Misplaced Faith in Winch Rope

Submitted: Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 19:10
ThreadID: 71450 Views:4527 Replies:9 FollowUps:19
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I know a little piece of track which hates me and has caught me out
before.

This time it seemed in good condition and I figured I could make it up
the entire 20 meters with a bit of momentum even though my tyres were at 22psi.

Its only about a 20 degree upslope, off chambered, and was a bit damp but
otherwise flatish across.

We were to host a group of government trail-bikers in a couple of days so I needed to check for downed trees and was in a bit of a hurry, so to be sure I locked front and rears and put the 4800 Patrol into charge mode.

Momentum carried us up over the steeper part but the rear wheels then slid out as I backed off slightly when a Wallaby shot out.

Lost traction instantly and slewed to a stop.
I knew this was going to be a pain so rather than mess around I immediately
grabbed the plasma winch rope and attached it to a tree 10m away.

I only needed to winch 1 car length to be clear.

Long ago I fitted the winch activation switches inside the car so they could
only be used by the driver with a return to centre off position switch
so that winch would stop if not held on.

I also only use 1 battery in the car to save weight and this usually means we run the engine to ensure the winch has enough current to pull strongly.

The cars in neutral and I'm watching the scenary go passing slowly by as the
winch pulls me upwards about 3m, then all of a sudden Wack! and I'm going backwards.

If you have never been chewing the cud winching up a hill and the rope snaps then I can say with confidence its an instant wake up call.

Afterwards I thought, you have about 3 seconds here till the cars over the edge and will need a lot of panel beating.

At the time though, all I remember was instantly applying the brakes as I routinely have my foot hovering over the pedal just in case.

The brakes locked instantly and we slid , but only about 2m before the car
stops on some rocks.
In that instant, I did not actually know what had happened and instinct
saw me also grab the steering wheel, which meant my hand moved off the
"dead man" Winch switch, de-activating it and making it safe.

Get gingerly out of the car, noting the back wheel is over the rock on the edge
and sure enough the winch rope has snapped about a foot below the hook.

Nothing appears wrong with the rope - its a clean straight out strain type break, there are no abrasive sand particles etc in it , and I cannot think of why it broke.
It should have been under less than 1/2 its breaking strain.

Maybe its 5 years on the winch has allowed Ultra Violet to weaken it,
it has broken on a section likely to be exposed, any thoughts ?
The rope is Masterpull 8mm .

Ok , so I still have to rescue myself, for not the first time this year.

Begin by doing what would have prevented the situation in the first place.
Lowered the tyres to 12 psi.

Then wrap end of rope twice around the tree and tie the rope back to itself loosely.
This is because most of the force pulling on the rope is taken by the friction around the tree.
If it didn't hold, well that would not matter much because this time I would be ready and the lightweight rope with no hook on its end poses no danger.

Back in the car I winch in the slack and just as the winch begins to pull hard I let the clutch out.

The tyres spin , grab , rip a chunk out of the already poor condition Cooper ST
tyres and up we go quite easily.

All is calm , except I will need a decent amount of Shoo Goo to cover the exposed steel belt in one tyre.

About 50m up the track is this Wallaby looking up me, probably wondering about the strange things these humans get up to.


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Reply By: Member - Fred B (NT) - Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 19:27

Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 19:27
Hi Robin,
fortunate you got out of that in one piece......

Just curious, did you have a strap around the tree, or did you place the winch rope around the tree, and the hook back onto the winch rope?
regards,
Fred B
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 19:31

Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 19:31
Hi Fred

Before it broke I had a strap , but to recover I just used the plasma rope wrapped around the tree in an attempt to take the strain off a fixed point and instead distribute it around the tree (1 m diameter)
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 19:34

Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 19:34
Left out , loosely tied the end of the rope back over the original such that I could watch it.
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Follow Up By: Member - Fred B (NT) - Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 19:57

Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 19:57
Thanks Robin,
another question...
when the winch rope was fully retracted onto the winch, how was the hook stored, and did the rope near the hook come into contact with any rart of the bull bar etc that could have caused a weak point?

