Is regular servicing neccessary??????

Submitted: Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 20:16

ThreadID: 47480 Views:3628 Replies:15 FollowUps:21

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dave_c

Gday all,

I recently went and had a look at a 2002 td cruiser for sale. It drove really well and the engine was ticking over beautifully. im thinking at the time, if inspector gives this the ok I'll proceed further. However, when i checked the service book it was almost non existent but the owner welcomed me to ring the service department where car was purchased, as the car has infact been regularly serviced (as indicated on sales add) and all records will be on their computers. So.., home i go and ring i do. Unbelievably, this car has had four services in 195,000kms. two in the last two and a half years. WOW!!. Needless to say my interest ceased instantly. Until...
A mate rang a day later to see how things went. After explaining the above, he said " so...how do you know the engine is no good. What if you were to strip it down and find it in perfect order would you still buy it". i thought he was joking but he was'nt. I said no. why not etc for next ten minutes. End of subject until....
I ran into a well known and reputable diesel mechanic i know. And yep, all the above mentioned. To my surprise he somewhat agreed with my mate saying that if a car has gluggy oil, it only tells him it has'nt beeen serviced for a while. it does not tell him the engine is no good. also said if the car has had an easy life, no towing etc, it COULD still be ok. IF it were cheap and i was a diesel mechanic i might consider taking a punt.
Being in the building trade most my 21 working years, my mechanical no how is a bit like the service history of this car. This has confused me no end.
Are there any mechanics or mechanical minded persons out there that can elaborate on this with their honest views?. Maybe diesel engine builders and oil companies are in the wack up??? haha.
cheers dave

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Reply By: Member - Nick (TAS) - Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 20:26

Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 20:26

Mate, there are plenty of T/D Cruisers out there with good service historys, me I'd not even consider this one.One oil change every 50000kms, not good for any vehicle yet alone a Toyota engine that like 5000kms oil intervals.
Keep looking.

AnswerID: 251221

Reply By: Member - Lance S (VIC) - Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 20:37

Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 20:37

Dave,

I always service my truck every 5,000kms whether i think it needs it or not, that way you are not only just changing your oil and filters but most importantly checking the drive line, suspension, checking for oil leaks and just maintaining your 4wd. I always beleive that if u look after your truck it will look after you.
Wish we had a crystal ball when buying a 2nd hand vehicle, but we either trust our instincts, our local mechanic or both.

cheers, Lance

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AnswerID: 251224

Follow Up By: Member - Bucky (VIC) - Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 08:01

Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 08:01

Bloody hell Lance, ! every 5,000km.
Is that really necessary ?

I use a semi synthetic oil, and do my changes every 10,000 km, and that is all she is ever gunna get.
But like yourself, I too, continuously monitor everything.

I do not flog the vehicle, but I love to work it a bit.
I recon they love it

Cheers Mate
Bucky

FollowupID: 512418

Follow Up By: Member No 1- Monday, Jul 09, 2007 at 07:24

Monday, Jul 09, 2007 at 07:24

oil is cheap ...good insurance i reckon

FollowupID: 512544

Reply By: bob&loz - Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 20:48

Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 20:48

Dave
Has it only had oil changes at the dealer services or has he been changing the oil himself and just getting major services done at the dealer
Bob

AnswerID: 251229

Follow Up By: dave_c - Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 21:35

Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 21:35

gday bob,

he said he never opens the bonnet. dealer does everything. some one will take his word on the good servicing. heads or tails for the next owner i guess.

cheers dave

FollowupID: 512380

Reply By: stefan P (Penrith NSW) - Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 20:50

Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 20:50

It will always be a "punt".....I have had cars with no service history and ZERO servicing from me be ultra reliable, while I have seen the best maintained cars forever be in the work shop. As you said if the price reflected its lack of history you might take the punt, but as it doesn't I would look else where.

Cheers Stefan

AnswerID: 251231

Follow Up By: dave_c - Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 21:39

Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 21:39

gday stefan,

i too have heard of some lucky people. price is 36900 for 2002 gxv 4sp auto. so is relatively cheap but im no mechanic.

cheers dave

FollowupID: 512381

Follow Up By: fisho64 - Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 23:15

Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 23:15

if you get one that is newer than sept 02 you will get the 5 speed auto, a far superior transmission in operation to the 4 sp.

FollowupID: 512396

Reply By: Member - Colin (WA) - Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 21:14

Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 21:14

Hi Dave,

I have an 02 T/D cruiser and do all the easy services myself ( oil filter and diesel filter)and get the 40,000 interval's done by a mechanic . That is when you are supposed to change every fluid and filter. This may explain the service intervals on the one you are looking at , have you tried contacting the previous owner? If you are not sure as stated above keep looking until you find one you are happy with.

