Safety Devices for heading bush or out into the elements

Thats a bit hrsh , isnt it?
If youve lived in harsh conditions surely you would understand that they arent harsh to everyone?
Or you could always ban going out in the hot, or cold, or windy, or calm or any other condition that doesnt suit everyone else???

No its not harsh at all.

You read the weather listen to what they say and if snow is on the cards as it was in this case you stay home.

There are plenty of other weekends to go walikng if you survive one stupid outing.

Besides having had to work in up to waist deep snow its not exactly a lot of fun either.

Wind heat and the other things you mention wont kill you as fast as hypothermia.

Hope on his inflated salary he has to pay some of the search costs.

Just recently a prominent person did exactly the same in NZ and he and his

companion died . found frozen solid.

When i was working in the bush a schoolteacher took a party over a pass into

a storm and several died. Others with more sense who turned back lived.

We got to help carry the bodies out frozen as solid as a rock.

The greatest safety thing sometimes is common sense.

If in doubt dont go.

"Only an idiot goes bushwalking in snow and adverse weather conditions. "

- and if you insist on going solo walking in these conditions, take along something that can inform searchers where you are if you're disabled, since you don't have a partner to do it !!!!

"The greatest safety thing sometimes is common sense."


We're talking about a politician here!!!!

You can't expect ANY logic to be used

Peter

"Only an idiot goes bushwalking in snow........ But I forgot this is a politician enough said"
You forget that there were 20 other hikers up Feathertop that weekend & no doubt hundreds of others accross the state elsewhere so being a politician in this case is completely irrelivant.
Idiot... no I don't think so, just underestimated the conditions & didn't quite go prepared enough.

Cheers Craig..............

Correct me if Im wrong but I thought SPOT uses Globalstar satellite.

As we know it isnt the most reliable bird in the sky.

Wouldnt like to have my life relying on it.

SPOT depends only on the Globalstar Receivers which are OK - it's the Globalstar Transmitters that are failing.

Thanks Mile I wasnt aware of that so what do you thinl of the Spot system?

It's a private system, so it doesn't have the reliability of an EPIRB, but it has the versatility of being able to send different types of messages.

A friend reviewed SPOT for a 4x4 magazine. He warned me that SPOT is very limited in its ability to get a signal out compared to an EPIRB, and that there have already been issues in Australia (On shore and offshore) of people with SPOT in trouble not having their distress call received. For example, if you are in a gully SPOT is virtually useless his testing indicated, but EPIRB will still get a signal out.

SPOT is certainly a useful gadget and has its place but you would not want to bet you life on it.

Did your mate test an EPIRB in the same place as the SPOT? I'll wager not.

I've used my SPOT across the world and it works fine in my experience, but like any system it isn't 100%.

Being originally for Air and Marine, EPIRB design assumes a flat ground plane - like the sea for instance ;) It also means that if the EPIRB doesn't work, you don't hear about it, as no-one lives to tell the tale...

You're right that in a gully a SPOT may have difficulty, but so will an EPIRB....

Both use a GPS to locate you. Both use LEO satellites, with EPIRB also using GEO satellites. GEO are of little help in gully situations

The best advice if you come to grief in a gully is to get to a better position.

If one reads the instructions, one knows this...

"Both use a GPS to locate you. Both use LEO satellites, with EPIRB also using GEO satellites. GEO are of little help in gully situations "

The EPIRB system was designed from day 1 to give position reporting without depending on GEO satellites.

SPOT does does not have that capability.

And?
GEO sats don't provide location info except for the "it deployed somewhere in the Pacific" level info.
LEO are what provide doppler location which with 406 by itself is of the order of 5km.
You sound like you're not very familiar with satellite tracking.

You also overlook that a SPOT is a PLB, not an EPIRB. Yet gives almost parity service in use at a much lower cost.

This allows more users to afford and easily carry the reassurance of a satellite transmitter which is at the same time more accurate in its position.

To clarify -

EPIRB/PLB/ELT - most people don't know about the difference - they all use the same satellites. Most people recognise the term EPIRB but not the others.

GPS PLB - uses moving GPS satellites to determine position to within metres and sends info within minutes to Geostationary satellite.

Non-GPS PLB (or GPS PLB unable to get GPS fix) - uses Low Earth Orbit satellites to determine position within 5km but may take several hours.

SPOT - uses moving GPS satellites to determine position to within metres and sends info to next Globalstar satellite that comes in view. If it can't get GPS fix it can't report position.

Almost right...

A GPS PLB still relies on getting a GPS fix, which depends on location and environment. If it doesn't get one, it will still fire as doppler can locate to 5km(ish) as you note.
It doesn't use the GEO as a relay. GEO is basically a top level alert system which tells them to expect a signal from the LEOs on next pass.
The LEO holds the alert info and passes it to the ground station when it next passes. This can be up to 90 minutes.

SPOT will still provide a location-less alert if no fix is available, which can provide a rudimentary alert. With some processing a very rough area can be calculated, but this is not simple.

So SPOT and a GPS PLB are differentiated more by price and legal requirements than anything else.

For those following at home:
LEO = Low Earth Orbit Sats - move all the time close to earth.
GEO = Geostationary Sats a loooooong way in space and located over the equator giving coverage from about 70degs to equator.

TeraFirma - take note of the above three posts. Now you are starting to get to grips with what device can do what. It aint as straight forward as simply buying a device and thinking people will know where I am and come get me if I push a button.

A couple of LEO doppler 'fixes' will often occur within 90 minutes but depending on your lattitude in a worst case scenario it could be up to 11 or 12 hours to get a positive 'fix'.

