Mike Harding-shooting and youth programs

Kim,

The local sports store down here (Gun Shop) got some bumper stickers made up - he's right into Vic Field and Game - stickers read, "Kids that fish & shoot don't deal and steal" - more honest words have never been spoken.

Keep trying with your ideas!

Hi Kim, thank for the update. Sorry I haven't been in contact but I have been off work all week feeling very sorry for myself with a stinking cold!

I'm not surprised by the response, there is a perception amongst city dwellers (often seen on this forum) that "firearms are bad" and it's going to be difficult to overcome that. Hell! My last "girl friend", a (left wing) senior civil servant didn't even think we should have an army. She was horrified to discover I owned firearms - never destined to last was that relationship :)

Maybe an approach to clubs which may have some like-minded members; fishing, 4WDing etc?

In a stroke of brilliance I deleted all Ex Oz posts so no longer have your number! Could you e-mail to "mike_harding@fastmail.fm" please Kim.

Mike Harding

Everyone

I need enlightenment on this subject, because I am obviously 'missing' something.

Given Facts:

(1) The firearm were invented as both an Defensive & Offensive weapon of lethal force in the arena of waged warfare.

(2) The projectile it discharges is designed to , kill, maim or injure what ever it strikes - never to provide an orgasm.

(3) It projects a sense of aggression, power, control, confidence into the holder of such a weapon.

(4) In the absence of the aforementioned arena of waged warfare, the sporting area was invented to keep ones skills with firearms at the cutting edge so to speak.

(5) The Firearm has been readily adopted as both a personal aggressive/self defence weapon of choice in the civilian arena.

(6) The Firearm was/has been used as a tool to collect/obtain sustenance to sustain life.

(7) The firearm is also used to destroy declared vermin/feral pests

Debate:

when

(a) there is no state of warfare declared

(b) stable government, and rule of law exists

(c) the defence Forces provide all the firearm training/playing one could wish for (and time off the streets to prevent dealing & stealing)

(d) the civilian authorised authority (Police) provide aggressive & defensive lethal and non lethal force

(e) Food and sustence is provided in abundance.

(f) Pests are destroyed by licenced contractors

What is the driving need to get out there and play with an object that issues nothing but lethal force out of the end of it.

Now before you get all excited and start labelling me as a 'whatever' I must admit the following:

(i) Born and raised in the goldfields of WA shortly after WWII where our diet was a large proportion of 'under ground mutton' collected at the point of a .22 rifle

(ii) Actively involved in the eradication of declared vermin from farming areas using firearms

(iii) Some time in the Army including a 'holiday' in Sth Vietnam

(iv) Govt employment ever since (iii) where I am issued with and constantly surrounded by firearms with mandatory handling and 'use of ' re-certifications.

Conclusion:

I am all 'gunned out' and cannot understand peoples fascination with these things other than to experience the above mentioned perceived sense of aggression, power, control and confidence.

When there is someone else 'out there' with one of these things loaded and waving same around in your direction it changes your whole outlook on firearms

Makes you wish they hadn't been invented.

Hi

As this is a 'public' forum I'll have my 2 penneth: was it the NRA (USA) that came up with the putrid idea of promoting gun use/interest/ownership through the Scouts?????? They'd better not try to promote them through a troup my grandchildren attend! I'm going to draw their attention to this - if its an overt approach I'm sure they'll be told to get lost - if it's covert - who knows!

How low can you go!!!!! and for purely pencuniary advantage - the advantage of Mr Smith, Mr Wesson and Mr Winchester et al.

Happy days

Geo

Gday Kim,
I took my son to scouts the other day to see if he liked it.....he reckons it was alright but a bit boring, he said "I learn more and have heaps more fun with you out bush. eg after making a flying fox, we use it.....not stand back and say it would be good fun if the insurance company would let us go on it!
Bring in shooting and some more fun stuff to scouts and they will probably get more kids involved and off the streets.
I learnt to throw a javelin and shoot a bow at school, it never turned me into a head hunter.
Good to see someone trying to do something to keep kids lifes interesting.
Good Work
Cheers

Personally I think that the Scout movement shouldn't advocate the use of firearms, but in fact the Cadets should be approached.

Cadets already have firearm training that is approved for minors, therefore maybe try the local Cadet organisation for a more readily accepted youth firearm use program. You may have better luck.

Cheers Kev

Kim,

It really saddens me that in this day and age, just because I own and enjoy using firearms, I am tagged as a redneck by the media. In reality I have worked in both Commonwealth and NSW government jobs that have required me to be certified to use, if necessary, certain "Prohibited weapons". Weekend before last I was in Queensland at a Sporting Shooters complex along with 167 other shooters. and despite all the "killer" guns that were at the venue, no one even got a shoulder bruised far less injured from the dischage of any firearm. Between us we fired probably 35000 - 40000 shotgun shells. So much for guns killing people.

My Dad, God rest his soul, spent 3 1/2 years in the Changi Motel after the fall of Singapore and I am sure he turns in his grave every time some do gooder tells us we should not have firearms in society. Seems that licenced firearms owners are veing tagged with a "redneck" brush despite the fact repeat FACT, that only a miniscule % of any firearms offences are (in Aust at least) ever committed by a licenced shooter using a registered firearm.

