AWD opposed to 4WD

Submitted: Saturday, Sep 01, 2007 at 14:55

ThreadID: 49213 Views:3614 Replies:3 FollowUps:17

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Oldsquizzy (Kununurra)

Just loaded four new photo's to members pages showing what happens when a petrol AWD gets bogged as opposed to a diesel or 4wd.
Inexperience, revving the ring out of it and then all walking away to get help. Catalytic converter and dry grass don't mix. Ended up burning out 15 square klms and trapping to families near a rock face. And then eight hours using a Merlo to get to and retrieve what was left.
AWD are not 4WD's.

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Reply By: Member - Stephen M (NSW) - Saturday, Sep 01, 2007 at 16:03

Saturday, Sep 01, 2007 at 16:03

Looks like an xtrail ?? Jeez you did a good job of your tail shaft. Regards Steve

AnswerID: 259873

Follow Up By: Oldsquizzy (Kununurra) - Saturday, Sep 01, 2007 at 16:05

Saturday, Sep 01, 2007 at 16:05

LOL..Wasnt mine was a young bloke who thought Toyota's went better with 308 holden motors. Two tailshafts and three rear diff centre's and he sold it..

FollowupID: 521306

Reply By: Member - Terry G (NSW) - Saturday, Sep 01, 2007 at 16:17

Saturday, Sep 01, 2007 at 16:17

Squizzy
There are guys making a fortune out of rescuing awd's from Stockton sand dunes on this side of the island. You'll notice I dont even write their name in capitals for fear someone will think I like them. Of course the problem is the **** that the manufacturers are putting in their ads for these false pretenders.
I read a very indignant letter to the Sydney Morning Herald from the owner of a wrx who complained bitterly about discovering that he only had a space saver spare when he blew a tyre on the Oodnadatta Track. I guess we are going to have a few deaths from people becoming stranded in these things before anything is done about the advertising.
tessa

AnswerID: 259874

Follow Up By: Oldsquizzy (Kununurra) - Saturday, Sep 01, 2007 at 16:25

Saturday, Sep 01, 2007 at 16:25

Had a heap of nissan xtrails do motors in up here in the wet. Just under the bonnet line in front is a large air scoop to air filter box. So more than a foot of water and you had an oopsie....

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Follow Up By: Smudger - Saturday, Sep 01, 2007 at 17:45

Saturday, Sep 01, 2007 at 17:45

Funny you should mention a WRX. Was talking with a collegue and mentioned I had a 4WD. He said, (dead serious)"Yeah, well ..so have I!" Knowing what he drove, I thought maybe he had another vehicle that I'd wasn't aware of. Oh, what've you got? "You've seen it. A Subi Rex."
What do you say?
Maybe I should've invited him out for a day run into the bush.
I'd really like to see a WRX do a river crossing.

FollowupID: 521310

Follow Up By: Member - Stephen M (NSW) - Saturday, Sep 01, 2007 at 20:48

Saturday, Sep 01, 2007 at 20:48

Hi there Tessa, we are going to Stockon in a couple of weeks just to give my prado a run to see how it all goes before heading to Frazer (which has been moved to early next year now) We have a Toyota Kluger coming along for the run, auto, Not a Good Idea??? Also have an Xtrail (manual) ?? And also my boss wants to come but has got a subaru liberty ??? We going along with some other prados,cruisers,pajero's etc. Do you think the klugher,xtrail,liberty will be ok to come along ?? I'm sure the xtrail will have no worries but what about the kluger ?? I dont think they have a 50/50 lock like the xtrail does and I think the liberty will be far too low (ground clearance) None have been on the beach before except the bigger 4wds. Whats your opinion and any body elses. I did ask the question a while ago about the kluger for fraser but after reading the above Im a bit concerned they will either stuff it or get seriously bogged. Regards Steve M

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Follow Up By: Smudger - Saturday, Sep 01, 2007 at 22:22

