternator is not capable of putting out Max charge current for any length of time, you will watch it burn up.

Balmar alternators (very good) are conservatively rated. A 100 Amp alternator will, generally, put out 125 amps when pressed. They are also capable of temps which exceed 280 deg. F., though the company does not like you reaching that range. We have watched this very alternator put out 132 Amps for over 45 minutes trying to charge three 8D's. The temp of the alternator, with a cooling fan blowing right on it, exceeded 300 deg. F. before the Bulk Charging Phase was done and things calmed down. We added a second Balmar in this installation.

I.E., most alternators are rated at an amount the manufacturer does not "expect" you to operate at for any length of time. The AGM will test that capacity and then some. Make sure your choice of alternator can truly handle what you are asking it to do or you will be replacing it.

Again, AGM's are, to me, terrific batteries, but there are certain things which need to be taken into account when you switch to them. The above are just three of the more important points to consider, the last, being something rarely mentioned in any store, as the cost of a new alternator can often put people off.

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Follow Up By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:35

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:35
From Wind Sun:

AGM batteries are a special case - the can be charged at up the the Cx4 rate, or 400% of the capacity for the bulk charge cycle. However, since very few battery cables can take that much current, we don't recommend you try this at home. To avoid cable overheating, you should stick to C/4 or less.
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Follow Up By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:38

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:38
From Concorde:

The AGM battery has an extremely low internal electrical resistance. This, combined with faster acid migration, allows the AGM batteries to deliver and absorb higher rates of amperage than any other sealed batteries during discharging and charging. In addition, AGM technology batteries can be charged at normal flooded lead-acid regulated charging voltages, therefore, it is not necessary to recalibrate charging systems or purchase special chargers. Concorde AGM batteries can be bulk charged at extremely high rates without damage - up to 10 times as fast as gelled cells, and 5 times as fast as flooded batteries.

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Follow Up By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:54

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:54
From fishing & boats:

ABSORBED GLASS MAT BATTERIES

AGM batteries like Gel cells are also classed as Sealed Valve Regulated (SVR) batteries. The electrolyte is held within a very fine microporous (boron-silicate) glass matting that is placed between the plates, which absorbs and immobilizes the acid while still allowing rapid plate and acid interaction. Another term used for AGM batteries is starved electrolyte batteries, and this is because the glass matting is only 95% soaked in electrolyte. In a normal lead-acid battery, water loss will occur when it is electrically broken down into oxygen and hydrogen near the end of charging. In a battery during charging, oxygen will evolve at the positive plate at approximately 75% of full charge level, and Hydrogen evolves at the negative plate at approximately 90% of full charge. In normal batteries, the evolved gases disperse to atmosphere, resulting in electrolyte loss and periodic water replacement, and these are the bubbles seen in the cells during charging. During charging the current causes decomposition of the water, and oxygen is evolves on the positive plate. The oxygen then migrates through the unfilled pores of the separator matting to react with the negative plate and form lead oxide, lead sulfate and water. The charge current reduces and does not generate hydrogen. The low maintenance recombinational battery has different characteristics. The plates and separators are held under pressure. During charging, the evolved oxygen is only able to move through the separator pores from positive to negative, reacting with the lead plate to recombine. The negative plate charge is then effectively maintained below 90% so inhibiting hydrogen generation. They emit less than 2% hydrogen gas during severe overcharge (4.1% is flammable level). The operational principle is called the recombinant gas absorbed electrolyte, as the generated gases recombine within the battery and significantly reduce hydrogen emissions. They emit less than 2% hydrogen gas during severe overcharge (4.1% is flammable level). This recombination process reduces water loss by over 98% in comparison to wet cell batteries, so the elimination of maintenance is obvious. The recombination process is different to a gel cell and takes place within the separator in a molecular state, with the cells being sealed and the relief valves provide a safe positive pressure during charging.

