Attitudes on the Forum

David
I am wondering your thoughts on my usual Sunday History Photo's , They are usually off topic , I try to keep it Australian based but if you think that it's not appropriate then I'll give it a miss.

Doug

Very well put, and I can only hope it will result in the forum being used for the purpose it was intended without all the childish remarks which have become quite prevalent of late with no bearing to the post. Maybe a reminder like this is needed every now and then.

I'm not a member. NOW YOU KNOW WHY

Good on you David and Michelle after reading all the depressing things on the newspaper ,believe me it is such a relief to come and read the forum news which is also very constructive as I am planning a long trip in the near future.A good sense of humour is great but nastiness is a No No........

Totally agree with your comments David, keep up your good work. I'll say no more
Cheers

I have been accused of being a bit short on some reply's.
I have also apologised a couple of times when I was wrong.

I find that if people post somthing that has been done before a few on this site jump down there necks.

If you don't like the heading on the post don't read it simple.

If as that picture of the puddle its been done before who really cares just have a look and don't comment if its not positive.

When we do a cape tag along as I have 20 odd times now I get the same questions a million times and will for ever more.
I always answer them the same because its new to that person or group.

All the best
Eric

I can't find 62718 - nothing (or virtually nothing) should be censored.

Happy days

George

Very well put David

Cheers.

I too am not a member for similar reasons - I see people post something in all seriousness and the one eyed rednecks come out in their droves and flame them.

It does not take much to be civil and courteous and if something gets up your nose - it is better to say nothing.

If this forum improves I will most likely become a member but if not - I will have to pass.

Garry

I can't remember what 718 was about ? I can't remember a member vs non member thing ?
Most non members that lurk might eventually join, if the community spirit of the forum is kept.
The odd dig only enhances the place in my opinion.
Some topics are contentious, and will bring out the worst in people both on the forum and elsewhere. Some will inevitably go overboard but that shouldn't reflect on the open spirit of the discussion.
It is a public forum, not a Q@A page. Or is it supposed to be?
Yes there are groups within groups but that is to be expected.

The biggest group of all is the fair minded, generous and knowledgeable group of people within the EO "family". These are truly exceptionally nice people, and I would hate to see anything reflected back at this group of both members and non members.

I've been moderated a few times. It doesn't hurt...much :))

Well said and I agree whole heartedly... I think we all have upset some people in one way or another with posts...but there is never a reason to be spiteful.

I find it unfortunate that some would use the forum as a reason to NOT contribute as a member and believe this to be a lame excuse. If the potential member cannot see past the forum as being a public forum and with that, you get good and bad sometimes, then we may be better off.

Seriously I dont believe this could ever be someone's motivation to not be a member and the remarks are simply in spite.

The forum is about 5% of the content here and the resources and information available should be a draw card whether you like or dislike the forum.

So in a nut shell, if someone is that vague that they choose not to join Exploroz due to the forum, then did they really want to join in the first place? Has the site truly lost anything?

Personally I love the site and appreciate the work done of David, Michelle and others that make my membership here rewarding.

Thank you.

Matt.

D & M, I echo the sentiments of all those who have posted before me.

Over a fairly long period I have found the forum to be a wealth of information right back to when I was really "wet between the ears" preparing for my first Outback experience.
With the help of forum contributors, that trip of 8000kms, mostly Outback tracks, went like oiled silk.
Without that help I am sure that my vehicle, camper tarile r& equipment preparation would hav eleft a lot to be desired, as my only prior off road experience was in the Victorian High Country.
Unfortunately, recently the forum has become a bit more like a chat room with opposing factions & too many OT posts.

I will most certainly join if it returns to the 'good old days'.

This is definitely the most comprehensive & informative site for both 4WDs & off road travel available, & for that I sincerely thank the site owners.

My two bobs worth!!!

In the main I have found the forum to be a great source of help for one who has trouble holding a spanner.

The sense of humour has also been great.

And yes I agree negative and rude remarks are not really needed on the forum. Its everyones choice to disagree but you don't have to off the deep end to make a point.

PS The fishing is terrible at the moment at Agnes Water...Yeh, I know,,,its a negative comment, but the fishing is, you know!

