The Future of Remote Area travel

Submitted: Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 14:13
ThreadID: 74963 Views:5342 Replies:20 FollowUps:54
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I’ve been asked to write a piece on the future of travelling in remote areas and it's really set me thinking. There seems to be a popular conception that it’s getting harder to get away from it all because there are so many now who are doing just that – getting away from it all and cluttering up what used to be the special remote places.

From recent experience on the Canning there are certainly a lot of people who don’t deserve to be out there. They would gain just as little by burning their fuel on the bitumen, leaving the remote places for those who appreciate them. Donuts on the salt pans of Lake Disappointment – what mindless clowns.

Another issue is the baby boomer bulge which will spill out into retirement in the next few years and head off in the 4WD to go round the island.

On the other hand, will fuel prices keep lots of people at home? Is the increasing prevalence of restrictive permits a serious disincentive to remote travel?

What are your thoughts about the future of ExplorOz type travel?

John
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Reply By: Member - Royce- Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 14:22

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 14:22
Since our first 'trip around' in the late 80s there is noticeably less places to roadside camp... fences everywhere.

Most remote tracks seem to have someone pass every hour or two.

I think maybe permits are need more rather than less, just to police the use of many areas and maybe start to keep some people out?
At the rist of appearing racist, there are vast tracts of Australia that are very remote that only people of one ethnic group are allowed to freely access.

I am sure that there are too many people in this country already. Sure, there are more people to give me more income and make the economy boom....

but rather than Global Warming being a symptom to focus on, maybe population policy should be the global threat to work on?
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Follow Up By: Member - Neville & Sally C (VI - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 17:10

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 17:10
Hi Royce, We did the correct thing and got the Permits for The Connie Sue, but an Ab.P.O.at the Warburton Roadhouse decided to show off to an audience & ask us to show him the Permit. Even though we had the Permit, we couldn't go where we wanted to.( Long story.) These Dogooders along with some angry, misguided people will be the ones to put in more restictions and it will be to the most scenic parts of remote travel in Oz. At present the Permits are free, I wouldn't be surprised to see a hefty charge put on them. in the future, look what's happened to Ayer's Rock! Permits don't stop the useless hoons though. We agree entirely with your views on world Population and climate change. Take care. Safe travells. Bye Sally.
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 21:27

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 21:27
Hi Sally

Not all are free.

Extract from permits section here in ExOz:
Kalumburu
To visit Kalumburu you will need to gain two Permits. The first is available via the Aboriginal Lands Trust in Perth. This can be done on-line, and is free. (See above). This Permit however, only gives you permission to enter the Kalumburu Reserve. Once you get to the Kalumburu Community you will also need to gain a Kalumburu Recreation Entry Permit. These can be obtained, at a cost of $40 per vehicle, from the Kalumburu Aboriginal Corporation Office, (see below), or the Uraro Community Store. Alternatively, you can apply at the Kununurra Tourist Bureau on your way out to Kalumburu. If you do apply at the Tourist Bureau you will still need to call in to the Kalumburu Aboriginal Corporation Office to pick up your windscreen sticker. You can also apply direct by fax to the Kalumburu Aboriginal Corporation. A cheque for $40 made out to the same body will also need to be sent. Allow at least a month for the permit to be returned to you.

I think we have paid in other places too, but so far the transit on the major routes (such as Great Central and Gary Junction are free - if you can get them in time in WA).

I thought I'd read that it was something like $100 or $200 to go to Surveyor Generals Corner - can anyone clarify that one?

Mh
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Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 22:37

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 22:37
MH

Surveyor-Generals Corner
Permits for Surveyor-General’s Corner are $100 per vehicle plus $20 per person, but you do get an escort/guide to take you out there and tell you a bit about the history of the Corner.

Permits


ngaanyatjarraku

Cheers

Richard
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 22:48

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 22:48
Thanks Richard

Mh
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Follow Up By: Member - Bucky - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 07:19

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 07:19
We did the Surveyor General's Corner in August 2009, and savored the moment, with Lance, our Local Guide..

Wingenella, was a nice community, it's all good ...
I thought the price was a bit steep ,,, but we are tourist, and guests there, so you pay accordingly.
Some of the history from Lance was great too ..