There are variations to traditional flat plate manufacturing techniques, and the Optima® AGM batteries have a spiral cell, and dual plate construction. Another important claimed feature is a greater shock and vibration resistance than gel cell or flooded batteries. They also have extremely high CCA values of up to 800 amps at 0ºF, however the one drawback that stopped me installing these was the limitation in rating sizes, which is only 56 Ah. They are however a very good option for smaller boats. Charging of AGM cells have few limitations, and no special charge settings are required to smart fast charge regulators. The batteries have a very low internal resistance and during heavy charge and discharge there are no heating effects. As they have a high charge acceptance rate they can be bulk charged at very high currents, typically by a factor of 5 over flooded cells, and a factor of 10 over gel batteries. They also allow 30% deeper discharges and recharge 20% faster than gel batteries and good recovery performance from full discharge conditions. Self-discharge rates are only 1%-3% per month at 77°F, which is improved over rates in flooded cells and gel cells. Water loss can occur in batteries, and this is caused by decreases in the efficiency of recombination, excessive charge voltages in particular float charging, corrosion of grids, transpiration through the cell casings (so keep batteries as cool as possible), and self discharge, which also increases with higher temperatures. If you are a weekend, harbour or river cruiser, that does limited motoring periods, or leave the boat unattended for long periods, the AGM battery is a viable proposition, as it has very low self-discharge rates, and very high recovery rates from deep discharges. As charge acceptance rates are very high and charging is in the range 14.4 to 14.6 volts a fast charge regulator has the capacity burn out alternators. Many undersized alternators run at full output for considerable time periods and overheat. There is a good case for installing high output alternators to maximize charging, and the added load on the engine is a bonus.
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Follow Up By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:57

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:57
While I'm at it how about some terms:

Absorbed Glass Mat - AGM - "Absorbed Glass Mats", or AGM is packed between the plates. The Boron-Silicate glass mat consists of very fine fibers . These type of batteries have all the advantages of gelled batteries, but can take more abuse.

Nearly all AGM batteries are recombinant, the Oxygen and Hydrogen recombine inside the battery. These use gas phase transfer of oxygen to the negative plates to recombine them back into water while charging and prevent the loss of water through electrolysis. The recombining is typically 99+% efficient, so almost no water is lost.

During cell overcharging, hydrogen gas (H2) and oxygen gas (O2) are contrived through the dissociation of water (H2O) in the cell’s positive plate electrolyte. AGM cells incorporate an oxygen recombination process during overcharge, a process where oxygen gas is recombined to the negative cell plates. While oxygen is produced and fully recombined, hydrogen is not; excess hydrogen can accumulate within the cell jar and cause the internal cell pressure to increase. With increased voltage level, gases are produced at a faster rate. To mitigate cell explosion, a vent plug alleviates internal cell pressures by expelling excessive gas build-up.

Amp (A) - is a measure of electric current; one A of current represents one coulomb of electrical charge moving past a specific point in one second (1 C/s = 1 A).

Antimony - is added to lead to increase hardness. The high antimony content also reduces long discharge capability and increases the gases produced by the cells during charging.

Autonomy -is the length of time which a battery bank can support a specific load without overcharging. A value used to measure battery reserve capacity and system reliability.

Battery — Two or more electrochemical cells enclosed in a container and electrically interconnected in an appropriate series/parallel arrangement to provide the required operating voltage and current levels. Under common usage, the term battery also applies to a single cell if it constitutes the entire electrochemical storage system.

Battery bank - is a group of batteries wired in series or parallel (or both), to store the electrical energy produced for later usage.

Battery Available Capacity — The total maximum charge, expressed in ampere-hours, that can be withdrawn from a cell or battery under a specific set of operating conditions including discharge rate, temperature, initial state of charge, age, and cut-off voltage.

Battery Cell — are the most basic individual component of a storage battery. They consist of one or more positive electrodes or plates, an electrolyte that permits ionic conduction, one or more negative electrodes or plates, separators between plates of opposite polarity, and a container for the above.

Battery Cycle Life — The number of cycles, to a specified depth of discharge, that a cell or battery can undergo before failing to meet its specified capacity or efficiency performance criteria.

Battery Energy Capacity — The total energy available, expressed in watt-hours (kilowatt-hours), which can be withdrawn from a fully charged cell or battery. The energy capacity of a given cell varies with temperature, rate, age, and cut-off voltage. This term is more common to system designers than it is to the battery industry where capacity usually refers to ampere-hours.

Battery Energy Storage — Energy storage using electrochemical batteries. The three main applications for battery energy storage systems include spinning reserve at generating stations, load leveling at substations, and peak shaving on the customer side of the meter.

Battery Life — The period during which a cell or battery is capable of operating above a specified capacity or efficiency performance level. Life may be measured in cycles and/or years, depending on the type of service for which the cell or battery is intended.