Regards Bob

Totally agree with your sentiments David. I am not a member but a "watch & listen" type of person.
Have considered joining but put off by the persons who think it is funny to post smartarse replys to any reasonable question. These persons seem to have nothing else to do all day than sit in front of their computer and make their inane supposedly "smart replys" they also involve themselves in very poor & smutty "in jokes"which make no sense to anybody who is not in their little clique.
Fortunately the main offenders are in the minority and most on this forum do have some common sense and often go out of their way to assist others. Totally agree with what you indicated IF YOU DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING CONSTRUCTIVE TO ADD TO THE THREAD --STAY OUT OF IT. Think I have got it all of my chest now but been itching to say something for a while.
Will go back into my box now. Thanks for letting me express my opinion.

Hello David and Michelle
It would be a huge injustice if a few spoil it for you. Mind you that's the way it always is isn't it? - the minority stuffs up a good thing and the majority suffer.
You've obviously put a lot of work into creating a unique and very informative site. Much appreciated.
For what they're worth here are my views on the forum:
(a) An increased level of moderation would be good thing.
Perhaps cropping out some of the useless OT posts would be a good start. Or limit them to a particular day, like you have with the Friday funnies (which I'll come to in a minute)
(b) When the members who know each other start toing and froing with inane "personal" comments it simply sucks.
(c) For what I perceive to be a family forum venue some of the Friday funnies are bordering on being "red card" posts. I suggest smut should be banned.
(d) Member v non-member - yeah well that one regularly raises its ugly biased head. Each can contibute worthwhile content. If I choose to miss out on the goodies that are available to members and remain as I am then members should respect my right to do so. David and Michelle do so surely members can too!
Cheers from the Moose

David & Michelle. I agree with most of what is said, but it takes all to make a world. No one should be rude on the Forum, and all should try to achieve this. What is wrong with an occasional joke though. I enjoy them I must admit. It is a bit lame if you can not take a tounge in cheek remark, if I make a typo I can laugh at myself, as others can, I do not mind. Matter of fact the joke in the thread was a ripper, the slanging after was what was ridiculous, and it all started with the thread submitter. All should read the forum ethics and adide as much as they can. Can you not just edit the comments that stray from these ethics (I suppose others would not see that as good, but it would suit me fine)? The remainder of the Forum had information that may be useful to others. Regards tony

It is about time some home truths were spoken by you David and Michelle, I hear comments about some of the rubbish that is not very complimentary to the forum. There are times when some of the contributions are right out of control and you do need to pull it back in line to ensure it remains worth while to belong to!!! It is not some private little chat room belonging to just a few. BobV

I presume the blocked post was about the 5" lift on the LandCruiser. Sadly the most useful reply was that he should go to another site - he posted exactly the same question elsewhere and got very good replies and was treated like a human being.

I was hoping this would come up - moderate and get rid of theforum bullies and abuse on Exploroz.

Phil

Hi All

I reckon a little bit of Agro now and again is good, it helps the
Forum from Stagnating as it tends to do, every so often, I dont
like Name Calling ect, and the Them and Us Attitude is a Bore,
I love the Mine is Better than yours Syndrome, and you cant help
the Bad Taste some Members and Visitors have by owning
Toyotas, and Waeco Fridges ect lol lol. and alas every body cant live
in Queensland.


Cheers
Daza

Hi DM & MM.

Thanks for highlighting this - everyone needs to be reminded occasionally.

The whole site would be less useful without the forum and the site would lose significant traffic volume. I personally don't mind flicking past inappropriate comments but the wider community demands a certain level of moderation. We'll support whatever actions you need to take.

Cheers

All forums are equal...................but some are more equal than others.

Said it many times, nothing is gained by jumping on people for asking a genuine question, all it does is put them off asking anything again, and yes David your spot on about the member non member issue, there is a definite trend here that if your a member your "more entitled" to your say than any one else, hope the non perpitrators dont take offence at that remark but I believe thats part of the issue, unfortunately theres some folk who believe thier always right and anyone elses opinion is stupid, what they fail to realise is there are MANY who read the threads not just the guy they are having a pop at..........
sorry for the ramble,
Dave

Not before time David & Michelle...I find it interesting seeing so many names not often seen on the forum, in reply to this post. Thank you...and now I shall go and renew my membership which is due.
Maybe your bottom line should be at the top of each new post.

Fred.

I belong to a few forums , travel, cruise etc and there will always be the insulting contributor who can hide behing a nom de plume and a keyboard. Agression will always be present on forums and some moderators are very strict and never tolerate inappropriate behaviour, they simply bar or ban for a period.