In any case, you have a story to tell the grand kids about (: ....

I take it, you plan on retiring that winch rope???
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 20:23

Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 20:23
Hi Fred

The hook is stored by clipping it over the bonnet catch in front of the radiator and behind the front grille.

I.E. the weight is taken on the point of the hook and the rope hangs down touching nothing.
(I do not have a bull bar )

The break point was about where the rope comes out onto the drum and where it is first exposed to the sun.
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Follow Up By: Member - Fred B (NT) - Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 22:35

Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 22:35
Hi again Robin,
well, you have certainly stirred some interest. I'm just glad it all ended well for you. Thanks for all your replies.
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Reply By: Tim - Stratford (VIC) - Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 20:08

Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 20:08
G'day Robin,

Just wondering - is 'MILLER' Irish??? You seem to have the luck of someone who killed a Chinaman - but also the luck of the Irish to survive!!! :-)

I checked your profile photos to see how you store your rope and hook - is the breaking point the point on the rope that always rests on the hawse fairlead?

Also noticed one photo showing the stick near your radiator - that one didn't chafe the line???

Be curious if anyone can come up with a valid reason - I run masterpull line, but XD with the full sheath......From now on I might winch with truck in low/reverse with clutch in - if it breaks - DUMP CLUTCH!!!


Tim - Stratford.
AnswerID: 378709

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 20:30

Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 20:30
Hi Tim

I like to shore up my luck by being heavy on primary saftey rather than secondary. I.E. High stability Patrol over a low stability car with multiple air bags.

From those photos you can probably see that the rope goes behind the grille and the hook is hooked over the bonnet catch internally.

The rope would rest , but without load, on the fairlead and this is consistent with both where it broke and where it comes out into the daylight.

Never thought of that stick in the radiator perhaps hitting , possible but doubtful - you would make a good detective.

I am glad , my setup only allows use of winch when inside and in control of the car.

I'm betting on UV exposure over 5 years and will try to find out more.







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Reply By: Members Paul and Melissa (VIC) - Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 20:30

Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 20:30
Is that rope whiteish in colour? i thought Masterpull was a pale Blue? the stuff i last looked at was, i wonder if the rope has been broken down by UV and Inclement weather and 4WD conditions in general? still though a bit of a worry i say it breaking like it did, one of the other responses could be on the money as to where it sits in its parked position.
AnswerID: 378711

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 20:35

Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 20:35
Hi Paul

Mine from 5 years ago is grey in colour , I suspect UV as it sits behind the cars grille almost touched the radiator. It is well protected here and I have examined it under magnification for grit.

The only weak point I can think of is the direct exposure to the sun of the first 1 foot from the hook which is where it has broken.
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Reply By: Member - Donks1 (NSW) - Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 21:11

Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 21:11
G'day Robin

Just looking at your profile and noticed the 8th photo, ( stick caught up ) and wondered if that may be a contributing factor. Looks about the right distance from the hook.

Donks1
AnswerID: 378720

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 21:46

Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 21:46
Hi Donks

I had forgotten about that , but I don't think it hit - you never know.

The ends of the rope didn't really show a cut or slash mark , more sort of what you would expect if it justs pulled apart with big force.
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Reply By: Flywest - Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 22:48

Wednesday, Aug 12, 2009 at 22:48
GSP

Those miracle winch ropes generally are made from either dyneema microfiber or gel spun polyethylene and they can be of the fused or woven variety.

Strength for thickness the fibers are stringer than equivalent steel.

Sounds great and it is BUT.

What they don't tell you:-

1. The fiber breakes down in UV light from sunlight -

2. yes sand within the rope will cut the fibers -

but worse,

3. micro dyneema and Gel Spun Polyethylene fibers - don't take bend radiuses anywhere near 90 degrees or greater without fracturing.

