Solar and Battery Charge Gurus' .... please advise!!

Submitted: Friday, Aug 31, 2007 at 14:53
ThreadID: 49182 Views:3807 Replies:6 FollowUps:12
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I have recently fitted a SunTech 85w panel, through a 12v 6amp PV Charge Controller . All new and with good heavy cabling.

Its required function is to charge an auxilliary battery, [a SuperCharge 950cca 200mins 14.8vmax] via Anderson plugs, which generally will only be used to power a late model 40l Engel fridge/freezer, when at camp, and an occassional fluoro.

This it "appears" to do quite well, putting in 14.4v with no load from the Engels, on a good sunny day, [in FNQ!]

Likewise, running the Troopy engine gives 14.4v to the Main Battery [Supercharge 760cca 160mins 14.8v max] then through a Redarc Isolator to an Anderson Plug [earthed to the chassis] delivering 14.2v [per the fitted voltmeter] to the Auxilliary battery.

Thusly, I use vehicle charging whilst travelling and run the Engels direct from the vehicle.

At the goldfields. [alleged goldfields, that is !!] I run off the Auxilliary, with the solar panel connected during sunlight hours. It is disconnected after sundown.

At night, the Engels is switched to a low setting [either 2 or 1] and run from the Auxilliary, around 8 hours.

Which, the next morning then reads at 10.5v, via the fitted analogue voltmeter, the lowest limit of the meter !!!!

The Main battery is around 16 months old and the Auxilliary is only about 5 months old.

However, the Auxilliary appears to charge up OK with either system during the day and shows a 'settled' reading of around 12.6 - 12.8v .......via the fitted voltmeter.

BUT, using the trusty multimeter direct to the terminals the reading is only 11.8v !! And the peep-hole indicator is GREY!!

So, I have just now disconnected the Auxilliary from the vehicle system, thinking aha , I've been tricked ... I'm getting this high reading somehow from the Main battery. Nope, it stays the same......

Sadly, I must admit to defeat ......... have I got something wrong here ??? My electrical 'savvy' is not good enough ...... as I mostly camp alone I rely heavily on my vehicle's batteries.

Any and all advice will be welcomed.




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Reply By: Member -Signman - Friday, Aug 31, 2007 at 15:20

Friday, Aug 31, 2007 at 15:20
There is a diode in the solar panel charging circuit??
AnswerID: 259728

Reply By: Member -Signman - Friday, Aug 31, 2007 at 15:21

Friday, Aug 31, 2007 at 15:21
There is a diode in the solar panel charging circuit??
AnswerID: 259729

Follow Up By: Member - Pedro the One (QLD) - Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 21:24

Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 21:24
Thanks, Signman and yes, I believe there is a diode in there !!

AND

Thanks, Signman and yes, I believe there is a diode in there !! LOL

Think I may have been away in the "ironfields" when you called through ........... ???
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FollowupID: 521443

Reply By: Sand Man (SA) - Friday, Aug 31, 2007 at 15:28

Friday, Aug 31, 2007 at 15:28
Sounds to me like your battery is not holding a charge, or the total draw from the fridges exceeds the input from the solar panels.

If you get a reading of 10.5 volts directly across the battery terminals then that battery is dead flat. Even though you then get a reading of 14.4 volts coming in from the solar panel input, it may well be that the battery is "calcified". This means it has been discharged too often and now won't recover enough to hold a full charge.

If there is one "negative" concerning the Engel fridge, it is that the fridge will try to run on whatever voltage it is supplied and because it does not have a low voltage cutout, will drain the battery down to zero, zilch, nada. Taking a deep cycle battery below 30% (about 11.6 volts) a few times and it will become permanently damaged.

Two things I can suggest.

1. Charge the auxiliary battery via an external 240 volt battery charger, then get your battery "load tested" to see if it maintains that charge. This will identify any problems or damage to the battery.

2. Install a low voltage cutout device to protect the battery from ever being discharged beyond the point of practical recovery.

Oh! One other possibility. I'm not familiar with the Supercharge battery you mention, but when you state the rating of 950CCA, this relates to the Cold Cranking Amps of the battery and my guess is that it may not be a deep cycle battery which is rated in Ah. (Amp Hours)

If it is a "starting" battery, it is not designed to provide continuous current draw like a deep cycle battery does and this may well be your problem.
Changing over to a purpose designed Deep Cycle battery would be your best solution in this case. The best deep cycle battery is the AGM type, but limitations in footprint (physical) size may restrict the capacity size that fits inside your engine bay.

Also, running two fridges off the one battery is very demanding on that battery. Each fridge is capable of drawing around 2.7 amps each and the total input from the 85 watt solar panel will probably not be sufficient to maintain a respectable charge on its own.

Good luck with your problem resolution Pedro.
Bill


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AnswerID: 259730

Follow Up By: Sand Man (SA) - Friday, Aug 31, 2007 at 15:34

Friday, Aug 31, 2007 at 15:34
Pedro,

I re-read your post and understand you are only running one fridge (and light) so disregard my comment re the high current draw.