Regards
Col

AnswerID: 251240

Reply By: Max - Sydney - Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 21:36

Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 21:36

Dave

You could ask your mate "How do you know the car is ok?"

Its always a gamble and you'd have to strip a lot of bits to check for damage from willful neglect.

When you buy a second hand car, you look for big and small signs that it might be ok - no panel or underbody damage; pedal wear consistent with the odometer reading; evidence of regular maintenance; not too many scratches or dents underneath; no oil leaks from back of engine, gearbox, transfer case, diffs; measure spring heights at each wheel; look for evidence of tyre wear or damage; seek evidence that it may have pulled a boat (and launched it in salt water); wear to carpets etc in rear from heavy loads; noises or pulling when you drive and brake etc etc.

In each case, where you find a deficit, then you make a sensible deduction from the Red Book value, in the hope that you can pay to fix the things that might go wrong soon. If there are too many things wrong, walk away.

If its a perfect car other than the service record, you could choose to knock off $2500 to allow for a full major service, including repack all bearings, replace all fluids, injector strip & clean & diesel tune, 4 wheel alignment and balance 5 wheels, careful inspection for loose nuts etc and take the chance that it will have no major damage.

You could also pay a mechanic to inspect it for you - after all you can probably spot things wrong on houses that the lay person may not.

But - its always true that there is another one out there. If in doubt, don't buy it.

Max

AnswerID: 251245

Follow Up By: dave_c - Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 21:46

Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 21:46

max,

wow, you really know your stuff. if i find one in sydney i may track you down for the inspection. incidentally, how can one tell if a car has towed a boat and launched in salt water.

cheers dave

FollowupID: 512385

Follow Up By: Max - Sydney - Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 11:11

Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 11:11

Hi Dave

Once you have helped teenagers get their first bomb, and spent hours working on them, you get a bit canny! And it years of making all the mistakes too!

Easy to see if its been launching boats - lots of rust around the rear end, especially the bits Toyota did not make eg the towbar, towbar bolts etc. Also run the hand around inside the back bumper and feel for debris caught up there - shells or something.

Its a pain in NSW that you can't get the NRMA to do a basic inspection for you - they would have give a good view on the relevance of the service history.

Good luck
Max

FollowupID: 512444

Reply By: dave_c - Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 22:04

Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 22:04

they must be a pretty good unit if one can get 200,000 problem free kms on 4 services or he is lucky. he is original owner.

AnswerID: 251249

Reply By: Ron George - Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 22:07

Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 22:07

Dave, ask yourself, is that the way you would service your pride & joy... No I thought not. Mate motor Mfgs spend squillions on R&D to work out the best service regime for their motors so you would think they would know, After 30 yrs as a diesel fitter It never ceases to amaze me that some clown will come along & totally ignore their recommendations because THEY know better!!!!
As for gluggy oil not being an indicator to eng condition... That might have a certain ring of truth about it & the motor might be running as sweet as!!! BUT it should be ringing alarm bells loud & clear that there is a very good chance of potential problems down the track. For my money I would give that veh a big swerve 50.000 thou between services is just unbelievable.
Cheers Ron.

AnswerID: 251251

Reply By: Member - Kim M (VIC) - Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 22:21

Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 22:21

Dave

Regular servicing is necessary. I'm surprised you even asked.

Regards

Kim

AnswerID: 251253

Follow Up By: dave_c - Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 22:47

Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 22:47

kim,

what is a stupid question. does more cement in a brickies mix make it stronger. horses for courses.

cheers dave

FollowupID: 512392

Reply By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 22:40

Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 22:40

Fleet serviceing these days is sometimes very slack. I know of a company that tenders to do serviceing on a time allowed basis. If a mechanic finds a fault during the service and uses all the allowed time to fix that fault then the rest of the service is not done !

When the lease on that company vehicle expires it will be sold and the advertisment will say something like "regularly serviced by agent"

How many people know what brand / grade of oil is put into their vehicle when it is serviced ? It's a lottery ! Any used vehicle could have a dodgy service history, you pays your money and takes your chances.

AnswerID: 251256

Follow Up By: fisho64 - Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 23:32

Saturday, Jul 07, 2007 at 23:32

generally businesses that service vehicles wouldnt just put any old oil in a vehicle they service. They might not buy top of the range synthetic or such like, but at the end of the day so long as the oil is the correct grade and type it matters not a bit. Problems come if it is cooked or otherwise abused.
Why would a Fleet Operator allow or encourage his expensive investment to go unserviced for another 10000km for a couple of dollars? Also these vehicles are almost always in warranty so it would not cost to fix a fault you mention?
I hate to say it but people who say that you should only use one brand of oil in your vehicle, and that you risk dire consequences by changing brands are living in fairyland.
If 2 oils meet the required standard i.e CF etc and viscosity, and one is half the price then there is no way the other is going to give twice the protection, no matter what the brand name.
You are obviously entitled to ask what oil is being put into your vehicle, and if you think they are lying or not to be trusted then WTF are they doing putting their greasy mits on your car???
Kiwi this is not aimed at you but customers in general.