4. It has stretch characteristics below 1%

5. Slippery as a butchers ol fella - In thin GSP the material is so slippery that to get it to grip and to avoid any bends in the fibers near 90 degrees commonly found in many knots - we tie whats called a 100 turn biminin twist knot for fishing purposes.

Youyr pic to me shows the break just behind the end of the woven splice, to me it suggests that at some point in the past maybe that part of the rops has had the hook laced over ot and the direction of pull reversed - such that the bend characteristics are greater than 90 degrees and the fibers have fractured as a result - causing a weak spot.

It's a miracle new material and I wouldn;t fish with anything else BUT it has its unpublicised weaknesses to be aware of!

Cheers
AnswerID: 378742

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 07:41

Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 07:41
Hi Flywest

In this case the rope was being used at about a 50 degree pull , even though though the load was relatively light so its possible this was a factor that just pushed a possibily UV weakened rope over the edge.

As you identify is was notable that it broke just past where the splice finished.

I actually did that splice as well.
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Reply By: warfer69 - Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 01:09

Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 01:09
Hiya Robin

Will catch up at some stage,Reece was very impressed with yourself/wife and your property,We went away to Walhalla for a few days...Deep Creek No1 Track is interesting
lol ,If you haven't done it i can send the gpx file like you did for me about the Avon Area ...

Anyway i have the wire still on my vehicle,if i were to go rope i would have put 10mm on my Hilux just for that extra piece of mind and strength..Why did you not choose this option for the weight of your vehicle ?????..

I know you stated its was about 1/2 its breakage strain but when they test snatch straps a lot break before the manufacturers specs...
All i can say is that when i was floating down the Mitchell River last year i'm glad my mates 80 series Warn winch had wire ! lol

Cheers
AnswerID: 378767

Follow Up By: warfer69 - Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 01:11

Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 01:11
The pic link did not work..

http://picasaweb.google.com/warfer69/Walhalla2009#5369064751987584306
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 07:53

Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 07:53
Hi Warfer

Yes I have been up there and coming out was steep , but it was dry for us and ok, I think there were plenty of blackberries around and we parked in the creek for lunch.

Ok on your comments , Reece seemed to have fun despite the less than ideal camping conditions, and he was very happy that the chains got him out of a sticky situation, with my Nissan hovering in the background and eager to get out another Toyota.

Next time I will get the next size up rope , but not so much for its rating as that should have been enough , but because of another characteristic.

This is that plasma pulls though the other layers much more easily than steel and you top layer can easily be on the bottom if the other layers are not wound on particularly tight. In fact the top layer pulling thru the other layers under load could fray them and I wondered if over time this does not weaken them.
However considering where my broke its unlikely that this was an issue this time.

Its not as expensive now as it was 5 years ago so it will be easier to get thicker rope now.



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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 11:28

Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 11:28
Robin, I think you will find that the manufacturers recommend that you criss-cross the layering and don't wind onto the drum in a nice neat side-by-side fashion. These ropes are used on really big fishing trawlers and the automatic winding device travels backwards and forwards across the layers so the rope does not pull down between the previous lay.

KK
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Follow Up By: warfer69 - Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 15:16

Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 15:16
**Reece seemed to have fun despite the less than ideal camping conditions**

He never mentioned it,He was wrapped to be there..


***with my Nissan hovering in the background and eager to get out another Toyota.***

LOL ive had worse,was pulled up by a 2005 Mitsubishi Challenger lol !


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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 18:22

Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 18:22
Hadn't heard of that Kiwi , must look into it as once I could not pull my rope out of the drum because of that type of jam.
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FollowupID: 646217

Reply By: Moose - Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 08:53

Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 08:53
G'day Robin
Another interesting experience to add to your bulging sack of "misadventures".

Just ignoring the rope issue (don't have a winch so will not directly affect me) but I am interested in some additional advice re the shoo goo for the ripped off bit of rubber.

Was that a serious comment and if so do you stick the ripped off bit back on or just apply goo to cover the belts. I assume the aim is to exclude moisture? Does that stuff really stick that well to survive on a tyre?
Cheers from the Moose
AnswerID: 378779

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 18:30

Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 18:30
Hi Moose

Most certainly a serious comment , Shoo Goo is one of those compounds you can't leave home without.

