Access to Aboriginal Lands in N.T. W.A. & S.A.

Submitted: Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 08:29
ThreadID: 65737 Views:3487 Replies:16 FollowUps:35
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Living in Broken Hill (NSW) we don't have this problem. You can usually go anywhere within reason.

Anyway, I have heard that one doesn't need to obtain permits to pass through Aboriginal lands and longer, and that this was one of the things that came out of the intervention process.

For a long time I have believed that this is reverse discrimination, and as I am an Australian citizen, who worked, made a contribution to the community, and paid taxes for the whole of my working life, I should be able to visit or pass through my country (within reason of course).

On one trip we went across the N.T. & W.A. on the Central Road, and obtain 'passports' to do so. This was an experience in itself, and being a former petty bureaucrat, I learned some new things on how to stuff people about.

We call into a cop shop on the way to get directions out one community as all of the signage had been destroyed, and the copper said that they didn't give a stuff about permits, and that anyone was free to use the road. This was a couple of years ago.

Anyway, I'm after any information that may help.
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Reply By: Willem - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 08:46

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 08:46
You need permits to access all aboriginal land in Western Australia and South Australia.

At present there is an Intervetion regime happening on Aboriginal Lands in the Northern Territory and the Permit system has been suspended by the Federal Parliament.

Successive gorvernments over the decades have been voted in my democratic process and these governments have been responsible for the permit access system since the early 1900's.

You get what you vote for.

AnswerID: 347773

Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 15:42

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 15:42
Willem

"At present there is an Intervetion regime happening on Aboriginal Lands in the Northern Territory and the Permit system has been suspended by the Federal Parliament."

I think you will find you are wrong, you still need transit permits to travel certin lands in the NT.

General Permits Information
Aboriginal land is privately owned
Like other landowners in Australia , Aboriginal people have the legal right to grant or refuse permission to people wishing to enter or travel through their land. The permit system is also designed to help protect the privacy of Aboriginal communities, encourage Aboriginal people to be involved in projects on their land, preserve Aboriginal culture, safeguard the natural environment, and promote visitor safety.

Are permits legally required?
Yes. Commonwealth and Northern Territory law says that entry to Aboriginal land requires a written permit. Unauthorised entry to Aboriginal land in the Northern Territory can result in a fine of up to $1000. Permit holders also need to respect the cultural and intellectual property rights of Aboriginal people, particularly in relation to photographs of people

What is Aboriginal land?
Aboriginal land is land for which Aboriginal people hold inalienable freehold title under the Aboriginal Land Rights (NT) Act 1976 . Aboriginal Land Councils have the statutory responsibility to consult with Aboriginal landowners about issuing permits to travel across or enter Aboriginal land.

A considerable part of the Northern Territory is Aboriginal freehold land and requires a permit to enter. This map shows which areas in the CLC area are Aboriginal land.

When will I need a permit?
If you wish to:

Enter Aboriginal land for any purpose
Travel by road through Aboriginal land (Note: this does not apply to public roads),
Enter or visit an Aboriginal community (Note: some exceptions apply)
then you will need to apply for a permit.

Please note that permit requirements apply to all persons visiting Aboriginal communities for work or other purposes on a short or long term basis. This includes travellers, tourists, contractors, hawkers and representatives of any group or company or agency. Government employees do not require permits for work purposes.

Which roads are public roads?
Barkly Hwy
Buchanan Hwy (Dunmarra to WA Border)
Finke Road (Kulgera to Aputula)
Larapinta Drive to Papunya Road
Larapinta Drive ( Alice Springs to Areyonga*)
Lasseter Hwy ( Stuart Highway to Yulara)
Namatjira Drive
Old Andado Road ( Alice Springs to Old Andado via Santa Teresa)
Old South Stuart Highway Palm Valley Road (Hermannsburg to Palm Valley )
Alice Springs to Aputula
Papunya Road ( Tanami Road to Papunya* via Narwietooma)
Plenty Highway ( Stuart Highway to Queensland border)
Sandover Highway ( Plenty Highway to Queensland border)
Simpsons Gap National Park Access Road
Standley Chasm Access Road
Stuart Highway
Tanami Road ( Stuart Highway to WA border, via Yuendumu)
Tanami Mine Lajamanu Road
* Please note that permits are required to visit Areyonga and Papunya communities.

