Dual Batteries

Submitted: Sunday, Dec 02, 2007 at 09:11
ThreadID: 52169 Views:4528 Replies:3 FollowUps:5
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Hi all!
Just after some help re: batteries as I am new to all this 4 wd stuff. I have just purchased a Nissan Patrol GUII st 3.0litre turbo diesel. I am looking at putting in a second battery for our camping trailer. I want to put in as big a deep cycle battery as can fit under the bonnet. Can anyone tell me how big I can go and what a good brand would be to get.
Thanks
Deni
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Reply By: Member - Mick O (VIC) - Sunday, Dec 02, 2007 at 09:54

Sunday, Dec 02, 2007 at 09:54
From experience, without moving stuff you'll only fit in around a 90-100 hour Battery. You can fit a bigger cradle if you move a bit of stuff about. Give a 4x4 place that fit dual battery kits a ring and ask for a quote and what units they can fit. Usually a very good source of info. As to Batteries, I'd reccommend an AGM deep cycle. As to brand, your choice. Do a search of the forum as there is a heap of info. The other alternative is to fit a matching Deep Cycle in the trailer and connect with a 50amp anderson plug. (That's what I've done having two 90 A/H AGM's) That will give you a fair bit of capacity.

This link Battery info has some info about the various battery types.
(I got a very good deal on AGM's at Super-Charge Batteries. $179 for the 90A/H. They are in every state.

Cheers. Mick
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Follow Up By: Sand Man (SA) - Sunday, Dec 02, 2007 at 14:19

Sunday, Dec 02, 2007 at 14:19
A little word of caution folks.

Not all AGM batteries have the same footprint (length, depth, height)
for the same Amp Hour rating. All AGM batteries will have a larger footprint than a wet cell deep cycle one.

So it is probably more relevant to check the size of the cradle that will fit in the available space in the engine bay, then pick a battery that will fit in the cradle.

I agree that an AGM battery is the best all round choice.




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Follow Up By: deni67 - Sunday, Dec 02, 2007 at 19:01

Sunday, Dec 02, 2007 at 19:01
Thanks for the info, I am getting the cradle put in next week, will take the nissan to a battery place and see what will fit. You will have to excuse the ignorance but what is the difference between the AGM batteries & a wet cell deep cycle battery?
Thanks Deni
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Follow Up By: wazzaaaa - Sunday, Dec 02, 2007 at 20:10

Sunday, Dec 02, 2007 at 20:10
This may help although they are pushing concord batterys,
Wazzaaaaa
Absorbed Glass Mat Batteries
What is AGM, and what makes AGM technology better
Absorbed Glass Mat batteries are constructed differently than the traditional flooded battery. This write up covers mainly the Concorde Sun-Xtender AGM's, but also applies to most other brands of deep cycle AGM batteries.

In AGM batteries (also called starved electrolyte), there is a thin ultra-fine fiberglass mat sandwiched between the plates that are saturated to about 95% of what they can hold. This mat is then packed in between the plates and slightly compressed, then welded/soldered in place. Because the plates and mats are packed fairly tight, they are almost immune to vibration.

AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) sealed battery technology was originally invented in 1980, and developed and introduced in 1985 for military aircraft where power, weight, safety, and reliability were paramount considerations. The Concorde is a VRSLAB (Valve Regulated Sealed Lead-Acid Battery). Sometimes referred to as VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead-Acid). Several manufacturers now produce AGM batteries, but Concorde was the first to develop the technology for commercial quantities.

An important thing about AGM - Just because a battery is AGM does NOT make it a deep cycle battery. Several companies, such as Optima, have adopted AGM for starting batteries and other non-deep cycle applications. Those still have the advantages of AGM, but are not deep cycle.

The Sun-Xtender batteries are essentially the same construction as the Concorde Lifeline, Chairman, and other Concorde AGM batteries. The major difference is that the Sun-Extender batteries have bolt-on terminals instead of the common post type. We feel that bolt on terminals give a much more reliable connection.

