Why I would not buy a 200 series Landcruiser

Gday Richard,
I think it is a legitimate concern.
I know people who's Toyota has failed to start because of the transponder key immobiliser system suddenly stopped working; a Disco stuck on the Canning for 3 weeks last year, and cost $15,000 to retrieve because of an engine electrical problem, two Defenders that failed to start for unknown reason, but pulling fuses and resetting computer got it going. A 79seriesTD that required retrieving in the Kimberley because the ECU box that is moved to fit a 2nd battery tray was not adequately earthed to the chassis. A Kia Sportage that could not be pulled out of 4wd because of a solenoid malfunction failing to inactivate the vacuum activitated 4wd system, and many more...

I travel remotely with a lot of people, over many years and I also wouldn't buy a vehicle with so many unnecessary electrical gismos.

I have heard similar stories from outback mechanics for many years.
Having said that there are two reasons why I wouldn't buy a 200 series.
1) Lack of money
2) I wouldn't be able to sleep, worrying that I might get it scratched...or dirty :))

~~" People get to concerned about electronic stuff on vehicles..sure it does fail but how often.

Electronic gear fitted to vehicles are extremely reliable, if it wasn't you would hear about it. "~~

Sorry to burst your bubble:

There is no RELIABILITY in electronics - A perfectly good, well made piece of electronics may fail the day you buy it or twenty years down the track. Bit like winning the lottery in reverse.

A perfectly good, well made mechanical item will last as long as neglect and wear and tear permit - THATS RELIABILITY - not the guessing game we play with elctronics.


~~" When was the last time you heard of one of the high tech gizmo's failing making the vehicle undrivable? "~~

Google all vehicle brands and their fault recalls / owners forums and work out your own statistics. Start with info from 1985 as thats about when the build cheapness / sale profit levels of electronics was realised by the vehicle manufacturers.

~~" People have televisions that are used 6 hours a day and are 15 years old that don't fail. "~~

Yep and one of their neighbours has probably had half a dozen.

~~" Learn to live with technology. "~~

Not much other choice is there ???

~~" I can remember when electronic fuel injection came out on 4x4's and people swore they would not buy one because if it broke down you would be stuck. "~~

And it does - and you will. Once upon a time you only broke down with a fuel problem because of dirty fuel or because YOU hadnt replaced a WORN fuel pump component. Now theres a multitude of electrical / electronic reasons for a fuel related breakdown - ANYTHING - from a low battery to a failed crank angle sensor.

~~"Old Mal I take it you drive a mechanical injected diesel with no electronics or a carby petrol vehicle!"~~

Lucky him if he does - I priced up a 1984 diesel troopy "restoration" about 6 months - About $30k to get it back up to touring level quality. Stopped me from getting something I never should have sold in the first place.

Whilst electronics can make life very comfortable - It doesnt deserve the hero status worship levels you seem to give it.

Two sides to a coin, old son. (wink)


And just to stay on topic .... Toyota hasnt made a vehicle that I have wanted - since about 1985

The 200 series - whats that ????

No reliability in electronics eh !!!
Rubbish..........its the same as any part for a car.........QUALITY of the component....

You better not ever fly in a plane then.....they're full of electronics !!

But I agree with the idea of not having too much technology when it's not needed for an outback type of vehicle..
But that's what the public want ........manufacturers don't whack on all this stuff for the fun of it.....

Good point about aeroplanes Gronk.

I do use them - but only because they have MULTIPLE back up systems because at least the aeroplane manufacturers acknowledge the possible failure rate of electronic components.

"but only because they have MULTIPLE back up systems "

That's because you can't get out and fly! When the car stops you can get out an walk.

Pete

Yes electronics fail.
They fail regularly.

I fly the aeroplanes for a living and despite VERY well designed electronics- way, way better than ANY car- they can and do fail regularly. And yes we do have multiple backups for just about everything!

I pulled up beside a guy last month in his new 200 series on the side of the road- he was stuck as it just refused to do anything (including start) after he stopped for a pee!
My brother-in law's new Hilux did a similar thing last week driving Brisbane to Sydney.

