Deep Cycle...Misinformation or no....
Submitted: Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 11:47
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Member - John L G
I'm almost frightened to ask this after all the posts I've read previously on deep cycle batteries and their merits versus shortcomings however some one may know the answer to this...
After a very poor service life, 18 months, from his deep cycle battery and probably coupled with the fact that the major cranking battery died also, my son was faced with the dilemma of whether he should simply go for two cranking batteries or persist with a deep cycle for house power.
An automotive sparky told me recently that unless you can slow charge the deep cycle, then you are better off sticking with two crankers as they can at least be charged reasonably quickly from a high amp - alternator. This proved the case in my sons 100 series as the deep cycle never seemed to perform as it should with the fridge shutting down after a short time, probably 4-5 hours max ( Engel 29L).
A manual Hirsche type battery switch is fitted and no solar/
generator power for charging is used.
Back to the new purchase and the battery bloke, not the one we purchased the first deep cycle from, categorically stated/advised that a deep cycle was the way to go blah blah blah. Being an eternal cynic I enquired whether the calcium deep cycle he was offering could take a high charge rate as supplied from a vehicle alternator so that topping said battery up would occur when on the road again.
He said absolutely! yes!
This vehicle is always on the move, usually only overnights and
camping for extended periods simply doesn't occur so hoping to regain a full charge on the run is essential.
So the question is, do I trust the battery expert and can some deep cycle batteries receive charge at a higher rate than others?
Phew!! Over to you!
Reply By: Kev M (NSW) - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 12:06
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 12:06
Check out the SuperCharge Allrounder batteries,
They were recommended by Derek and has served their purpose very
well IMHO
Site Link
Cheers Kev
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AnswerID:
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Reply By: ExplorOz Team - David - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 12:15
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 12:15
For years and years I used Deep Cycle batteries - no brand preference just bought whatever I could find at the time (usually in some remote location where brands specifics are difficult), thry typically lasted 2 - 3 years each. Now I have changed to a Full River (I think) 100 A/H AGM battery which is now 12 months old and going great.
As for your second battery dropping out in one day I strongly suspect there is something else wrong in the setup this just should not happen.
As for charge rates of Aux Deep vs Cranking - Battery will take what it can take,
mine worked
well for years and years and we typically got three days between startups, using Engel 50, inverter for computer and camera plus night lights around the vehicle and
camp.
Good luck.
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Follow Up By: Member - John L G - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 13:50
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 13:50
David,
We had the wiring checked when the deep cycle first played up as since I installed the system, was naturally concerned I might have initiated a slow leak somewhere however it checked out ok. This of course was after the first trip we did coming back pretty disappointed having always been a bit of a twin cranking battery sort of a bloke, mainly because of cost perhaps.
We even returned the battery to the supplier and naturally it came back as being ok
but it simply never performed as we expected and I suppose this coupled with the info the Sparky told me after checkking the wiring, led to some pretty serious suspicions all of which run counter to other peoples experience as you state.
Perhaps AGM might be the go in future?? but I'm about to refit to my truck as
well so keen to get it right.
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Follow Up By: Member - Fizz (NSW) - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 17:30
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 17:30
In my years of selling Mobility Scooters, I eventually used Full River exclusively and found them very reliable. Yes, made in China. No, not cheap junk. But beware! There are cheap nasty AGMs on the market.
Note that "Deep Cycle", "AGM" and "Gel" don't all mean the same thing. Genuine gel batteries are a lot dearer and are pretty finniky in regard to charging requirements. Also, some cheap "Gel" batteries are not proper gel at all, but a sort of combination of AGM and gel. I only found out about this when some gel batteries started to leak fluid and I pressed the supplier to find out why. Some genuine Gel are Sonnenschein, MK, and Federal.
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Follow Up By: techo2oz - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 20:24
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 20:24
John,
I'm with David on this one. You say you have had a leckie check out the wiring for shorts or drains, but did they also ensure adequate conductor size?
As has been detailed numerous times on the
forum and also from personal experience, if the wires running to the fridge are not sufficiently large enough (The longer the run the bigger the wire), the voltage drop will give symptoms like having a crook battery. This sort of stacks up with the fact you had returned the battery but it tested okay at one point.
I would expect unless it is a very small battery or you are running the fridge absolutely flat out so it doesn't cycle, you would get much longer than the few hours yours does.
If possible, get a voltmeter and measure voltage at the fridge plug while it is running after a few hours. Then measure voltage at the battery. They should be virtually the same.