Capacity -Deep cycle batteries are rated in amp-hours. An amp-hour is one amp for one hour, or 10 amps for 1/10 of an hour. Stated mathematically (amps x hours). If you have something that consumes 20 amps, and you use it for 30 minutes, then the amp-hours used would be 20 (amps) x .5 (hours), or 10 AH. The the most common accepted AH rating time period for batteries used in solar electric and backup power systems is the "20 hour rate". This means that a battery is discharged down to 10.5 volts (100% capacity) over a 20 hour period while the total actual amp-hours it supplies is measured. The 100 hour rate is sometimes given just to make the battery look better than it really is. See Peukert Effect below.

The maximum total electrical charge, expressed in ampere-hours, which a battery can deliver to a load under a specific set of conditions.

Two 6V, 225Ah batteries are wired in Series, the voltage is doubled but the amp-hour capacity remains 225Ah (Total Power = 2700 Watt-hours [225A * 12V]).
Two 6V, 225Ah batteries wired in Parallel will have a total storage capacity of 450Ah at 6V (or 2700 Watt hours [225A * 2 = 450Ah] and [450Ah * 6V = 2700] ).
Series-Parallel looks and sounds more complicated, however the principal is the same. Consider, four 6V cells are wired in two "strings" of 12VDC that were then wired in parallel. Using 6V, 225Ah batteries, this system will have a storage capacity of 450Ah at 12V or 5400Wh.
Capacity (False)- A battery can meet all the tests for being at full charge, yet be much lower than it's original capacity. If plates are damaged, sulfated, or partially gone from long use, the battery may give the appearance of being fully charged, but in reality act like a battery of smaller size. This can occur in gelled cells too if they are overcharged and gaps (bubbles) occur in the gel.

Captive Electrolyte Battery — A battery having an immobilized electrolyte (gelled or absorbed in a material).

Cell (battery) — A single unit of an electrochemical device capable of producing direct voltage by converting chemical energy into electrical energy. A battery usually consists of several cells electrically connected together to produce higher voltages. (Sometimes the terms cell and battery are used interchangeably). Also see photovoltaic (PV) cell.

Charge Factor — A number representing the time in hours during which a battery can be charged at a constant current without damage to the battery. Usually expressed in relation to the total battery capacity, i.e., C/5 indicates a charge factor of 5 hours. Related to charge rate.

Charge Rate — The current applied to a cell or battery to restore its available capacity. This rate is commonly normalized by a charge control device with respect to the rated capacity of the cell or battery.

Battery charging takes place in 3 basic stages: Bulk, Absorption, and Float.

Bulk Charge - The first stage of 3-stage battery charging. Current is sent to batteries at the maximum safe rate until voltage rises to near (80-90%) full charge level. Voltages at this stage typically range from 10.5 volts to 15 volts. There is no "correct" voltage for bulk charging, but there are limits on the maximum current that the battery and/or wiring can take.

Absorption Charge: The second stage of 3-stage battery charging. Voltage remains constant and current gradually tapers off as internal resistance increases during charging. It is during this stage that the charger puts out maximum voltage. Voltages at this stage are typically around 14.2 to 15.5 volts.

Float Charge: The third stage of 3-stage battery charging. After batteries reach full charge, charging voltage is reduced to a lower level (typically 12.8 to 13.2) to reduce gassing and prolong battery life. This is often referred to as a maintenance or trickle charge, since it's main purpose is to keep an already charged battery from discharging. PWM, or "pulse width modulation" accomplishes the same thing. In PWM, the controller or charger senses tiny voltage drops in the battery and sends very short charging cycles (pulses) to the battery. This may occur several hundred times per minute. It is called "pulse width" because the width of the pulses may vary from a few microseconds to several seconds. Note that for long term float service, such as backup power systems that are seldom discharged, the float voltage should be around 13.02 to 13.20 volts.


Conductance - is the ability of a battery to conduct current. It is a measurement of the plate surface available in a battery for chemical reaction, which determines how much power the battery can supply. Conductance can be used to detect cell defects, shorts, and open circuits which can cause the battery to fail.

Conversion Efficiency - is how well a battery converts an electrical charge into chemical energy and back again. The higher this factor, the less energy is converted into heat and the faster a battery can be charged without overheating.

Current -is the rate at which electricity flows through a conductor; measured in amps (A). Current flow over time is defined as ampere-hours (a.k.a. amp-hours or Ah), a product of the average current and the amount of time it flowed.

Cycles (Battery)- A period of discharge and recharge is called one cycle. A battery cycle is one complete discharge and recharge cycle. It is usually considered to be discharging from 100% to 20% DOD, and then back to 100%. Battery performance may be measured by the expected number of cycles it may deliver at varying depths of discharge.

