Fuel ecconomy Bio Fuel V's Straight Diesel

Thanks for the reply,
Interesting, that you have similar experience using Bio. I thought I was being a good citizen saving the planet, using Bio.
I have since filled up with straight diesel so now down to only 10% Bio. I am heading to Port Stephens this coming weekend so will check ecconomy again.

I didn't see it, but I suspect normal paranoia about anything new, especially from diesel "specialists" who often know nothing about Biodiesel.

Of course there is Biodiesel and Biodiesel - I can make it in my backyard, so quality depends on where you are getting it from.

There are commercial standards and government "enforced" ones too for Biodiesel that are more stringent than dino diesel.

Cheers
Andrew.

Hello Barry,

The post you are talking about was from me, we are a denso service dealer hear in Adelaide.

We service and repair some other Denso products and are not diesel repairers, we however do alot of training with Denso and what I posted before is what we have been trained from Denso in.

I think in the future biodiesel will cause alot of problems for the new engines and when you see data from Denso Japan showing that even after 1000 kilometers with 5% biodiesel it makes youo think twice about using it and no manufacture will warrant damage caused by biodiesel.

Alot is to do with the solvents used the liquify the base oil to make biodiesel.

As I said before if you are going to use it get a written warranty from the biodiesel supplier saying if any damage is caused from their product they will pay the repair cost.......see what there reply will be!

Regards Richard

Well Richard, I have not seen what data from Denso Japan you are talkin about, nor what engines/components they are discussing. I'd be interested in seeing it.

Denso make air con systems don't they? Anyways, I know that some diesel fuel injection systems don't work well with Biodiesel, and Denso gear may be one of the few.

What you say about solvents is difficult to understand. Of course diesel and biodiesel in their own right are solvents. The oil is "liquified" in the normal way solids are liquified - the application of just a little bit of heat! There is another solvent - methanol in most biodiesel production processes, that is used to create a (so called) methoxide agent (or similar) that stimulates the reaction to create the biodiesel. This methanol is not found in the final production biodiesel except in miniscule amounts, as stipulated by the Biodiesel standard in Australia - which happens to be what is used in Europe.

Commercial suppliers of biodiesel do in fact, warrant their product in Australia - examples are SAFF in Adelaide. If it causes damage to your engine they will see that you are properly compensated. Try them out. Call them and see. They are selling a consumer product in a market governed by the Trade Practices legislation of the states they operate in, and are liable.

With the amount of misinformation going around about the subject it is little wonder that Australia is so far behind in the adoption of Biodiesel here versus Europe. Interestingly major oil companies here are buying up almost the entire production of biodiesel in Australia to blend with their standard product because it is better for the environment (burns cleaner), has better lubricating qualities, and can be included in standard diesel up to 5% without affecting compliance with the diesel standards.

In addition to the link above, see The Caltex Site where I quote:
"Consumers can have full confidence in the petroleum products they are purchasing at service stations and know that the ethanol blends sold are fit for purpose in most new and older vehicles, as specified by individual vehicle manufacturers. Manufacturers have also approved 5% biodiesel blends (B5) for general use as a retail fuel."

You are more than likely using it and you don't it!

Cheers,
Andrew.

Andrew,
I asked around the diesel shops at the last 4wd show in Adelaide, and for the sake of the life of a 1HD-FTE injection pump, they all advised me against using biodiesel. It may be different for different vehicles. So its BP diesel from the truck stops for me.

Cheers
Phil

Andrew

We own a VW Polo 1.9L tdi Turbo intercooled CR

And owners manual states the this engine is not suited for the use of Bio-diesel or blends and it's European..

not having a go just making a statement ;-)

Regards

Richard

VW Australia are listing all their vehicles as Nicht Fur Biodiesel...

In Europe that is not the case, and they even have Biodiesel fuel line heating options for Biodiesel in cold climates.

Recently they have added on most of their current models, a diesel particulate filter on the exhaust which they claim doesn't work (thus makes the vehicle underperforming on the clean air stakes) or is actually damaged by Biodiesel.