Its super sticky and capable of being placed on in layers each couple of mm so its sets and I have replaced an entire rubber block in Simpson with it and driven 5000 km home on it. Once I wrote a detailed report about it.

As well as repairing shoes You can patch sidewalls , tubes , radiator hoses etc and even air matteress, anywhere there is a hole.

Its softer and doesn't last as long as tyre rubber , and comes from big sports shops or better Shoe repairs in clear or Black and costs $11.95 to $18 for a 300gm tube

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Follow Up By: Moose - Friday, Aug 14, 2009 at 08:24

Friday, Aug 14, 2009 at 08:24
Thanks Mate
Did a Google on shoo goo and found the past report you mentioned.
Also found it comes in black or clear - the latter solving the ugly airbed repair issue :-)
Cheers from the Moose
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Reply By: Mark R - Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 09:50

Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 09:50
Hi Robin,

I notice in your photo above of the broken rope, there are lots of fibres sticking out of the sides of the rope. I have just checked my own synthetic rope and the external finish is completely smooth with no loose fibre ends sticking out. I am no expert but I wonder if this represents fatiguing from previous use or is the result of UV damage - or maybe normal for the type of rope you have.

Certainly, with the smooth finish on my own rope, I will regard the appearance of fibre ends like this to be a sign of potential weakness.

Interested in the thoughts and experience of others in relation to this.

Regards,

Mark
AnswerID: 378783

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 18:33

Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 18:33
Mark , I tend to think it gets rougher with use as each time a few of the hundreds of fine fibres frays.

I have felt for a while this would be a good wear indicator and I considered mine to be about 90% of original strength as a result.
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FollowupID: 646220

Reply By: Member - Timbo - Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 12:21

Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 12:21
Hi Robin, I don't know much about this rope, but I've heard that it doesn't really like heat. If this is true, it may not be the best storage position as you said earlier 'almost touching the radiator'.
Also, you've said that you store the hook up under the bonnet catch with the rope hanging down with no load on it - I just wonder if the rope has been rubbing back and forth on the fairlead rollers for the past five years which may have started to wear away at the rope (particularly if there was ever grit/dust/dirt/mud/etc. in between the rollers and the rope)?
Either way, it demonstrates again (although without serious mishap) that recovery operations are definitely NOT a spectator event - anyone not directly involved should be kept a clear distance away and certainly not downhill from the vehicle being recovered!
AnswerID: 378804

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 18:41

Thursday, Aug 13, 2009 at 18:41
It does not like heat all right Timbo, I melted the other end of mine once after a heavy winch pull which made the drum to hot to touch.

I certainly examined mine under magnification looking for dirt which I did not find.

Heat may have done something to the end that broke but that end showed no sign of melting and it takes a temp of above 150c (much hotter than radiator) to cause a melt , so I'm still going with the hidden effects of UV.

Saftey considerations are interesting concepts and certainly my requirement of needing to be inside the cocoon of the car when winching has proved useful , and plasama rope makes this possible for me.

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FollowupID: 646223

Follow Up By: Member - Timbo - Friday, Aug 14, 2009 at 12:52

Friday, Aug 14, 2009 at 12:52
Actually Robin, what I was thinking of was the long term effects of heat breaking down the rope - not sure if this is a problem or if I'm just imagining it?!

Also, when I mentioned the grit wearing away the rope, I know that you had mentioned there was no grit found in the broken area, I just wondered if the rope might have been rubbing back and forth along the roller all these years while you were driving, sometimes it could have even had grit/mud/etc. in there although it might have since been washed out (ie. when you washed the car) but would have accelerated wear while it was there.

Otherwise, your suggestion of the UV break-down sounds quite likely too! :) UV is nasty stuff - you know those plastic shopping bags that the greenies say take 200 years to decompose? 2 weeks in the sun and they'll disintegrate in your hand!
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