CO2 bottle!! An good alternative to a 12V compressor

Nitrogen!
Whats that used for?

Cheers....Lionel.

Lionel
Nitrogen is sometimes used instead of air, it wont fluctuate in pressure due to heat or cold like air will.

Cheers Colin.

Co2 may also be ok for vehicles, i dont know how co2 reacts in auto tyres but they use it in bike tyres. Maybe someone can tell us..
That regulator is a dual regulator, CO2 or nitrogen , so i am assuming that the co2 bottle connection is the same as a nitrogen bottle, if the regulator is used for both gases. Michael

Hi all

I have run my tyres filled with Nitrogen! for years
I don,t know if there is any advantage but my tyre guy said the tyres run cooler so there is less wear.

Lionel,

Nitrogen is becoming more common now due to the following benefits according to Jax tyre company.

1. Stable Tyre Pressure
2. Better Grip
3. Safer in all weather conditions
4. Less frequent pressure checks
5. Increased fuel economy
6. Zero internal oxidisation through elimination of moisture
7. Increased tyre life

Refer to their web site for more details:

Nitrogen in Tyres


If you look at the valve caps on parked cars you may see some red ones - that is the international standard for tyres containing Nitrogen. We had a Lexus ES300 years ago with Nitrogen in the tyres - I dont think we had to pump up the tyres the whole time we had it - they just seemed to maintain the right pressure.

One of the problems with using normal air is that most likely it os of poor quality (ie not perfectly dry). How many service stations or even tyre outlets would service their compressors frequently to remove water. Probably very few. The fact is the quality of air we put in our tyres is probably very poor and varies significantly between inflation points. The quality of air directly effects tyre performance.
A rubber tyre is like a membrane, through which air permeates As a result, the air slowly leaks out through the rubber walls, which leads to under-inflation. The rate of this loss can vary between tyres (even on the same vehicle). As we know underinflation can contribute to increased tyre wear and vehicle performance. In addition if the compressed air contains high levels of moisture this not only effects the maintenance of tyre pressure but can also accelerate the corrosion of the tyre rim (with repercussions later on).
More significantly the higher the moisture content in a tyre's air chamber, the greater the pressure build-up as a tyre increases in temperature. In other words one tyre may have poor air quality (ie higher moisture) than its companions and under heavy load will built up a lot higher pressure than the others. Water vapour also causes oxidation with the rim, which can cause leakage through the valve core and an uneven surface for the bead to seat, and seal. Water vapour can also lead to the eventual corrosion and or weakening of the steel strands in the tyre.
Many outlets are now providing the Nitrogen alternative – eg Bob Jane and Jax outlets to name just two.
Nitrogen appears the way of the future - the only issue for offroaders who let their tyres down is how to re pressure them remotely if you use Nitogen. Carry a pressureised tank of Nitrogen as outlined above id one option.

Cheers
GPM

Does it help with hangovers? or have i been using the wrong cyclindeeeeer?

I'd reckon you'd get better fuel economy using a Fitch or Hiclone tha nfilling your tyres with Nitrogen LOL

It's a con GPM.

Cheers,

Jim.

Why is it a con Jim. Why not back up your statement instead of making arbitrary comments without substance. the fact is from my personal experience with our Lexus it did appear to hold pressure more than normal air tyres. there is some scientific evidence to support the use of Nitrogen over air - have you researched it. If so explain where the statements I mentioned are incorrect. I am open to correction and increase ny knowledge on the subject (one I have been reading about over some months) but for yoy to make arbitary and unsubstantiated comments does little for your credibility.

GPM,

Don't get so Nancy on me.

These so called miracles are generally profit based.

Why not fill the tyre with Helium? That would decrease the unsprung weight of the wheel/tyre as is the genuine reason for fitting alloy rims.

If you're happy with Nitrogen filled tyres and find some benefits I wish you well.

Regards,

Jim.

i used to have it in my wifes old car (maybe 6 years ago) for around 4 years and found it to be good at keeping the pressures up. i originally was put onto it by bob jane when i got those particular tyres from them. i no longer use them as i cant be bothered being tied to a particular tyre outlet to top up etc. (local bob jane were happy enough to let you call in for top up unannounced if ever needed as it tended to be only needed on a rare occasion - maybe once a year in my case)

i also thought that planes used them in their tyres, and also used in some race cars too. not sure if they both still do - would have to research more to find out - sure someone on here will know

Jim,
Im just after some facts.
Here is one for you (based on elementary science):

"The oxygen and water vapours contained in compressed air leak through the tyre structure, causing pressure drop - where as Nitrogen is dry, therefore using it for inflation ensures these vapours are minimal, meaning the pressure remains constant for longer periods of time. In addition since Nitrogen is dry, the lack of water vapour also eliminates internal rim rust and damage."