What other roads do not require a permit?
Kata Tjuta Road (within Uluru – Kata Tjuta National Park )
Boggy Hole (via Hermannsburg and Ellery Creek )
What if I just want to buy fuel?
You may visit the following community stores on Aboriginal land without a permit for the purpose of buying fuel and supplies:

Yuendumu on Tanami Road
Hermannsburg (Ntaria) on Larapinta Drive , and
Utopia (Arlparra) and Ampilatwatja on the Sandover Highway .
You may also visit the art centre and heritage precinct in Hermannsburg and the Warlukurlangu Art Centre in Yuendumu without a permit.

What if I am travelling into SA or WA?
If you intend to enter the Anangu Pitjantjatjara lands in South Australia you need to call Anangu Pitjantjatjara Land Council on 8954 8104 regarding a permit. If you intend to enter the Ngaanyatjarra lands in Western Australia you need to call Ngaanyatjarra Council on 8950 1711 .

Want to check conditions of the roads?
Road conditions in the Territory can change rapidly. To check road conditions call 1800 246 199 (within Australia ) or check online at www.roadreport.nt.gov.au .

For more information on safe driving visit http://www.nt.gov.au/transport/safety/road/priorities/visitor/drivingtips.shtml

Need help?
To find out if you will need a permit for your planned trip please consult this map. The map shows which roads and communities require a permit. If you are not sure please contact the Central Land Council on +61 (08) 8951 6320 or permits

Applying for a Permit
How do I apply for a permit?
You can apply for a permit online above. Forms may be downloaded from the website. Alternatively, the CLC Permit Officer will provide you with a permit application form upon request. Please fill in the necessary details. Permits may be emailed or faxed to you.

Do people travelling with me in the same vehicle all require separate permits?
No. People travelling together in the same vehicle are included on a single permit. This is issued to the nominated driver of the vehicle. The names of all passengers must be listed on your permit application.

Is there a charge?
No. All permits are issued free of charge. Please note: A charge of $2.20 applies for the Mereenie Tour Pass booklet to recover printing costs.

What if I break down?
In the event of accident or breakdown stay with your vehicle and stay in the shade.

Still have questions?
Please contact the Central Land Council on +61 (08) 8951 6320 or permits


Cheers

Richard
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Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 15:43

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 15:43
IMPORTANT NOTE:

The previous Australian government made changes to how permits apply inside communities. The main changes are that permits are not required to enter ‘common areas' (areas generally considered to be public space), or to attend a court case, inside communities.

These changes legally came into effect on 18 February 2008.

The new Australian government's policy is to abolish these changes but allow permit free access for journalists and contractors. At this stage it is not clear when that policy might be implemented.

During this interim period, the CLC requests that all visitors to Aboriginal land comply with the CLC's permit system as outlined below, notwithstanding that the legal position has changed with regard to certain community access.

Regardless of any government changes, a permit is legally required to visit any Aboriginal land outside of communities . Also see the CLC map for which access roads require a permit.

The CLC thanks all visitors for cooperation with this request of traditional owners to continue to follow the principle of asking permission before entering Aboriginal land. If you have any questions about the permit system please contact the CLC on permits
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Follow Up By: Willem - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 16:01

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 16:01
Ahhh...... the Mighty CLC.....a government in its own right...or so it thinks.


Yer a bit of a worry Richard......................



Cheers
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Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 02:23

Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 02:23
why's that?
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Reply By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 09:02

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 09:02
Hi
One point that I would like to mention here is

WHO PAYS FOR THE MAINTENANCE AND UPKEEP OF ALL ROADS IN PERMIT REQUIRED ABORIGINAL LANDS??? AUSTRALIAN TAXPAYERS MONEY!