Saturday, Sep 01, 2007 at 22:22

Stephen,
I'd expect your Prado will be doing a bit of rescue work in that company. Klugers' electronic traction control will most likely dig itself into a hole from standing start in the sand - probably at the entrance to the beach where the track is really dug up.
The X Trail will do OK, but the Auto front/rear torque transfer might overheat after a bit of hard work in the sand. (If that happens, tell the owner to let it sit and cool down for a while.) And the Liberty is not an off roader.
If they insist on going, make sure they all drop pressures to 16psi before trying to get onto the beach. (Any lower and there's a risk of rolling the tyres off the beads). Then tell them to stay on the beach and out of the dunes.

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Follow Up By: Richard W (NSW) - Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 06:33

Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 06:33

I'd agree with Stephen on those vehicles.

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Follow Up By: Member - Terry G (NSW) - Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 06:59

Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 06:59

I also agree with most of what Smudger has said, in particular in relation to the x-trail. Its advantage is its light weight compared to the others. However, I have electronic traction control on my auto Prado and have never had a problem with it on the beach or in the dunes. You will probably see all of these types of vehicles on the beach - i.e., the actual beachfront hard sand - they enter at the Birubi end, not Lavis Lane. BUT the dunes are a completely different story. Clearance is a major issue and once any of these have reduced tyre pressure they have insufficient clearance to proceed. As far as Frazer is concerned for the Kluger I would say NO GO!!! The tracks there are very deep from the constant use by tourist coaches, and the Kluger would bottom out with all 4 wheels off the ground.

tessa

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Follow Up By: Richard W (NSW) - Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 08:27

Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 08:27

Sorry should have said Smudger.

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Follow Up By: Member - Stephen M (NSW) - Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 08:55

Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 08:55

Hi Terry, Richard, So do you think its a definant no for the Liberty ?? I would say so, The xtrail Im pretty confident it will be ok and its a manual, but not sure on wether to inform the other people as to wether or not to take the kluger, I was intending to enter the beach via Birubi end due to the kluger anyway. He has a D4D extra cab hilux 4x4 as a work vehicle but is not his so have been trying to con him to ask his boss to take that, funny thing his boss has the same vehicle and he's taking his but hey he's the boss and owns both vehicles, even if he gets the ok his other problem is he has three kids but only two seat belts in the back of the hilux. I have offered to take one of the kids in the prado but I'm not keen on having some one else's child in my car just in case some thing goes wrong would never forgive my self. Whats your opinion on the Kluger. yes/no ?? Regards Steve

FollowupID: 521373

Follow Up By: Richard W (NSW) - Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 09:06

Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 09:06

Stephen,

Stockton is savage on clutches. I had to tow a mate 12km along the beach to Anna bay after he did his.
Personally I wouldn't lead a trip on Stockton with vehicles that didn't have a transfer case. Even the beach can be soft at times.

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Follow Up By: Member - Terry G (NSW) - Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 10:40

Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 10:40

Yes I agree

tessa

FollowupID: 521382

Follow Up By: F4Phantom - Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 13:06

Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 13:06

The subaru's only issue is the ride height. In auto form they have an excellent 4x4 system and its very robust with a good power to weight ratio (as does the kluger), if its manual it will be harder. The suby also has a very simple system that will likley not have any issues. I would think the xtrail will have a harder time with overheating and 4x4 transmission issues.

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Follow Up By: F4Phantom - Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 13:09

Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 13:09

wrx river crossing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkC1IdJcaRI&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AgI1TA2kmc

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Follow Up By: Smudger - Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 14:26

Sunday, Sep 02, 2007 at 14:26

Stephen,
Bottom line is that you can't make other people's decisions. A bit tough though, telling the boss what he can and can't do with his cars, guess you have to warn him the best way you know how and if he still insists, let him try. I guess the worst case is that he'll get stuck and have to be dragged out, and maybe bugger up what should be a great fun day.
Mind you, I reckon it's rude of ignorant drivers to expect others to put their vehicles - clutches etc - at risk to drag them through a sand trap that they shouldn't even be in. (I'd like to hear from anyone who's burnt out a clutch rescuing another truck, and had the bill covered by the othr bloke.)
As to taking responsibility for other people's kids as passengers, I'd certainly speak up about it. Even on 4WD Club training days at Stockton, the leader/instructor usually has all members sign 'at own risk' documents to cover the Club against litigation. And most of those people have already done a bit of four wheelin'.