If you do not agree with this fact - please explain where it is incorrect. Thats all I am asking. If it is true (which it is) - clearly there is a benefit to have Nitrogen in your tyres for general use (the jury is still out as far as I am concerned for off road use).

Concerning your suggestion its a profit making rip off - well it costs about $7.50 per tyre for Nitrogen with free top ups for the life of the tyre. Hardly a big profit rip off wouldn't you say.

GPM

Yes PradOz you are correct.
Planes use Nitrogen in their tyres as do many Formulae 1, Nascars etc. I have also heard the bikes in Tour de France use Nitrogen. Many other specialist vehicles use it as well - some US military vehicles as well I understand.
Cheers
GPM

The thing with this isn't the gas, good old fashioned air is about 79% nitrogen, around 20% oxygen and the balance is a whole heap of trace gases. It's hardly worth all the effort to fill a tyre with nitrogen!

If we were to buy medical or industrial air from BOC, Air Liquide, Linde Gas (Core Gas) etc we'd very likely see the same results as going to the high end tyre dealer for a nitrogen fill. Dry air removes all the argument about moisture in the fill, it's as dry as Nitrogen, CO2 etc.

The other problem we face is the tyre fitting, last time I had tyres fitted it was done in a big tin shed full of air. Unless the fitter seats the bead then evacuates the tyre with a vacuum pump I most certainly don't have a nitrogen fill.

Now we go to the Periodic Table of the Elements, see below.

Nitrogen and Oxygen are side by side in the table. That means their Atomic Mass and Density are within a bee's knacker of each other!



If you are a Formula 1 team looking for a brazilianth of a second by all means use nitrogen but really, Jim has summed it quite nicely.

Geoff

Seriously GPM, I've got better things to do with my life than wonder what is in my tyres.

As long as they hold my preferred pressure, (regardless of the gaseous substance in them) I'm happy. If I have to adjust their pressure from time to time, well, so be it.

I'm more concerned with the quality of steak I eat than what inflates my tyres.

Regards,

Jim.

Just as I thought Jim, you have no argument to put forward to add to an informed debate (unlike Geoff above). Yes I agree with you - you should find better things to do with your time. But why did you comment in the first place?
You referred to this as a con - that people who debate it on this forum are gullible and are being swindled (thats what a con means) and you associate it with the fitch and hiclone. I see that as an insult to the contributors who are merely expressing a view towards an informed debate.
My view is that this forum is to allow an informed debate on various topics. Nitrogen in tyres is a ligitimate topic and one that has some scientific justification for it as supported by use in specialist areas already. I do not care if people have alternative views - I want to learn from others knowledge (thanks to Geoff above for his input) but for you to come on and belittle others by implying they are gullible (thats exactly what believing in a con is) is inciteful and derogatory. If you cannot contribute something positive and constructive to the debate its probably best if you say nothing at all.

GPM,

There's no need to get nasty.

When I read statements like "improved fuel consumption" alarm bells ring.

If these mobs are going to make claims they need to substantiate them with INDEPENDENT testing (say RACV, CSIRO etc.).

Until their claims can be proven, I maintain that I reckon it's a con.

Cheers,

Jim.

Mate,
If you do some homework on the subject and a little research you will find the fuel savings claim is a secondary one - not directly from the use of Nitrogen but from the subsequent effects of maintaining correct pressure. Here is a direct quote from one of the tyre companies promoting the use of Nitrogen:

" You may eventually notice some savings in fuel and maintenance costs but remember - this is due to accurate tyre pressure and nitrogen's ability to help keep it constant"

Given that most people probably do not check their tyre pressure as often as needed to maintain correct pressure, and that driving under inflated tyres increases fuel consumption - it is not an unreasonable claim to make - albiet the savings may be minor.

All I am is saying is lets have an informed and educated debate on these topics (the purpose of a forum in the first place) - rather than being critical of everything without any material to back up your blanket statements.
GPM

Commonsense, gut feel and some recollection of my High School Science told me it was a con.

Geoff confirmed it.

Anyway, your $30, spend it any way you like.

Cheers,

Jim.

I'm with Jim on this one. The science doesn't stack up for motoring use.

GPM wants informed and educated debate - well the various motoring organisations have looked into it - this is what the RACQ say:RACQ on Nitrogen

A quote from the summary:

"While using nitrogen in passenger car tyres may produce some benefits in some applications, it is questionable if the average motorist will derive any measurable benefit from its use."

Buth then none of us think of ourselves as "average motorists" and of course there are lots of statements from tyre companies and installers who say how great it is, but then they are selling it!