Give me my "steam driven" GQ any day- about the only real electronics would be the clock...... (apart from my "add-ons".)

Can also have same prob we did at Ayers Rock. Put the immobiliser in bottom of cooler bag with drink bottle (no ice pack just drink bottle) and the droplets of water off the outside of the drink bottle stuffed the immobiliser. RACQ said see you in 4 or 5 hrs, Spare immobiliser locked nicely into glove compartment and us on the outside thinking should we smash the window or not?

About an hr of a pulled apart immobiliser sitting in the sun was enough to dry it out sufficiently to re-open car. Rang RACQ and they said thanks but the guy has left Alice......Don't know what happened with payment to him but we never got the bill hehehe.

Could not imagine this happening to a key opened door, even a bent key could be straightened to make do.

Part of my reasoning for the modern day marvel GU 4.2 Patrol vehicle I own, about as much electronics as a 1988 GQ.

I am sure I will need to buy a new vehicle one day and electronics will be on that one but for now, I'll feel safe in taking my 360 000 K old GU bush for a bit longer.

Cheers, Trevor.

Hey Trevor .....

Sounds like the biggest problem there was (besides moisture) the fact that the big chunky remote / key combo is too INCONVENIENT to just leave in in your pocket.

Check out the el cheapo shops for slide on / clip on pouches for your pants belt. Alls sorts of sizes and shapes especially designed for accessorising our "much needed" electronics technology.

Hey Pete, obviously you don't have a keyless entry vehicle. Otherwise you would know that they have a "hidden" key that operates the drivers door in the event of battery failure!

Cheers

Captain

Captain it was a corp rental vehicle we where asked to pick up from Mudgee airport. Can you send me a mm on the location of the key if we strike the same problem again, or are they all diff.
We just left it their and got the nrma I think to fix it.
Cheers Pete

Member message sent!

Cheers

Captain

PS. Let me know if it doesn't get thru, it took a few refreshes - doesn't seem like David has quite ironed out all the bugs yet!

Thanks for that Captain, could be usefull to know in the future.
Cheers Pete

Or maybe take a drive to Bendigo and pick up a Bushmaster, now that's a real 4WD!!!!

Gday,
Just ask member-GredF about that.....(something to do with the MAF? sensor)

Cheers

I agree Serg. Mechnical stuff goes wrong but can usually be fixed or worked around out bush. Not so for much of the electronics. Hence, not good choice for remote work. It's the unfixability, not the reliability that is the problem. I'm much happier with something without all the gadgets. Just love my 60 series Toyo. Out bush I want something I can get dirty, scratch without crying too much etc. Happy with remote control door locking etc etc on the town car though.

Brian,

Those point what you made are 100% valid. Although there is one hidden rock with electronically controlled equipment. I give you examples for easy express myself.

Say you been unfortunate to break 3-rd gear in manual transmission. What you going to do? Simple – limp home skipping it to lick your wounds. Not that simple with electronically controlled one! If electronic detects certain malfunctions it put tranny in “safe” mode when only one gear will work – usually second highest. That makes it effectively non-operation. There is electromechanical way to force it shifting from gear to gear manually, but it not that simple, it is not that easy to do in your garage, forget about bush!

Similarly at last level of emergency if you have one deadly broken diesel injector, you can cut supply pipe, bend it couple of times and limp on 5 cylinders. Try this trick with electronically controlled one – most likely you will not be able to start your engine at all.

Or you break propeller drive shaft (happened, actually). Just disconnect it and go home in FWD mode. Try this with hydraulically coupled Disco – it will not move at all. And list is going on.

This is what “anti-electronic brigade” talking about.

Cheers
Serg

Thankyou Serg ....

Kinda cute that the multicultural background is needed to explain something in " plain english "

LOLOLOL

Good onya

"and the day will come when even a clapped out twenty year old one for $1000 will be full of electronics."