KK

"It doesn't use the GEO as a relay. GEO is basically a top level alert system which tells them to expect a signal from the LEOs on next pass. "

NO - It's not that hard to get the facts right ! http://www.cospas-sarsat.org/Description/concept.htm

"GEOSAR - Beacon identification provided, and location information available if encoded in beacon message - Near instantaneous alerting. GEOSAR system consists of 406 MHz repeaters".

Are you suggesting the GEOSAR Repeaters somehow filter out the positioning information that will be picked up by a LEOSAR on its next pass ????

The only reason they spent so much money on GEOSARs was to provide much faster position reporting from GPS EPIRBs.

The friend did test SPOT in the same places as EPIRBS. He also contacted the Australian Maritime Safety Authority for their comments which is where he found out about SPOT distress alerts that where lost and was given a heads up on the limitations of SPOT.

Also, remember that not all EPIRBS have the GPS functionality. His comment to me is that SPOT is a useful tool but you would not want to bet your life on it.

So if I was going to spend my $$ on a device with the best chance of saving me in a emergency then I would get a EPIRB.

The people who sell SPOT may disagree, but I personally prefer to trust the comments from AMSA.

The story he wrote can be found here:

http://www.overlander.com.au/equipment/index.php?id=91

I am no expert in these things, but I do know my friend is very thorough in his research

KK, I have read all the posts and understand that EPIRBS for example may be slow to report a position in some cases, I don't want to argue on the pros and cons of EPIRBS, what I will say is they work, they save lives everyday all over the world, so whilst it's ok to to point out deficiencies why don't you also talk about the positives, I for one hate negativity.

If it were me I would be carrying a GPS and a GPS Enabled Digital EPIRB, I would attempt to Navigate my way out with my GPS as I know them back to front and I always get a signal, rain, hail, cloud cover. If for some reason I couldn't make my own way due to injury and the scenario was life threatening I would activate my EPIRB, now if all that failed, I would die peacefully knowing I did all I could and my time was up.!

I think everyone has also forgotten Tim Holding got lost, this has been confirmed now, I'm sick of all the people who ask us to wait for the facts, the facts are in "HE GOT LOST" . How many times do you need to hear it?

If he had of had a map and GPS he "COULD" have made his own way back down the mountain. Now he didn't and I think all Terrafirma was suggesting was perhaps the man thought nothing would phase him and some technology may have helped, we all know technology has it's limitations but I would rather have it as it has always worked for me.

Mike,

You're missing the point that we are talking about a gully situation. Getting a GEO signal from a gully is very, very unlikely. As is getting a GPS fix. That's the point if you read closely.

Yes, if a GPS fix is transmitted to a GEO it is used to locate and then used in conjunction with info from the next LEO pass as the GPS is likely not fully hot when initial fix sent.

No, LEOs do not communicate with GEO satellites. They both only transmit to the ground stations.

Do keep up, or at least ahead of your fury-filled typing fingers.

Pointy,

I'm very surprised if he was given permission to deploy an EPIRB for direct comparison and he makes no reference to it in the article. As I said before no system is 100% and lost distress calls happen with both systems.

If you're in a gully, you're likely shafted with either SPOT or a GPS PLB for the reasons outlined above.

"You're missing the point that we are talking about a gully situation. "
- you need to learn to write more clearly - if you're only talking about gullies. write it, don't imply it.

"No, LEOs do not communicate with GEO satellites. They both only transmit to the ground stations. "
- what ???? You need to learn to read more clearly - I never wrote anything of the sort. I quoted from the COSPAS SARSAT website - if you think it's wrong, tell them.

"Do keep up, or at least ahead of your fury-filled typing fingers. "
- ah yes, personal insults, now you're getting desperate.

Hey Mike DID, What is the DC Power connector in your profile picture? Looks like a piece of ingenuity, can you give me a heads up, I like the look if it?

Rgds, Terra
P.S. If you have anything to email me plse do it via deanw@emergingit.com.au

Mike,
The gully aspect has been very clear in this thread if you read it.

There is a reasonable expectation that a poster has read the thread to intelligently contribute.

In terms of your C-S quote, it is very accurate, however your point appeared to be around my confirming that GEOs are repeaters. It's a recondite point to the verge of irrelevance. If I misunderstood what you point was, then please tell as you said yourself - you merely quoted without any context of your point.

You shouted "NO - It's not that hard to get the facts right !" when you had misunderstood the thread and what I was saying. I suggested that you understand what you are posting and wind your neck in. That isn't a personal attack. Nor am I desperate. You'll know if I personally attack you.

Mrpointyhead, I read your friends description of what happens when you activate an EPIRB. Please note that it requires two passes of a low orbit receiver before an accurate position fix can be confirmed (on a non-gps equipped beacon). These passes COULD be many hours apart. On the first pass two possible positions are noted. On the second pass there will also be two possible positions noted but only one of these will coincide with the possible positions noted when the first satellite passed over head. The coincidence coordinates will be the location of the beacon. However, the two possible positions noted by a passing low orbit satellite will be a few thousand km apart. The rescue centre will not know (without checking the database) if the emergency signal is coming from a boat / aircraft / 4wd etc. If you have registered your EPIRB for land use you may think that it is obvious which is the correct position of the beacon. But, what if you have loaned your beacon to a friend who is going sailing ? The rescue centre does not what to task assets to an area of ocean if the search should be a few thousand km away on land hence the need for a second satellite pass to 'fix' the beacon position.

Mike,

I am afraid that it's a fact of life that gullies and gorges go with big hills and mountains and in this case a person is in the mountains and slides down hill into a ...?

KK

We've tested modern GPSs with SiRF III chips and they work very well in gullies and moderately in canyons.

I assume GPS-EPIRBs do use these latest GPS chips.

"If you have registered your EPIRB"

One of the important aspects of registering digital EPIRBs is getting a contact phone.

