1HZ Oil For Turbo

Flywest,
Just a few friendly questions:

#1 How relevant is a 13 year old Caltex article, given Caltex CXJ is no longer available, and we've moved to low sulphur fuel, and we've moved on from CG-4.

#2 How common are big end bearing failures in the 1Hz? Toyota sold them for 17 years and I haven't heard of any.

#3 Can you point me to some evidence that engine oil can make a difference to the likelihood of a turboed 1Hz cracking pistons?

Cheers
Phil

[quote]
Flywest,
Just a few friendly questions:

#1 How relevant is a 13 year old Caltex article, given Caltex CXJ is no longer available, and we've moved to low sulphur fuel, and we've moved on from CG-4.

#2 How common are big end bearing failures in the 1Hz? Toyota sold them for 17 years and I haven't heard of any.

#3 Can you point me to some evidence that engine oil can make a difference to the likelihood of a turboed 1Hz cracking pistons?

Cheers
Phil
[/quote]

Phil,

Am I answering your 3 friendly questions or explaining for you what you didn't read or understand in the links I posted?

1. The vehicle described is over 13 years old and designed for a specific oil - with more than 3000 ppm calcium, which fas a pacifying effect on the babit or big end bearings

Thats why the article is relevant - it refers to oils for that age & make of vehicle!

Re - Low sulphur fuel & Newer Oils. The newer oils add packs have been designed to reduce the amount of calcium drastically, largely because of it's deleterious effects on catalytic converters of newer vehicles, which this old vehicle doesn't have & the calciums been replaced with magnesium.

From my post above:-

[quote]
The oil sold in Japan typically has calcium based detergents in it at levels of 3000-4500+ppm (parts per million) this is a very detergent oil compared to a lot of oils formulated for american engines (700-2500+ppm magnesium based detergents, [B]magnesium based detergent is thermally unstable at normal working temps of a japanese diesel engine[/B] that is why it is not used in japanese OEM oils) as a side benefit extreme levels of calcium have a very strong bearing pacifying affect reducing the bearings susceptibility to chemical attack by its own oil which contributes to the onset of subsurface fatigue failures.
Synthetic oil per-se is not a fix (or prevention method) you want an oil with low or no magnesium and preferably in excess of 3000+ppm calcium based detergents. [/quote]

Our new oils are replacing the calcium with magnesium based detergents, which are unstable in the old Japanese diesels at their hotter operating temps.

In short the newer oils actually arent good for the OLDER Japanese diesel engined vehicles.

2. #2 How common are big end bearing failures in the 1Hz? Toyota sold them for 17 years and I haven't heard of any.

This vehicle described in this thread and hence my reply - is an after market turbo kit fitted vehicle - thus my comments refer specifically to his vehicle, not the naturally aspirated vehicle engine you describe in question 2!

Why quote me out of context?

These engines werent designed for a turbo - they don't have the heat shedding design elements of a purpose designed turbo engine in that - they don't have the oil squirters under the piston crown to take the heat away and dissipate it via and external oil cooler.

Likewise the big end bearings, con rods and gudgeon pins arent upsized to cope with turbo thrust

The piston tops are not ceramic coated to cope with the heat!

Remember, excess heat destroys the magnesium present in these newer oil which was put there to replace the bearing pacifying calcium, heat is the enemy of the new oils and wehave turboed an engine without the heat reduction technology built into it!

The biggest failures in after market turboed 1HZ engines is the big ends!

To see this with your own eyes - grab a copy of the free DVD on the front of 4wdAustralia's current magazine and see Ruthys engine being rebuilt where they SHOW the differences!

Becauise you havent heard of any naturaly aspirated engines problems doesnt surprise me - we are however talking hereof after market turboed ones and their problems are legion mostly heat related, which when you understand the design defect and related oils issue isnt at all surprising!

#3 Can you point me to some evidence that engine oil can make a difference to the likelihood of a turboed 1Hz cracking pistons?

As stated above grab the DVD and watch it and be educated.

I have provided you with the info - I COULD go get the virgin oil analysis results showing the rediced calcium and ncreased magnesium based detergents etc from BTITOG website (Bob IS The Oil Guy) www.bitog.com & i could post the used oil analysis results from out 2 turbo diesel enginesusing these new synthetics oils like Mobile Delvac 1 - were we are getting elevated sulphation niration and Oxidation results from two independednt labs one here in WA Westrac and one USA (Oil Guard), bu- do you know how to read the Used Oil Analysis results?