Cycle Life - is the measure of how many charge and discharge cycles a battery can take before its lead-plate grids/plates are expected to collapse and short out. The greater the average depth-of-discharge, the shorter the cycle life. Be careful when looking at ratings that list how many cycles a battery is rated for unless it also states how far down it is being discharged. A battery that is rated for a 20 year life expectancy if discharged by only 5% may have a 5 year life expectancy if discharged to 50%. A battery that is continually cycled 5% or less will usually not last as long as one cycled down 10%. At shallow discharge cycles Lead Dioxide builds up on the the positive plates rather in an even film. Calculate based on an average DOD of around 50% for the best storage vs. cost factor.

Deep-Cycle Battery — A battery with large plates that can withstand many discharges to a low state-of-charge. Deep Cycle batteries have thicker lead plates that make them tolerate deep discharges better. They cannot dispense charge as quickly as a starter battery but can also be used to start combustion engines. Thicker lead plates lead to a longer the life span. Battery weight is a simple indicator for the thickness of the lead plates used in a battery. The heavier a battery for a given group size, the thicker the plates, and the better the battery will tolerate deep discharges.

Deep Discharge — Discharging a battery to 20% or less of its full charge capacity.

Depth of Discharge (DOD) — is a measure of how deeply a battery is discharged. When a battery is 100% full, then the DOD is 0%. The ampere-hours removed from a fully charged cell or battery, expressed as a percentage of rated capacity. For example 25 Ah are removed from a 100 Ah battery, thus it's depth of discharge is 25% and the battery is at a 75% state of charge.

Direct current ( DC )- electric current which flows in only one direction in a wire. Our turbines and batteries are DC

Discharge — The withdrawal of electrical energy from a battery.

Discharge Factor — A number equivalent to the time in hours during which a battery is discharged at constant current usually expressed as a percentage of the total battery capacity, i.e., C/5 indicates a discharge factor of 5 hours. Related to discharge rate.

Discharge Rate — The rate, usually expressed in amperes or time, at which electrical current is taken from the battery.

Electrolyte — A nonmetallic (liquid or solid) conductor that carries current by the movement of ions (instead of electrons) with the liberation of matter at the electrodes of an electrochemical cell.

Equalization Charge — The process of mixing the electrolyte in batteries by periodically overcharging the batteries for a short time. This is a continuation of normal battery charging, at a voltage level slightly higher than the normal end-of-charge voltage, in order to provide cell equalization within a battery. This is a process of balancing the state of charge in all the cells that form a battery bank to remove sulphates from battery plates and restore capacity.

Float Charge — The voltage required to counteract the self-discharge of the battery at a certain temperature.

Freezing Point of all Lead Acid batteries — The temperature at which the electrolyte will freeze based on the battery's state of Chage (SoG)

Approx. (SoC)
State-of-Charge
Approx. Electrolyte Freeze Point

100%
(-67°C)

75%
(-37°C)

50%
(-23°C)

25%
(-15°C)

0% (DISCHARGED)
(-6.7°C)


Gassing - is when batteries start to gas when you attempt to charge them faster than they can absorb the energy. The excess energy is turned into heat, which then causes the electrolyte to boil and evaporate.

Gassing Current — The portion of charge current that goes into electrolytical production of hydrogen and oxygen from the electrolytic liquid. This current increases with increasing voltage and temperature.

Gel-Type Battery — Lead-acid battery in which the electrolyte is composed of a silica gel matrix.

Lead-acid battery - is a electrical storage device that uses a reversible chemical reaction to store energy. It uses a combination of lead plates or grids and an electrolyte consisting of a diluted sulphuric acid to convert electrical energy into potential chemical energy and back again.

Liquid Electrolyte Battery — A battery containing a liquid solution of acid and water. Distilled water may be added to these batteries to replenish the electrolyte as necessary. Also called a flooded battery because the plates are covered with the electrolyte.

Maintenance-Free Battery — A sealed battery to which water cannot be added to maintain electrolyte level.

Nickel Cadmium Battery — A battery containing nickel and cadmium plates and an alkaline electrolyte.

Nominal Voltage — A reference voltage used to describe batteries, modules, or systems (i.e., a 12-volt or 24-volt battery, module, or system).

Overcharge — Forcing current into a fully charged battery. The battery will be damaged if overcharged for a long period.

Peukert Effect- The Peukert value is directly related to the internal resistance of the battery. The higher the internal resistance, the higher the losses while charging and discharging, especially at higher currents. The faster a battery is used (discharged), the LOWER the AH capacity. Conversely, if it is drained slower, the AH capacity is higher

Plates — A metal plate, usually lead or lead compound, immersed in the electrolyte in a battery.