We are the ones that are discriminated against. I could not tell you how many times I have tried to get permits to travel trough remote aboriginal lands, only to be declined, because these are aboriginal use roads only.

Who built the roads in the first place, not aboriginals, they use them for their own advantage.

I can here the outcry if we charged aboriginal people to travel into our towns on on our main roads - and we are all supposed to be equal. If the permit system was scrapped, I do not think that there would be an influx into aboriginal lands, as for the average person, these places are too remote and it is only the true die hard four wheel drive enthusiast that likes to get out to the remotes areas.

My trip for this year, I am up to 10 permits for various areas. Sure they are free, but we have never in the past been asked to show them. It is my Murphy's Law that if we did not have them, we would be asked and the book thrown at us for not having them

That's my ten cents worth.

Cheers

Stephen
Simpson Desert Colours

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AnswerID: 347775

Follow Up By: Willem - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 09:32

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 09:32
Nah, its only worth 2 cents, Stephen.


You have to live with it or you can ignore it. Its your choice!


Cheers
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Follow Up By: Matt Watson - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 10:08

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 10:08
"US" and "THEM" is the kind of attitude which is the problem.

I don't really agree with the permit system, they should either be given the land as private property ( and then it becomes an asset, meaning no more handouts ), or it should be just like any other public property.

The roads should either be public property for everyone to use, or private property for the owners to do what they want with.

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Reply By: Member - Dennis P (Scotland) - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 09:59

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 09:59
Geez, we are are a strange lot.
We push the 'original' Aussies into the most remote, worthless piece/s of the country and then have the hide to whinge about having to apply to pass through the same country.
We have the hide to assume that we are the only ones that pay taxes to maintain the roads through these areas.
The 'cop' that told you that needs re-educating to say the least.
Does not relate to whom we elected to represent us, more about a matter of respect.


My 1 cents worth.


AnswerID: 347785

Follow Up By: Best Off Road - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 10:06

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 10:06
Dennis,

You have vastly undervalued the worth of your contribution.

Cheers,

Jim.

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Follow Up By: Willem - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 13:00

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 13:00
Dennis

Rounding makes your contribution worthless.


Hahahahahahahaha....................
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Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 10:18

Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 10:18
AnswerID: 347785 Submitted: Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 09:56
Member - Dennis P (Scotland)

"We push the 'original' Aussies into the most remote, worthless piece/s of the country and then have the hide to whinge about having to apply to pass through the same country."


Response:

Whilst I agree that relocation and landuse by white settlement has caused some major changes ... and difficulties.

Lets not forget that in general - the areas requiring permits are under the "care" of the family groups that lay claim of up to 40,000yrs (?) of unsubstantiated cultural attachment / inhabitation of those areas.

If they had been "pushed" there ... It would just be a piece of land of no significance and permits would not be required.
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Reply By: Member - Dennis P (Scotland) - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 10:22

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 10:22
Thanks, Jim, lol.
Many rewrites/edits to tone it down.

Cheers,
Dennis

AnswerID: 347792

Reply By: Member - Mfewster(SA) - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 10:32

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 10:32
It's not reverse discrimination, its just an attempt to try to balance the needs of peoples with basically incompatible cultures. I can't think of any place in the world where the problems of trying to respect an indigenous culture when it is invaded has worked smoothly. It took the English and the Normans something like 300 years to settle down together and their initial cultures were much closer than indigenous Australian and European. For an introduction to the issues and some understanding of what really has to be dealt with, try Alan Morsehead's book, "The Fatal Impact." it's based on European/South Sea Island cultural interaction, but the examples it uses will help.
AnswerID: 347793

Follow Up By: Breakerman - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 10:48

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 10:48
Mfewster,
The equal rights brigade aren't interested in anything much beyond the gut response dressed up in some 'Kath and Kim' pseudo language. If they read at all it will only be to reconfirm the shallowness of their 'grievance'. They like the 'outrage'. They need it. Makes them feel part of something and important.
Beakerman.
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Reply By: Honky - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 10:56

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 10:56
We certainly have reverse descrimination in our area.
This includes Job applications, Education and in criminal law.
Only to happy for someone to prove me wrong.

