Logging of our forests.

G'day Porl

I should have said G'day everyone, but Porl, your one word says it all ~ sad.

The timber industry is a very visual example of exploitation of a natural resource, but with sensible management and time, the resource re grows and some form of visual normality comes back, not exactly the same but it does come back. We all use the end product (s) from the timber industry to make our lives easier and smarter, I think we can all agree on this.

Porl, sad is not quite a powerful enough word for what is happening right now in the iron ore mining industry ~ throughout Western Australia, yes we all use the end product (s) of this industry too, but the changes to the landscape are utterly profound and no matter how much the miners and government ~ state and federal flap their gums about rehabilitation and wealth for the state and nation, they leave enormous environmental wastelands behind for the next generations to contend with, now that is ~ very very sad ~ indeed !

Am I a greeny or an activist, absolutely not, do I care about tomorrow, absolutely yes.

Regards:

Agree Crackles,

Forestry NSW do a pretty good job of sustainable forestry. Because the timescale for forestry is so long it can seem brutal at points. The reality is that in order for forests to grow sustainably, they need to be thinned or cleared. Forestry NSW doesn't do clear-felling I believe, so don't know what Ingo saw.

I know the Watagans, but not exactly where Ingo was. For the most part, the roads around there are old (or more accurately dormant) lumber tracks that are now gazetted - in fact if I recall there are a few plantations showing the date of planting and expected maturity as it is largely a sustainable forest. No logging = no / fewer tracks.

See here for info Forestry NSW - Watagans

Hey Crackles,

Where I work we go through 250 tonnes of paper a week, so It's not as though Im siding with Peter Garret.
It was just an observation of a really top family camping/picnic spot an hour and a bit out of Sydney that is starting to look a bit shabby.
Our paper at work comes from areas where It is owned grown and logged specifically and the forests are not enjoyed by the public as a recreation area.
However In saying this I do like my timber house, table and chairs.

Cheers

Ingo,

Why not drop a note to Forestry NSW.

Seriously. They take their forestry seriously and aesthetics are part of that.

As I mentioned above, they have a transparent sustainability and usage structure, so if you saw what you felt was ugly deforestation, then tell them.

They will either explain their actions, point you to whose actions you saw or advise if it's them at all.

You don't make a difference by wringing your hands.

Crackles replied:
Next time you sit on a timber chair at a timber table in a timber house you may just consider where all that wood actually comes from


Only a tiny fraction of natural forest is harvested for the uses you describe.

and even then it is doubtfull ordinarry people can afford it

- My wooden table is certainly not made from Jarra
it is made from crappy woodchips probabally sourced from indonesia.

coments like yours are right up there with
"dont rubish farmers with your mouthfull"


totally ignores the fact that most of the food in Australia heads straight for the docks. Logging is the same - it is for profit, only a fraction supplies us with esential needs

Get Outmore,

Are you a Today Tonight reporter?

definitly not - you wont find much truth in what they say

Correct.

Nor yourself.

please elaborate as to what part is incorrect?
and while your at tit enlighten me has to how much state forest natural timber you have been able to afford in the last few years. i certainly cant affort the Jarra that gets logged

You Fail

http://www.australianexporters.net/companyID3662.htm

Jensen Jarrah Pty Ltd Australian $
Company revenues: $6,000,000
Export revenues: $2,200,000


this company exports over 1/3 of these forest products with the rest being sold locally to thiose that can afford it

so dont try and tell me how essential this logging is for my household neccessaties

Hi Get Outmore,

Thank you for your fantastic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Your link (and overall assertion) provides no evidence for your following claims:

- a tiny fraction of natural forest is harvested for the uses [Crackles] describe

- crappy woodchips probabally sourced from indonesia [for a wooden table]

- most of the food in Australia heads straight for the docks

Moreover it doesn't provide any suggestion that NSW Forestry are irresponsibly managing their care.

So your point is...

Woah. Someone (me) can't read instructions.

Here is a description of the Strawman fallacy.

so i ask again - how much native timber from state forests do you buy for your household neccessaties

which is the basis of the original coment

as is the fact australia exports around $5 billion dollars worth of weat just for starters the basis for saying farmers dont just grow food to make sure Australians are fed.

In a nutshell i get a bee in my bonnet when people suggest any primary industry is about supplying people with basic needs rather than making as much money as possible any way possible.

i am in the mining industry and no i dont do it so people have a car to drive and stainless steel cutlery

You didn't read the strawman fallacy link, did you.

Your question is IRRELEVANT to any aspecty of the topic.

You ramble about wheat (so we sell a surplus?) without understanding international trade. I've never had a problem buying flour or bread in Australia.
What is your point?