FollowupID: 512401

Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 06:55

Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 06:55

Hi fisho64,

I totally agree with your comments. I was pointing out that there is the service you think you get and the service you actually do get. The warranty on most vehicles demands that you have a regular service using specified products and done by a preferred agent but these agents may not actually do what you are paying them to do.

All Oils are not equal. We could go on about this for ever but enough to say that European, Japanese and American engines DO have different MINIMUM standards. Also, some oils can easily go 10,000 or 20,000 km between changes but you will find many people on this forum who will not believe it and change at 5,000 km.
These same people probably moan about a couple of cents increase in the price of fuel but waste heaps on their choice of oil and change intervals. :))

FollowupID: 512416

Follow Up By: fisho64 - Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 23:17

Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 23:17

quite correct Kiwi, all oils are not equal, and I may have been unclear in what I was writing. What I intended to say was that 2 oils that both comply with (say)CF (for a diesel) or SF(for a petrol/passenger vehicle) may cost vastly different sums of money. But if they are both made to the same relevant API standard, while one may be a TINY amount better, your engine will not self-destruct cos another "generic" oil to the same standard was used. If it could be attributed to the oil then the engine must have been teetering on the edge of catastrophy anyway.

Regarding the intervals, also I agree. I had an SOS sample processed on my 1HD-FTE (120,000k's) after 6000ks on the Shell Helix and it came back with soot index <.1% (minimum measurable) similar fuel dilution etc. Even though I had changed the oil at that point anyway I put on the sample label that the oil was still in use, to see if a warning came back, but it was OK. Perhaps now I will just change the filter at that point now.

FollowupID: 512534

Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Monday, Jul 09, 2007 at 08:26

Monday, Jul 09, 2007 at 08:26

Hi again fisho64,

Have you aware of the following thread?

---The oil sold in Japan typically has calcium based detergents in it at
levels of 3000-4500+ppm (parts per million) this is a very detergent oil
compared to a lot of oils formulated for american engines (700-2500+ppm
magnesium based detergents, magnesium based detergent is thermally
unstable at normal working temps of a japanese diesel engine that is why
it is not used in japanese OEM oils) as a side benefit extreme levels of
calcium have a very strong bearing pacifying affect reducing the
bearings susceptibility to chemical attack by its own oil which
contributes to the onset of subsurface fatigue failures.
Synthetic oil per-se is not a fix (or prevention method) you want an oil
with low or no magnesium and preferably in excess of 3000+ppm calcium
based detergents the oils that I know of that meet the above
requirements are:
Caltex Delo CXJ 15w40 (the J is for japanese) mineral oil,
Castrol J-Max 15w40 mineral oil,
Amsoil Marine oil 15w40 synthetic oil,
Amsoil series 3000 5w30 synthetic oil,
I know BP in Europe makes some nice high calcium synthetic diesel oils
also but I don't know names or product codes.
My favorite of the above is the 5w30 amsoil but it is seriously
expensive and unless you are running extended drains supported by
routine oil analysis it is too expensive to drain every 5000km.

FollowupID: 512551

Follow Up By: fisho64 - Monday, Jul 09, 2007 at 09:22

Monday, Jul 09, 2007 at 09:22

no I hadnt seen that, and it is interesting. As you say the extended intervals are really only useful in "economies of scale" in a large engine such as the marine diesels I work with. Engines with centrifugal filters are useful for removing most of the soot. We sample the oils every 1000 hours and an oil change is performed when oil is contaminated or some other indication such as operational requirements.

FollowupID: 512557

Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Monday, Jul 09, 2007 at 13:03

Monday, Jul 09, 2007 at 13:03

Check-out the following site fish;

Site Link

FollowupID: 512579

Follow Up By: fisho64 - Monday, Jul 09, 2007 at 13:45

Monday, Jul 09, 2007 at 13:45

thats a great website thanks Kiwi, Ive got halfway thru it and will finish it tonite, thanks for that!

FollowupID: 512583

Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Monday, Jul 09, 2007 at 14:12

Monday, Jul 09, 2007 at 14:12

Ahh, found the one I was looking for at last. Not the original web site but this will do.