Power - is the product of voltage and current and is measured in Watts. Power over time is usually defined in Watt-hours (Wh), the product of the average number of watts and time. Utility usually bills are usually in per kilowatt hour (kWh), which is 1,000 watt-hours.

Rated Battery Capacity — The term used by battery manufacturers to indicate the maximum amount of energy that can be withdrawn from a battery under specified discharge rate and temperature. See battery capacity.

Self Discharge - is a measure of how much batteries discharge on their own. The Self-Discharge rate is governed by the construction of the battery and the metallurgy of the lead used inside. Batteries that are stored for long periods will eventually lose all their charge. Self discharge varies considerably with battery type, age, & temperature. It ranges from about 1% to 15% per month Batteries self-discharge faster at higher temperatures. In general new AGM batteries have the lowest, and old industrial (Lead-Antimony plates) are the highest self discharge rates. A major cause of batteries failure is caused by being stored in a partly discharged state for a few months. A "float" charge should be maintained on the batteries especially if they are not used.

Series - a connection pattern placing module or batteries in a string so that current flows from positive to negative through each component. The current in series wiring remains the same as that of a single module, while the voltage is added.

Specific Gravity — The ratio of the weight of the solution to the weight of an equal volume of water at a specified temperature. Used as an indicator of battery state-of-charge.

Starter Battery - have many thin lead plates which allow them to discharge a lot of energy very quickly for a short amount of time. They do not tolerate being discharged deeply, as the thin lead plates needed for starter currents will degrade quickly under deep discharge and re-charging cycles. Most starter batteries will only tolerate being completely discharged a few times before being irreversibly damaged.

Starved Electrolyte Cell — A battery containing little or no free fluid electrolyte.

State-of-Charge (SOC) — The available capacity remaining in the battery, expressed as a percentage of the rated capacity.

Storage Battery — A device capable of transforming energy from electric to chemical form and vice versa. The reactions are almost completely reversible. During discharge, chemical energy is converted to electric energy and is consumed in an external circuit or apparatus.

Stratification — A condition that occurs when the acid concentration varies from top to bottom in the battery electrolyte. Periodic, controlled charging at voltages that produce gassing will mix the electrolyte. See equalization.

Sulfation — A condition that afflicts unused and discharged batteries; large crystals of lead sulfate grow on the plate, instead of the usual tiny crystals, making the battery extremely difficult to recharge.

Temperature affect on Batteries - COLD Battery capacity is reduced as temperature goes down, and increased as temperature goes up. This is why your car battery dies on a cold winter morning, even though it worked fine the previous afternoon. If your batteries spend part of the year in a cold area, the reduced capacity has to be taken into account when sizing the system batteries. The standard rating for batteries is at room temperature - 25 degrees C (about 77 F). At approximately -22 degrees F (-27 C), battery AH capacity drops to 50%. At freezing battery, capacity is reduced by 20%. Capacity is increased at higher temperatures - at 122 degrees F, battery capacity would be about 12% higher.

Temperature affect on Batteries - HEAT While battery capacity at high temperatures is higher, battery life is shortened. Battery capacity is reduced by 50% at -22 degrees F - but battery LIFE increases by about 60%. Battery life is reduced at higher temperatures - for every 15 degrees F over 77, battery life is cut in half. This holds true for ALL types of Lead-Acid battery, sealed, gelled, AGM, or industrial.

Thermal run-away - is a very dangerous condition that can occur if batteries are charged too fast. One of the byproducts of Gassing are Oxygen and Hydrogen. As the battery heats up, the gassing rate increases as well and it becomes increasingly likely that the Hydrogen around it will explode. The danger posed by high Hydrogen concentrations is one of the reasons that batteries be installed in separate, well-ventilated areas.

Vented Cell — A battery designed with a vent mechanism to expel gases generated during charging.

Voltage - is a measure of the electric potential difference between two points; usually expressed as volts (V). Lead-Acid batteries supply about 2.14 volts per cell (12.6 to 12.8 for a 12 volt battery) when fully charged.

Wet Shelf Life — The period of time that a charged battery, when filled with electrolyte, can remain unused before dropping below a specified level of performance.
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FollowupID: 503601

Follow Up By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:58

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:58
What is a AGM...

About Batteries


What is a AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat )Battery?

