Interesting article

Submitted: Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 15:19
ThreadID: 47231 Views:3657 Replies:14 FollowUps:27
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I hope I'm not breaching some sort of copyright by posting this info....which I have found on the Internet. It covers a few issues which have cropped-up from time to time.

I have never owned a small capacity, high-tech type diesel....only Nissan 4.2s and now the Chev 6.5 V8.

What I have always found is that these older style engines DO need a decent warm up, before even attempting to drive off, even at a modest/slow pace.

Many other people have said that diesels shouldn't be warmed up, but just started and driven....HARD if need be.

Anyway, at the risk of stirring the pot....have a read of the following:

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OIL THICKENING IN LIGHT WEIGHT DIESEL ENGINES

by Lou Achterburg, Castrol Technical Services Manager

From time to time we encounter instances of excessive oil thickening in light weight diesel engines. While the factors which contribute to this condition are many and varied the obvious culprit in the minds of motorists is the oil itself, which is in reality the least likely cause of the condition.

High performance engine oils marketed by the major reputable oil companies have been developed to the point that in heavy duty diesel highway engines 40,000km service intervals are not unusual and the oil is still in reasonably good condition.

This exact same lubricant, usually an sae 15w/40 meeting at least api cf4/sg, can not go to 5,000km in a light diesel engine without significant thickening and deterioration.

OPERATING CONDITIONS ? WARM UP IS CRITICAL

The major difference in oil performance is due not only to differences in engine design but mostly due to operating condition. A diesel engine does not achieve combustion efficiency until it reaches operating temperature which usually takes 20 to 30 minutes of running. During this warm up period incomplete combustion deposits excessive quantities of carbon and soot on the cylinder walls where it is collected and absorbed by the dispersant additive in the oil. Frequent stop-start, short trips and periods of idling also increase the moisture contamination of the engine oil.

HOW IT HAPPENS

As most light weight diesels are not spectacular performers, most people tend to drive them hard through the gears, which leads to over fuelling and further contamination of the oil. The combustion by-products from a petrol engine are volatile and can be driven off once the engine is run at full operating temperature of a period of time.
However, the combustion by-products form a diesel engine cannot be driven off by engine temperature and as such are totally accumulative.

THE EFFECTS ON YOUR ENGINE

This build up of combustion residue eventually leads to the oil becoming very thick at cold start up so that it does not flow through the engine correctly and causes increased wear rates. The excessive moisture levels combine with the soot and carbon in the oil producing sludge deposits especially in the valve cover.

OTHER FACTORS TO CHECK

Other factors that contribute to oil thickening are:

Starting with a high viscosity oil - i.e. Sae m20w/50 should not be used.
Using an oil of lower performance level - i.e. Api sf/cd is totally unsuitable.
Engine running too cold due to faulty thermostat or even worse, no thermostat at all.
Faulty injectors or fuel pump set incorrectly
The way to head off these problems is to ensure a good quality brand name sae 15w/40 of at least api cf4/sg specification is used eg Castrol RX Super.

And the oil and filters are changed every 5,000km.


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Reply By: Sand Man (SA) - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 15:42

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 15:42
Interesting article Bill.

I liked the comment re "reputable oil companies".

Boy is that an oxymoron statement or what:-))
Bill


I'm diagonally parked in a parallel Universe!

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AnswerID: 249860

Reply By: Willem - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 15:44

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 15:44
William

The article doesn't say Wwhat constitutes a Lightweight Diesel engine?

So we are none the wiser....lol

Cheers
AnswerID: 249861

Follow Up By: Wayne-o (Pilbara WA) - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:04

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:04
a 3.0ltr would fit that category....lol
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:09

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:09
Anything under 10 litres would be my interpretation, Willie.......
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Follow Up By: Willem - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:31

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:31
>This build up of combustion residue eventually leads to the oil becoming very thick at cold start up so that it does not flow through the engine correctly and causes increased wear rates.<

I wonder just what the percentage of extra wear would be over the life of 500,000km of an engine.??? Probably miniscule and not worth worrying about.
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Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 20:12

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 20:12
This article explains why the CEM flush can remove so much crud from a "lightweight" diesel even after low mileages.

I think it's generally accepted that stop-start running any engine, petrol or diesel, will lead to much dirtier oil than an engine that never cools such as a taxi engine.

It's also interesting that the diesel can't purge contaminants like a petrol engine will given a good long highway run.

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Reply By: Member - TasGareth (TAS) - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:17

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:17
Thanks for sharing the article with us Roachie, certainly will changed the way I look after my light diesel.
Must admit I am a start her up and let er warm up person. Just something I have always done without questioning.
AnswerID: 249868

Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:20

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:20
Roachie,
That article is dated almost as much as the diesels it talks about. I remember downloading it for the original Prado email group about 5 years ago. It pre-dates Common Rail Diesels. But what it says is true if you own an older indirect injection diesel like the previous Hilux, and also holds true for 6 cyl diesels like the 2H,1HZ and 4.2 Nissan.