I work with someone who was not game to ask questions on a forum for fear of attack. She returned from a trip and posted a report and received so much feedback and thanks. I wanted to jump on and say we almost didn't get any report because of her fear.

Many bullies just want you to bite back and it must frustrate them to no end if you reply nicely rather than resort to a session of dispute and insult.

Many posters must be drunk when they put fingers to keyboard as they certainly couldn't be that insulting sober.

When we are not able to see body language it's hard to judge a persons reaction to a comment we might write.

This is a wonderful forum and I like to contribute where possible and I have learned to ignore the insults and smart ass comments.

I didn't see the post{wish i did} but talkin about putting your foot down David must of been bad.cheer's GREENDOG

Finally something has been said! Have been a member since 2002 and this is my first post in yonks. I have watched this forum degrade over the years thanks to a minority that think they run the joint and use the place as their own chat room. I hope the forum returns to what it used to be, a great conduit of knowledge sharing, and then I won't have to think long and hard when the renewal comes up later this year. I will watch with interest to see if this thread has any impact.

I think the worst thing on this site is the nasty bully response to a question from an innocent new poster .

A guy the other day posted that picture of the mud hole map of Australia.

Here was a guy, probably fairly new to the Forum and he wanted to contribute something.

I new he was going to cop it, so I tried to head it off and said the picture was excellent but had been posted a couple of times already.

But it didn't help. Someone still came in with a nasty post that must have crushed the guy.

I think we all have to be more understanding in situations like that.

Willie.

Ok...Ok.....
Ill take the blame.
It was me.
I was the one who said...
"Toyota patrol Hahahaha"
and in turn were called...
"a stupid moron" for my lack of consideration.


Firstly.....
David and Michelle,
I appologise for not using more consideration to this persons fellings , at that stage it was never meant to cause offense.
Just a bit of fun.
I had no idea it was going to turn into this and regret any problems it may have caused your buisness. Im sorry

But......
There are a lot of people on this site that enjoy pulling the proverbial out of each other...its a bit of a mateship thing....It used to be the Australian way?

With a site this big and the diversity of people you get, there will always be arguments that get heated. So maybe a moderator wouldnt be such a bad idea?
But doesnt it take two to tango?
If someone doesnt like the thread they could always just click the mouse......
I think the do gooders who come in at the nearly ended heated debate and throw in comments like settle down you idiots,...you are a bully,...you always do this...etc etc are as much to blame as they keep it going and even fire it up.
All people are different and some find things offensive that others dont. If you are a person who get offended easily, say so, most people will appologise.
As for the boys club thing......
If I was a sensitive person Id feel on the outer now! Does that make the majority of ( dare I say) non-members jumping on the band wagon now a boys club?

Lets just move on...
Anyone for a group hug??
( that is members, non-members, males, females and anyone I may have left out)

I retract all ( except the appology) the above comments if anyone found them offensive.

Luv Ya
Hairy

As a rule, I don't pay to join web forums.

Thats because theres no guarantee you'll get what you paid for.

It may take just ONE "mooderator" having a bad hair day - who is a radical lamd rights for gay whales supporter and doesnt agree with yourt politics and you banned- money gone and no refunds.

To me thats outright theft - as a result i madeapolicy never to pay to join forums.

I run my forums for free & dont see why others can;t do likewise.

Thats just my opinion born of experience, I equate it too:-

If you don't want a punch in the jaw - don't lead withyourt chin!

Sory of this runs counter to forum policy - I consider any forum without worthwhile content to be dead - hence good contrinutors make a good firum.

That should be payment enough for the forum owner IMHO.

Obviously others have divergent opinions on this matter - all l ask is that we agree to disagree and move on - remaining civl.

I don't think I was a contributor to the thread in question.

Cheers

All popular forums need moderation at times. Given the differing backgrounds and experiences of the contributors, why would this forum be any different? The sooner, the better.

Post 62718 was a train wreck in slow motion. It was only ever going to go one way - down. Glad I stayed right away from it, for a change :)

I understand your frustration David. You have built a wonderful and unique web site. The information available is fantastic. You have a real quandary. The forum brings a lot of regulars to the site, some of whom then contribute to the overall value via topics, blogs and places entries (to mention a few). They also add value by sharing experience and knowledge via the forum.