Cheers
Bucky


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Follow Up By: Member - Neville & Sally C (VI - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 08:34

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 08:34
Hi Mh, Great to hear from you . We haven't done those areas yet, too far to drive in four weeks holz. Yes, I believe that it will cost us that much to go to the Surveyer G' s corner so you're correct. I was thinking of last yr when I commented not next yr. I have a real Bee in my bonnet about what happened with the Permits last yr. at Warburton even though we'd done the correct thing.
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Follow Up By: Member - Timbo - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 14:15

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 14:15
I hope they gave you a tax invoice for that one Richard :-)
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Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 21:44

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 21:44
Sorry Timbo, I haven't been there, I was just answering MH question :)

"I thought I'd read that it was something like $100 or $200 to go to Surveyor Generals Corner - can anyone clarify that one?"

But I'm sure you will get one as with any other purchase..

Cheers

Richard
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 21:57

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 21:57
I'd be vagely interested to see if anyone got a Tax Invoice on request for this SG Corner fee. I have never received a receipt of any kind when purchasing diesel in Aboriginal communities where it was cash only, although i have not pushed for one. I did ask at Kintore and was told i could go to the store and get them to give me one (the fuel attendant's wife ran the store) - it wasn't worth the trouble so i didn't. I recall i could have paid for the fuel by card at the store, but it was easier to pay cash at the bowser. I put these down as cash purchases where a Tax Invoice isn't commonly available.

Mh
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Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 22:09

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 22:09
Mother

You're not claiming these trips as a business expense ... LOL

You will and should be able to obtain a Tax Invoice at any place of sale.. ;-)

Richard
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Saturday, Jan 09, 2010 at 00:18

Saturday, Jan 09, 2010 at 00:18
Hi Richard

As the vehicle is used for farm business and private use, i am very careful to keep full records of all costs and an explanation of how the costs were apportioned.

Mh
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Saturday, Jan 09, 2010 at 01:37

Saturday, Jan 09, 2010 at 01:37
Hi Sally

This thread has prompted me to write a letter to the WA Minister for Indigenous Affairs with our story, which i said at the time i would do on my return home. The State Department of Indigenous Affairs administer the permits.

It sounds like you have a story that should be told. If you would like to send your story to the Minister as another example of how the system is not working (an assumption on my part from what you have posted), email me and i will give you full contact details. I will send my letter by email.

Cheers

Mh
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Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Saturday, Jan 09, 2010 at 03:22

Saturday, Jan 09, 2010 at 03:22
MH

Just remember that if claiming in WA for vehicle over 4 ton as a business expense you MUST obied by the fatigue managed rules of this state...


It's late Fri night.... I'm not telling you... and have only been told this.. so just advising you


I think..


Cheers.. hic...

Richard
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Follow Up By: Member - Neville & Sally C (VI - Saturday, Jan 09, 2010 at 12:03

Saturday, Jan 09, 2010 at 12:03
Hi Motherhen, Always helpful, Thanks. I've alerted the Moderators. It may be a bit late? I'm having trouble with the curser on my Laptop(all I have), the curser just jumps allover the place. If I'm not watching constantly I end up with a very jummbled letter which takes ages to correct. Yes, I was furious and jotted down notes to send to the place I got the Permit from(Lovely girl). When I got home, it was flat out into fire protection mode to rake & burn before the fire restictions came in. By that time I'd taken my anger out on raking! I put up a reply to one of Richard's posts. I told him briefly what had happened by member message and asked him if he had a photo ofwaterfall gorge. He kindly put up a picture and asked the forum why this was the second time he'd heard of trouble with getting to certain areas. This allowed me to answer his question without getting into trouble. Big frogs in little puddles & Dogooders are two thirds of the problem , give them a title like Ab. P. O. and they think that they're sooooo good. Great to hear from you, Yes I'd like that address and when I get this curser fixed I'll send a letter. Take care Safe travels. Bye for now Sally.
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Reply By: The Landy - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 14:51

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 14:51
I think adventure and remote area travel in Australia will continue to grow due to a number of reasons (listed below in no particular order). I’m not suggesting these are good or bad, but are likely to be some of the drivers, so to speak…..

As for some ‘destroying’ the natural wonders (donuts on salt pans etc) that comes down to education and a greater awareness of the environment that is being accessed. We’ll always be stuck with people who have no respect….and for this reason I think some areas will eventually be restricted to accredited operators’, but these will be very specific areas. For the most part access will continue much the same as it is today.