I reckon "lightweight" refers to anything thats not a semi.
AnswerID: 249869

Follow Up By: hl - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:26

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:26
Hi,
Yes, that article seems a bit old. It doesn't even mention a major cause of soot contamination of oil in the newer engines, which is very heavy EGR.
Cheers
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FollowupID: 510920

Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:57

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:57
My Toyota handbook for 75 series says that you are ready to drive away as soon as the engine is running.
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Reply By: Member No 1- Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:24

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:24
i use shell oils...so it doesnt affect me
AnswerID: 249872

Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:39

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:39
" A diesel engine does not achieve combustion efficiency until it reaches operating temperature which usually takes 20 to 30 minutes of running."

Hehehe Don't tell the old farts in the caravan parks..........
AnswerID: 249874

Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 17:00

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 17:00
Sounds like that was written by someone in a country where it is winter all year round ! If the thermostat is working then normal operating temp of the engine is reached within a few minutes.
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 17:08

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 17:08
G'day Kiwi,
I guess it depends where and how you measure the "operating temperature". I have fitted a oil temp gauge. It takes a good 20~30 minutes of driving at highway speed to get the oil temp up to 60~80oC. Around town at low engine speeds (typically less than 1500rpm), the gauge virtually doesn't even move above it's 40oC starting point.
However, the coolant temp does rise a bit quicker. Not to be confused with seeing the factory gauge get up to it's "normal" position. From my experiences, that occurs when the actual coolant temp is about 50oC (on both my previous 4.2TD and also on the Chev 6.5). However, the normal coolant operating temp of around 75oC isn't achieved until about 15 minutes of highway driving.
Around town, a big donk just doesn't get hot enough in my opinion. That is why I now have a cheap dunnydoor for driving around town and save the Chev-nissan for longer trips.
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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 17:31

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 17:31
Interesting to hear you say that Roachie.

Vehicle / engine manufacturers usually try very hard to get rid of heat not retain it. The rear cylinders rely almost totally on liquid cooling as they don't' get much air flow back there. You are correct of course to mention the oil temp as one of the big jobs that oil is there for is cooling. Oil coolers are very important and they don't use any thermostat type devices to maintain a regulated 'running' temperature for engine oil. In snow and ice territory other then using winter fuel not much is done to keep the oil temperature up but you may well use a blind in front of the water radiator. In normal (not winter) conditions, as soon as you can rev easily without blowing smoke or the engine stuttering and the water temp is mid range then you are ready to run. My 75 series Toyota handbook even says that as soon as the engine is running you are ready to drive away, no mention of water temp at all.

I have heard that in Japan some people who visit the ski fields do not like to get into a cold car at the end of the day so they leave the car in the car park with the engine idling all day long (don't know if that's true or not).
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Follow Up By: madfisher - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 21:40

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 21:40
That would be a good way to glaze a diesel up. Heard of a dozer that was left runing over a long weekend and the engine was stuffed. On another note had a engineer mate who was parinoid about keeping his oil temp up, maybe thats why diesels that are driven hard often last longer than one thats driven gently.
Cheers Pete
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FollowupID: 511026

Reply By: jeffwa - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:59

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 16:59
So do you warm it up or drive it straight away, I'm not sure if it's just me or did it not actually answer the question?

I used to warm it up, but since reading a lot of stuff on this forum I now start it, let it run while I put the kids in the car then drive off slowly and wait until it get's up to temp to give it curry.
AnswerID: 249878

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 17:19

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 17:19
Jeff,
I suppose it depends on what sort of diesel vehicle you drive. I know the newer diesel (commical rail and direct injenction etc) all say that you start and drive....and I'm not here to say anything against that.

What I am saying is that it goes against everything I've learnt over the years. You probably already know, but I am an old fashioned fart and I still believe in the old adage about there being no substitute for cubic inches. I'm not looking for an argument and I fully realise that there are 2.5 litre diesels out there today that would run rings around my old 6.5 chevvy motor in terms of both power output and economy....(but I'm yet to be convinced about longevity!!!)

With the 6.5 (as somebody else said recently about their similar motor), when I start it up it sounds like somebody banging a hession bag full of hammers against a brick wall for the first 20 seconds!!! If I try to drive off sooner than about 1 minute it sounds like the tappets are gunna come out from their hiding place and grab me by the gonads and thrash me to within an inch of my life!!!!!!! hahahaha

I have no issue with starting her up and then proceeding to switch on the air compressor, ipod/radio, buckle-up etc etc before heading off.
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Follow Up By: jeffwa - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 17:32

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 17:32
My old Rocky used to be like that haha, if you tried to drive off before it had warmed up you really thought something was going to shot out of the bonnet. :-) Even at 1500rpms it used to sound terrible for the first few minutes.