When there's an activation, AusSAR will call your contact to find out roughly where you might be. It gives them a good clue as two which of the two position solutions is most likely.

Users are also encouraged to register their trip plans on the AusSAR website.

Mike,

You're right, there are some very clever GPS chips out there, but...

COSPAS only works to 124m resolution, no matter how flashy your GPS chip. So you may get a fix more reliably, but it won't increase your location accuracy to your rescuers.

SPOT works to available accuracy that I've found to be about 2-3m in ideal conditions. Can be much greater if you're moving in tree cover, etc.

Due to the different functions and technologies in any such device (GPS is rx; 406 is tx) then it may know where you are, but it will still be restricted to the RF limitations of the GEO and LEO sats to get your distress message out.

Thanks for your input Landy, you make some very valid points and the simple compass and map is also a life saver.

"A friend and I are about to undertake a 250klm cross country walk. Our only technology will be a map and compass, which is not prone to any failure other than our ability to use it and I am more than comfortable with that. "

If you tell anyone when you are due back, then a few days after that date, the Police are legally obliged to SPEND TAXPAYERS MONEY and to RISK LIVES to start searching for you - knowing only that you could be ANYWHERE near that 250km line.

Mike

With all due respect you know nothing of the planning for our trip, or what arrangements we may have in place for our safety....

Cheers

You chose how much information to give about your trip.

People can only comment based on that.

Mike

Perhaps it is best not to comment if you can only assume certain things...but mate, I'm not interested in getting all worked up about this...I'm the only guy that has to be comfortable with it...

Besides, I understand completely where you are coming from on the search and resue level and they are valid points. However, don't overlook the desire for others to challenge themselves against the elements and the ability of people to do that without incident...

I take sole responsibility for my own safety and well-being and all my planning is done with that in mind. I don't plan trips on the basis that my back-up plan is being rescued.

A final comment on PLBs...the day you legislate for people undertaking trips in remoter parts will be the day that our search and rescue services start to be taxed to their operational capabilities. And that will simply lead to a dilution of the services they are able to provide as they respond to calls from people whose only back-up plan was to press the button on the expensive PLB they were forced to buy.

Appreciate your comments, cheers...

"I take sole responsibility for my own safety and well-being and all my planning is done with that in mind."

- the only way you can do that in todays society is by not telling anyone where you've gone and when you'll be back.


"I don't plan trips on the basis that my back-up plan is being rescued. "
- that's what makes searching so expensive for taxpayers - 8 days searching for Jamie Neale, 6 days searching for David Iredale . . . .


"A final comment on PLBs...the day you legislate for people undertaking trips in remoter parts will be the day that our search and rescue services start to be taxed to their operational capabilities. "
- look at the statistics on how many EPIRBs are already out there and how many searches are being undertaken using the old technology. With Digital EPIRBs that can be uniquely identified, Registration to allow contacting of next-of-kin and GPS-equipped EPIRBs giving orecise location it will be a new era - if only people accept that taking an EPIRB is not an insult to their survival ability.

I remember the bitter complaints when seatbelt-wearing was made compulsory - but it had the desired result.

Giddday Hairy

Do you have have a back room I can bunk down in untill this dribble runs it's course? Fair Dickum!

Regards

Kim

AAaarghhh.....
I think Im working it out.
Did this bloke go out into the elements without gadgets?
Shock horror!!!!
How dare he? Is some one saying it was cold and snowing? What a stupid time to go snow walking!!!
Its a bit like city people driving on dirt roads without a tour operator or non-city people going to Sydney without a tom tom?
Im disgusted! Ban it I say...Ban It!

The poor bugger would hardley be home....and your judging him??????

Like the gadgets your using to join this thread? Yes I thought so? Enough said..

"Did this bloke go out into the elements without gadgets? "

He told his partner when he was due back, so 12 hours after that, the Police are legally obliged to SPEND TAXPAYERS MONEY and to RISK LIVES to start searching for him - knowing only he was somewhere near Feathertop.

Twenty years ago there was no alternative - today there is cheap and light technology to greatly reduces the risk to searchers who HAVE TO go out to help, in the unlikely event that things go wrong.

You must have a vested interest in TAXPAYERS MONEY, Mike DID, since you seem to repeat it ad nauseum in your diatribe on a host of subjects on this forum.

The whole bloody country is run on TAXPAYERS MONEY !!!!!

So what?

So I assume you would have no concerns if $100,000 of taxpayers money was spent on searching for you if you had an accident, just because you didn't want to spend an extra $600 after spending $60,000 on vehicle and equipment.

An interseting conundrum Mike. Does the tax payer just cop it sweet & fund 200 search's at $100,000 or do 200,000+ people go out & pay $600 for an item 99.99% will never use & then still pay a reduced cost to search for those lost as well as the 100's that will be set off accidently?
You've highlighted a good question.
Cheers Craig............

Mike,

You're ignoring some key facts in your slightly simple, emotive argument.

Any bush accident costs thousands of dollars. Much of that cost is standing cost. We have a SAR capability on standby at all times for this. It costs roughly the same if it's being used or not.

An EPIRB may have reduced alert time, but the the location element.

A GPS PLB / SPOT may have reduced alert time and given more precise location information.

Neither of those facts would reduce the cost to the taxpayer.

Now let's go over the old cookie as to whether he should pay ( The paying for rescue thread )

"Neither of those facts would reduce the cost to the taxpayer. "

If you ask the searcher who suffered a broken arm, closely avoiding a fatality, seven days after Jamie Neale decided it wasn't worth picking up a free EPIRB as he walked past Katoomba Police Station, you'll get a different view on the cost of needless searches for people "out there somewhere".

Mike,

You have a remarkable line in fallacies, don't you.
In this case, asking me to assume the answer of someone that we don't know, their experience and you cannot quote or name.

