Bull Bars - Here is another threat (Like VSI50)

People who buy them to tow won't like this one... just ban the import of ALL 4WD's with an auto transmission.
Let's see how many are used for the school run then!

A good reason to have a bullbar fitted ?
Showing cause ?

Theres a couple actually.

1/.. The original purpose i.e. protecting the vehicle from animal strike damage so as to be able to maintain your journey.

2/.. The new purpose i.e. protecting your vehicle from bumps and scrapes, normally protected by that now, discontinued but still nescessary piece of equipment on motor vehicles - the BumperBar.

1970 ... bump a post ... replace the bumperbar
2009 ... bump a post ... replace whatever the piece of plastic deforms enough to be let smashed. lights, cooling components, aircon components, panels etc.


Whilst I still despise the sight of fleets of shiny simpson desert equipped tourers that I see on trips to the city ... knowing that the majority of those vehicles will never leave an area, not defined by their E-Tag ... there is also reasons for the increased presense of these vehicles on the road as school and soccer run vehicles.

1/.. Station Wagons of old - no longer exist ... inadequate interior space, inferior towing abilities, inadequate seating mean Pajeros / Patrols / 80s100s200s etc., ARE the NEW station wagon - and its been happening since the early 1980's.

2/.. If they own one ... they can at least pretend that - "one day they will explore this great wide land"

3/.. The myth of 4wd being safer .... personally I think that refers to old 4wds visually suffering less impact damage than a crumpledore or similiar rather than an "injury" tho.
The constant advertising of "safer" all wheel drive compared to 2wd is probably more relevant today.

I find my 'cruiser rev's out a bit if I try and drive in reverse at 100 Km/Hr :-)

Dammed if I can get it into reverse at anything over 60kph!

Thanks for highlighting that Disco...

Importantly, let's not get distracted by side issues of little relevance.

VSI50 seemed to catch a lot of people unaware, regardless of how that happened, it did. Let's make sure the discussion and possible implementation of rules on bull bars doesn't go the same way as VSI50....

The anti-4WD lobby are hard at work while we discuss the relevance of Toorak Tractors! No wonder VSI50 slipped past us.......

Cheers......

disco .how do you put a bar on a disco.twinny

Twinny,
Just in case you are being serious instead of cynical, here goes

Make sure that the bar you have bought is the correct one for your vehicle.
1. Undo all bolts and nuts securing the original bumper to the vehicle.
2. Disconnect all electrical wiring from indicator lights. (You may need to refit the indicators to your new bullbar).
3. Carefully remove the original bumper bar from the front of your disco.
4. With the help of a physically strong friend offer up the new bullbar/ bumper unit to the vehicle.
5. With your physically strong friend supporting the new unit, climb under the vehicle manouver the bullbar unit into position and carefully insert the bumperbar retaining bolts through the matching holes in the new bullbar/bumper unit into the the holes in the chassis.
.6 Pick up the nuts and washers removed in operation (1) and place them onto the bolts you put through the holes in operation (5).
7. With suitable spanners carefully tighten all the nuts and bolts used in fitting the new unit to your vehicle.
8. If necessary, transfer the indicator lights from the old bumper to the replacement bullbar/bumper unit
9. Re connect all wiring and check that all lights are working correctly.

CONGRATULATIONS, you have fitted a bar to a disco , as requested.


If you were just being cynical, Just put the bloody Engel back in the vehicle.


Disco.

Disco.i was being cynical. sorry l/c troopie 2007 owner.am imissing something here have not heard of old friend willem for yonks.regards twinny

Twinny,
When I read your earlier post about fitting bar to disco, the sarcastic streak in me took over.
I certainly did not take offence at your post but did wonder where you were coming from.
Now I know........................a Toyota owner.
LOL

Disco.

Brad,

Be careful what you ask for, 'cause you might just get it. And once evidence shows bullbars are more dangerous we would have lost the arguement.

So, as you said, don't be driven by emotion. Recognise that lifts and bars make cars more dangerous to those around them. What we must point out is that bullbars also save lives. So a happy medium should be sought. The practice of dealers giving away free bullbars with new vehicle doesn't our situation.

R.

“It is a concern when there is minimal consultation.”

Brad…

A very valid point, except nobody is going to argue our case, fight our battles or do our bidding. And if our case is not argued effectively the broader community will not know the alternative view or some of the ‘real’ facts. Before you know it a discussion paper has become government policy….