What I CAN tell you is that [B] the ONLY mineral based oil I've found available here in Oz that meets the calcium requirement of those particular Japanese designed diesel engines with turbos (i.e. 3000+ ppm Calcium & low Magnesium) - is Pennzoil Diesel Engone Long Life 15 W 40.[/B]

I got this info by searching the library post of Virgin Oil Analysis results atthe BITOG web forums!

It seems to me that the more one knows - the more threatened some posters feel and the more one gets quoted out of context - & offensive (to me) posts suggesting to ignore my advice etc- becauseI've quoted something irrelevant etc.

Whats the point - it appears to me this is just a general travellers web forum where REAL & Knowlegeable responses to questions asked are not wanted - regardless whether they are backed up with facts or not.

I don't HAVE to waste my time here if the info is not wanted - there are other forums where people who genuinely want to know the real answers to their questions can ask and get that advice from me.

Management and membership don't appear appreciate my contributions here at all - so this is my last post on any topic!

Anyone who wants REAL advice from someone who knows the answers and can explain them & back them with facts, will seek me out elsewhere, when they can't get the answers they seek here, due to poor management and moderation, Phil.

The owners and mods set the tone here and it's not up to my standards, another reason I would never pay to be a member here & be treated this way - so I'm outta here!

Cheers - can't say it has been fun.

Flywest,

If I were you I'd keep quiet about a Roothy DVD as your source of any technical info!

I am disappointed that you dislike this forum. You get very angry when someone disagrees. I've just seen that one of your posts got deleted because of abuse you dish out, but the moderators are trying to stamp out abuse and promote reasoned discussion. If you think that abuse is acceptable when discussing oils on any forum, then you will get moderated.

I read the links you posted 10 years ago. Willem-Jan Markerink from the Netherlands was a regular contributor on the original 80scool email group in the late 1990's when the 1HDT big end problems (in Australia) came to light. Craig Vincent is a New Zealander who has a passion for everything oils, but is not a chemical engineer. The debate about Calcium content, Jap spec oils etc and those big end bearing failures is something that was strongly mooted 10 years ago, but the fact that the problem is SOLVED by fitting AGL bearings (and then later, the modified Toyota bearings) changed most opinions as it indicates that oil had nothing to do with it.

Toyota and the oil companies have simply recommended API grades CD and above for the 1Hz, 1HDT and even the later 1HD-FT and 1HD-FTE, and continue to do so.Caltex never recommended CXJ for Landcruisers and Castrol never recommended J-Max. Are you right and Toyota and the Oil Companies wrong?

Oil does not compensate for bolting a turbo onto a motor that was not designed for it.

Cheers
phil

[quote]Oil does not compensate for bolting a turbo onto a motor that was not designed for it.[/quote]

I never said it did - in fact I posted the opposite- I also had my post suggesting that an after market turbo was a bad idea deleted also - again when i didn't breach the Code of conduct.

Frankly this place sucks.....in my opinion, thats why I'm outta here - can't be fagged with know it alls - who never shut their mouths long enough to give their ears a go and learn something from some one else - obviously your such an expert no one can teach you anyting - you already know it all!!

The DVD section I quoted (roothys DVD) you've obviously not seen. I'm not a fan of his or his magazine (My eldest lad brought it home & as a result I happened to watch it) - however the piece I referenced was a mechanical engineer performing an engine rebuild - demonstrating the difference between toyota engines designed for a turbo and those not - it showed the oil squirters, it showed the bigger con rods and gudgeon pins and it showed the different pistons - in that respect it displayed what I wrote about graphically.

All the same i see you know more than Roothy by your own admission as well - you must be quite the hero then! :rollseyes:

Had enough - stick it where the sun don't shine China - I'm gone - you can continue to provide all the bad advice you want -
and screw up others engines who don't have the discernment capacity to realise your full of it.

Thankfully there are afew out there who actually know enough about oils and test their oil thru a lab on an ongoing basis and so have some credibility when it comes to discussing the subject.

Not interessted in any further p!ssing contests here with the likes of you - nothing to be gained from it.

Cheers & gone!

Just removed my dead 1HZ from the 80 series with 6 cracked pistons. Aftermarket Turbo fitted since new with and good quality synthetic oils used for it's entire life. Died at 310,000 km's.

Even though it lasted as long if not longer than some factory turbo diesel engines I don't think I would ever fit an aftermarket turbo again. Too much strain on a motor not designed for it.