The surfs not too bad with the 3.0L in it, but I've noticed now it's getting closer to the 200k mark on really cold mornings it rattles off down the street a bit. Good as gold by the second corner, just noticeably "rattlier".

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FollowupID: 510941

Reply By: That Troopy Bloke (SA) - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 17:50

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 17:50
Maybe I'm a cynic, but it smells a bit like an advertorial to me.
Do Castrol actually make a diesel oil heavier than 15w/40?

Cheers
Glenn
AnswerID: 249885

Follow Up By: Member - Pesty (SA) - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 18:46

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 18:46
Oh come on Glenn, how could you read that into it LOL
Roachie is worried because he has been warming his up for 30 minutes for years.
The 6.5 will have everyone one up with him, they will be able to hear it clack in Leigh Creek.
Oh brother the caravan parks are just gunna love him early in the morning when he gets to the nomad stage towing a wobbly box.
Mine is glazed up enough from the work i do with it without idling it too long.
Usually a few minutes while getting things organized.

Cheers Pesty
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FollowupID: 510951

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 18:50

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 18:50
Yeh, sorry Glenn, I should've removed any and all reference to Castrol.

I actually found the article on a website, while researching for a good price on one of those fuel filter adaptors to convert my standard unit to a CAV type. The site was www.hiflo.com.au/fuel_filtration.cfm

I certainly have no financial or other sort of interest in Castrol

Cheers

Roachie
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FollowupID: 510952

Follow Up By: That Troopy Bloke (SA) - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 19:16

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 19:16
Sorry Roachie, I wasn't trying to infer that you were pushing Castrol's barrow for them. I'm sure they are a big enough outfit that they can get by without your help:-)
I was on about the statement by Mr. Achterburg.
"The way to head off these problems is to ensure a good quality brand name sae 15w/40 of at least api cf4/sg specification is used eg Castrol RX Super"

Just seems a convenient way to flog their own product.
That's where the article loses credibility with me.

Cheers
Glenn
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Follow Up By: Skippy In The GU - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 22:08

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 22:08
Hi Roachie,

I just brought one of those fuel filter adaptors for me Patrol yesterday.
I only paid $110 from Adelaide truck spares on Regency Road. that was my price.
I buy most of my oil and filters for my truck there.

Hitech diesels sell the replacement filters for about $4.00 each where at ATS sell them for $6.00 or so each.
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FollowupID: 511039

Reply By: Member - Axle - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 18:46

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 18:46
HAHaHA, Phil got it in one!!, "" old farts in caravan parks", Warm her up for 1/2 hr, They know what their doing!! HAHAHAHA.

Cheers Axle.
AnswerID: 249894

Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 20:08

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 20:08
Axle,
you've restored my faith in this forum - didn't think anyone noticed what I was getting at - all those older folk who start up their diesels and run them for ages before taking off - smoking out and waking all around them...........
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Follow Up By: Willem - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 20:47

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 20:47
I lived in a van park in Alice Springs once.

That 20 minute idling was my pet hate and now I avoid Caravan Parks like the plague.

Cheers
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FollowupID: 510993

Follow Up By: Outnabout David (SA) - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 21:01

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 21:01
Now fellas is warraweena considered a caravan park.........might have to warm the 80 up a bit........well my kids reckonI am an old fart sometimes....LOL maybe its because I let gas out my rear exhaust.....
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FollowupID: 511005

Follow Up By: Willem - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 21:09

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 21:09
Yer can take that smelly old 40 series of yours up the other end of the creek....lol

Nah, no caravan park there.....sorry

Cheers
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FollowupID: 511008

Follow Up By: Outnabout David (SA) - Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 at 07:38

Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 at 07:38
Is that the same creek you Patrol owners go up without a Paddle !!!!

Ah the fun begins and it is only a week away.
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FollowupID: 511073

Follow Up By: Willem - Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 at 09:45

Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 at 09:45
Yup, thats the one....lol
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FollowupID: 511106

Reply By: Member - Banjo (WA) - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 20:14

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 20:14
I'm confused as to what's best too.

The 1HZ starts, and continues, relatively rattle free.(330,000km's)

The the 3 litre D4D (13,000km's) rattles just like Roachie says further up the page and sounds scary until it warms up.

So basically I doddle around until the standard temp guage starts to get up near normal temp, then drive to the conditions. Incidentally, the 1HZ gets to that point quicker than the D4D.

Banjo (WA)
AnswerID: 249916

Reply By: Eric Experience - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 22:45

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 22:45
Roachie.