Everything else however is relevant.
Bill


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FollowupID: 521187

Follow Up By: Member - Pedro the One (QLD) - Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 21:44

Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 21:44
Thanks Sandman ...........

>Sounds to me like your battery is not holding a charge, or the total draw from the fridges exceeds the input from the solar panels.,

The first bit, I think / thought .........

>If there is one "negative" concerning the Engel fridge, it is that the fridge will try to run on whatever voltage it is supplied .....etc Two things I can suggest.

1. Charge the auxiliary battery via an external 240 volt battery charger, then get your battery "load tested" .... etc
2. Install a low voltage cutout device ...... etc <

Item 1 : Have done the external charging, peep-hole now green, with a multi-meter reading of 13.08v rested !!
[BUT ............. see my follow-up to Robin below !!]

Item 2 : My next purchase !!!

And thanks for your input on Cranking/Deep Cycle stuff .

I will be following this up with my 'leccy, who DID know what it [the Aux. battery] was required for and advised "this one will do both jobs easily [power the fridge and be a stand-by cranking battery !"] Even though I did have a 'nagging doubt' at the time, I let myself be swayed ........... women also do that to me !!

Again ......... thanks.













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FollowupID: 521450

Follow Up By: Mainey (WA) - Monday, Sep 03, 2007 at 15:50

Monday, Sep 03, 2007 at 15:50
Pedro the One (QLD) posted->
"" I will be following this up with my 'leccy, who DID know what ithe Aux. battery was required for and advised "this one will do both jobs easily [power the fridge and be a stand-by cranking battery !"]
Even though I did have a 'nagging doubt' at the time, I let myself be swayed ........... women also do that to me ""

Pedro, now you know they can't do both jobs.... at peak performance !!
unfortunately you have learnt the 'expensive' way
now you have a spare Cranking battery

However, a good "Deep Cycle" battery can be used as a Cranking battery
my Delkor 80 ah DC was first used as a 'storage' battery for 4+ years and now as my Cranking battery since May 2006, yes it's well over 5 years old now and still works as expected.

When women 'sway' me, I also tend to accept them ... lol
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FollowupID: 521528

Reply By: Bilbo - Friday, Aug 31, 2007 at 18:36

Friday, Aug 31, 2007 at 18:36
Firstly, that regulator seems a bit under-capacity at 6.0 amps for an 85 watt panel.

Theoretically an 85 watt panel will deliver 7 amps at 12 volts. Taking "losses" into account, say 15% loss, that would still only bring it to 5.95 amps, which is only just under the max capacity of your regulator. You may be losing panel amps in heat as the amps can't get through the regulator.

However, I don't reckon that's casuing the problems. I reckon you need a bigger panel(s) for the job. I have a 35 litrte Autofridge that has superior insukation to an Engel and that needs 2 by 85 watt panels to maintain it's low temps - but as a freezer and not just a fridge. When used as a fridge, the 2 panels and the Autofridge will do the job easily.

Which goldfield are you in? If you're around WA, in Laverton or Leonora the panel, battery and the Engel should handle things OK at this time of year - as a fridge, However, as a freezer it could be borderline. If you're up north at all - Pilbara, North Queensland, then the panel is too small and needs another panel.

You need to know the amps used by your Engle in a 24 hour period, i.e amps and duty cycle to see how much power it's using, Then compare this figure with how much power (amps) you're getting from your panel.

If the panel is delivering MORE than is needed to run the fridge within it's duty cycle then yer battery's not holding the excess and it's knackered. At 5 months old, it shouldn't be knackered. Unless as said by others above, it's been flattened once too often during its short life

Also remember that it may be a nominal 85 watt panel, but you won't get that unless the panel is sitting at exactly the right angle to the sun and it's set up to track the sun all day long. You prolly only get about half of that is the panel simply sits on yer roof rack, flat - like mine does. That's why I need 2 panels!

If you need to buy another battery, get an AGM battery. I find they put up with far more abuse than any liquid lead/acid. I've flattened mine many times and it just bounces back.

Bilbo
AnswerID: 259752

Follow Up By: Member - Pedro the One (QLD) - Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 21:55

Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 21:55
Hi Bilbo .............

Thanks also for your input ....... am now looking at increasing my panel capacity ........... and saving for an AGM battery ......of course, this will be subject to me detecting ANOTHER 750 tonnes of iron, as the AUmetal has been somewhat elusive lately [ read non-existant ?]

Am in Far Northern Qld fields .....unfortunately long periods of 'overcastness' have appeared so even less power available now.

Hopefully, I may be able to resurrect my Aux .......

Thanks Pedro

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FollowupID: 521455

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 23:03

Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 23:03
An 85 watt panel will NEVER under any circumstances put 85 watts into a 12 volt battery. You get 85 watts under ideal conditions if charging at 17 volts.

An 85 watt panel will never put more than 5 amps into a battery.
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FollowupID: 521462

Follow Up By: Member - Pedro the One (QLD) - Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 23:14

Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 23:14
Thanks Mike ............

Yep, agree and understand your comment.

Never did expect 85 watts ..... but quite happy to get 5 to 6amps under "ideal conditions," which I also know don't occur regularly !!