Anti-4WD lobby groups and other interested parties present their arguments both to the Government and in the media, often it seems, without a response from the peak 4WD Groups. We run the risk that government policy or directives are then formulated on the back of this lobbying; nothing new in that when it comes to a day in politics….. And don’t loose sight of the fact that beating up the recreational 4WD industry provides a good distraction from other failures of the government at very little cost in terms of the voting public.

Although there is now some noise being made, it is alarming that VSI50 went unchecked so it is important to make sure that bull bars don’t go the same way and clearly bull bars are within the sights of Vicroads presently.

But we need to ask the question, why isn’t their a co-ordinated policy response from our peak representative bodies on these issues? I haven’t seen or read anything in the mainstream media presenting our case on VSI50 from any of the recreational 4WD Associations, and if there has been I’ll be pleased and stand corrected. This would be a good starting point………especially on bull bars, before it is too late.

Cheers

Rob & Landy
My point is that with evidence you can either refute it or accept it. If bullbars or whatever, are proven horribly unsafe then fine, let's work with that premise and work around it so these can be made safer. If the arguments are based on crappy evidence then these arguments should be seen for the sham they are. Blanket bans are no solution. The counter argument (ours) also needs to be clearly and effectively demonstrated, in this case that bullbars actually save lives. Again it requires evidence.

I wonder if a good lawyer could shred the first case that comes to court due to a lack of reliable, valid and repeatable research?

Exactly. A well thought out and researched policy is needed but well ... you know.

Unfortunately too often the arguement form the 4WD community goes along the lines of ... "it's my right to do what I want to do".

While it should be something like this.

"We recognise that increasing the suspension on a car will lift its centre of gravity and therefore may increase the risk of a roll over. However, standard car suspecions are made for the lowest common denominator at the cheapest price. 4wd's are is no longer desiged to carry heavy loads on corrugated roads and rough terrain in their standard form. To make these cars safer, often the suspension needs to be upgraded.

In most cases, when done by reputable engineers, a 4" lift will also include other new suspension components that far surpass the quality of the standard equipment and actually reduce the chances of rollover. So as the 4wd commuity we wish to push for all such modifiactions to be done with the engineers certificates."

... but that would require the 4wd community to be pro-active rather than re-active.

R.

Hear what you are saying....if on;y it was that simple!

Cheers

Hairy,

Statement like "Dont walk out in front of cars because it might hurt?" are not helpful to our cause. In fact, they reinforce the common view that we are a bunch of conceited fools who should be ingored.

The fact is that many times when people are hit by cars is when drivers fail to give way to pedestrians.

It's not always the idiot that gets hurt.

Rob!,
Yeah well. The point of veiw from a conceited fool is .......
Dont take right of way over something a lot bigger.
I wouldnt care if the green walk light is on or the pedestrian crossing is flashing, I still wouldnt walk out in front of a car that hasnt stopped or looks like its going to?

... and that's why 4wd have such a bad reputation. People don't so much hate bullbars. They hate the attitude that accompanies them.

The average person's view is that "people in big 4wd's with bullbars think they have the right of way wherever they go. Just because they are bigger and stronger they think EVERYBODY should move out of their way."

You think that even if you are running a red light and you hit someone it's the other persons fault.

Kind of sums it all up, doesn't it.

Rob ... I think the point Hairy is making;

Is that a green pedestrian light does not make it "safe" to step onto the roadway ....

In much the same way a green traffic light does not make it "safe" to drive thriugh an intersection.

Being "safe" comes from ones ability to assess their surroundings and apply commonsense ... not from observing a bunch of higgledy piggledy nanny state rules or flashing lights.

Bad attitudes are a trait of a small percentage of ALL roadusers - not any one particular group ... unless ones believes the propoganda put out by self interest groups with nothing better to do.

I hate to burst your bubble, but your idea of an average persons veiw and mine are quite different?
Where I come from 4wd's dont have a bad reputation......
They dont assume right away......
And not walking in front of a moving vehicle (with or without a bull bar) just in case something goes wrong (even if you have right away), is common sense?????
And no....even here, if you run a red light, your at fault? (you've lost me there?)
Your prety quick to form an opinion of my thoughts arent you???

OZTroopy,

I do understand what Hairy is saying. It's just said in a way where it will be interpreted in the wrong way. Natrually a green light does not make it safe to cross, but to imply that everything smaller should give way to a 4wd with a bullbar is not doing us any favours. Further to that, how many drivers actually slow down when they come to an intersection with green light? None. People assume it's safe. It's no different for padestrians.

Hairy,

I don't know you as a person. I can only respond to what you have written here. So it appears that what you wrote is not what you intended.