That information is old and applies to old technology indirect injection motors like the H , 2H , nissan4.2 and the Chev .The modern motors have better injection systems but more importantly they have an oil to water heat exchanger, a lot of people mistake these for oil coolers but they are actually oil heaters. About a year ago some one on this forum was advocating using bypass oil filters as a way of extending oil change intervals and I replied that the principal reason we have to change the oil is because of contamination with unburnt fuel, some one else came back and claimed I did not know what I was talking about so its worth posting this article to solve that little bit of misinformation. Thanks for your input into this forum. Eric.
AnswerID: 249956

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 23:17

Friday, Jun 29, 2007 at 23:17
Some good points there Eric.
One other aspect that will no doubt affect oil change intervals (at least on my rig), is the fact that'm running LPG injection too. This is said to have the effect of more efficiently burning close to 100% of the diesel (as opposed to around 75% in an older style, indirect injection diesel engine).

So, presumably, my oil should not get as contaminated anyway, even without taking the bypass filtration system into account. By the way, the reason the bypass system works so well is due to the large, 1 micron filter being able to take out such a large proportion of the soot and other contaminants from the oil.

Cheers mate

Roachie
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FollowupID: 511050

Follow Up By: Member - Jeff H (QLD) - Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 at 00:07

Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 at 00:07
Roachie and Eric,
Interesting post.We now run the last of the TF Rodeos, with the 4JHITC motors.
Booked in for Beaudesert exhaust in two weeks, with dieselgas as soon as we sort logistics.
Oil-wise, I've used Shell 5w40 when away, with 10000km changes. At home, semi-synthetic, 5000 changes. (Reason for 10000 changes when away is that I've found too many isolated sites that have been used as oil dumps.........
Comments, please. (OK ok, opinions are fine).
ps
Sorry to VicWeigans in the floods, eh.
Fire then flood. Bloody unreal. You poor buggers
Jeff.
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FollowupID: 511057

Follow Up By: Rock Ape - Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 at 08:13

Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 at 08:13
The 2h has a oil to water heat exchanger/cooler.

My view is drive engines straight away, they heat up so much quicker. Just keep the revs down and don't flog them till they are up to temp.

If I left my 6.5lt idleing, it would sit half the day before getting warm.

On dozers after first start up of the day, we used to run them at half throttle for 5mins while we walked them to the job, then we would start working them
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Follow Up By: Member - Dale A (VIC) - Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 at 15:38

Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 at 15:38
Ok, now you all have me interested.

I've been thinking for the last couple of weeks of getting one of the cleenoil bypass filtration systems for my Rodeo.
The 3.0lt is a direct injection job, and the service intervals are marked down as being 10k ( 5k extreme conditions ).
Servicing has always been done every 5k because I thought I should, but lately i've been thinking with a bypass filter I might then change to 10 services.

My question is if unburnt fuel is still in the oil as a contaminant and it wont burn or evaporate will this get to a point where it is possibly an issue, hence making my efforts to remove the particle contaminants a waste of time?

Cheers,

Dale
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FollowupID: 511158

Follow Up By: Rock Ape - Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 at 16:08

Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 at 16:08
With the right filtration, centrifuges and heating oil never has to be changed, this is used on many large engines that can have thousands of litres in the system.

They use this + oil analysis to achive this. This takes up a lot of room and they are high quality installations. Big bucks are spent on these as the engines can cost millions.

You would have to cost the installation and ongoing analysis costs to see if it is worth while.

Have a good one
The Ape
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FollowupID: 511161

Reply By: Member - Brad S (SA) - Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 at 02:13

Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 at 02:13
Must be a really old article you've quoted there.
Modern diesel 2.9 - I guess that is light
Oil is B4 spec 0-40W fully synthetic.
Change it every 5000 to 7500 Km.
The stuff mentioned in the article would be like pouring concrete into a modern diesel.
AnswerID: 249972

Reply By: Member - Davoe (Nullagine) - Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 at 07:44

Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 at 07:44
This artilc confirms the handbooks suggestion for warming up a motor which is NOT to idle it for ever as that results in a longer time to reach operating temperature rather to drive steadily until operating temp is reached
AnswerID: 249979

Reply By: Member - Captain (WA) - Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 at 18:00

Saturday, Jun 30, 2007 at 18:00
Hi All,

I think the point about the article is not so much how long you idle it first, but that you need to get it to operating temperature and keep it there to "boil" off water contamination etc.... That's why trucks do last for so long, they are on long runs thus spend most of their time at operating temperature.

By contrast, short drives in diesels (any capacity) usually results in insufficient time to reach operating temp and this is typical of city driving. Will be interesting to see what happens with the trend of diesels in passenger cars that are used for short stop/start driving. Somehow i don't think they will get the engine life one traditionally associates with "truck" diesels. And its little to do with engine size, much more about engine temperature and % of time spent at operating temperature.

Cheers

Captain
AnswerID: 250064

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