Honky
AnswerID: 347795

Follow Up By: x - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 11:16

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 11:16
Honky

I guess you are including infant mortality, life expectancy, average family income, disease rates, rates of incarceration etc?
Lucky bastards. They certainly have it all.

Bob
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FollowupID: 616010

Follow Up By: Member - Willie , Sydney. - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 11:54

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 11:54
Mr / Mrs X ,

Whilst recognizing the things you mention exist, I do not see how you can call them reverse discrimination.

Unfortunately a physical alcohol problem, combined with a stone age mentality on life, does not let them fit in with European communities and "our way of thinking".

We have taken 99% of their decent land - at least we should leave them the right of refusal, in the poor bits of desert they have left to them.


Honky,

Your words are not well thought out. Do you call it discrimination when only some people are paid the dole or war pensioners get more than normal pensioners or pensioners get cheap travel and others don't, or .special parking spots for disables people or........................?

Willie.

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Follow Up By: Member - Willie , Sydney. - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 11:55

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 11:55
Sorry Bob, how could i Call you Mrs X !
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Follow Up By: Honky - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 15:02

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 15:02
Willie,

I am not talking about the pension, be it war or any other as I am sure they are not exempt from getting it themselves or the disable parking spaces.
I travel a lot in the north west of NSW in Wilcannia, Dubbo, Bourke, Brewarrina and Walgett.
I can vouch that I have yet come across a Proud savage living off the land.
I am also of the opinion that to expect Australia not to change from 200 years ago is impossible.
If there is no work in an area most people I know leave to go to areas that do have work.
Are not the people that live in the "poor deserts' do so by choice?
I am sure that a Government department would only be to willing to help.
I can go on with further but it would most likely be seen as a redneck rave by the City dwellers.
It should be pointed out that I do not have any recent experience of any other state so my opinion is NSW only.

Honky

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FollowupID: 616062

Follow Up By: x - Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 21:49

Sunday, Feb 08, 2009 at 21:49
Willie

I meant a ;-) after lucky bastards, they certainly have it all.

Bob
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FollowupID: 616463

Reply By: Honky - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 11:25

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 11:25
Maybe a bit redirection of resources would help.
There are so many government departments spending huge amounts on these problems and it is still there.
I am sure you wil find that more money is spend on this area than in any other group.
Maybe the "victims" also need to put in a bit of effort.

Honky
AnswerID: 347801

Reply By: BT- Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 11:42

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 11:42
Basically you need to plan early and get your permit applications going as soon as you can. If your dates change I've found the staff who issue the permits pretty flexible and happy to change your permit dates once it's been issued. The permits were free last time I used them and preferable to chancing a fine which can be around $10000 (?)
To check if you need a permit, ring the office involved, sometimes a little hard to pin down but they'll give you the info required. I think the phone numbers are on this website and also in Hema Map packs.
The arguments re whether we should be required to have permits can get a bit emotive. I agree that it's a pain in the butt but pales into insignificance when you look at the overall problems facing the aboriginal communities.
Living up in Darwin and traveling extensively around the Top End I get to see the problems first hand every day. I'm often left wondering what the solutions are because at present I'm seeing a group of fellow humans mostly wiping themselves out.
I hope you get your permits and enjoy your travels.
Cheers
AnswerID: 347807

Follow Up By: Kumunara (NT) - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 13:59

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 13:59
BT


Well said.

There have been some fairly emotive posts in regard to this issue. Most of the people posting have probably spent very little if any time in any of the remote communities.

There is a lack of opportunity for employment on Aboriginal Communities. Most are however not on the dole. They are involved in the Community Development Employment Program. This is working for the dole.

There are some very good people on the communities who are trying to improve things. Unless there are viable industries that provide real employment opportunities the present socio-economic problems will continue.