BW

Thanks Phil for a straight forward simple answer.
Regards
Krakka

Plus the 1HD-T big end bearing failures was caused by faulty bearing, not oil type.
What ever oil you use, just make sure you change it every 5000kms.

This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Personal Attacks Rule .

Forum Moderation Team

Seems to me that if its "not your opinion" its wrong.
Mate, there are thousands of turboed 1HZ's that never give a problem(mine for starters), have never heard of one having big end bearing problems(but that dosnt mean that they dont exist).The main problem with 1HD-T's doing big end bearings was dodgy bearings, not oil related.Toyota sourced two suppliers for bearings, one lot were dodgy, one good BUT they couldnt state what bearings went in what engines.
Sure if you dont change oil as required, you may encounter problems.Will happen with any engine.

Fully synthetic oil is not a waste of money Phil, they provide far superior lubrication than mineral and hydroprocessed base oils.

Engines used in the V8 supercars for example wouldn't last very long if they used mineral oils.

Conventional mineral oil derived from crude oil, highly refined (hydroprocessed) mineral oil and ultra refined (severe hydroprocessed) mineral oil are basestocks derived from crude oil pumped from the ground.

Synthetic oil is chemically derived, most often from ethylene gas and do not contain any of the contaminants present in mineral oils, they are pure oils derived from gas.

Mineral base oils contain undesirable materials and despite chemical refinement a significant concentration still remains. This means that additives can't operate to their full extent because the additive has to compete for space with the impurities when they attempt to bond to the base oil molecules. Consequently, the molecular structure of the oil is inconsistent, limiting the performance capabilities and useful life of the blended oil.

Because synthetic oils are pure chemicals themselves they avoid performance limitations. Synthetic technology allows base oil molecules to be specifically designed for particular applications with exact desired viscosity, this superior viscosity will stay in grade.

Because synthetic oils are pure they are kinder to catalytic converters and particulate filters and as they have less internal molecular friction they allow an engine to develop maximum power.

They will also tolerate far superior operating temperatures than mineral oil.

Additionally, they will tolerate extended oil change intervals in excess of 30,000k.

If you change from conventional mineral oil to full synthetic you will notice your engine will run quieter because it is being lubricated in a superior manner to a mineral oil.

Roscoe,
Your responses are considered, respectful and unemotional - well done!
But I still think synthetics are a waste of money on a 1Hz Toyota diesel :-))
I know they are better oils (I use synthetics in our petrol vehicles), but unlike your Grand Cherokee CRD, the 1Hz is a dirty motor. It is old technology and the oil gets black with soot soon after a change, hence the need for frequent changes. The 1Hz has been around since 1990 and is a motor that outlasts its owners if you service it by the book with mineral oils.

Flywest,
No need for abuse, just talk sensible.

Cheers
Phil

I always respect other people's opinions Phil.

I think you have to look at lubrication in terms of it's principal action i.e lubrication of moving parts including the cylinder wall.

I certainly don't don't know much about the 1Hz engine, but I take it, it still principally has the same internal moving parts as any combustion engine that need lubricating.

It could well be that the mineral oil is contributing to the oil getting black so quick in that it is not providing good lubrication of the cylinder wall thereby allowing burnt diesel to contaminate the oil quickly?

Anyway good to see you do use synthetics in your petrol vehicles!!

I also use mineral oil in my 1HD-FT and used it in my old 1HZ turbo.
I think that using a fully synthetic oil is better but I would still be changing it at 5000km due to the soot content like Phil stated so in terms of being a waste of money, it would be for me because I wouldn't be gaining the full potential of the synthetic oil.
I have compromised and I have been using a 10w/40 semi synthetic, which is mainly mineral based. I like the blend of this oil and it is resonably economically viable to be changing it at 5000km as well. I know my 1HDT-FT is not quite as sooty as the pre combustion chamber 1HZ but mine is supposed to run a 10w/30 oil according to manufacturers specifications so the 10w/40 does it for me.
In answer to the original question so long as you don't stray far from the manufacturers specs you will be fine. Stick with or around the 15w/40 grade and the most important issue is the classification like SL SM CH CI etc. The later the better. The later the classification the later the design of the oil is. I wouldn't be using a 20w/50 or higher blend these days. The lower the viscosity the better the fuel economy which is a big issue these days.
All the best with the varied answers.
Scott

In regards to the 1HD engine big end bearings
Phil is 100% right.
It has nothing to do with the grade of oil used, it was a bad batch of bearings in which toyota didn't make note of which ones went into which engines.
Its the same with the ZD30, they still blow with the correct grade oil. Oops shouldn't have said that.