Cheers
Peter
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Follow Up By: Member - John L G - Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 at 13:01
Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 at 13:01
Peter,
Good thoughts on wire size and rang my son to check this out. I'm in
Newman at the moment - he's in
Perth.
I really can't remember if we ran heavier cabling to the back of his cruiser or not as there was so much other stuff going on at the time but he seems to think we did. He will have a clamber through the car a bit later today to recheck. I know about the resistance building up in undersize wire as it heats up with current draw but thought we had that right, but as you say it would be sensible to check on this.
Thanks for the input
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Reply By: Redback - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 12:16
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 12:16
Have a look HERE and AND HERE
May help, Baz.
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Reply By: Member - Doug T (W.A) - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 12:27
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 12:27
Wow does time fly, it was 15/10/2005 when I got my Optima Deep Cycle for $385 , it has perfored without a problem , and I have not had problems cooking the cranker since Nov 2005 after I cut the white wire at the rear of the Alternator.
www.optimabatteries.com.au/
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Reply By: Member -Signman - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 12:50
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 12:50
Obviously you're seeking opinions ?? In my opinion- stick with 2 cranking batterys. If you can fit 2 in the same (physical) size, rotate them every 6 months or so.
Also, with 2 crankers- can be used for emergency welding. And maybe one day, hooked up in series to jump a 24v if required.
Been using this system- with solenoid isolator, for many, many years.
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Reply By: Robin Miller - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 13:05
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 13:05
Hi John
There is some sense in what the Auto-Elec said , and is why many people
live happily ever-after with a couple of low cost Exide extremes.
However a standard deep cycle battery should work in your senario and hence
I agree with David in that there is some other factor leading to your poor result.
Deep cycle batteries do have different current acceptance rates, and other
factors such as the cabling and average temperature the battery sees are factors.
Batteries have an internal resistance specification which is a fundamental limit
on there max current if everthing else is right.
But all of those reccomended for cars/boats have a low enough resistance to
be used sucessfully.
Robin Miller
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - John L G - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 14:52
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 14:52
Hi Robin,
I was always a believer in the two standard truck batteries doing the job and never had problems in the past but the tide of deep cylce advocates made me consider the alternative. However, following my son's experience I am even more cynical but I still must consider the possibilty that just perhaps he had a dud on his hands.
Of course if we could get all the advantages of both batteries in the one unit it would be terrific. Your comment on accepting charge is noted and have just spent some time on the AGM website which confirms this.
Thanks for the input
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Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 14:16
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 14:16
The only battery which can be regularly deeply discharged (20% remaining) AND will accept a quick charge is an AGM battery. That's one reason they're becoming so popular.
Be wary of buying a Calcium Battery - they need a higher voltage to charge - the last thing you would need if you are already having charging problems !
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Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 14:18
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 14:18
"So the question is, do I trust the battery expert and can some deep cycle batteries receive charge at a higher rate than others? "
Sure, the Deep-cycle wetcell he sells (by the seashore ?) may accept a charge 10% faster than the average wetcell, but I will be way slower than an AGM - it's just a part of the physics of wetcell deep-cycles.
AnswerID:
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Reply By: Mainey (WA) - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 14:28
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 14:28
John,
Yes, trust the battery expert :-)
There are ‘budget priced’ batteries and then there are ‘real’ Batteries….
I believe yours is a “sealed” (not AGM) Deep Cycle battery.
My 5yo Delkor Calcium Deep Cycle battery has been my Starting battery for 14 months after powering a large fridge/freezer for the previous 4 years.
Any decent Alternator/regulator will charge a DC battery, "IF" the charging, cabling and isolator system are all working perfectly.
John, you posted "After a very poor service life, 18 months, from his deep cycle battery and probably coupled with the fact that the major cranking battery died also, ......."
This indicates the battery charging system is "faulty" or at least "not working correctly" or similar terminology, because if it was working correctly it would fully charge all the batteries.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Member - John L G - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 15:35
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 15:35
Mainey,
Yes, I am inclined to trust the expert as he has been looking after the batteries in my launch for the last ten years in which we use four cranking for the primary engine supply and four calcium for the house supply but of course these are fed with solar and is always held in a topped up state so to speak.
The deep cycle calcium batteries are as you describe - sealed and defintiely not an AGM as he did not consider those wise to place in an engine room with potential heat issues.
My sons cranking battery is between 4 and 5 years old now but was about 3 years old when we installed the newdeep cycle just after he purchased the vehicle. I think as the cranker failed it simply took the other deep cycle with it which is probably poor timing and points to the fact when you do upgrades all the batteries should be of the same age.