Yes true.
And can you even begin to imagine the NIGHTMARE of old cars which are full of mis-behaving electronics.
Too scary to comprehend!!!

Sounds like the manufacturers will "force our hand".
My software engineer son (he designs this sort of stuff) also assures me there are often faults "designed in to electronic components" to force us to spend money on spare parts. They don't WANT them to be 100% reliable!!!

Scary- you bet!

>My software engineer son (he designs this sort of stuff) also
>assures me there are often faults "designed in to electronic
>components" to force us to spend money on spare parts. They
>don't WANT them to be 100% reliable!!!

Rubbish.

Mike Harding

"Rubbish".
And Mike, your "expert" knowledge in this area would be???? You design the stuff and trouble shoot the software programs do you?

My son is a senior software engineer and works for one of the biggest computer companies in the world, and has a hand in the design of all sorts of electronic components- for all sorts of companies. He has told me of many items he has found with "designed in" faults in the software which WILL fail on a random basis.

I can assure you it is NOT rubbish.

Flash, your son is either an idiot or a liar.

I've worked and currently work in the field of automotive electronics both as a designer of electronic modules and as an engineer for the companies who sell the semiconductors to OEM's who manufacture the aforementioned products. Around 90% of the design time of any product that goes into an automotive module is quality assurance. Component manufacturers, OEMs and car makers cannot afford to have any quality issues as the cost of returning a vehicle and repairing is huge and the profit margins are very slim.

I cannot actually be bothered going into the details of why your statement is such a load of urban myth drivel but the one thing I will point out is that the majority of failures I have seen that come back to the OEM are manufacturing problems such as board stress (dry joints) or ESD damage etc. You cannot design these issues in and no company that I am aware of has ever tried.

Reputations are made and broken on quality do you honestly think a car maker would try to make a few extra bucks from selling spares when their main business is selling the new cars. Try not to be so gullible to conspiracy theories.

>And Mike, your "expert" knowledge in this area would be????

Coming up to 35 years in the business. Started as an
electrician worked on low voltage systems, high voltage
systems, industrial machines, control systems and diesel
generators. Qualified (a couple of times) into tertiary
electronics. Extensive experience in the design of both
hardware and embedded (real time) software, CPLD design too,
and a bit of PC code thrown in for good measure.

More specifically I have designed, or been significantly
involved in the design of; medical implantable devices,
broadcast control systems, military battlefield equipment,
high power RF sputtering systems, automotive analysis
equipment, very high resolution ultrasonic polymer defect
analysis, atomic weapons, the JET project, very early warning
smoke detection, some high volume consumer junk and lots of
stuff I've forgotten. Many contributors to this forum will be
driving round in vehicles which have both software and
hardware designed by me in them. Currently I am engaged as a
consultant to the largest scientific organisation in the
southern hemisphere and am involved in the
electronic/software aspects of complex safety systems and
doing a bit of AGM battery analysis too.

I have written code for more microcontrollers than I can
recall going back to the Intel 8080 and up to current RISC
machines. Hardware wise I was designing in TTL and 4000
series CMOS (also did a bit on valves! :) before micros
became common place. All the above across most of the
continents too.

I believe I can say, I know my way around most things
electrical.

Now: designed in faults?

Hardware: as an example Bosch don't accept the performance
data supplied by electronic component manufacturers instead
they perform their own, very sophisticated, analysis and
create their own data set. Last time I heard, this process
cost around A$30,000 per component which makes for very
expensive resistors. Bosch designers are strictly prohibited
from using components which have not been Bosch qualified -
why do you think Bosch go to all this trouble?

Software: it's probably fair to say that most embedded
software is not written by the end user instead they contract
out for those skills usually. Software written outside the
company will be supplied as source code which will be
analysed by the purchaser and in many cases there will be
penalty clauses in the event of bugs. eg. if you supply to a
motor vehicle company you also agree to carry the cost of a
recall if your product should cause one - that is an
excellent incentive to ensure you get it right. If the
software is written inside the company it will go through
peer review and extensive testing.