You ramble about woodchips from Indo without any support.
What is your point?

You suggest that primary industry should provide locals basic needs without any expectation or need.
What is your point?

Just for you, the principle is give and take. I give you wood, you give me a) money; b) goods.
What is your point?

Welcome to the post-Neanderthal Age.

That is the basic and fundamental purpose of trade - to share produce for exchange or sale. Is that troubling you? Cuba would be an eye opener for you then.

So again, what is your point?

THIS is my point

Crackles replied:
Next time you sit on a timber chair at a timber table in a timber house you may just consider where all that wood actually comes from


and the answer is....................... not fom Australian state forests!

which is what the post is about
................ get the point??

Basically, no.

You quote someone else's view without stating your point.

Get a grip, man.

Are you saying that we should bemoan (your view) that wooden products being sold in Australia are made from non-Australian timber?

Or, are you saying we should bemoan (your view) that products made from Australian timber are expensive?

At the extreme, are you saying that we should not export commercially lucrative (and renewable) resources in return for revenue?

Your words would be great here, but they seem to escape you.

"how much native timber from state forests do you buy for your household neccessaties .....which is the basis of the original coment "
Seeing you asked, the frame of my house is hardwood, my chairs, table, architraves, pelmets, skirting & much of the ceiling along with the entire kitchen. But somehow in this discussion the entire point seems to have been lost. It matters not exactly where the timber from the Wattagans has gone as this cleared area of bush is going to grow back.
Cheers Craig............

Crackles makes an extremely valid point...

timglobal

You want my point of view?
my POV is yes by all means perform this logging - but dont try and dress it up as any other way other than making money.
Crackles was making it sound like i would have no house or furniture without state forest logging.

Well I type this sitting on a metal and plastic chair on a table made from some type of pine chips imported by IKEA. My barbie i made myself from meranti pine etc etc
I have no problems with the australian products being made into stuff I cant afford - theres plenty of things I want but cant have. Our produce should be high end and value added

None of which changes the fact that if all the state forest timber i had ever bought dissapeared it would have NO impact on my life
so trying to make it sound like these logging activiies are important for my seating arrangements is not correct

You should probably re-read the thread.

Nargun,

Agree. We also have to make choices - make the forest sustainable, make it untouchable, or remove it.

Personally I'm a big fan of a reasonable combination of the first two. If no-one can access the amazing Australian forestry, then no-one will appreciate it. That doesn't mean a 4WD track everywhere.

A fine line to tread, but my personal judgement is on favour of controlled / responsible access rather than exclusion.

Not so sure about your farming analogies, but understand your point.

Interesting you should say that: those pictures look exactly like NSW National Park "conservation works" that the rangers do to keep people out of NPs ie. bulldoze a stand of trees across the track, or bulldoze a stand of trees to give them room to manouvre their bulldozer to pile up mounds of rubble across the track... the worst such devastation I've ever seen (apart from harvested pine plantations) was at the entrance to a NSW NP.

Selective logging is an option for some areas but often clear felling, burning & aerial seeding will end up with a better end result. Alpine Ash for example needs the entire area to be cleared in order for new Ash trees to regenerate. (Wont grow up through an existing canopy).
Cheers Craig............

Read my link above.

NSW Forestry doesn't clear fell. If you have contrary evidence, then advise them - they will take this very seriously.

I'd like to shake Mrs. Pointyhead's hand.

To my simple (albeit informed) mind, she talks sense.

Please name and shame the protection compromise as that is deplorable.

It's private enterprises that usually rort the system, albeit abetted by the government.

Government is usually cretinism or corruption; private enterprise is greed or cronyism.

We all have a responsibility for vigilance on this, I believe.

Have to disagree there signman there is one thing worse than both and thats a WINGER!!!!!!!!!

Hiya Ingo,
Dunno if that was aimed at me. But I prefer not to play as a WINGER-
better in the back row!!

Hehe
Fairdinkum...........got me both times, not even going to try a comeback.

A whinger is a lot worse than a winger, wingers at least usually just huff and puff while they are playing the game.
Whingers on the other hand complain and make nuisances of themselves and are generally not very popular, (not that I am whinging about anything - lol.)

On the issue of the logging, I too find the vision of clear felling to be ghastly and nightmarish. My old man was a sawmiller of the selective logging variety and I am comfortable with that, I love timber products. I believe that we should be value adding to the timber or chips here rather than sending raw materials off to somewhere that can produce something cheaper than we can - makes me wonder if they had to pay a "fair" price for our raw materials, could they in fact produce paper cheaper than we can? (I live 25klms from a paper mill in Hobart).

