Driving Mud Channels - is there a better way ?

Submitted: Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 14:47
ThreadID: 74496 Views:5099 Replies:12 FollowUps:30
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Hi Guys

Exploring wether its possible to have an improved driving technique to aviod
scrapping the side of the car in deep mud channels.

3 times recently we have found ourselves needing to drive thru channels as driving on top of ruts is to slippery or dangerous to hold a steady line.

The ruts of concern are usually characterized as having muddy base with vertical sides and also tend to have a slight slope such that the car will drift to one side with the bodywork in danger of scrapping itself.

Sometimes they are made worse by tree roots and rocks.

The technique I tend to use is simply to drive straight thru as slowly as possible , in effect excepting that its going to hurt and minimze damage with slow speed.

But is there an improved technique ?

I have no answer , but I think there are 3 possible approaches

1/ Drive straight thru slowly as possible and accept the inevitable.

2/ Lower the tyre pressures well below what is required hopping that
a large side wall bulge will keep the car further away from the embankment.

3/ Enguage the front locker diff and drive with the steering about 1/2 turn
towards the embankment.
The idea here is that the wheel will protrude outside the bodyline and the front tyre will more or less harmlessly contact the bank.
The natural action of a locked axle would then tend to cause a rotation force
that might keep the rear end away from the bank as well.


The problem is photo'ed below

Image 109 Car enters deep ruts correctly and is on line.
Image Could Not Be Found


Image 110 Car has slipped into the ruts
Image Could Not Be Found



Image 111 Car is scrapping the wall now.
Image Could Not Be Found


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Reply By: Wayne (NSW) - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 14:58

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 14:58
Robin,

There is another way.

If you don't have to drive through the bog, don't do it.

The impression that I have gotten from you post is that you will go and find a wet/ boggy section of a track and for some reason just drive through it for the sake of driving through mud and cutting up a track.

Wayne
AnswerID: 395591

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 15:26

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 15:26
He did say Wayne that he found himself needing to drive thru the channels, It looks like many of the tracks around the Vic medium High country where these types of ruts are inevitable.

I agree with you, if you dont need to then dont, seems there is a need here.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 16:06

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 16:06
Hi Guys

How much of a need I guess it argueable , it was just a track and I could have been home watching TV , but I like a challenge and would have to admit I was going to try it either way.
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 22:24

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 22:24
I'm a bit like Wayne (yeh, I know, THAT is a scary thought...hahaha).

But my first reaction was : Why did you find yourself in that situation?

It is pretty clear from the photos that Robin may not have been the first person to drive that track when it has been wet, either on this occasion or in the past. Okay, so I'm being a bit flippant.....of course it's been flogged to death by yobbo's who "love a challenge". If you did that sort of thing in central Australia (and got caught by the locals who MUST use the roads), they'd probably string you up by your go-nads.

I think they have a pretty sound philosophy out that way..... If it rains they stay put. If they're out checking fences or tanks, that's where they stay until the tracks dry out enough to be able to get back to the homestead without carving semi-permanent railway lines into the mud (which later sets as hard as concrete until the next rain).

I fail to see the logic of going out and looking for trouble....but there certainly seems to be a goodly number of folk who just enjoy tearing up the tracks (and their own rigs, about which I have no concern whatsoever).

So, back to my question: WHY???

Roachie
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 22:30

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 22:30
Sorry, hit "Submit" before I finished.....

If, by chance, you were camping....then it rained....and you would have preferred to do as I suggested above (IE: stay put at camp until the tracks dried out)......but an emergency arose (say somebody in your party had a heart attack and needed to be taken to hospital for example).....meaning you HAD to drive the tracks.....then you'd probably not be too worried if your rig got a scratch or 2, so long as you got the person to the "haus-sick".

If you did have some time to be able to do something other than just plough through .....then why no try to do a bit of road building with branches, rocks etc to raise the effective level of the wheel ruts, such that your body work won't get scratched?
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 13:42

Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 13:42
Some people like wrecking the environment and some enjoy the environment.

And some people wounder why the close tracks and don't upgrade them.
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 13:47

Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 13:47
A track is a track, it only becomes wrecking the environment when one ventures off that track and make your own. One reason may be that the current track is impassable, but another may be a lazy detour around a tree that could be moved off the track, there are lots of others reasons.

The tracks there to be driven on, Robin, I think, Is asking how to drive the track without damage to his vehicle or himself or the track, 37" tyres may help
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Reply By: Roughasguts - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 15:00

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 15:00
Hmmm Interesting I have never done much mud work in ruts, always been in the drought conditions.

Anyway I see your point I was thinking You probably have side steps and they would take a bit of the scrape. But if you made up a removable bracket (slot and pin) and put some boat rollers on the side steps! then that should keep the body work further away from the ditch!