Site Link

FollowupID: 512587

Reply By: dave_c - Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 09:47

Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 09:47

gday all,

you blokes are amazing with your knowledge and time of response. thanks heaps.
Fisho64, can you tell me, or anyone for that matter, what is the 5sp manual box like. there are a few getting around and for a few less dollars. i have mostly driven manual so not fussed on buying if it is strong and reliable

cheers dave

AnswerID: 251288

Follow Up By: Max - Sydney - Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 11:23

Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 11:23

Dave

If I can poke my nose in again. The 5 speed on the 100 series is a reliable box that solves the "bugs" in the same box in the 80 series. My 80s has done 270,000 km, half of it dragging a camper or caravan, and been lots of fun places and no problems except the breather developed an oil leak earlier this year! However, I did the Canning with a mate in a 100 series auto and I reckon I was impressed. Heaps easier to make the right decision about what gear will get you over each dune - just choose high or low range and let the auto do the rest.

Its a lot gentler on the drive line (ie less wear, not to mention no need to replace the clutch) and If I was buying again I'd go auto. However, the manual is perfectly functional & rugged and if its a way to save a few grand on an otherwise good car, go for it.

Max

FollowupID: 512445

Follow Up By: dave_c - Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 11:42

Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 11:42

gday max,

thanks for your input. with your knowledge i think most people here would'nt care much if you stuck your nose in more often.. would you go the 4sp auto over the 5 manual. apparently the 5 auto is the pick but are out of my price range. i wish this was all as simple as laying bricks. thanks again

dave

FollowupID: 512450

Follow Up By: Max - Sydney - Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 17:57

Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 17:57

Dave

If I had my choice and the money I'd go for the auto, but if economics pushed me to the manual I would not cry. Its better than mine and that's been great for 10 years - just have to double declutch into 3rd at times, but then 100 series fixed that.

Good luck
Max

FollowupID: 512484

Reply By: V8Diesel - Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 14:05

Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 14:05

Service interavals are not a giant hoax perpetuated incollusion with every known vehicle manufacturer on the planet.

They are there for a very good reason.

AnswerID: 251322

Reply By: garryk - Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 14:15

Sunday, Jul 08, 2007 at 14:15

As a mechanic for close to 40 years I would not look back at it after walking away
It is not just the engine oil changes that are important
Coolant if not changed when needed will cause corrision , how do you know if the cylinder head is almost corroded thru ?
Radiator blocked ? maybe look ok in cold climate but head north or tow something and trouble
Brake fluid requires regular changing ( it will asorb moisture from atmosphere )
Transmission and diff oils have a limited life
Air conditioner reciever dryers should be changed
Fuel filters protect the fuel injection compenents

Old saying that I first heard back in 1967 as an apprentice " Oil is cheap , engines are expensive "
and yes I have seen many cases where a vechile like this will give a reasonable run despite negelect but it is only a matter of time before it costs big $$$$$
and do you want to be the owner then ?
Garry

AnswerID: 251324

Reply By: Member No 1- Monday, Jul 09, 2007 at 07:27

Monday, Jul 09, 2007 at 07:27

if it hasnt recently had a service have an oil analysis done and check for wear metals...most oil companies do them...

AnswerID: 251446

Follow Up By: dave_c - Monday, Jul 09, 2007 at 19:28

Monday, Jul 09, 2007 at 19:28

gday member no 1,

interesting idea, what does this test determine and is it accurate. who exactly, does the test.

dave

FollowupID: 512628

Follow Up By: Member No 1- Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 at 07:50

Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 at 07:50

we use Caltex...but Shell also do ( well, did we were using them) and i expect others...including after market co's

the test measures all sorts of stuff as per the link
a lot of people dont realise that oil has a high infinity for moisture. Moisture is a major contributor for the formation of acids...acids attack everything including your bearings (acting as sacrifical anodes) etc etc...these minute particles are retained in the oil and are not deposited to the bottom of the sump as one may think, but are actually kept in suspension leading to more wearNtear etc etc as the metals are pushed into the bearings by the oil pump......it compounds from here with the metals getting larger in size etc etc

always take a sample when the engine is warm
sample bottles are or should be readily available from your local oil outlet (not servo) and can be sent via ozzie post to the lab.....make sure your details are exact...the oil does not need to be Caltex brand

as i said up above...oil is cheap insurance

FollowupID: 512720

Reply By: The Fox - Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 at 10:06

Tuesday, Jul 10, 2007 at 10:06

My understanding of the reason for the 5000km service interval for the toyota is method of delivery off the oil to the rear main bearing. Apparently, the oil travels along a spiral groove on the main shaft to that bearing. Once the oil thickens up, the delivery is impeded and the bearings life is much shorter.

Better oils may last longer, but how do you know what type of oils he has been using.

Check with a mechanic who has stripped one of these motors.

AnswerID: 251662

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