Enough of my soapbox.

Enjoy your day

Cheers

Shooting and archery are fine sports that cater well for men and women with disabilities too.

I guess many people would be surprised that women are equals in these sports and demonstrate that it is all about mental discipline in the quest for excellence. Consider the gold medals won by Aussie.

Shooting is strongly regulated and rifle ranges have very safe. It is a non-discriminatory sport.

I am not presently into competition shooting although I once was and I can assure all that the shooting clubs are very social and welcoming for both women and men.

It is probably a poor analogy in some respects however there are people out there who would ban fourbys and caravans if they had their way. Others want to ban people from different cultures.

Some have mentioned the scouting movement. Just as an observation, the litigious nature of some parents and the community has removed most of the 'fun' activities and pursuits for boys and girls, young women and young men. Then there are those who promote hatred against masculinity as though it were some disease. The Scouts no longer carry a camping knife, a small axe, or even a walking staff for that matter! The school children no longer play chasing games. There are those who would report kids to authorities if they climb trees in parks.

There are narks everywhere, but as regards competition shooting, it is a lawful activity and it is already over-regulated. Despite that, the sport continues to be a good day out and a fun social outlet for many.
If the complainers really want to help young people, what about lending some practical support? It does not surprise me at all that the serial moaners and litigants in my suburb are never seen helping out through community work, but they do waste the time of those who do.

Frankly I am more than tired of the cynicism of politicians who use fear to get votes and a media that dumbs and promotes sensationalism. It is most concerning how intolerant Australians have become, especially over the last twenty years.

EV700

Well I have read this thread with interest.

My grand father served as a scout/sniper with the British Army in both the Bore War and 1st World War. As a child I remember my father collecting underground mutton for meals. I have a very clear memory of my father eliminating a predator that had taken a number of my uncles sheep. It was a shot that my uncle was not willing to attempt but my dad made it look easy.

I do not own nor do I have anything other than a passing interest in firearms of any description.

I have been involved with youth camps (school age children boys and girls) through a church organisation for over 30 years. Approximately 25 years ago we installed a rifle range at one of out sites and purchased a number of air rifles. The kids loved it they were closely supervised and strict rules were in place. I imagine shooting clubs operate in a very similar way. The rifle range only lasted a few years as it like many other activities the kids were exposed to were outlawed, usually by insurance companies. Despite the fears of these insurance companies and the worries of parents we have had more injuries playing games inside a hall chasing things like balls and beanbags

Personally I would like the opportunity to show the kids in my youth group a rifle or pistol range. To have these kids shown the power of modern weapons and the necessary safety precautions involved in their use, I believe would be beneficial to these kids.

I actually believe that seeing this, being properly introduced to these tools would reduce the romance which, in the minds of many teenagers, surrounds guns. I believe that coupled with the graphic reports often displayed in modern media, this would reduce the desire to play with what are really very powerful tools. But tools of limited use.

If you don't need a hammer don't buy one but it doesn't hurt to know what it can do.

Having said that there are rednecks out there who own guns. Often the passion with which they defend there right to own a gun, whether they can justify it or not, can be counter productive to the majority of responsible gun owners. It is often also offensive.

Duncs

Hey, I am going to throw my 2.2c (GST icld) in.

Spent 23 years in the Army, fired every thing from a 9mm Browning pistol to 84mm Karl Gustav Anti-tank gun.

I personally found it boring shooting at targets with our rifles but they were the tool of the trade so I did it. I know lots of others enjoyed it and were good at it and got right into it and I respected them for it, but it just wasn't my scene.

One thing I learnt was that guns don't kill people - people kill people and without proper training and respect for weapons then more people will kill people.

I can tell you this - being on a two way firing range as I have been on a couple of occasions really makes you think long and hard about whether you have made the right career decision :-)) I thank God, Buddha, Mommamd and every other spiritual leader out there that I didn't have to use my rifle.

I personally would like to give my kids the opportunity to fire a rifle, so that they can learn how to handle it, respect it and understand the damage it can do - because at the moment they have no idea. All they know is what they see on TV in cartoons and movies and because of that they have become desentisied and don't understand the hurt and pain associated with the misuse of a gun.

Regardless of whether your believe in this subject or not, one thing is for certain if your children aren't bought up to respect life (both human and animal) then nothing will stop them from causing someone else pain.

Karl

Oh by the way - more people are killed by knife related incidents in Australia each year than gun related incidents.

An amusing anecdote related to this very topic occurred in the US. A US Marine Corps General was attempting to introduce firearms training to the local scouting group and was interviewed on the local radio station.

The female radio station employer began to get heated over the topic and claimed that the general was equipping the youth to be gun crazy psychopaths.

His reply ?

He stated " Well Ma'am, you are equipped to be a prostitute but that doesn't automatically make you one !"

Its a pity that there is such a social stigma attached to firearms. I think there is value in Kevs suggestion regarding Cadets. A parent of a child in Cadets, you would expect, is happy for their child to participate in "military" type activities, perhaps more so than a parent who sends their kids to Scouts.

Good luck with your youth programs.

Cheers ... Taz