FollowupID: 521399

Reply By: Warrigal - Monday, Sep 03, 2007 at 22:49

Monday, Sep 03, 2007 at 22:49

The real moral of this story is about inexperience, ignorance and lack of preparation. A petrol 4WD could just as easily have caused that fire by parking carelessly. One is alleged to have done just that with the Black Tuesday bushfire that went through our own backyard.

Getting into trouble is part of the challenge of going off road. Experience enables drivers to anticipate and prepare for difficulties and to have an action plan for recovery.

Photographs rarely do a situation justice but this looks like a flat section of loose sand where a lightweight 4WD would generally have an advantage over a traditional heavyweight. Unfortunately with an automatic compact 4WD, there is often this problem with the automatic transmission overheating.

The most serous error was not being aware of the risk of fire. You don't have to 'rev the ring' out out of a petrol vehicle to heat up a catalytic converter.

I drive a so called 'softroader' (Forester X manual) which is soft on the environment, soft on my pocket (less than 9 litres per 100 km on a trip) and because I'm not soft in the head! However, I am aware of the catalytic converter issue and there are some places where I take special care (or our diesel Hilux).

Read the trip reports in the Forum at www.offroadsubarus.com if you want an alternative point of view on what is possible with a modern compact vehicle.

AnswerID: 260201

Follow Up By: Oldsquizzy (Kununurra) - Tuesday, Sep 04, 2007 at 00:20

Tuesday, Sep 04, 2007 at 00:20

I agree with the first three reasons you give in your reply, But if that is all it is why ? even today were the only vehicles picked up this weekend and today a mazda tribute a sanyong and a subaru outback All with broken suspension and all on the gibb or the Duncan. Three out of every four cars we pick out of the Bungles, Gibb Duncan and CSR are soft roaders as you call them, or AWD's.
I was'nt having a go at these type of cars or the drivers, The only way to gain experience is to do things you have'nt done before.
What I find most is people dont know the limitations of these vehicles or have'nt done any courses to learn the limitations of or correct ways to use them.

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Follow Up By: Warrigal - Tuesday, Sep 04, 2007 at 01:36

Tuesday, Sep 04, 2007 at 01:36

Don't know much about the Sanyong although some 4WD writers are starting to speak well of them.

With the other two, you've got sports car handling attached to a smallish vehicle with a great power to weight ratio. So people can get sucked into this rally driver type mentality. I know I do and I'm old enough to know better!

Trouble is these vehicles don't have the same suspension as a true rally car and then they put the whole lot on these silly little low profile tyres that really hammer the suspension and the government wont let you do anything about it.

Of course, if the silly buggers would upgrade their crappy OEM tyres to something reasonable, let a little air out of the tyres and slow down a tad, they might stand half a chance. They are probably overloaded into the bargain.

Meanwhile, your traditional 4WD is trundling down the same track with its live axles and humungous tyres soaking up the lumps and bumps, going much slower 'cos it makes no pretense of having any rallying abilities and nothing much breaks.

Statistically there are probably a lot more softroaders out there to get broken too.

The solution is education. Sooner or later, the manufacturers need to provide more comprehensive guidance to their customers so that they respect the limits of their vehicles.

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Follow Up By: Oldsquizzy (Kununurra) - Tuesday, Sep 04, 2007 at 07:22

Tuesday, Sep 04, 2007 at 07:22

I agree the solution is education, but I think the onus is on the buyer the same way a chook does'nt teach you to scramble an egg you have to learn yourself.

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