Might be worth a try if the side steps are substantial enough for the side force.

Cheers.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 21:38

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 21:38
Yeah , see what you mean but I threw away my side steps the day I brought the car.
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 22:33

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 22:33
The factory alloy sidesteps are made of the same alfoil that you wrap up your left over pizza in. They bend as soon as they even SEE an obstacle....
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Follow Up By: Member - Axle - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 23:49

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 23:49
OI!!!, This is Nissan side steps of course!...:)))))).


Cheers Axle.
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Reply By: HGMonaro - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 15:08

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 15:08
maybe some outriggers attached to your bullbar to keep the nose heading the right direction!
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 21:37

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 21:37
Might work - but I don't have a Bullbar HG
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Reply By: Dasher Des - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 15:14

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 15:14
G'day Robin,
Looking at the photo's, and not suggesting that all ruts are created this way, but by lowering your tyre pressures to get better traction and driving with one set of wheels on the high side and the other wheels in the rut, you may be able to prevent the vehicle from taking that sideways slip that tends to ding the panels.I know it won't always work but from those set of photo's it may have been an option at that time.
merry xmas
Des
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 16:56

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 16:56
Hi Dasher & merry Xmas also.

Another car tried the highsdie unsucessfully , looking at this photo you can see how it left its side slip marks in the mud.

Difficult choice as the whack if it occurs usually is a dent !





Image Could Not Be Found
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Reply By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 15:29

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 15:29
G'day Robin,

I won't ask my neighbour who knows nothing about mud driving as can be seen from this piccie.

Image Could Not Be Found

Kind regards
AnswerID: 395596

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 21:43

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 21:43
Looks like we should send him in first to create the ruts for the rest of us to play in Beatit
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Reply By: Willem - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 15:29

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 15:29
Robin

Fit 315's or bigger.....:-)


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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 21:42

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 21:42
Now that actually did work Willem , well sort of , a car with us had these big wide offset 315 35's and they stuck out 50mm past the bodyline and no way could the panels hit the mud banks , but my car is just a tourer and I need to keep it legal.
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Follow Up By: baldman - Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 00:20

Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 00:20
Have a bigger offset on my rims as well, have fitted the guards with rubber flares so the tyres still theoretically remain within the body line.

In ruts as discussed above, my rims take a pounding but they save my panels.
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Reply By: vk1dx - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 15:34

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 15:34
We had a presentation of snow chians at the last club meeting from our erstwhile lead trainer.

Snow chains for mud. Get out of it!!! Don't switch off yet.

At a club meeting we had a presentation on snow chains. There are basically two types - ladder and diamond. One was the typical square ladder type that can let you slip sideways. However the others were basically a diamond pattern which were designed to give some protection against sideways slipping and help with steering.

I would love to try them along the ridge with your right hand wheel to the right and the left hand wheel on the ridge currently where your diff if sitting.

We will be getting two sets (chains for 4 wheels). Why four chains?? One set for the front wheels to retain steering and some for pushing. They will mainly be for any swamp and mud we come across and mainly the Vic High country wet and soggy clay based tracks. A trip was called off because we did not have some. Not again.

One possible link of information

An older thread on EO.

Try searching Google with "diamond snow chains".

Hope this helps staying out of the big channels. Even in the dry.Well why not??

Phil
AnswerID: 395599

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 16:03

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 16:03
Hi Phil

I never leave home without snow chains (1 set diamond) , two sets may do it , worth a try , but 1 set I don't think would as it might allow a set of wheels to move further left in this case but I feel that would make the back slip further into bank.

Constructive suggestion though !
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Follow Up By: Wayne (NSW) - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 16:19

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 16:19
Phil,

Have you seen what SNOW chains do to a muddy track.

If you think that you have to use SNOW chains to get through have another think about how you can avoid the boggy section all together.

Using SNOW chains will only dig up the track.

There will be some who will say that SNOW chains will not cause any damage to a track. How wrong they are.

Wayne
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Follow Up By: ob - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 16:52

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 16:52
Yep, got to agree, if the track is that bad you need snow chains as opposed to using snow chains for what they are intended I would respectfully suggest you find another way around as all you are doing is tearing up a track even more and then wondering why some authority has closed that track.

Cheers
ob
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 16:58

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 16:58
Interesting , while snow chains have the potential to do damage , they also have the potential to do less.

So much so , that some places will not let you through unless using them.
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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 16:59

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 16:59
Hi Robin

The chains presentation certainly was worth it. But take it easy they (as Wayne sadi) will rip the hell out of the bush if you over do it and spin them. We used them in the 50's up on the Bogong High Plains. I never even thought about them for todays treks.Well I was only 5. But I remember freezing when putting them on Dads old Armstrong Sidley.