Do you _really_ believe that companies such as Sony,
Panasonic, Toyota, Ford, Bosch etc, etc... would risk the
total commercial destruction of their brand name if it got
out (which it inevitably would) that they were designing in
random faults to their products? They would have to have a
commercial death wish to do so.

I could go on... but suffice it to say that after all my time
in the industry, all over the world, I have _NEVER_ seen or
even heard of a product being deliberately designed to fail
and unless you can present conclusive evidence of such I say
the assertion is rubbish.

Mike Harding

Not trying to start a fight Footloose .... just examples

Uniden UHF - tossed in the bin at 9mnths

El cheapo Jaycar item with almost the same features - 2yrs and still going.

As I stated above:

There is no RELIABILITY in electronics - A perfectly good, well made piece of electronics may fail the day you buy it or twenty years down the track. Bit like winning the lottery in reverse.

A perfectly good, well made mechanical item will last as long as neglect and wear and tear permit - THATS RELIABILITY - not the guessing game we play with elctronics.

No fighting :))
I was simply trying to point out that some stuff is more reliable than others because it's built to a standard and not a price.
There are very strict standards for hospital electronics and the stuff on passenger jets. Far more strict than for engine ecu's, for example.
I have seen newish electronics and communications stuff fail regularly...I've also seen mechanical stuff fail, usually for the reasons that you gave. The electronics stuff failed for a variety of reasons, and poor quality design, build and components were there at the top.
There will always be the exceptions. The consumer stuff that fails within a week; the car that's a "lemon".
Manufacturers will almost always choose profit instead of reliability if the market is competetive and the shareholders are many.

pheeew ... we're still pals ..... lolol

whats with the $0.01 resistors ..... You getting a better discount at Dick Smiths than me ... or something ?????

Maybe mine are better quality ... lol

Yours probably are better quality...I buy them in bulk :))

"Your life was at the mercy of the electronics as well as the surgeon"

Footy,
Your life is in the hands of your anaesthetist. When the electronics stuff up on our flash $100,000 anaesthetic machines, we resort to a simple mechanical circuit, and battery operated monitoring. We have a lot of backups to keep it all safe!

Cheers
Phil

Phil, you are correct of course. I wasn't being quite as pedantic, and apologise if I've trodden on any toes.
By the way, fallen over or got caught up in any wires in theatre lately ? :))))

Sorry I didn't mean to come across that way. Being pedantic gets drummed into us.............unfortunately it rubs off in my forum replies :-))))

Cheers
phil

Phil, you weren't pedantic, I was just wasn't specific enough.
Sometimes it's tough, being a layman:))
I haven't picked that up from your postings or responses, quite the opposite.

I guess all these electronics problems you are talking about are just 'different' to the ones where the mechanic left the spanners inside the block or the tyre fitter who left the tyre lever inside a tractor tyre here. Made quite an impression when it hit the wall of a shed :-((((

Yes, the tyre came back off the rim on over inflation.

GoneBush,

I am just curious where I can get reasonably priced roadside assistance who would be happy to go in the middle of (… put your favorite destination here …) to fix my stranded 10 y.o. cruiser? If it such simple and cheap probably I just fooling myself carrying around 50 kg tools and spares? And does yours came to change tyres as well? :-P

Cheers
Serg

Serg,

you stirrer, you !! lol

Reasonably priced is subjective, but Toyota's own Roadside Service will come and get you.


RACWA will come and get me, and my van.

Talk to Roachie about being shipped home from Birdsville by RACV.

And if the Vics can do it then us West Aussies can do it better !!

cheers

GB,

“you stirrer, you !! lol”

I never been declining this :-)))))))

Seriously, though. I am sure that in the middle of nowhere they will help you. As long as you on bitumen. Their help can stretch even to Birdsville. But how about in the middle of Simpson or in VicAlps? You advise is good enough for “tourers” and “towers”, but not that good for “explorers” and "4WDers". And besides some enjoy being self-sustainable :-).