Battery Efficiency:
This comparison is important, and is critical for high charge or discharge rate applications. Internal resistance of a battery denotes its overall charge/discharge efficiency, its ability to deliver high currents without significant drops in voltage, and is a measure of the quality of the components and construction.

Internal resistance in NiCad and NiFe batteries is approximately 40%, i.e., you need to charge them to 140% of its rated capacity to have it fully charged. For standard flooded Lead-Acid batteries, internal resistance is usually around 10% to 15% for a new battery, and can be as high as 25%+ for older batteries.

Gel batteries are better at approximately 16% internal resistance and require only roughly 116% of rated capacity to be fully charged. Concorde Advanced AGM has the lowest internal resistance of any battery manufactured - only 2 percent. In solar electric systems, this is the same as getting an extra 10 to 15% out of your panels. This allows Concorde batteries to be charged much faster if needed and also to deliver higher power when required. Owners using high output alternators, operating inverter banks, or relying on solar panels can benefit significantly when using Concorde Advanced AGM batteries with their equipment. Concorde AGM's are more efficient.

Heat: Better efficiency also means much less heat is developed in the batteries - any current that does not actually go to charging a battery turns into heat. That is why some batteries, especially older flooded batteries (and even some non-deep cycle AGM), can get very warm or even hot. In extreme cases you can get " thermal runaway", which can be dangerous.
Concorde batteries far exceed the Coast Guard test for thermal runaway: These MW-SPEC (Military Specification) tests involve fully charging a battery, heating it to over 130 degrees (Potential Thermal Runaway Conditions) and then overcharging the battery to simulate a shorted cell. (16V for a 12V battery).

Concorde AGM batteries are NOT a gelled electrolyte. It is considered a "Recombinant Gas Absorbed Electrolyte" battery. This cuts water loss by up to 98%. Loss of charge due to self-discharge is 3 to 10 times better than with conventional gelled, and 5 to 50 times less than with flooded batteries. The gasses recombine almost 100% within the battery, reducing Hydrogen emissions to a level far below most battery types, and less than half the lower explosive limit for Hydrogen. In addition, they do not have the charge and discharge current limitations that most gelled batteries have.

Concorde AGM battery technology has continued to develop and offer improvements over other sealed battery technologies. AGM technology has become the next step in the evolution of both starting and deep cycle sealed batteries for marine, RV, and aviation applications. These are the same batteries that the US Military uses in many of it's armored and standard vehicles. This "next generation" technology delivers increased safety, performance, and service life over all other existing sealed battery types, including gel technology. All Concorde AGM batteries carry a one-year full warranty - most gelled cells carry only a 90-day warranty.

All AGM batteries, such as Concorde, have much better resistance to vibration and shock due to their construction than most flooded batteries. The plates are packed in with the glass mat, reducing plate movement and vibration to nearly zero. In addition, because the glass mats are not totally saturated and the liquid does not expand to cause plate and case damage, AGM batteries can withstand freezing.

Concorde AGM batteries meet MIL-SPEC B8565J and FAR 23.1353, 25.1353(c), 27.1353, 29.1353(3), 25.853(a). All Concorde AGM batteries are shippable without restriction by any means of transportation, including air. Hazardous labeling is not required.

In AGM sealed batteries, the acid is absorbed between the plates and immobilized by a very fine fiberglass mat. No silica gel, as is used in gelled, is necessary. This glass mat absorbs and immobilizes the acid while still keeping the acid available to the plates. This allows a fast reaction between acid and plate material. Even if the battery is broken, no electrolyte will be spilled.