You start off citing taxpayer dollars, then when your point becomes weak, cite rescuer injuries. It's a known risk of any rescue and one taken on board by a rescue searcher.

I can't ask them what they think. You clearly don't know the answer. So what is your point?

If you wish my view on what went wrong with Jamie Neale, then I think he was overconfident, underprepared and underinformed - the latter being a wider issue of EPIRB hire advertising. I frequent the Blueys, but have seen, heard or read about EPIRB hire. For all the searchers, he eventually walked out on his own...

So a nice try, but do use lucid comparison to support your rants.

Mike

Your point, made a thousand times is clear to most of us. However, the choice remains with the individual, as hard as you might find that to accept.

In terms of specific cases you raise, it may well be that Jamie Neale was not aware that he could pick up an EPIRB from Katoomba Police station, perhaps he was. Either way he didn’t have one and that necessitated a search.

At the risk of sounding controversial here; those involved in search and rescue make a decision to do so, and in doing so acknowledge the risks involved and associated with such activity. In saying that, I am most grateful that such people exist, support them, and hope that I never need their services.

It's great, but if walking bush, it chews the batteries v fast so take a charge / power solution...

Tim, I have a couple of solutions for keeping my Iphone up and running. I have a Mili Power Pack which is like an Iphone cradle that you slide the Iphone into, it is 2000Mah around twice the capacity of the Iphone. I also have another power pack which supports any USB device along with the Iphone, I calculate around 3 days worth of power, off course far more with calculated use of the power. Motion X-GPS allows you to turn the phone off whilst still recording your track and navigating. Brilliant little app IMO.

The other thing I believe in is a Telstra Next G Phone with external aerial capability, this manages reception in some very isolated areas.

Nice ideas - will look at them.
What is the other powerpack? Are they heavy?
Amusingly I've actually used Google Maps on my iPhone for bush navigation. When my GPS maps run out of accuracy to view tracks I've fired it up, but of course it requires cell signal.

The Mili is around $79 on Ebay delivered, I like this because it becomes part of the Iphone , see review:

http://www.ilounge.com/index.php/reviews/entry/phonesuit-mili-power-pack-for-iphone/

The power pack was something I picked up at San Francisco Airport in desperation, it is a little cumbersome with a power pack to carry and cable to your Iphone, however it charges the Iphone twice from flat, so you could use it for simply charging rather than carry while navigating etc. There are a few other options discussed on the URL I have attached.

I also use the Navionics system on my Iphone for marine navigation as a back up to my main GPS systems on my boat, the GPS function certainly sucks on the battery so these little gadgets are a blessing.

That's still a lot more useful than the info searchers had about Tim's location - he's left Federation Hut . . . . . .

Kiwi,

Agree and like a dolt, I posted the same info higher up.

Mike,

An EPIRB would have told them pretty much that he was on Mt Feathertop. They knew that already...
I'm failing to see, apart from certainty of peril, how a normal EPIRB would have helped.

"An EPIRB would have told them pretty much that he was on Mt Feathertop. They knew that already...
I'm failing to see, apart from certainty of peril, how a normal EPIRB would have helped."

You expected ground crews to search along the base of every cliff in near Feathertop he may have fallen down ???

If the visibility hadn't cleared for several days, they MAY have eventually found a body at the base of the cliff that wasn't in his carefully made plans.

So how would the EPIRB have helped clear the vis?

He didn't have one and they found him when vis cleared.

If he had one, they would have still likely only found him when vis cleared, albeit possibly in a smaller area using 121.5 directional receivers to help. Reviewing the area, this is a very slim advantage.

I'm not sure what your point is.

If he'd thought about what others were doing at the time and he set off an EPIRB when he realised others would start to search for him, ground parties could have walked directly to his location, not taking unnecessary risks sending many parties out in exposed locations.

They would also have sent aircraft to his exact location when they knew there was a break in the cloud cover at that location and confirmed his state of health and dropped emergency supplies to him.

"If he had one, they would have still likely only found him when vis cleared, albeit possibly in a smaller area using 121.5 directional receivers to help. Reviewing the area, this is a very slim advantage."

- which part of this confuses you?

You clearly have no knowledge or experience of SAR. You also have a romantic view of EPRIB capabilities and drawbacks.

In poor vis, ground units will always go in anyway. As I stated above, his rescue position and time would be unlikely to improved with a bog (non-GPS) EPIRB.

This is specific to this case and differs by situation.

What actually found him was a secret squirrel AFP plane anyway, which used IR/FLIR to detect his body heat...

One difference in a similar scenario here, if an epirb/plb was used is that an aircraft could have attempted to home the 121.5 or 406 transmissions and localised the area. This is a very common scenario, particularly down in Tassie walking trails.

A minor point is that IR/FLIR are not great at unalerted detections as in a wide area search. They are great at assisting in the alerted phase, ie the aircraft homes the beacon to a approx position and then the FLIR/NVGs can be focussed on that general location. Most EMS (rescue/police) helo crews are pretty good at this, as are the Fixed Wing Dorniers

One other aspect is that without some form of alerting device, when you get into trouble, nobody will know until you don't' "turn up". Often people say they are going out for the day and will be home for dinner. Problem is that dinner coincides with night, so the initial searches are hindered by darkness. If you fell over, got into trouble at say "lunchtime" as least if you had some form of alerting device you could alert people earlier. Much better to get rescued a few hours after you fall then wait another 6 hours until someone notices you missing.

Quotes from AFP admits to part in Holding rescue - ABC News

"The Australian Federal Police has confirmed it loaned an aircraft to Victoria Police in the search for missing State Government Minister Tim Holding, who was lost for two nights in the Victoria's alpine region."

"Earlier today Victoria Police Deputy Commissioner Kieran Walshe refused to be drawn on reports that a top-secret spy plane equipped with cutting edge surveillance technology was used in the hunt for Mr Holding."