Cheers
Serg

Im a heavy transport operator, we had a driver driving a late model volvo at night doing a milk run. Sitting on a hundred klicks the lights went out the motor stopped no steering, truck leaves road ends on its side, driver physically alright. He has never since then driven at night, and that includes his own personnal vehicle. Turned out to be a short on a 2mm wire, which volvo had down sized from the previous model to save what ever. Have also driven quite a few late model trucks with electronic lights flashing and mechanics, sparkys have not been able to diagnose a fault so black tape put over light. Col

I for one certainly dont deny the usefulness of electronics, nor the length of time electronics ( even the dark age stuff ) has been around. I do however believe that the blind faith that people put in electronics is misguided.

The post by kiwicol is a perfect example. Had that been a 'fatal' accident the official verdict would probably have attributed the situation to speeding or sleeping.

My first 'electronic' vehicle was a mazda back in '84 and there have been numerous other vehicles since. In all that time, none of the vehicles of various brands ever had a mechanical problem.

Most of them at one point or another, failed at the most inconvenient time or displayed annoying hiccups requiring expensive diagnostic testing and further repair / replacements costs.

Why were there no mechanical failures ??? .... Preventative maintenance of course - because as you said Olcoolone - mechanical components have a life cycle.

Why were there electronic failures ??? .......... Because you just have to hope they will work the next time you start your vehicle - and sometimes they dont.

Maybe if I keep posting this:

There is no RELIABILITY in electronics - A perfectly good, well made piece of electronics may fail the day you buy it or twenty years down the track. Bit like winning the lottery in reverse.

A perfectly good, well made mechanical item will last as long as neglect and wear and tear permit - THATS RELIABILITY - not the guessing game we play with elctronics.

The point will get across.

Oh and BTW .... as I have built several 'bypassing' doodads for some electronic components on my vehicles - I think I have at least one foot into the future. The fact that I had to do it is what gets on my goat.

"......what the hell do you do if they just stop for no apparent valid reason???..."

Ahh, thats easy. Get out the sat phone, dial Toyota (or RAC, or NRMA, or...) and give the GPS co-ordinates while you sip cold beer/wine/chardonnay from the Engels while waiting for a tow - gee's, you've practiced the drill recently ;)

But you are right, years ago I would have popped the bonnet and most likely have been able to fix whatever stopped it. Now, I doubt I would even bother popping the bonnet. But would check my Scanguage, see what the fault code was (if it showed up) and then hope like hell that clearing the code enables me to limp home. If not, go back to Plan A.

Seriously though, its not life and death in the bush any more if you are prepared (emphasis on being prepared). And those who venture out unprepared are most likley to have issues regardless of vehicle type (like no maintenance, passenger tyres, no maps/GPS, no comms, etc...). And realistically, I reckon more people come unstuck with either poor maintenance or poor (punctured) tyres than any electrical problems on a near new vehicle.

Besides, of all the problems I have been involved with in my multitude of club runs, 99.9% have been caused from aftermarket mods or simply lack of maintenance. I cannot recall a single electrical issue on a near new (<5 years) stock vehicle - but thats not to say they don't happen. All about probabilities, risk and consequences.

At the end of the day, manufacturers no longer make anything to last. I reckon you have a 99% chance these days of no failures (vehicle requiring a tow) while under warranty, 95% in the first 5 years and decreasing ever downwards after that - all designed to get you to buy a new vehicle - hey, arn't the banks liking that :)

Cheers mate

Captain

PS. I have always wanted a V8 Chev diesel, used to dream about that torque from idle. So while I may not have a chev, having 400Nm from idle and 650Nm from 1600-3500rpm is just sheer delight. Couple that with a 6 speed auto and you no longer think about power, you simply adjust your right foot to provide the amount of forward momentum desired! Having a bonnet full of electric wires is simply the price for it :(

Old Mal,

you didn't open a can of worms,,,

all you did was use the keyless entry feature incorrectly.

It works fine when used properly.