Wayne

I hate destroying the bush but the man asked how to do something. I expect that he would only be asking to make sure that next time he gets in a pickle he can find a way safely through.

Have a look at the ruts that cars without chains did.

With chains and sensible gear and throttle he would be able to just drive along the ridges and through without even spinning his wheels.

Of course if you want to hit the accelerator and power through with chains on and throw mud over all the spectators . . . . .

Responsible driving and car control will always get you further and with less damage.

Phil
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 22:41

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 22:41
GREAT!!!! Now we've got another hero who is going to get himself fitted out with chains on all 4 corners and willingly/knowingly go into country where he knows he's going to need to fit the chains because the track is impassable without the chains....sort of ironic isn't it!!!

Geez, I must be getting too bloody old....but I just don't get it; sorry, but I just don't get it!!! Why do you feel the need to go out and purposely rip-up tracks. It gives the do-gooders and greenies the ammo they need to close the bloody tracks for all time!!!!

Please don't use chains in mud unless it's on your own private property (or private property of someone else from whom you have gained permission to rip their property up!!!!).

Please.
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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 23:21

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 23:21
Why the personal attack Roachie. I thought you had more sense.

I used the words "responsible driving" mate! Whoops - stike the word "mate". I suggest you read what I said again. All of it this time. There is a skill to using them and if used correctly they do not damage the environment. Beats surging ahead into mud with lockers and big muddies just ripping up the road and causing big ruts like that in the photo. Personally I think anyone who wants to dig up the roads with high speed and lots on revs charging into mud is a mug.

I stressed the need for responsible use of the throttle and gears. No need to speed. I find this quite frustrating. Here am I answering a query for a particular situatioin and someone accuses me of being a cowboy and ripping up the bush.

Why is it that people cannot read and comprehend plain english. Read it again.

Uncalled for.



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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 00:13

Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 00:13
G'day Phil,

I was not aiming my comments as a personal attack..... I don't even know you.

The words that I am referring to from your original response: "They will mainly be for any swamp and mud we come across and mainly the Vic High country wet and soggy clay based tracks. A trip was called off because we did not have some. Not again. "

I will not recile from my forthrightness...sorry if I'm upsetting you mate.

The quoted words I have cut and pasted from your original reponse demonstrate (to me) that you are willing to go out onto muddy tracks and purposely drive those tracks when any sensible person would stay at home and watch the idiot box until the tracks had a chance to dry out. The fact that you state you don't wish to have to have another trip called off because of the mud, makes me think that your heart isn't quite in the right place on this issue mate.

Oh, and with regard to the word "mate", you may have noticed I still refer to you as "mate". I'm sorry if you can't bring yourself to continue to think of me as a mate. Mates are the blokes who stand by you, even when they know/think you are wrong. So, yes, in my mind you are still a mate.

We may just have to agree to disagree on this point I guess. I don't know why I'm too worried anyway....I live in SA and have no intention of visiting the VHC in the near future, so why should it worry me if the tracks are all cut-up or if the do-gooders/greenies lock them up for ever.... it'd just be a shame IMHO.
Cheers mate
Roachie

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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 07:25

Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 07:25
Chains are a great tool to get you further Roachie , just like shovel, lockers, mud tyres and of course a Nissan Patrol.

Wether or not they are used correctly is like any other tool.

As I said earlier, some properties mandate them because they cause less damage.

As to why go for a drive in the forrest , well it is specifically to see if you can make it thru , thats it , a challenge.

The issue of nett affect on the bush is more complex , and I'm off there right now to a place where I grow trees and a small forrest that never existed 20 years ago.

Got the call to get in the car Bye for now !

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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 08:00

Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 08:00
Roachie

Mate (yes the word is appropriate) we both got each other wrong. Didn't we. Thats the problem with the written word. It is very hard to say all sides in just a few words. I am happy that the moderators did not take offence to the posts and allowed us to clear this up.

I think in retrospect that we do not disagree at all.

Just a couple of quotes from the second post:
1. "But take it easy they (as Wayne sadi) will rip the hell out of the bush if you over do it and spin them",
2. "sensible gear and throttle ",
3. "Responsible driving"

Surely this shows that we have the same aim and ideals. I wanted to show them how to get out of certain situation that they should not have gotten into in the first oplace with minimal impact on the environment. I don't thing pushing through the ruts without any assistance would do any good. I believe that chains would be a good choice. Not two but 4. Two would only rip it up. Four would be a breeze.

Hell I just had my first dose of what I ssaid last night. You can stick these tablets. At least I can do it at home.

Cheers and please we are not irresponsible hoonish rev-em-up track thrashing drivers. Its too nice a place to muck up.