I travel extensively through the Katherine Region. I frequently travel to remote communities due to my employment. I am always made welcome. I have never had a problem with the permit system.

I have had dealing with staff at the NT Lands Council. I have never had a problem with them. They have always been helpful but are very busy - put you application in early to give them time to process it.


Tjilpi
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Follow Up By: OzTroopy - Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 09:36

Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 09:36
Kumunara (NT)

Your first point .... agree totally

Your second ... agree with the first part but lets face it - those communities are not located with employment in mind. Good to see the NT CDEP works better than the 15hr per week system in NSW ... where in lots of cases the overseers are friends or family members who just tick and flick attendance records ...

Your third ... Yep some very good people ... but as for expecting businesses to relocate somewhere just to provide jobs is a bit much. A persons choice of living location is their own. There is no requirement for employment / services to be provided by others just because of ones choice of rural living environment. If that were the case one would presume that govt would not be constantly shutting down / reducing services in remote ( and not so remote ) white established townships.

Your fourth ... No doubt the tasks you perform at the communities are desired and therefore facilitate the permit system.

Your fifth ... as with any system .. prior preparation and planning makes any process easier ... And if the contacted agency has their act together ... well and good.
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Reply By: Peter_n_Margaret - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 13:24

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 13:24
The more I learn about the issues, the less I know about the solutions.

Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 Motorhome
AnswerID: 347822

Reply By: madcow - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 14:15

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 14:15
We'ver just got permits for some areas in Wa we are visitng later this year. Basically a pretty simple process that can be done and given out online ONLY if you intend to "Traverse and refuel". There are some closed communities that require specail permission that will take some extra time. also no grog. PITA
AnswerID: 347825

Reply By: Member - Mick O (VIC) - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 15:30

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 15:30
Just a quick clarification on Willems earlier comment about the permit system currently being suspended.

The suspension only relates to the right to enter "some" aboriginal communities (not all). Unfortunately the need for a permit to cross aboriginal land is still in place. Thus you could find yourself in the ironic position of needing a permit to cross the country to get to a community you don't need a permit to enter now!

Only applies to NT communities and some in the tri-state border areas subject to the federal intervention. Don't try and go above the Alligator River in NT because you'll still loose your vehicle.

Cheesr Mick
''We knew from the experience of well-known travelers that the
trip would doubtless be attended with much hardship.''
Richard Maurice - 1903

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AnswerID: 347844

Follow Up By: Willem - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 16:29

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 16:29
Mick

>Don't try and go above the Alligator River in NT because you'll still loose your vehicle.<

Could you please find the link to the legislation that supports what you have said above and post it so we may be enlightened.


Cheers




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Reply By: trainslux - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 15:46

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 15:46
I personally feel that we should not need to gain permits to access roads to remote Australia.

However I spose that by obtaining permits, the authorities can see who is going where, and try to deal with alcohol trafficing etc.
Thats my understanding of why the permits are issued.

Still think that if you apply, you should be automatically given the permit free of charge.

Trains
AnswerID: 347849

Follow Up By: Member - Tony B (Malanda FNQ) - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 17:05

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 17:05
Trains - It does not matter why, if you have too you have too. Why is this an Aboriginal Issue anyway, we have to have permits to enter National Parks as well and that comes with a fee most times. Why are there no ill comments about this fact?

Its very easy if you need a permit get it and I would also not mind paying a fee if it would help with the management of the road and camp areas.


Most would say thats my 0 cents worth. Cheers Tony
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Reply By: Member - Lionel A (WA) - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 15:58

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 15:58
Just out of interest,

The only Aboriginal Lands I have ever entered, I didnt need a permit, [ The Broncs, on the outskirts of town].

Not having travelled through the types of Aboriginal Lands you guys are talking about, what would happen to me if on a trip, I inadvertently found myself in these areas without a permit.

Who would be the authority that would be likely to stop me and check I have a permit ?

How strick are they in general and what sort of penalties apply if you dont have a permit ?