Of coarse you wouldn't go through a green light if you can see that something (bigger or smaller) is about to cross, but don't say when a pedestrain is hit by a car it's the pedestrians fault. Again, it's not helping us.

I know where you live 4wd is not viewed as a negative, but you have to realise that for many people who live in the cities that is not the case. Any new rules about 4wd will not only affect those in the cities. They'll affect you too, whther you like it or not. Let's not forget we're all on the same side here.

Cheers

Dave

Good point…

Take a look at this release from the Australian Trucking Association; it was a speech (read speech here) given to the National Press Club in Canberra earlier this month.

The content is less important, but what _Affordable_Storage_Drawers.aspx your attention is the fact they are engaging the media, explaining what they are doing, and where incorrect assumptions have been made they answer their critics.

This is precisely the type of engagement the 4WD Drive Associations’ need to adopt…clear and concise policy that is well communicated to the media.

Cheers

Jeez, if I could find me a 20ft. 'van that weighed in at just one tonne I'd be a bit concerned about it's integrity.
But I get your point and I agree that the lack of a legal requirement for some kind of MDL endorsement for the towing of large trailers is a bit of a worry.

Canberra ALWAYS has a good arguement to have what the rest of the country may not ... LOLOL

One issue that does need to be addressed is the fact that the majority of the population only sees the ratsized roos on the east coast.

They get substantially bigger the further west one goes.

It is a similiar scenario to ... If my suspension works fine on the Sydney M7 - why should anybody need any thing different just to drive from Lightning Ridge to Tibooburra ?

Yeah but try living here, dodging roos is one of the few things worth getting out of bed for. The do get quite big here, but nothing like the big red roos out west for sure.

The latte set are quite eco-friendly here so I'm surprised there hasn't been more carry on here about 4wds.

Ray

The issue I am highlighting and trying to get traction on here is that it is pointless us debating it amongst ourselves; it is akin to preaching to the converted. But ask the question why aren’t the 4WD Associations out there presenting and countering the arguments of the anti-4WD groups.

You are quite right to highlight that it is the vehicle that is dangerous, not the bull bar attached to the front of it. There is evidence to suggest that it will make little difference to a pedestrian being hit at 60kph with our without the bar. Have a read of the AAAA paper on bull bars.

The recreational 4WD community needs a strong voice that speaks with the government and ensures our views are well articulated to the broader community.
I suggested earlier in this thread that I have not seen anything in the mainstream media that represents the views of recreational 4WD Drivers with respect to VSI50. Don’t let bull bars go the same way.

As far as Harold Scrubby goes; I chuckle every-time I see someone have a go at him, not because I agree with his views, but because we would do well to take a leaf out of his book, after all he gets the ear of the media and government when it comes to presenting an anti-4WD view. We need to turn this around……..

Cheers…

Landy,

I dont think its pointless debating it amongst ourselves.

The debating provides input from people requiring ... and not requiring bullbars,

The debating provides some enlightenment to to both sides of the debate about the practicalities ... and any factual dangers of bullbars,

Knowledgable debaters provide technical data,

Once the factual debate points are accrued ... then perhaps a formalised proposal could be drawn up, based in part on the debate results.

Pointless just doing a "scrubby" and taking a stand ... and lobbying ... even tho govt seems to accept such unsubstantiated drivel.

Personally I think the general use of the term "bullbar" needs to change which may even help with policy making.

I have RooBar ... If I lived at Cloncurry I would have a "BullBar" and city dwellers need "frontal protection bars" to make up for the lack of a factory fitted "BumperBar".

AEV in the US makes an interesting bar .... Like a lego kit - it can be varied to suit the owners actual requirements .... Perhaps that may be a part answer to the situation.

OzTroopy, we appear to differ at times on the detail, but I think we both seem to move in the same direction...

To keep this in some context; the thrust of my point has been that we 'recreational four wheel driver drivers' need to have a well articulated policy on anything 4WD and our views and policies need to be conveyed to policy makers via our 4WD Drive Associations.

I have read any number of comments and views on VSI50 for example, and the action that people want to take now. I simply pose the question; isn't that closing the gate after the horse has bolted? Don't let bull bars go the same way..

There is no problem having these discussions, but these views need to be consolidated and taken to the next step....make sure our policy makers understand our views and in the very least consult with us on policy development. This didn't happen with VSI50, and you may well ask why!

It is important that if you or others are a member of a four-wheel drive club, or Association, that you communicate your view on these and other matters, and ask them are they representing you to government on these issues.

Cheers...