They tried to con my daughter into it when she changed tyres recently - she asked the RAA technical service - their opinion was that it is not worth doing and that their statement that she would not need to check her tyre pressures again is in fact very dangerous as there are other causes of tyre deflation than oxygen permeability. (The tyre company also told her she needed a 4 wheel alignment as well)

But perhaps if I filled my tyres with air but pass it through a hiclone first to introduce a swirl, then the residual vortices in the air will circulate it away from the tread while driving and reduce tyre heating ...

Pete

A most interesting read Pete,

Confirmed my doubts.

"Would you like Fries with that" comes to mind.

Cheers,

Jim.

OK

My tyres are at 42 PSI filled with 79% N2, 20% O2 and 1% Other. All the O2 leaks out (how quickly??). My tyres are now at 33.6 PSI. I top up with air. I now have 95% N2, 4% O2 and 1 ish % Other. All the O2 leaks out again and I top up with air. I now have 98.2% N2, 0.2% O2 and 1 ish % other.

What about all this moisture that rots my rims? I had better not drive in the rain and let the outside get wet then. The only rims I have owned that rusted to the point of concern was on a 1951 Morris Minor that had spent 10 years as a chook shed before being restored.

N2 doesn't increase in pressure when it heats up. Yeah right, has anyone else heard of charles and boyles laws???

And had better carry a cylinder with me so when I air down I can air up with pure N2.

Or I could just check the pressures each time I fill up the diesel.

I'm still with you on this one Jim.

Pete

so where do you buy a nitrogen compresor to re inflate after abeach run

- cmon now nitrogen has some marginal theoretical advantages and was promoted about 5 years ago but it died a quick death
- it just didnt pass the praticality-advantage-cost benifit test

Hi Col,

You wrote " Nitrogen is sometimes used instead of air, it wont fluctuate in pressure due to heat or cold "


Did you mean as much as "air" ?


Gay-Lussacs Law !

Glenn.

Hey Des - what sort of bikes you talking about? Push bikes tyres normally have a lot more pressure than that in them! Not much air but lots of pressure.
Cheers from the Moose

Hi Moose , Sorry I should have said motorbikes , we have race days and do trips bush ( flinders etc) and if we get a flat we can change it at night and not have to use the hand pump. Cheers Des.

Geoff! Its just a bit of a think tank thing! Yes Nitrogen is best as you said, it is dry.. I realise the airup system is available but expensive i think.. Its all food for thought!! Michael

Hi Michael,

I agree wholeheartedly with you on this.

One of the real features of this site is people such as yourself just plain thinking out loud.

Geoff

Geoff! Its just a bit of a think tank thing! .. I realise the air-up system is available but expensive i think.. Nitrogen is dry also. Its all food for thought!! Michael

Hi Tony, $150 gets you a marginal compressor. $300 is about the starting price of something with a reputation for reliability.. My opinion only.. regards Michael

Michael. I have a very good compressor - Look at the following link.

KingcrKincrome Compressorome Version

You can get them for $150 on special, as I did mine and they are as good as anything portable. Bloody quick bloody good :-) Cheers Tony

Bill, did 4 tyres in one go from near flat to 40psi with a $149 Maxi air unit from Auto-Pro.

Couldnt touch it for half an hour, melted the solder holding the wires to the battery clamps. All on a 41 deg day.

Still going ok and lives in the back of the car but, I am thinking of getting an under bonnet unit for when the Maxi finally pops.

Cheers.....Lionel.

Bought one of the MaxAir clones from Aldi 3yrs ago for $99 ,, now permanently mounted and hard wired to aux battery ,, IT will reseat beads on 31-33 and 35s tubeless ,, did all sizes on 1 day for 3 different travellers at LorrellaSprings last August.

You can - see above thread for link. Cheers Tony

Air-up is a big price Bruce, $800 with a bottle, better to buy one of those Boss compressors if you have the room, They are about the size of a winch! Michael

any chance you can shed some light on your statement "There are some things Air Up don't tell you for a very good reason and others are factually incorrect to make it look safer than it is."

we are all entitled to our opinion, but there is no point making an uninformed opinion appear as though it is 100% fact. if yours is 'fact' and you can expand that would be great for those like me who are looking to learn more - thanks

Hi PradoOz,

I think Mr Mogul is hinting at one of my concerns with these inert gas based tyre inflation systems.

I'd definitely stop short of totally condemning the system but the idea of carrying inert gas inside a vehicle does concern me!

If we are cruising along inside a sealed vehicle and the cylinder for some reason begins to leak it can fill the cab with a non poisonous, non life supporting gas.

Asphyxiaton and death very shortly follows.