The newer type of sealed nonspillable maintenance free valve regulated battery uses "Absorbed Glass Mats", or AGM separators between the plates. This is a very fine fiber Boron-Silicate glass mat. These type of batteries have all the advantages of gelled, but can take much more abuse. These are also called "starved electrolyte.&: Just like the Gel batteries, the AGM Battery will not leak acid if broken.

What are the advantages of the AGM battery?

The advantages of AGM batteries are no maintenance, sealed against fumes, hydrogen, leakage, or non-spilling even if they are broken, and can survive most freezes. AGM batteries are "recombinant" ¨C which means the Oxygen and Hydrogen recombine inside the battery. These use gas phase transfer of oxygen to the negative plates to recombine them back into water while charging and prevent the loss of water through electrolysis. The recombining is typically 99+% efficient, so almost no water is lost. Charging voltages for most AGM batteries are the same as for a standard type battery so there is no need for special charging adjustments or problems with incompatible chargers or charge controls. Since the internal resistance is extremely low, there is almost no heating of the battery even under heavy charge and discharge currents. AGM batteries have a very low self-discharge rate (from 1% to 3% per month). So they can sit in storage for much longer periods without charging. The plates in AGM's are tightly packed and rigidly mounted, and will withstand shock and vibration better than any standard battery.


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FollowupID: 503602

Follow Up By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 00:11

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 00:11
Now.....

I also agree with all of the above.

AGM batteries will accept 20 to 25% of their capacity in charge.

Please feel free to check with Fulliver about this or any other AGM manufacturer.

The thread was about charging and using power at the same time not what AGM's accept.

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FollowupID: 503603

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 08:02

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 08:02
Got a data sheet from a manufacturer to support the above?
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FollowupID: 503625

Follow Up By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 09:06

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 09:06
Good Morning Mike,

Fullriver is C5 check their data.

Lifeline is C4 check their data.

One thing I heard from one of my customers which you may find interesting is that Alan from Piranha after spitting the dummy about my new BiSolator told him the Piranha system will 100% fully charge their 80 a/h spiral cell AGM in just one hour. Yes 1 hour fully charged to 100% after running it down camping with a fridge.

Have a good one.

Regards

Derek.
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FollowupID: 503635

Reply By: Mainey (WA) - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 18:02

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 18:02
Vinnie,
yes, just as others have said...

However,
connect the Generator / charger and run in the mornings - NOT the night.

Fridge like angle/wayko uses probably 3ah during the day and much LESS at night, so even with added lights they may still use less power at night.

When you run the "charger" during the MORNING you start the day with a FULLY charged battery when it's NEEDED to run all day and all night, with-out hassles.

If your using 4ah and replacing 10ah your not going to get flat battery syndrome.
AnswerID: 242566

Reply By: Mike Harding - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 19:52

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 19:52
Probably.

It depends on your charger. My K-mart $100, 15 amp constant current charger will ramp itself up to 17V or so in order to maintain the selected charging current - your fridge etc may not like this. Establish what your charger does first.

Mike Harding
AnswerID: 242591

Follow Up By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 21:43

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 21:43
Mike

K-mart, come on please !!!

They don't even support the 4wd industry.

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FollowupID: 503577

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 22:00

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 22:00
Doesn't matter if it's from the Reject Shop; he should not be told it's OK to do as he asked without an understanding of the charger he is using.

Mike Harding
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FollowupID: 503580

Follow Up By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:47

Saturday, May 26, 2007 at 23:47
'if it can produce more amps then you are using so that you are gaining power and not loosing it. '

Mike, too much time in the lab hey....

This one may be a problem....
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FollowupID: 503599

Follow Up By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 00:22

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 00:22
Mike the Dynasty UPS12-310 is a standby battery for banks and computers.

UPS12-310
Valve Regulated Lead Acid Battery
for UPS standby power applications
12V 88 AH @ 20 hr rate,
12V 330 watts/cell @ 15 min. rate

C5 rate. In other words 20% charge rate v/s capacity = 17.6 amps per hour.

Why are you testing bank SLA's ?
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FollowupID: 503605

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 08:03

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 08:03
I am aware of that Derek. I bought 3 of them secondhand for $50 each and use them for bush work - I'm not testing them.

Mike Harding
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FollowupID: 503626

Follow Up By: Maddmav - Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 08:29

Sunday, May 27, 2007 at 08:29
Many Thanks Derek & Mike

I feel after reading your replies I can graduate with honours from the information you both have contributed.

I definately have an answer to my queestions and as this site always does for me -- helps.

No really!! many thanks fellas

Vinnie
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FollowupID: 503631

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