The AGM battery has an extremely low internal electrical resistance. This, combined with faster acid migration, allows the AGM batteries to deliver and absorb higher rates of amperage than any other sealed batteries during discharging and charging. In addition, AGM technology batteries can be charged at normal flooded lead-acid regulated charging voltages, therefore, it is not necessary to recalibrate charging systems or purchase special chargers. Concorde AGM batteries can be bulk charged at high rates without damage - up to 10 times as fast as most gelled cells, and 4 times as fast as flooded batteries.

AGM batteries are not the best for all applications - they are rather expensive compared to flooded batteries. However, their safety and design features make them the battery of choice for many applications, such as:

Where you cannot have fumes or hydrogen, such as in poorly ventilated areas, or where fumes may cause corrosion to electronics, such as repeater and cell phone sites.
Where resistance to shock and vibration is important.
Where spilled acid from leaking, tipped, or broken batteries cannot be tolerated.
When installed in a location where maintenance would be difficult or expensive, such as remote communications sites.
Anyplace where you need a reliable totally sealed battery for safety or environmental reasons - wheelchairs, medical standby power, inside RV's, computer room UPS systems, or in enclosed spaces in boats.

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Follow Up By: Sand Man (SA) - Monday, Dec 03, 2007 at 08:17

Monday, Dec 03, 2007 at 08:17
Deni,

Put very simply, a standard "wet cell" deep cycle battery contains electrolyte (acid), the same as a normal starting battery. They need to be kept upright (and give of dangerous vapour which can be a problem in confined spaces. Under the bonnet is OK for a "wet cell" battery.

An AGM (absorbed Glass Mat) battery's contents are in a gelled form which can't spill. The battery can be used on any angle and don not give of dangerous vapor. These are much more practical when used in confined spaces and can even be stored/mounted inside the vehicle's cabin, or cargo area.

All the info Wazzaaaa posed is relevant, provided you can understand it:-)




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Reply By: Ray - Sunday, Dec 02, 2007 at 13:50

Sunday, Dec 02, 2007 at 13:50
You could fit the battery in your camping trailer then you would have 12v when your car is not connected. Have a look at Derek's site. He has a wiring diagram to suit
AnswerID: 274671

Follow Up By: deni67 - Sunday, Dec 02, 2007 at 18:59

Sunday, Dec 02, 2007 at 18:59
Hi Ray
Thanks, we are already putting one in the trailer as well as a second one under the bonnett. I will be running two fridges, one in trailer and one in the back of the nissan. This is all new to me and I am just trying to get us much info as I can, so I get it right from the beginning.
Thanks
Deni
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Reply By: Member - Mainey (wa) - Tuesday, Dec 04, 2007 at 07:45

Tuesday, Dec 04, 2007 at 07:45
Deni,
You say you are running two fridges, one in the Nissan and one in the Trailer!
Most efficient way is to use two (identical) AGM Deep Cycle batteries, one mounted in the back of the Nissan (not engine bay) and the other mounted in the Trailer.
Use a battery isolator mounted near the original Cranking battery and an Anderson plug at the bumper bar, use the thickest battery cable that will fit into the Anderson plug, because the Alternator has to charge the Trailer battery with-out major voltage loss caused by the long distance.

NOT all AGM's are of the technical specifications of the Concorde AGM as described above, remember the Concorde is one of the most efficient batteries available and 10 times the price of a 'cheap' AGM, yes, 'probably' 10 times more efficient too.

Check out the technical specifications of various AGM's before making a final choice, unless your buying the cheapest possible battery.
Battery choice often depends on $$$ as 'looks' are non important and you can't see inside them lol.
However, IMO the apparent quality of the battery construction and terminals gives some indication to overall quality.

Use a battery that's as big as you can afford to fit in a given space, with a minimum of 100ah as a starting point. It takes no longer to charge a 130ah battery than it takes to charge a 80ah battery (when used to run the same fridge for the same time) and the battery will last far longer simply because it's not over discharged as often as a smaller capacity battery is.
EG. 50% discharge on a 130ah battery takes much longer to achieve than on a 80ah battery and only a little bit longer to fully recharge.


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