"Yesterday Premier John Brumby said he had expected Mr Holding to be found alive on Mt Feathertop because his torchlight and body heat had been spotted on the mountain on Monday night."

"Reports today say the Monday night sighting was made by a mystery plane equipped with either infra-red or thermal imaging equipment."

You make plenty of good points Craig.

Craig, it isn't many years back that there were two lives lost there and the bodies only found after the snow thawed.

Being a state minister would have provided him with plenty of capability to buy and pay the annual service on a SPOT. I only hope he will before he goes again, but perhaps it is an indication of the way he makes decisions. Others will carry my risks.

I watched my brother fall while skiing off the top & slid 400m down the same side Tim apparently went. Not alot of room for error there. It doesn't surprise me people have been killed on the summit. I suppose if it was easy there would be little point doing it ;-)
As for the politics, the whole thing has been blow out of proportion. There wouldn't have been half the helicoptors or rescuers for an avaerge Joe & the assistant police commissioner certainly wouldn't have been onsite overseeing it.

Cheers Craig............

I think there's youtube video of something similar on Feathertop - was that you?

Not me.

Then this might be of interest (to one and all)

These guys appear to have had a sat or cell phone.

Be aware if you're squeamish about blood, then prepare to turn away. Note this was done in extremely favourable conditions...

Feathertop Winter Rescue

Yes I saw this Tim, he took a big chunk out and then you see his nose, what a mess, but yes they called the chopper for help, did you see part 2, when they winched hm up, the rescuer slid down as well and had to be helped.

He was very calm for the amount of damage he had done to himself, they did come across as very capabale and having planned for something like this.

Who is "we"?

Are you representing someone?

Nice rig Equinox, how is Lake Cowan nowdays? We is the people who put the survival tips together, not me.

Yeah KIM !!......
"People on this Forum hav a right to there views "
Well ...everyone except you by the sounds.

LOL

Gidday Hairy

I stand corrected. Thank you for putting me on the road to self rightenous.

Somehow I must have skipped a few too many blocks around the gum tree!

LOL

Regards

Kim

Just being delayed ie holding up during adverse weather, is not a reason to activate a beacon. Life threatening situation is. If you come across a serious road accident and do not have telephone reception then feel free to activate your beacon. You do not have to be out in the bush.

KK

Life or death situation is fairly clear.

If the immediate alert and response of emergency help would likely result in death, it's "life-or-death".

It isn't precise, but pretty clear.

Richard

Regading your question: "what is a life or death situation and when to activate it?"

The book answer is that an epirb is a Distress Signal, much like a mayday call. So when the life is in imminent danger"

But in practical terms,as an example: if you are bogged on a sandhill and all you have is an epirb, don't wait until you have run out of water. Better to use the beacon as soon as you know that you most likely cant get out by yourself. Would sooner have a healthy person rescued then find a critically ill or dead person.

Same as if you think you are in trouble during the day, don't wait till it is night to set it off. There are lots of advantages to searching for someone in the day time. For example if you are outback somewhere and set it off in the day, it is normal and often quicker to chase down a local station helicopter/aircraft to fly out and check you out. They can relay what they have seen and the rescue/assistance can start. At night, a dedicated search aircraft is often required so it can home in on your beacons signal and then try and see you with infra red cameras, spotlights or if possible land.

People don't get charged for activating their beacons because they felt like they were in danger - (but no its not a aerial taxi service).

The best thing is now that you have the new beacon, make sure it is registered and your nominated contacts know what your plans are.

It is much better to be searching for "Richard, who has two others with him, and he is driving in his white Toyota Landcruiser" then an unknown.

It also helps for the initial detection if you dont have a GPS unit, or you picked up by an orbiting satellite. With the orbiting ones your beacon will have two positions, the real one and another one on the opposite side of the satellite's track . So if the two positions are "near Birdsville and in Perth" and the RCC rings your contact who says you are heading across the Simpson - guess which spot can be searched straight away

Thanks for that. Makes sense.

**If you come across a serious road accident and do not have telephone reception then feel free to activate your beacon. You do not have to be out in the bush. **

This is interesting to me Kia,as by the time they get and locate the signal,the chances if your not out in the bush someone will be somewhere soon is quite high,do you know how long after activation you would be located with lets say a helicopter/plane..

I know you could say how longs a piece of string but can you giv me an idea please..

Cheers

Hi Warfer69,

As you say, "how long is a piece of string" I did mean if you were in a remote area that has little or no traffic for very long periods. If you do not have telephone reception and the situation in front of you is beyond your ability to deal with eg. a serious roll over 4wd accident with several casualties. It may be a long slow drive to the nearest station or town, do you leave your 'patients' unattended and go for help ? No, activate your beacon and look after the patients, set up shelter and treat as best you can. The emergency signal will be acted on and the rescue centre will get in touch with who ever looks after emergencies in that locality. With their local knowledge they will then know who is closest to the scene and how to manage the emergency from then on. There may even be a station and airstrip close by that you don't know about but the 'local' emergency will and they may be able to contact them and get some one to your location a lot quicker then if you set out looking for help yourself. If you need to activate your beacon then look for a place that can 'see' a lot of sky. After activation DO NOT leave the beacon sitting against the side of a large rock, under a tree canopy, along side of a vehicle or building, it's signal may be shielded by the obstruction.

KK

warfer69

Okay, How long is a piece of string? :), a mix of scenarios.

If you activate a 406 Beacon, if it is within coverage of the Geo (stationary satellites) it should arrive at the RCC within approx 10 minutes

If it is registered, the owners details are also displayed at the same time. If it has a GPS in it, the position will also be provided. So a response can be commenced, be it a telephone call to the owner, contacts or asking something to go to that position and investigate

If there is no GPS position is passed, have to wait till an orbiting satellite passes and then downloads the two possible positions, and then a second one to reduce those positions to one real one. that can take many hours.