I feel that there are insufficient constraints placed on the conglomerates who operate the timber/logging industry, as mentioned above they are about $$$$$, while they can get away with raping and pillaging our forests and then burning what they don't want or can't economically harvest and justifying it as regeneration, they will. Replacing forests with mono-culture tree farms, whilst it must be economically attractive is still a damned eyesore.

BUT - thanks to various State Forest industries we have lots of multi-use areas to enjoy, hell , I wish I could come to terms with all this.....!

This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Personal Attacks Rule .

Forum Moderation Team

GOM,

That is just a ludicrous comment.

Bikes, Cars, Horses, Bullock Drays..... will all rip up the bush. Registering them will not change that.

Jim.

mabe you speed and drinkdrive and break any other law you see fit?

I may not have a clue but even I know unegistered bikes are not legal in that area

so tell me again who doesnt have a clue?

**This fork is a furphy**

By any reasonable view, your bikes were not legally registered.

So I'm afraid you, Get Outmore, seem not to have the clue here.

davoe

You can see the number plates squished over the rear mud grad thingie.

little yellow thing

by the way don't let some one call you a Dick Head ... he's only a youngen..

Cheers

Richard

Hahaha

"He's only a youngen", what is your point Richard??

Get outmore.....build a bridge and get over it!! the bikes are registered. Face it, Your wrong!!
So If you want me to tell you again ok You dont have a clue!!!!!

Nice post Tony.

Agree about logging and unregistered bikes...

Ingo, the floor is yours...

Assumptions of unregistered bikes..... Why dont you all pull your heads in, both bikes are registered and conform to road standards, Pink slip, compulsory third party and paid rego just like any 4wd on this site.

"Most of it unseen by visitors"
There is two large mountains right beside pines camping area that are completely stripped of anything living, your google earth Image is probably a few years old. You speak from what you see on your computer but you obviously haven't been there lately.

"Bike also cause enormous noise pollution on weekend"
Bikes usually leave the camp areas and head for the scrub and are usually out of hearing range in less than a minute, generators and punk doof doof music are more annoying and can go all day and into the night while the bikes are leaning quietly on there stands.

"take waling track and degrade them so badly with wheel ruts that in rain erosion and damage to the area is not repairable"
I see plenty of 4wds doing the same thing all the time (look at your rig pic).

"dangerous as some bikes shoot out of the scrub onto gazetted roads."
I saw a group of 4WD's tear down the fire trails as though they were all racing & for myself there's no way I would go shooting out onto a main fire trail or any crossing track for that matter....why would I take the risk of killing myself.

I post a thread of my OBSERVATIONS of a small trek I did on the weekend and then accusations and assumptions start getting flung around by know it alls.

Some people on this site are really smart behind there keyboards but that's exactly where it ends!

Oh and one other thing

"Noise pollution"
Both bikes have mufflers which are ADR compliant.

Ingo,

In both your photos, both bikes show no legal registration, ie no rego plates in homologated format.

I say this with pain as you appear to be an intelligent Forest user, but you are severely bending any law you pretend to comply with if not showing rego plates.

If I squint, then riveting a rego plate to your sky-facing rear mud-guard isn't legal by even the loosest ADR regs. So whilst I'm sure they are registered, they appear not to be legally registered.

If you aren't legally registered, everything else, including mufflers, is irrelevant. You will be viewed and considered the same as the other red-knecks.

The tripe from others about your choice of enjoying the forest on a bike is irrelevant (or more likely jealousy!) but do at least keep your public nose clean, so to speak.

Like your work, but be wise.

timglobal,

I have to disagree with bending the law I feel that Im up holding it, Its the same as modifying a 4WD which most are guilty of.

Number Plates are shaped to the rear guard for a few reasons one being I have lost number plates and brackets many times, as you are not aware these bikes use all there suspension travel a lot of the time so the correct number plate brackets that have been bent a few times due to falls etc eventually get caught in the rear wheel ripped off and flung into the bush without notice, hence why they go on top of the guard.
The reason why they are bent over the sides of the guards are for the unfortunate case If you need to dismount the bike over the rear guard for an reason, there is less chance of the rego plate slicing the inside of your thigh leaving you in a really bad situation which could easily turn fatal under certain circumstances, this I have seen happen before.

Regardless of what anyone on here "ASSUMES" is legal with trail bikes It is better to have the plates on than not at all. Have been in the middle of fines being handed out left right and centre in state parks on blitz days, all the "Weekend Warriors" which you call Rednecks are issued with a hefty fine and put your bike on the trailer.
When the boys in blue check ours they are more than happy with the set up, In fact we usually end up having a good ol chin wag with em.

Fair call. I can't imagine you would be fined.