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FollowupID: 521466

Follow Up By: Mainey (WA) - Monday, Sep 03, 2007 at 16:03

Monday, Sep 03, 2007 at 16:03
Pedro you will ' N E V E R ' get 6 Amps from a 85 watt Suntech panel go to your battery, I think they are about the same as BP (~4.9 Amp) under "optimum" conditions, which are not to be expected when camping anyway.
Normal conditions will see <5 amps for ONLY a very few hours per day maximum, then the rest of the day will see lesser numbers due to the type and quality of the panel design and surface !!
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FollowupID: 521530

Reply By: Robin Miller - Friday, Aug 31, 2007 at 19:37

Friday, Aug 31, 2007 at 19:37
Hi Pedro

I'd start by sorting out the issues 1 by 1 and the real issue will become easier to find.

If I read your note correctly you say that your 2 volt meters read different on same battery (12.6-8 & 11.8 )

This is a specific issue which can be solved seperately , just drop by any auto elec and they'll probably check you voltmeter reading for free.

You have to be able to have confidence in your test equipment.

Robin Miller

AnswerID: 259769

Follow Up By: Member - Pedro the One (QLD) - Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 22:07

Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 22:07
Spot on, Robin ................

>You have to be able to have confidence in your test equipment.<

Went through the full exercise again with a second multi-meter and guess what ............. the first one has a faulty pos. probe !!

"fitted voltmeter" reads at 13.+v [after re-charging via a 240V charger] and the second multi-meter reads at 13.08 volts .......

And ..... as mentioned above, my 'peep-hole' is now green, as is the one on the battery !!!

NOW .... to repair the faulty probe and pray to the Battery God for intervention in resurrecting my expensive Aux. battery.

Thanks to you and all above ............ what a great site,ay !!!!



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FollowupID: 521457

Reply By: Mainey (WA) - Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 17:17

Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 17:17
Pedro, your using a Cranking battery and expecting it to work like a Storage battery - which it won't, as posted above.

You post-> ""Likewise, running the Troopy engine gives 14.4v to the Main Battery [Supercharge 760cca] then ..... delivering 14.2v [per the fitted voltmeter] to the Auxiliary battery (SuperCharge 950cca) .""
You 'appear' to loose 0.6v between the two batteries, why is it so, is it your measuring skills or an equipment fault ??

Under these conditions your question can only be guessed at, however if as you say the 'peep-hole' indicator is grey there is a definite problem there with the lack of charge in the battery - why it's lacking in charge is uncertain because of uncertain charge information by the "fitted voltmeter" and the "trusty multimeter" one has to be wrong and it's likely the fitted voltmeter is the culprit, unless the user is reading it incorrectly.

The 85 watt panel puts out ~4.8 amps, so the 6 amp reg should work ok, was it installed by a competent person ??
Why do you "disconnect the solar panel at night" ??
AnswerID: 259967

Follow Up By: Member - Pedro the One (QLD) - Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 23:05

Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 23:05
Hi, Mainey .................

thanks for your response also ,was hoping you would respond/help !

Yep, I am now more informed re : cranking and storage batteries!

.....You 'appear' to loose 0.6v between the two batteries, why is it so, is it your measuring skills or an equipment fault ??

"my measuring skills ???" ......... no, see follow-up above re: equipment fault[y] !!" ie: the alleged "trusty multimeter !!"

Bearing in mind [now] that my Aux. battery is sited in the rear of the Troopy and not in the engine room : is a loss of .6v acceptable ? Wiring is HD from Derek, cable is earthed/bolted to chassis.

.....unless the user is reading it incorrectly


"No, have mastered the basics of ON .... probe ... and read !!!"

.....was it installed by a competent person ?

"competent person???? ... was 'moi', but guided by other 'much more competent persons!"

.....Why do you "disconnect the solar panel at night" ??

Got me on this one, though !!
More habit than anything else, old pussers [RAN] training to turn everything off at night iffen it ain't being used ......... plus an unreasonable and morbid fear "that all my amps/volts would somehow seep back out through the panel and return to the sun ??"

and all strictly with 'tongue in cheek' ......... I do value your input, in this as well as in other threads .

Thanks .............. Pedro
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FollowupID: 521464

Follow Up By: Mainey (WA) - Monday, Sep 03, 2007 at 17:02

Monday, Sep 03, 2007 at 17:02
Pedro,
I definately would NOT accept 0.6 Volt LOSS between any two batteries in a parallel system.

I would earth ALL the batteries at either the same bolt used by the Cranking battery or the Earth lug on the Cranking battery.

I would investigate the Suntech solar panel because it most "probably" sends power back to the sun.
( no, I'm not joking )

The reason I suggest this is the Suntech link actually states... IT WILL:
Regulator prevents solar discharge at night

Unfortunately I can't disprove this for you !!
Every other Solar panel I'm aware of will not...
but they all cost a few $$ more too.
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FollowupID: 521535

Follow Up By: Mainey (WA) - Monday, Sep 03, 2007 at 18:56

Monday, Sep 03, 2007 at 18:56
Wooops, yes I can .... "one bypass diode is installed"
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FollowupID: 521547

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