But, as mentioned above, if your contacts know roughly where you are the response is much quicker.

Example was two divers set off their beacon, it was detected by a stationary satellite, but with no position. Rang the owners contact who said they were diving on a xxx reef off Ceduna. An aircraft and boat were tasked and on the way before the first orbiting satellite passed over, and they were rescued before the second satellite pass.

If there are two positions, normally aircraft are asked to monitor 121.5 in each area, so the right one can be determined quicker if aircraft start hearing it.

So as long as the beacon is deployed properly (not switched on inside an area that will shield or partially obscure it) and it is within the footprint of a satellite, the awareness that there is a problem can be quite quick. When will someone turn up to help you is then dependent on where you are and what is available to assist

Hope that helps

Thanks Kiwi Kia and Arounwego for the detailed answer,Was not aware that's it was so quick...
But then again it looks like we'll all get an Australian Spy Plane on the job if we happen to go missing so it should be quicker (ok we are not all mp's so there is a bit of sarcasm)

Right on Kurd, A lot of people in this world would not even get a mail delivery if everyone stayed home when it snowed. Unfortunately a lot of people who know nothing about being outdoors in a cold climate are making huge assumptions about man's ability to look after themselves in those conditions.

Perhaps all European, North American, Canadian and NZ (high country) farmers should be made to go out and get themselves a 'Spot' beacon and carry it at all times during the winter. Working outdoors in alpine terrain when it's snowing with no visibility, a day pack and a couple of dogs is common everyday work for high country farmers and other 'experienced' people.

KK

Interesting Kurd, the special aircraft came to his rescue. Would this aircraft be made available to all us common people? I'm only asking? LOL..

Well, TerraFirma, I notice that late this morning the Premier, Mr Brumby stated that all available opportunities and resources wold be made available for anyone lost anywhere in the Victoria. One wonders though if the AFP would have made the offer of their new spy plane if it was just an ordinary bloke in trouble.

Yes, KK, those high country farmers are tough blokes working in those conditions every day through winter. They probably think blokes like us with our snow shoes/skis and colour co-ordinated clothing are just a bunch of nancy boys!

Well Well Well , read the whole story, Mr Grove says Mr Holding should off been carrying an EPIRB..! Well I'll be, my point exactly.

However, Mr Grove said there was a lesson for hikers in the minister's experience: hikers should carry EPIRB emergency beacons. ''If he had have had an EPIRB, and they are probably a $550 to $600 item, he would have been retrieved on Sunday afternoon,'' he said.

This was taken from the whole story, which included info on the Spy Plane.

The aircraft that found state Water Minister Tim Holding in the Victorian alps on Monday night was fitted with secret experimental night surveillance equipment being developed for the Australian Federal Police.

Advanced thermal imaging technology, designed to track fugitives by detecting body heat, is believed to have helped locate Mr Holding on the slopes of Mount Feathertop and hasten his dramatic rescue yesterday, ending a two-day ordeal.

Mr Holding, 37, is expected to leave hospital this morning and hold a press conference later today.
His spokesman, Luke Enright, said he was in reasonable health and spent the night in The Alfred "just for observation".


Amid the relief at Mr Holding's rescue, police and the State Government went to extraordinary lengths yesterday to withhold information about the plane that found him.

A Government spokesman said questions about the plane should be directed to the Victoria Police, adding: ''Decisions on the use of emergency resources are operational decisions for emergency agencies.''

The Victoria Police, after referring to ''an AFP plane'' in a media release earlier in the day, later withdrew the statement and amended it to remove all references to the AFP.

''For security reasons police will not confirm whose plane it is,'' spokeswoman Nicole McKechnie said. ''It was offered to us and we accepted that offer.''

The AFP, meanwhile, denied that it had any planes.

But last night The Age learnt that the plane that pinpointed Mr Holding on Monday was carrying surveillance technology secretly developed for the AFP, principally to track terrorists.

It also emerged that Mr Holding had been carrying a headlamp given to him for his birthday recently by his partner, Sunday Herald Sun journalist Ellen Whinnett, and that the light may have been detected by aerial searchers.

Deputy Commissioner Kieran Walsh confirmed that information received from a plane on Monday night had given police confidence that the minister would be found yesterday morning.

''We did have some information that came to us overnight that we had been working on this morning and we had search teams heading into the location,'' Mr Walsh said.

Mr Holding was finally spotted just before 10am yesterday by news helicopters, waving a reflective thermal blanket.

An experienced hiker, Mr Holding still had water but had run out of food and was said to be saturated and dehydrated.

He told rescuers he had become disoriented after falling about 100 metres down one of Feathertop's icy slopes.

After being winched to safety by a police helicopter, Mr Holding was taken to the nearby town of Bright, where he was reunited with his parents, Bruce and Carol, and Ms Whinnett.

The 37-year-old minister began his hike up Victoria's second highest peak on Saturday afternoon, reaching Federation Hut about 200 metres below the summit before dark. He set out alone in bad weather on Sunday morning for the final ascent.

The alarm was raised on Sunday night after he failed to return home or to contact Ms Whinnett.

Mr Holding said yesterday he was ''chilly'' but not worried during his ordeal. He was found about 2.6 kilometres from where he was last seen, near the 1922-metre summit, police said.

Asked what he would be doing last night, Mr Holding said: ''I certainly won't be going hiking, that's for sure.''

Later, he released a statement saying: "I'm very relieved to be back safely and I'm extremely grateful to everyone who helped out with the search and rescue effort."