Cheers.....Lionel.
AnswerID: 347850

Follow Up By: Willem - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 16:22

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 16:22
Lionel

1st offence.....They tie you(naked) to a honey ants nest and smear parts of your anatomy with the same substance

2nd offence.....hmm didn't think you would be game enough to go back....lol

There have only been a handful of prosecutions in relation to Tresspass on Aboriginal Lands over the years. And to my mind (of those I learned about) it was politcal motivation

Over my many years of travels throughout Australia and through and across Aboriginal Lands I have obtained Permits for 99% of the time. At one stage I had a blanket permit for the Northern Territory (wonder if it ever expired?). In all my years of travels I have never ever been asked by anyone to show my permit and I have been to quite a number of communities. Aboriginal People on the communities rarely show interest in permits. Its only when things go politcal, or culturally sensitive when permits come into question. Last year we were refused a permit to a certain area by the CLC(NT) but granted a permit by DIA(WA) to an area adjacent to our objective without any trouble at all.

It is a complex situation within the boundaries of Terra Australis and not something that is going to be resolved within the next 100 years or so.

So you have to make up your own mind what your priorities are if you want to visit or pass through Aboriginal Lands which have access restrictions.

Cheers
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FollowupID: 616082

Follow Up By: Member - Lionel A (WA) - Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 21:52

Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 21:52
OOOOHWEE....1st offence sounds interesting.

May make the whips, chains and nipple clamps redundant...lol.

After all, they do say 'variety is the spice of life'......hehehe.


Cheers......Lionel.
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FollowupID: 616135

Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 02:19

Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 02:19
Lionel

3th.... they may use it to stop other people from traveling these tracks/roads.. eg. savorers generals corner..

So for everyone sake (what ever color) use the permit system untill the laws are changed..

Regard's

Richard
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FollowupID: 616167

Follow Up By: Willem - Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 08:54

Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 08:54
Bloody Hell Richard...use a Dictionary!

Surveyor Generals Corner NOT savorers generals corner



Cheers
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Follow Up By: Ray - Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 09:04

Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 09:04
Also Colour not COLOR
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Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 13:35

Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 13:35
Ha Ha I had just got home from the Club was lucky to see keyboard let alone read... :-)

Ray the word COLOR was a fish hook... LOL

Cheers

Richard
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FollowupID: 616228

Reply By: Richard Kovac - Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 02:22

Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 02:22
So who posted this crap anyways... no name attached????

Just ""Submitted: Friday, Feb 06, 2009 at 06:29""

so we have bogiemen??
AnswerID: 347943

Follow Up By: equinox - Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 03:32

Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 03:32
Agree Richard,
This was a troll from the start.

Cheers
Alan

Looking for adventure.
In whatever comes our way.
"Outback Yonder"


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Follow Up By: Member - Richard H (NSW) - Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 07:55

Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 07:55
I suppose I'm responsible in the long run for this "crap". And, whatsmore, I'll do it again if I so desire.

We live in a democratic country and free speech is one of our rights, Richard, and open debate is healthy.

I'm sure that this "crap" as it is termed has allowed a number of people to express their opinions, and if you don't like them, well, don't read 'em.

So there!
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Follow Up By: ross - Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 09:03

Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 09:03
It would be nice if you put your name to it then.


I dont have a problem with the permit system. I get them out of respect for the communities that own the land .
No big deal

At least they allow you access ,unlike some cockies who have locked up land that they manage under a Pastoral Lease.
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Follow Up By: Willem - Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 09:10

Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 09:10
Richard K


As Richard H states!

The thread is supposed to advance some information that the poster may use and store in his/her database for future reference.

Ofcourse there are emotive arguments, redneck comments and incorrect information posted to the thread. It happens in many threads. You went to a lot of trouble to dispel what I initiated in the beginning about the NT Intervention. As it turns out there are quite a few 'grey' areas of the interpretation of the 'law'.

I know people who have never ever applied for a permit to go anywhere throughout Australia where Aboriginal Lands are in question and they have never been asked to show one.