Some of us (and I am one) also use the forum as a form of entertainment; a replacement for TV (not hard to beat that these days) and to some extent, human contact.

The forum and its contributors add real value to the site. It also detracts and in some cases turns away potential members or regular visitors (almost as important as members in some respects). I've sometimes thought 'why do you bother with the forum', but of course without it, the site would lose a great deal of it's appeal and value.

I've been a member for a few years. When I'm at home, I visit the site on most days. When away travelling, I visit on average a couple of times a week (often via mobile broadband). But in the past 12 months or so, I post much less. I've never been seriously abused, but I've read some stuff I regard as seriously objectionable and unacceptable. Very early on, I tried to intervene in some of the nonsense, but quickly learned that normally has little effect and can often just give the protagonists another excuse to post their vitriol. On a couple of occasions I've used feedback to alert you to particular threads. Now I generally just ignore it and don't return to that thread.

I have also developed a short list of posters to ignore. If I see a thread started by them, I rarely open it. Sure I might miss some good threads, but I think the process serves me well. If I come across them elsewhere, I ignore them and rarely read their posts.

At its best, this forum is a wonderful place. Great and generous people, with wonderful information and experience. At it's worst, it is a nasty place with battling egos and bleep contests that just turn me off.

My late dad used to say ' If you have nothing good to say, say something intelligent. If you can do neither, say nothing at all' Good advice. In this more modern age, something I have tried to drum into my kids (now grown), is 'Don't say anything in chat rooms, SMS etc that you would not be prepared and happy to say face to face with the other person'.

As you know, moderation is a fine judgement call. Allowing healthy and informative debate, but seeking to prevent personal abuse and offensive posts. Something I have seen work on other sites is a 'sin bin'. If someone breaks your 'code of conduct', you ban them from posting for a week. Second offence maybe a month. Third offence gone for good. How effective is that? Can they just re join using a different name? Well you would know the answer to that better than me.

In an ideal world, enough of us would just ignore the offensive posters and they would end up talking to themselves (or each other), but their posts would still be part of the history and character of this site. In an case, this is not an ideal world.

A long winded post I know - and doesn't say much. But I got to have my say, and hopefully did not offend anyone in the process.

Keep up the good work David and Michelle. It is appreciated and worthwhile (though it might not always seem so).

Norm C

I never read the post but nothing like putting it straight David and Michelle.

Can I just say one thing that there are the odd few on here that are out to push buttons (and Ill emphasis that a few could be just 1 or 2) and I for one really hate because when you see that they have replied you know they are out to cause issues and say things that are totally unneccessary) that especially when it gets to the point that alerting the moderator gets a reply of "we'll look into it".

Im one for "idle chit chat" but we all are at the best of times I guess, and this is more so with the non / members that are regulars that know what can be said and not said to each other.
But like someone said - body language is not visible and makes it hard for those who we dont know so well.
I know what Kev or Willem (and Bucky too for that matter) is saying for example and I can picture his facial expressions as if he was talking to me....but say...moose or footy..not so much coc I dont "talk to them as much. We just gotta take it easy....

Everytime my membership is up for renewal I question doing it and Ive only been a member for nearly 3 yrs, although I know that if I dont it makes it harder to research travelling stuff! (not that Im travelling much now anyway and if I do its only to the shops!)

Thanks for the reminder to behave ourselves....

I know i have been guilty of some useless replies so i will try to only give 4x4 related meaningful replies from now on .

I often trawl about looking into other sites. None match this. Even WITH the negative inputs.
My membership is a gesture really. No other aspects interest me mutch. I sometimes look at the Trader section.
The Forum is very special in its structure and comradery.

A bit of a 'pulling into line' is certainly nice to see, but still it's a good place to be most of the time... lurking or joining in.

People who haven't joined because they don't like a few nasties..... join and change the mix!

Cheers Royce

David and Michelle

I think with all the responses above (i haven't the time to read all the comments) that you have the support of the majority of members and contributors in what you have said today.

ExplorOz is the best forum i visit, for both information sharing and entertainment - some really interesting, witty and talented people here. I have had some real laughs at the wit and would not like that to go - even if these hilarious posts are not high on information value. People who post happy and witty posts are telling us all something about themselves - all good. People who post unpleasant words are only saying something about themselves and showing their true colours to all the world.