Ms Whinnett said she began worrying about Mr Holding on Sunday. ''I was twitchy about it all day on Sunday because he hadn't contacted me at all, and that was unusual.

''I was very glad to see him get off the helicopter. He's really cold, he's got a few scratches and bruises, he's disorientated but he's fine.'' She said he had plenty of water but had not eaten much in the last day. ''He's had a biscuit at some point,'' Ms Whinnett said.

Bruce and Carol Holding said it was difficult to describe their intense worry for their son and they were relieved to have him home. ''It was a trying two days, a bit sleepless,'' Mr Holding said.

Mrs Holding said: ''We're just ecstatic that he's back, and he's safe and he seems to be OK.''

About 80 searchers, including police, SES, army and highly trained alpine bushwalking volunteers, camped on the mountain on Monday night.

Despite the secrecy over the plane, the Government and the police insisted Mr Holding had been treated no differently to any other lost hiker. Mr Walsh said of the search team: ''They're not here just because it's Tim Holding, a minister. They're here because somebody was missing in the bush and needed their assistance.''

Premier John Brumby said his minister had received ''the same standard of care, the same standard of search'' as anyone else in the same situation would have received.

Mr Holding told paramedics he had never thought he was in danger and believed he would be rescued. ''He is well aware of the amount of effort that went into his safe return and wanted me to express that to the public and the services involved,'' said paramedic Steve Grove.

''His condition is very well. He was well-prepared, his temperature was quite good considering he has been out there for a couple of days.''

However, Mr Grove said there was a lesson for hikers in the minister's experience: hikers should carry EPIRB emergency beacons. ''If he had have had an EPIRB, and they are probably a $550 to $600 item, he would have been retrieved on Sunday afternoon,'' he said.

Mr Brumby said he was delighted to receive news of the rescue. He admitted his anxiety had risen after Mr Holding did not walk out on Monday.

''These things are hard … you expect if someone is out there they'll get through one night and then after one night it gets harder and harder,'' he said.

''To say that we are elated, to say that we are delighted, to say that we are very relieved would be an understatement.''

He would not be drawn on whether Mr Holding should have attempted the walk alone. ''I don't think you can make judgments about this yet … there are plenty of people who do that walk,'' Mr Brumby said.

Did you really have to quote the whole article in the thread?

No didn't realise it was that long, thats why I posted a link further down. Sorry Tim, last thing I would want to do was annoy you..!

Hahahahahahaha.
Just normal online etiquette ;)

If I recall correctly when you started this thread it was all about the guy being an idiot for not carrying a GPS. Now you change your mind and say he should have had an EPIRB - I hope that you now know the difference and their limitations.

KK

KK, I stand by my original call, a GPS in my opinion could have helped him make his own way down, this stands to reason as he was lost. He was also mobile. An EPIRB would have been another option because a GPS is useless if you are injured. Any way you want to cut it KK I was pretty close to the mark.

Clear - as - mud.

To give the quote some context, Mr Grove is a paramedic.

And the context being Tim..? Let me see, he is a Paramedic and doesn't know what the hell he is talking about? I'm not afraid to say it for you... LOL..

Hey Tim question for you as you seem an expert on EPIRB's , can you replace the battery your self in the newer digital models, or do you have to take it back to the dealer/agent/bla bla blah..?

Why do you assume a negative connotation?
I merely highlighted his professional role.
He could have been the bloke in the local pub, or the head of AMSA for all we know.
You make your own call about his qualification to speak on the subject.

Now Now Tim, not true was merely throwing a bit of humour up for grabs, to some people the term "LOL" means don't take me seriously. Something I suggest you take on board with some of your replies to poor old Mike. LOL..!

Fair call :)

To answer your question - no.

Always back to base for EPIRBS and PLBs. Due to the higher legal and liability implications, coupled with Murphy's law, I can appreciate this.

SPOTs have user-replaceable lithium AAs.

Thanks Tim, one more question, what is the difference between a personal PLB with GPS (I have the GME MT410G 406 MHZ PLB with GPS) and EPIRB such as the GME MT403G 406 MHz EPIRB with GPS Water & Manual Activation.

I'm not quite up to scratch on the catergorisation such as personal PLB and EPIRB, the real world differences. As far as I can see the PLB was designed for personal use and needs to be held upright and works for 24 hours vs EPIRB which floats by itself not necessarily upright and works for 48 hours?

TF,
You've hit the nail perfectly on the head. This is the semantic difference, so grab a coffee...

EPIRBs are usually affixed; must float (upright) and must transmit continuously for at least 48 hours; may have a hydrostatic release (usually with auto-activation); may have a GPS function; may be automatic or manual deployment.
These are designed for ocean-going ships or commercial aircraft, hence length of xmission to allow for distance. Legislation and their specs reflects this. They're also often rather too bulky to consider for carrying on your person.

PLBs are usually worn on the person; must transmit continuously for 24 hours; no automatic function required; may have a GPS; manual deployment. They are easily portable and are designed for inshore and non-extreme land use.

Note EPIRBS and PLBs are primarily designed for marine and aviation use, where view of the sky is only obscured by cloud.

BTW - It is impossible to get an EPIRB accuracy greater than 124m in any direction. No matter how awesome the chip in your EPIRB down to 1cm accuracy, the COSPAR system only recognises co-ordinates at 124m resolution. At sea this is more than enough. In the bush, it can still make for a long, albeit focused, search.

Either an EPIRB or PLB will be vastly improved by a GPS, but as we all know - the GPS constellation varies hour by hour and neither the EPIRB transmitter nor the GPS like tree canopy, canyons and other obstuctions.

SPOT is well covered elsewhere. It's biggest advantage is that it isn't all-or-nothing. This makes it more appropriate for land or recreational use to my mind.