At least that is my take,

Geoff

To start with my business fills around 250 CO2 cylinders a week including the type that Air Up sell.

These cylinders have a test pressure of between 20.4mpa and 22mpa. The safety devices fitted must let go between 18.5mpa and the test pressure of the cylinder. The reason for the burst disc is to slowly release a build up in pressure within the cylinder. This release may not be sufficient in extreme circumstances eg. vehicle accident. If a cylinder is crushed in an accident it is quite likely that it will explode the burst disc will do nothing to prevent this.

So what causes the pressure inside the cylinder to increase ? temperature. What happens to internal temperatures within your car on a hot day? Image going shopping and coming back to a hot car the burst disc has burst and filled the car with CO2, say no more.

It is actually against Australian Standards to store CO2 cylinders in a position which MAY be exposed to direct sunlight.

Air Up mention Department of Transportation this is an American approval body and has nothing to do with approving the cylinders for transportation purposes here in Australia.

As safe as a CO2 fire extinguisher correct but their cylinders in this application don't just sit on the wall all their life.

Air up say that "This evaporative process slows the pressure release rate meaning that a CO2 tank will not become a high speed rocket like a scuba tank would in the rare event of a valve decapitation." has to be the biggest load of tripe I've heard. The cylinder contains over 1000psi of pressure but wont take off like a missile if you break the valve off it. I have seen pictures of cylinders that have exploded and blown out brick walls.

Here is a link to Air Liquide's material safety data sheet for CO2 have a good read and you will see what I mean.

http://www.msdsonline.com.au/airliquide/msds/msdsview.asp?SynonymCode=FMOU900&msds_format=00&in_langcode=&uselogo=TRUE

The amount of safety information given by Air Up is very limited reinforcing the message that their cylinders are perfective safe without any special precautions being taken. If people know how dangerous CO2 stored in cylinders actually is they would never just throw in the car or tie them to their roofracks.

I think the idea is to carry the bottle on the outside for that reason. Air-up have a bracket to mount to the rear of the vehicle if you have such a suitable spot. Michael

Can't be mounted anywhere where it will be subjected to periods of direct sunlight.

Mogul,
I guess it would be in direct sunlight if mounted outside the vehicle. I doubt anyone would carry the bottle inside the vehicle if told that if it leaked, there would be no smell and would not support life and it could kill you, or it the vehicle got to 70deg inside, it would explode and send there vehicles parts in many directions. Air up have a aluminium bottle, the bottle i originally mentioned is new and steel, it must be stronger. Is there any stats on bottle explosions from sitting in the sun..?? I think if the bottles were on the limit and all it takes is a few degrees to explode, then i doubt you guys would take the risk to fill them with the likelihood of killing employees and knocking down brick wall in a factory. Michael

Mogul, I agree it would be a leathal weapon used incorrectly or in the hands of stupid people.. i think personally a compressor is safer!! Michael

Michael,
Whether it is aluminium or steel doesn't matter. The cylinders are made in order to satisfy standard requirements.

Like any compressed gas it is perfectly safe so long as it is handled properly.

Just remember you tyres have 40psi in them, these cylinders at normal room temperature have around 1000psi in them.

Come on boys play nice , nitrogen instead of standard air in tires has advantages yes , also has its disadvantages for normal - everyday use ,, as for being dangerous carrying a cylinder in car ? Was termed "laughing gas" so you could of course kill youself laughing if the cylinder leaked,, LOL.

Mogul, I cant argue with you about handling and safety, even something safe can be leathal in the wrong hands.. regards Michael

the air appears to be getting a bit hot in some posts here ;)

maybe we should forget the Co2 and fill em up with laughing gas instead and share it around :))

I should know when to keep my big mouth shut!! LOL! Michael

i wouldnt be too worried - you usually offer some real good ideas to think and talk about (like this one) so keep 'em coming

PradOz, This topic is probably not relavant to many but it brings up other related issues on the inflation front.. Its was worth the post. regards Michael

Gday Willem,
I have a Big Red compressor mounted inside my spare wheel on the read door and i use the spare wheel as a resesvoir, it works well for me. The air-up system is already out there, i was just alerting others who may prefer that sort of system and dont want to pay out $800 for the air up set up.. I prefer a compressor but this system would be great for the competition guys in those extreme 4x4 machines i think. I aslo believe the bottle of Co2 or Nitrogen should be mounted outside the vehicle if you prefer that method. regards Michael

I've bought a couple of excellent Chinese compressors on eBay.

I reckon they'd blow your $500 compressors and the gas cylinders (air, CO2, N2, helium, whatever) right out of the water.

And they were only $70 plus postage.

Bob