I choose what posts to read and which to leave. While i believe in the principals of free speech, i have in some cases used the alert moderator button, and even got cranky and snarled just a bit in a reply.

Since returning from four months holiday, i have noticed a bit more of the unpleasantness so i totally support your moderation; just let the thread or offending section disappear and if you see it fit, block the poster, although he is doing more damage to his (being generic his/her) reputation that to your business or to other forum members and contributors.

Keep up the good work.

Motherhen
ExplorOz enthusiast

Yes, David and Michelle. First of all I cannot recomend explor oz high enough to other people...It is my number 1 site most nights. However when I posted a thread ,the responses Questioned my mentality, driving style,holiday planning,etc... I simply wanted a response to give me an indication to what the problem might be.. I wish you both the best of luck controlling the situation.

As a member of this and a number of other forums they all seem to have a blow up once in a while. Those that have non nonsense moderators seem to suffer less. After warnings the perpetrator/s is/are sent to the sin bin for a while.

Whilst I believe forums should be uncensored there is a big difference in playing the man rather than the ball.

My skin has thickened over the years on forums and I just let smart comments go through to the keeper.

I love the content on this forum as it is invaluable when planning big trips.
The owners have my support in how they manage it.

Congratulations to David & Michelle on taking this position to protect their investment of money and time……the biggest thank-you we can send them is to respect what they have given us!

This site is unparallel in terms of a resource for travel information, trip planning, trips, market place and forum for exchange of views and ideas. And there is no doubt that this has come at great cost to the Exploroz team, both measured in financial terms and the time they have committed to giving Australia this great resource.

As a community of four-wheel drivers each and every time we get into our vehicles we will be judged by the broader community on the way we conduct ourselves. Much the same can be said about this forum.

And bear in mind that it is a resounding endorsement of this site that people come here to ask a question or seek help; it is important we show them they came to the ‘right’ place whether it be their first or 100th time. The reason it is so good is that we have people contributing with a wealth of knowledge across almost any subject you would care to choose.

Tolerance, an understanding that others may differ in opinion and politeness, that’s all it takes…..

Thanks David & Michelle and all the team at Exploroz!

Baz..The Landy

Thank you David and Michelle for raising the issue. Maybe a cathartic thread?

I too get a sense that the tone of this forum has been shifting recently and the number of replies to this thread from 'non-regular' contributors and names I haven't seen on the forum for a while, would indicate that others think so as well.

My concern with some of the aggression is not so much whether it puts people off signing up (although I appreciate its importance), but I wonder how many people (members or not) have something great to contribute but are put off posting for fear of the response. I would hate to think that someone has a gem of information or the exact answer to a question gained from hard experience but sits on it rather than risk ridicule or abuse. Even worse I hope that fear of asking the 'dumb' question doesn't turn itself into a serious accident or a SAR case. If it did you could be guaranteed that someone would post about it and we would all shake our heads and wonder, "what those people were thinking?"

I don't kid myself that my knowledge and contributions are enough to stop the world, but like Roachie and some others on this thread, my response has been to avoid posting in recent times even on those (rare) occasions when I might be able to help.

My opinion only, but it would be great if we could try to remember what the site and forum are about. Like many, I set my forum page up in order of most recent comments. It is pretty disappointing to watch a great trip report slide quickly to page three and beyond into archive oblivion, while 'discussions' on photography of naked children, gun laws, walking the dog and real estate prices get over a thousand hits and keep their top billing on the first page for ages. Important topics in their own right, bit it just makes me wonder where the focus of the forum is at times.

No way I am letting my membership lapse, winning a prize (thanks guys) and the discount on the Tambo have paid for it for many years to come. But like many I suspect, the tendency will be to become an observer rather than an active contributor. No loss, many of you will observe :-)

Welcome back to some of the names we haven't seen for a while, I hope you all come back off the sidelines and onto the field of play, your contribution might be the one that saves my day or helps to keep my family safe when travelling.

Cheers,

Matt.

Obviously this thread has struck a nerve because I can't recall seeing this many responses.

I for one must say that I have thoroughly enjoyed becoming a member of this site.

I have learnt so much from both the information contained within the site and information responded to in the forum. I haven't been abused in any of my forum questions (touch wood) but then again, I try to respect everyone when reading or replying to threads. I have also saved many dollars from forum responses.