Remember this truck has a manual isolator switch which for normal use is left with both batteries "on" so if one fails it will normally take the other with it.
Your experience with the Calcium is pretty positive and many thanks for the input....
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Reply By: chisel - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 17:12
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 17:12
On a related note (and apologies if this if off topic), roughly how many hours of driving would be required to charge a 100 A/H AGM battery from 50% to 90% charge?
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Axel [ the real one ] - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 20:55
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 20:55
Vehicle / alternator output at cruising revs ect ect ??
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Follow Up By: ferris - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 22:51
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 22:51
I believe AGM's will happily accept 20% of capacity per hour or more, conventional deep cycles & cranking batteries around 10% per hour. So in answer to your question 50 to 90% should take around two hours....theoretically.
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Reply By: Member -Dodger - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 17:47
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 17:47
There is some interesting info at this site.
www.fridge-and-solar.net/index.htm
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Follow Up By: Member - John L G - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 17:56
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 17:56
Dodger,
Good site and worth trolling through. Noted the solar units and may be that is an option. You look at the stuff we all expect to run from the car power supply and it's probably no wonder things go dim in the night...
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Reply By: Crackles - Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 18:32
Monday, Jun 25, 2007 at 18:32
You probably answered your own question in the 2nd line John. "poor service life, 18 months, from his deep cycle battery and probably coupled with the fact that the major cranking battery died also"
Anytime one battery is on it's way out it will always drag the other one down or at least starve it of charge as the majority of the power would be going to the battery that's failing. This would also account for the fridge running for such a short period.
For this very reason it is always ideal to replace both batteries at the same time.
I have been using deep cycles mixed with starting batteries for many years getting a minimum of 3 years out of them despite rough roads, winching & regular deep discharges with the fridge so 18 months is far too short.
If you were only driving a short distance during the day I'd say the wet cell deep cycle would not be suitable for your needs but if you
camp for no more than 2 nights in one spot then drive over the next day then a wet cell should have plenty of time to recharge.
Of course the other factor everyone seems to have forgotten is the quality of the battery. Some cheaper brands would be lucky to last 18 months anyway. What brand batteries was he running??
Cheers Craig..........
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Follow Up By: Member - John L G - Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 at 11:51
Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 at 11:51
Crackles
My thoughts too and consider the previous deep cycle failure along with the cranking battery in what you describe as a major contributing factor.
As to the brand of battery, I have no idea though think it cost him about $140 wholesale, but certainly not a commonly known brand.
Big Mistake methinks...
Cheers John....
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Reply By: Sand Man (SA) - Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 at 00:23
Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 at 00:23
John,
There are three factors not yet mentioned you may wish to take into consideration.
Firstly, a good quality "smart" Isolator will give the best protection and operation of both Primary (starting) and Secondary (auxiliary) batteries. The idea is to keep the two batteries electrically isolated, so that the draining of one will have no impact on the other.
Secondly, an AGM deep cycle battery as the Auxiliary is no doubt the best option, but they are more expensive to purchase and have a larger footprint so may bit more difficult to fix in a vehicle's engine bay. The AGM battery will accept a full charge from the alternator and much quicker than a normal "wet cell" deep cycle battery.
Thirdly, any battery used as an auxiliary power source, especially for running a fridge, should be protected from excessive draining by a low voltage cutout.
I learnt this the hard way, destroying two batteries, one an expensive Orbital AGM. Some fridges, such as Waeco, have built-in low voltage cutout mechanisms but I believe they generally have three settings, one at least which is too low. Other fridges, like my Engel, perform so
well on lower power that they will suck every last volt from the battery. Do this a couple of times and the battery will not recover. Therefore a low voltage cutout (the Protecta brand is about $30) is a sound investment and will disconnect the fridge, (or whatever) from the battery, if the voltage drops below 11.6V, or about 20% state of charge. This is the level that a deep cycle battery can be taken down to without damage.
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Follow Up By: Member - John L G - Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 at 12:45
Tuesday, Jun 26, 2007 at 12:45
Sand Man
The smart isolator you mention I think is a very sensible idea and obviously the isolator of choice now, however being old school and watching the dollars at the time of install along with all the other stuff we were cramming into this vehicle at the time, we went for a manual switch which has always served us
well in the past.
The low voltage cutout though I would reckon to be an absolute winner and think that may be installed sooner rather than later when we make a final choice of battery type and the more I read here, the more the AGM seems to win the day.
Many thanks for your thoughts
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