The majority of travellers 'do the right thing' and adhere to this farcical bureaucratic compliance (my opinion). It serves little purpose other than employing a small number of people and giving those in control the feeling of 'power'.

I could go on but I am not sure if you would get the point.

Cheers
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FollowupID: 616185

Follow Up By: Member - Richard H (NSW) - Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 09:44

Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 09:44
I know I'm a cynic. But we are the ones who question what comes out of parliament, and try to do something about it.

Sometimes I wonder if the permit to enter upon Aboriginal Lands was not a ploy by government to keep intruders out so that we couldn't observe the third world conditions Native Australians live under.

Five years ago we passed through Kintore, yes, we had permits, obtained fuel and bought some stuff at the store. The place was disgusting, I've seen town dumps in better condition. If the inhabitants of that region cared so much about the place, as we are told, why don't they at least clean the joint up.

Walking around was a group of young men with cut off Coke containers over the lower portion of their faces. They were sniffing petrol in full view of tourists, and there were a few, and the locals. At the time there was no cop in the place. You couldn't buy petrol, only diesel and avgas. Opal didn't exist at the time.

I wrote to the then ministers responsible (C of A & N.T.) expressing our concerns and what we saw. The bloke from the N.T. had the gall to write back & tell me what a great job they were doing. The Oz. Govt. didn't reply, not interested, too hard.

In terms of passing through Aboriginal Lands, I have no desire to enter into private property, houses or yards, and I understand that there are reasons for this (sacred sites, men only busines etc), but the public roads that are maintained by government funds, initially our taxes, should be accessible to all without having to muck about with bureaucrats.

Another question here, I know that the cops have the legislative power to demand permits, does anyone else?

My name : Dick Holland

0
FollowupID: 616193

Follow Up By: Willem - Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 10:02

Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 10:02
Dick

As far as I known any Traditional Owner of the Land can ask you to show your permit. THus said, how can a Traditional Owner state who he/she is?

I heard a story that some Aboriginal blokes were asking travellers to show their permits at Durba Springs last year

"You show me yours and I will show you mine"....LOL

Yeah Kintore and Papunya evokes the question about who cares?


Cheers
0
FollowupID: 616199

Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 14:13

Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 14:13
Boy O Boy Willem

don,t get your nose out of joint, it was a copy and paste from the clc's web site.

some people can give it but can't take it... nothing personal was just having lunch at work at the time and took the 1 minute to fined it on there web site, Cool


""You went to a lot of trouble to dispel what I initiated in the beginning about the NT Intervention""


So Richard H

how do you go about starting a post with no name?

enlighten us it may come in handy when we want to start a bum
fight.


Regards

Richard Kovac
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FollowupID: 616237

Follow Up By: Willem - Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 14:41

Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 14:41
Richard K


By your own admission you have just returned from the club...blind as a bat....pls don't pist when possed


I have no issue with you correcting me. Your problem is the command of the English language(apart from your atrocious spelling) and its nuances and meanings which sometimes you fail to understand.

Bye bye



0
FollowupID: 616242

Follow Up By: Member - Richard H (NSW) - Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 15:01

Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 15:01
I started this thread up as a "visitor' in the process of joining.

Blame the process I suppose.

Dick
0
FollowupID: 616247

Reply By: Ray - Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 09:09

Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 09:09
Can anybody explain to me that when I fill in an admittance form for a hospital that one of the questions asked is "Are you of aboriginal race". Is this discrimination?
AnswerID: 347960

Follow Up By: Willem - Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 09:27

Saturday, Feb 07, 2009 at 09:27
Just tick NO or YES
0
FollowupID: 616188

Reply By: Richard Kovac - Tuesday, Feb 10, 2009 at 23:38

Tuesday, Feb 10, 2009 at 23:38
Hi Richard

Just to let you know I have all the Permits needed to carry out our travels this year. in WA and The NT, we had no problems at all getting them . No money changed hands, no hassles at all really.

Cheers

Richard Kovac
AnswerID: 348536

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