In the grand scale of rescues, Feathertop was a minor, almost trivial event. That he was found without deployment of an emergency device indicates this. He advised people where he was going and checked in when he arrived at the peak. It is my belief that it is very wise to carry an PLB or SPOT, but in this case it wouldn't have played out much differently without a SPOT's accuracy.

Thanks Tim, very informative, I think your conclusion somes it up perfectly. Interesting to note some places are hiring out PLB's as a little as $5 per day , these have the integrated GPS and strobe function.

Yeah - even better as little as nothing in some area (ie Blue Mtns) - as long as you bring it back to NPWS. ;)

Sadly not enough awareness is made of the service until someone doesn't know about it and gets lost.

Tim
I am going to disagree with you slightly. :)

Both Spot and PLBs/EPIRBS have an alerting function, "hey I'm in trouble, its me and im in this general location" For me an advantage of an epirb is that it is transmitting on two frequencies, which can be homed by aircraft or ground teams. That is of benefit particularly in land environments.

They both have the advantage, and possibly even in this case, were you can alert others that you are trouble EARLY.

Regarding accuracy, getting down to 5 decimal points (or minutes) in lat/long may be advantageous, but at the end of the day once it gets passed through systems and plotted on maps/ or entered into others GPS units, you will still get a pool of errors anyway. Besides the difference of a 1 metre GPS postion in some areas can be whether or not you are on top of a cliff or a few hundred feet below it. So even such a small position error can translate to a larger area.
I guess that is why Geocatching is still challenging..

Doesn't matter whether you have a gPS/epirb/spot or satellite phone, if you are in hilly terrain there is always a chance that any system will have difficulty getting a direct path to a satellite. So for me an epirb that be detected from other aspects by orbiting satelites or aircraft has advantages.

On a really minor correction :) aircraft carry ELTs or PLBs (depending upon their use) EPIRBS are the marine ones

That's why all 406 EPIRBs also have a continuous 121.5 transmitter - so that ANY aircraft can home in on the signal, once they get in radio range.

Aroundwego,

Love the chat.

You're correct. I avoided ELTs to save further confusion. They are basically an EPIRB with a g-sensor, as you likely know.

and the future is brighter: MEOSAR
Link

I am still a big fan of Satellite Phones though

Oh no, not MEOSAR.

That's the one that will tell our cars how fast we can go, how much to charge us and bill us in real time. Not to mention the implanted chips we'll have by then telling The Man where we are ;)

This quote from it is so prophetic -
"An EPIRB may be useful in some circumstances of course. Solo walkers are receptive to the idea, and this may be a good idea. "

This statement damages his credibility -
"There are very few areas in Australia which are so far from a road that you can't 'get out' within a day or so - assuming a moderately intelligent choice of direction."

"Why are so many people against common sense?"
Maybe some people have an easy going positive attitude & aren't paranoid they're going to fail or maybe they dont like wrapping themseves up in cottonwool prefering to get on with the job.
Everyone is comfortable with a different level of risk & thankfully there is no line to say we are right or wrong or we'd end up like my cousin who wasn't allowed to touch grass for the first 2 years of his life for fear of catching some disease :-)) It would be a very boring life with no risk at all.
Cheers Craig................

I don't think it is a positive attitude or not being paranoid, I think some people don't think or they have that attitude of some people who think it's a crock and they don't need it.

If I didn't have a positive attitude, I was paranoid and if I didn't take risks I would not be where I am today....The difference is I think about my actions and I asses the risk and most of my decisions are calculated.

Part of accessing a risk is to lower the impact or likelihood of it happening and that is not being paranoid or having a negative attitude.

It's being sensible.




If the Australian Federal Police decided not to test there nightvision, he may of still of been out there and dead.

Therein lines the issue, and why this thread will continue on with no general agreement....

Everyone's assessment of risk will be different, and rightly so, because more than likely we will all have varying levels of skills and ability.

I'd have no problem taking a location device, if I considered it necessary. If I don't, I won't. Nothing irresponsible about that.

But here is the litmus test.....ask the forum would they agree to a law that required all four-wheel drive vehicles entering remote areas be fitted with a GPS Location device along the lines of the ones suggested in this thread. Possibly an expense in the order of $500/600.

Mate, you'd need to turn the volume down on your computer....

I always find the online polls an accurate reflection of the opinion of people who take online polls... :)

You describe SPOTs functions, outlined waaaaaaaay up above, to a tee!

I should probably point out I don't work for SPOT

Actually...he doesn't see not taking an EPIRB as a mistake simply that he will take one next time.....If you listen to the full interview you will understand this person was well prepared, and took decisions before and throughout his trip that ensured a good chance of survival.

Quoting interview...

There has been criticism of the cost associated with rescuing Mr Holding and his decision to hike alone.

The 37-year-old says next time he goes hiking he will make sure he takes an emergency locator beacon.

"I've never hiked with an EPIRB before and I've been to places that are far more remote and rugged than where I was at Feathertop but - and I have to say I bet if we interviewed 100 hikers going up there in six months' time we would probably find very few EPIRBs with them - but I think given what I've put my family through and Victorians through over the last few days when I hike in the future I'll have an EPIRB with me," he said.

Mr Holding said he often hikes alone and his example should not discourage other people from doing so.

"I think it would be very disappointing if the message that goes forward from this is that you shouldn't hike alone," he said.

"I often encounter other people who are hiking alone. We live in an age where it's good to get away and clear your head and just be away from things, that's the beauty of this part of Victoria."

I agree with you

Life is an adventure, he wasn't a complete fool, he managed to keep himself warm and alive till someone found him. He told someone were he was going, but due to an accident he ended up off track. Yep it took resources to locate him, which incorporates risk - but in all reality people take bigger chances and risk others everyday which are far worse (which is why Redlight cameras make so much money)

Love it :-))

But it's not Friday !

KK