I'm not an expert when it comes to travelling and off roading and don't profess to be however, I will try to give any information I may have if and when suitable questions are raised. I know there can be some people who appear to thrive on antagonising others at times but I merely race over these responses and get to the information and learning experience.

Please don't change the site because of a minority. Too many things are changed in this beautiful country we enjoy because of a minority.

Happy camping and happy posting.

Cheers.

David and Michelle .....

Its your site, and a good one at that ... run it how you want.

I know I'm guilty of responding to antagonists in kind, so I'll hang my head in shame along with rest.

Missed the deleted thread tho I think. If it was about suspension mods ... as a general point ... Why shouldnt someone post it on this forum ???. The more 4wd forums you post a question in, the more chance of getting some useable info. There might be a "towing" reason for not doing a particular suspension mod ... What better forum than this one to learn it from.

A while back, From ThreadID: 57709 ( covering much of this threads points ), I provided a suggestion .....

>> AnswerID: 304631 Submitted: Monday, May 19, 2008 at 02:28

>>Perhaps, what might be useful on this forum too, is a monthly thread which can be used for drivel and banter. Have seen >>it work well elsewhere.

The thread as suggested above could be a free for all thread which was deleted monthly. It could also serve as a chat facility ... which I believe is a nescessity ... on this forum. Additionally, comments about other posts could be brought up in the free for all thread, instead of ... and without affecting the original thread. e.g. " Did you see someone posted up that 'bleep' mud puddle again " ( I think its a great photo btw ... lol )

Many of the members and non-members are known to each other ( obviously ) and use this forum for regular contact. Hardly surprising, when you consider that without this forum, that aquaintance or friendship might never have occurred. Also a lot of people are linked because of what the forum contains e.g. vehicles, hobbies, locations, destinations .... attitudes ( LOL ) etc.

I do see a need for a campfire carry on facility as private messaging to one member is not the same as eliciting a response from the group.

Blue Box for comment ... Orange Box for replys ... perhaps a test of this proposal might be in order ????

It's funny to see this thread as i very seldom visit anymore and gave up any idea of becoming a member years ago.

The forums fantastic number of replies means it is very hard to find something relevent as the posts get scrolled back to old pages.

I can't use the search effectively. I type in "best landcruiser suspension" and i get pages of anything that refers to one of the terms. That's why newb's post "stupid" questions and then get flamed for their efforts. If I go to a different forum I can easily see where the suspension topic is and bingo - I've found it and i'm happy.

If I want OT's and soapboxing i'll go down to the pub, get a taxi or open up my spam folder. I don't beleive you'll ever get rid of it - that's why forums have sections.

FWIW you as a company ARE judged by the people you hang out with. And if that's a good ol' boys club and their soapbox then....

Best of luck. I wonder if it'll be different next year when i pop in to see what's going on.

Couldn't agree more David very well said and i hope you succeed, Me, i started out as a member on this site, Baz (NSW) I used to orginise forum gatherings, i even orginised the first National Gathering at Birdsville and the first NSW gathering at Bendethra, i used to love this forum, one of the reasons i didn't renew my membership was the constant jibes and abuse from asking questions about the vehicle i owned at the time (Ford Explorer) i just got sick of it, (it's only funny the first 100 times) so when i got the Landy (that's Land Rover not Cruiser) it was on again, i don't rib people about their car, so why do it to me.

I don't ask for advice on here anymore, for anything, i go to product specific forums now.

I mainly surf it now and add a comment when someone needs it.

I'm a paid member of AULRO, THAT WILL DO ME.

Personnally i don't think it will change, but hey, ya never know.

Baz.

Good on you David,

I am another one who posts a lot less to the forum these days. As much as I have enjoyed the forum in the past and have benefitted from the information thereon, I am very tired of the rabid personal attacks by a few and have decided to let my membership lapse when it next comes up.

My last post requesting info had only one response from someone with relevant knowledge and a lot of drivel from people "warning" me about the rash decision I was about to take based on their opinon of a vehicle that they had never owned.

Regards

Pete

David & Michelle

Well done, I congratulate you on your post. The follow ups and replies seem to tell a story all of their own. Not one (well with one exception) has come from the group that IMVHO are the main perpetrators. Many however from grateful contributors that may have not felt comfortable about the response from this ratbag minority and therefore have held back for some time.

Best wishes
ob