Biodiesel Forums discussion on the question

Whether yours has this or not I don't know, but there are lots of very happy VW Biodiesel users all over the world!

Cheers
Andrew.

You'll also find the chip you have would have had it's fuel mapping designed on regular diesel, not the higher cetane biosdiesel. I found that after reseting the ECU on the surf I got much better power out of BD 100% then I was getting out of regular diesel. I think the pump timing needs to be retarted slightly or somthing to get the best out of it. Electronically controlled pumps can do this if their computers are reset and clever enough, otherwise it's off to the dyno to get it done manually if you convert full time to BD to get the best milage out of it.

So in short, you can theoretically get more power/economy from BD as it is the equivilent to higher octaine (using ULP terminology), but you would have to re-tune slightly to do so.

And at this time of year up that way different winterisation of all diesel is going to affect performance.

My 100 series 1HZ has been running about 60% on B100 for about 120,000 km.

SAFF have a Mazda ute thingy running B100 that is doing fine.

I can see how it challenges a lot of people's sensibilities, and raises a lot of questions with the manufacturers warranties, but I do it for the environment primarily and the rest has been cream for me - it is generally 2-4c cheaper to boot though I go out of my way to get it.

If you're buying Caltex diesel you'll be getting your 2% Biodiesel anyways, so that will help improve the cleanliness of your vehicle anyway. I understand the other companies have big contracts in place to purchase Biodiesel too - presumably for the same reason.

Cheers
Andrew.

Just correcting a few misconceptions:

Biodiesel can be made from a lot of oil stocks - rape seed, canola, olives, pork bellies and other animal fats - you name it really.

It can be made from waste oils - usually waste vegetable oils (WVO) too.

All of these have various costs - both direct costs and carbon costs. You can't make canola oil without growing the seed and harvesting it, so it takes diesel to do it (for instance). Some companies are offsetting this by planting the equivalent in trees that take up the carbon used in the production, so they offer a truly carbon neutral product.

It requires considerable plant even to work with the WVO - you need to collect it (say from ma and pa fish and chip shops in perhaps 100 litre lots) - a big job. You need to filter it and pay for disposal of the residues (the little bits of fish and chips). You need a reactor and the reagents to make the production work. You need water to clean it. You need electricity to run it all and heat it up. Then you need to distribute it.

With so much pressure on WVO sources and with the reasonably high prices paid for that, as also for the other stocks, you should expect to pay for Biodiesel. Finally, the product is great and a good replacement for diesel, and is used in large public transport fleets in huge volumes (and don't think they haven't done a lot of analysis), so the manufacturers like most of us, ask the price they think the market can handle.

Cheers
Andrew whose experience is that any impact on economy is marginal at best.

BP is another one ...

Site Link

However what they are planning on selling is not Biodiesel ...

Does not conform to the Australian Standard for Biodiesel at all, and serves to confuse the situation more.

Contrary to many people's misconceptions, Biodiesel is chemically “fatty acid methyl or ethyl esters”, and not pure vegetable oils or animal fat and not biomass to liquid fuels or other fuels coming from other chemical treatment of vegetable oils or animal fats.

It is no longer chemically an oil or fat - quite different, although it may be principally from the same source.

Have you actually compared the emission of BD to regular diesel? If so how can you argue that it may not be better for the environment?

Jeff

he dosen't you just have to read a make up your own mine..

:-)

Biodiesel makes no more heat and less deposits... this shows how little information "service advisors" have on the subject and how hard it is to get good information.

Of course the warranty threats can get supported by illinformed service advisors happy to have any hook to hang their hat on.

E10 is another matter... putting Biodiesel and E10 in the same breath shows the ignorance on these subjects.

Toyota "local dealers" - oh yes, they're the ones who leave off the drain plug on my diff, or don't tighten the fuel filter... just to name a few of my most recent experiences with these twits.

for a start I was typing to blackmax11 so no breath! and, you drive A??
no sorry who cares!