Okay??? Please respond. I need to know you understand where we am coming from. You can send me an email if you wish to vk1dx@bigpond.net.au. We are getting OT a bit here.

Phil


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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 09:16

Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 09:16
G'day Phil,
Thanks for the additional notes.
I must make an admission (somewhat sheepishly)....when I typed-out my initial response, it was after having only read your Reply to Robin.... I should have read the other Follow-ups before hitting the damn keyboard myself.

I do now realise that you (and probably Robin too) are not hell-bent on destroying the environment. I also realise there is a fine line between wanting to get out into the forests when they are at their best (ie: after some refreshing rain; they are sparkling at these times), and avoiding going there when the tracks are at their most vulnerable (ie: also after rain).

I said at one point in one of my earlier responses on this thread, that I must be getting too old. At 54 I just try to avoid situations where I may become stuck or cause damage to self, others, vehicles or the environment. I really would prefer to stay home and wait for the tracks to dry out (boring ol' phart that I am!! haha).

Anyway, I do hope you blokes have a great Chrissie and enjoy the great outdoors at any opportunity you can. FWIW we (me and 3 sons) are heading over to NSW to spend a week or so at Burrinjuck Dam while my wife visits her parents at Ulladulla.

Cheers mate

Roachie

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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 09:28

Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 09:28
Here is abloke who knows whats wonderful.

Its safe don't worry: Sachmo knows.

Merry Christmas
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Reply By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 16:52

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 16:52
Maybe the patrol is too wide?
Get a narrower car like a pajero so you can put two wheels in the ruts and two on the ridge, or at least keep the side away from the wall? :o)
AnswerID: 395613

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 17:02

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 17:02
Sounds ok John , but the narrow track width means you can't drive in average width ruts and so one wheel ends up on the side of a rut causing a steeper angle which in turn generates more side thrust.

In this example we had two which I had to drag out.
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Follow Up By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 22:05

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 22:05
good point
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Reply By: Member - MUZBRY(Vic) - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 17:23

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 17:23
Gday Robin
Best ask Santa for another set of chains.
I know a bloke that will fit them in the wet

Muzbry
Great place to be Mt Blue Rag 27/12/2012

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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 21:40

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 21:40
Santa's pretty overloaded at our place Muz , so I reckon he might nick the chains to help out his reindeer.
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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 23:40

Friday, Dec 18, 2009 at 23:40
Hey Robin I think I hit a sore point up a bit hey!

Just don't be surprised about the price. I will have to wait for a while to get ours. Hopefully before our Cape York trip. We want to go on the Starkie Track and without a winch may need a bit of extra traction every now and then. Cannot afford a winch so we will be looking for alternative tracks and use them if there are any. Bit worried about the Desert Creek crossing and cannot find any details about it.

I thought it was the navigators job to fir them. Ha Oh year. Just try it she says.

Have a good wekend guys. I start my chemo after brekky tomorrow. Shudder horror.

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Reply By: Mad Cowz (VIC) - Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 09:04

Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 09:04
Now for a less helpful reply!!!
Go to the pyrenees, not much mud there, I find rocks more predictable,
Or:
buy a JCB fastrac. they have a road speed of about 70 and run 28s I think, rim size that is!!!



Actually I asked Bonz if I could enter one in in the OBC but he said it would have trouble at the scrutineering stage

MadCowz
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AnswerID: 395674

Reply By: howie - Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 11:49

Saturday, Dec 19, 2009 at 11:49
not much you can do.
if you try and drive on the top of the ruts, the vehicle usually slips into the rut eventually.
the short answer is #1
if you are with a club, we used to pre-trip things if possible, and rate different trips from A to D, depending on difficulty.
A - may involve winching, very difficult terrain. ( ie expect some damage)
but even the best prepared and apparently easy trip can get hairy in short bursts, so the other answer is - if you want to keep your vehicle in showroom condition, stay at home.
AnswerID: 395683

Reply By: stretchlizard - Tuesday, Dec 22, 2009 at 17:59

Tuesday, Dec 22, 2009 at 17:59
Robin

Regarding the suggestion number 2: Lower the tyre pressures well below what is required hoping that a large side wall bulge will keep the car further away from the embankment.

Although this seems like a good idea in practice it is not.

What happens is that the reduced tyre pressure can allow small debris (sticks, bark, stones etc) to get lodged between the bead of the tyre and the rim as the tyre flexes. They then work their way further in as the tyre continues to flex until you get a leak.

I also thought it was a good idea until the tyre leaked. Could hear the leak when stopped and also could see the very small stick (twig) causing the problem. Not a bad leak but enough to require pumping up before I got somewhere suitable to change it.

Stretchlizard
AnswerID: 396087

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