I was unfair in lumping you with "redknecks" and apologise. You appear a capable and considerate rider who cares about and enjoys their surroundings.

I'm with you about being pleased to see the police in forests as it means the less desirables will not be there for a bit.

Ingo57,

Wow assumptions abound......

You assumed I said your bike was unregistered.
What I did say that unregistered bikes can be confiscated.

You assume that I have not been in the Watagans recently, I live next to the Watagans travel in or through on a regular basis and was there on Thursday.

What I did state that Creek track New Mill, Farrells etc. etc opposite the Pines and Casurina was the area you proberly saw. So I pinpointed the area for you.

What I did say was "Most of the Watagans have been logged at one time or another. Most of it unseen by visitors." Note "one time or another" not the current logging.

If you look at the Google Earth map and zoom in you will see that its the same area at the start of the logging, then zoom out and you will see that it is a small portion of the Watagans.

You assumed that I made this statement.
This statement was made by the DECC manager of Big Yengo based in Gosford in June this year.
"DECC's biggest worry is that bikes (registered or unregistered) do not keep to the road, but take waling track and degrade them so badly with wheel ruts that in rain errosion and damage to the area is not repairable. Bike also cause enourmous noise polution on weekend. What should be for some a peaceful weekend in the bush becomes noisey and dangerous as some bikes shoot out of the scrub onto gazetted roads."

My rig was not on a walking track but then again is an assumption !

Tony

Didnt you say "You were lucky that the Police were not operation that weekend, unregitered bike can be conferscated."
How am I assuming and why was I lucky then????

Tony you are right, yes I did assume you hadn't been there lately & yes you can see that on google maps but not to what It is today... how old is the google map?? I did renovations to my house 4 years ago and still cant see it on google maps.

"Most of the Watagans have been logged at one time or another. Most of it unseen by visitors." Note "one time or another" not the current logging."
The largest logged area is right next to one of the main camping areas in the Watagans, how can visitors not see it???????

I would like to see the link of where that was stated from the DECC that you claim, would be interested in reading it, Im assuming you have it!!.

Where did I say your rig was on a walking track??

I never assumed your car was on a walking track & nor was our bikes!
I never saw any signs bushwalk such & such 45mins return, kms etc etc on where we rode. If I see a walking track, I have enough commonsense and respect for other forest users and bush walkers not to even consider it.

Tony in all fairness you cant tell me that you or your 4WD club never wanders off a graded dirt Rd, everyone on this site is probably guilty of being bogged or degrading tracks with wheel ruts at one time or another. But this is my assumption you use your 4WD as it was intended and that its not an oversize shopping trolley.

I have ridden trailbikes all my life & I guess I am over the arrogance from dopes (not directed at you) towards motorbikes and bush land.

Like anything, bikes, 4wds, loud music, generators in camp grounds , It only takes one Idiot to ruin it for the majority that do the right thing.

"You must have never heard of Forest management"

Of course I have Richard, Dont really have a problem with it, as said above It was just an observation of what I saw on the weekend!

Again.... Whats your point Richard????

Aren't Yamahas better than Suzukis?
lol

Lol.... I do agree with that Gary however the release of the Suzuki 2010 model looks pretty healthy

Gday Robin,

Both Yamaha's mate! WR 250 and a WR 400F.
The 250 is a current model and my 400 is late 2000 now getting a bit tired,
looking at upgrading next year to a new KTM 450..gidyup!!!!

Must say the WR's are a good all round package with heaps of power on tap and a decent weekend only tourer, I am for ever re-shimming valve clearances when it gets hard to start.
Compared to the DRZ and KLR the WR's need a lot more routine maintenance and oil changes.

Simpson on a bike again you lucky bugger, Im extremely jealous but I hope all goes well. I will be interested how the new bike performs.
Which way are you going across and how many bikes??

I don't no guys - One day I'll show the video of my son jumping Big Red
fresh from wining the Birdsvilles races bike race last Year on the mighty RMZ 250
race bike, against all the locals 450's.

Ingo , just going for a play this time with KTM 250 2 stroke and WRF450 and KLR450X and 5 riders.

I want drive the K1 line , its easy but always driven past it.

Most likely just head out to Poepells from Birdaville , down K1 and up Knolls
then back to Birdsville simply because Warburton xing is still closed.

Yes well Chad Reed wouldnt jump ship to the yellow If they were no good that is for sure, and now they are injected It's endless what you can do to them to trick em up. When I used to Race motocross Yammies and Zukis were the only manufacturers I rode, these days yammie through and through....that is until next year.

Sounds like you guys are going to have a stack of fun, all the best on your trip mate and stay safe!

Cheers