Why remote area travel……

Geo-political tensions in other holiday destinations,

A desire to see our own backyard,

Improvements in road/driving conditions,

Greater confidence (sometimes misplaced) in our ability to undertake remote area travel. Usually promoted by the plethora of four-wheel drive magazines,

A whole industry has been built around aftermarket four-wheel drive modifications and therefore ongoing promotion by this group (follows on from 4WD comment above),

Improvements in remote area communication,

More leisure time (aging population)

Cheers
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Follow Up By: jeep cherokee - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 15:11

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 15:11
Landy, in my opinion i rekon you have summed it up pretty well.
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Follow Up By: Member - Dunworkin (WA) - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 23:35

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 23:35
In a nutshell Landy


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Follow Up By: Member - Timbo - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 14:20

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 14:20
I agree Landy, all except for one point:

"As for some ‘destroying’ the natural wonders (donuts on salt pans etc) that comes down to education and a greater awareness of the environment that is being accessed. We’ll always be stuck with people who have no respect"

I don't believe you can 'educate' respect into people. I suggest that most vandals (both the city and the country varieties) are already educated well enough to know that what they are doing is wrong/inappropriate.
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Reply By: Member - Oldbaz. NSW. - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 14:52

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 14:52
Hi John, the only direction I see remote touring going is up. That is a continual
increasing of the numbers turning up on the once perceived remote treks, such
as Canning, GRR, Cape, Tanami, GCR etc. We find not only larger numbers of
our Baby Boomers lot but many more young families on the road. As you say the
BB are far from the peak & the youngun's are unlimited. Many, including me,
are finding that a modest outlay will get you into a rig to tour most of the
remote outback, while many will be more than happy to part with big bucks to
have all the fruit. I dont think fuel prices, at present levels, are having any
negative effect on remote travel. Friends of similar vintage are saying to me that
many of the favourite treks & places bear no resemblance to their first visits
many years ago, due to development & the sheer numbers of visitors in peak
season. One particular mate was disgusted that he had to join the continual
traffic jam to the Cape last winter...only saw dust he said..interspersed with idiots.
The only likely Govt action will be to close areas to all if they are put under
pressure & then everyone loses. Publicity has caused a bit of a rush to do the
usual routes, so we will be looking for "the road less travelled". It's a big country,
perhaps we need to spread out more. Not you city dwellers...just us noble
travellers. :)))....oldbaz.
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Reply By: Willem - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 15:06

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 15:06
Hi John

Popularised places are under pressure. The coastal fringe will still attract the hordes. The main tracks criss crossing the country will be used more often. More population, more travellers, more cars, more caravans, more idiots, more road deaths, more everything..........

But you can still get to remote places closeby you as we proved last weekend.

We were about 300km from our home and on the coast with not a soul in sight and where NextG had a very weak signal which necessitated the use of the Satphone to make a call :-)

I don't think that the price of fuel will make a difference. Those who want to travel will make the necessary adjustments to their budget.

Infortunately the Bogan travellers are out there as well. They too earn money and buy all the goodies they want. They are the ones who want to take all their modcons with them and befoul the places they visit and do donuts on salt lakes and churn up the the dunes with their motorbikes with little care or conscience.

The short term future will still be OK but in 10 years time when I get to the end of my travelling days I am afraid that travelling around Australia will have a new meaning to it. You may be priviledged enough then to book a campsite at a remote roadside stop for $50 for the night. All other places will be either out of bounds or fenced off!!!

I am pleased that I came before the Baby Boomers :-)....and that I have seen the best of the country over the years, travelling with few restrictions or hinderances.


Cheers

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Follow Up By: Member - John - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 18:25

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 18:25
Willem, I envy you, you have indeed been lucky travelling the country with out a lot of restrictions. Have fun during the next ten years and safe travelling........ John
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Follow Up By: Wilk0 - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 20:34

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 20:34
Here Here Willem,

It seems as though we havent turned a better page. Youll keep going longer 10 years though lol
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Follow Up By: Member - Neville & Sally C (VI - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 08:45

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 08:45
Hi Willem, We think you've got a good point re things fenced off and big money to camp. We believe that in about 10 yrs. it'll be only these big tour companies with thier big Okas who will be able to take a group of people into these really remote areas and they will have to pay big money for a Permit. Places like Ayres Rock which are on bitumen will still thrive. It will be extremely overpriced. Take care. Safe travels. Bye Sally.
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Reply By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 15:45

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 15:45
Hi John,
Give it time. In another ten years or so the only new 4wd's available will be soft roader vehicles and only those of us who have looked after our old Troopies will be able to negotiate the corrugations :-))

KK
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Reply By: Member - Duncan W (WA) - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 15:49

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 15:49
One interesting and alarming aspect of the resources boom here in WA is that many of the caravan parks and motels are being bought out by mining companies so as to house their staff. This means that traditional holiday accomodation is lost.
This in turn may force the development of wayside camping areas or a whole new market for open camping areas. Only time will tell.
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil B (WA) - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 19:27

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 19:27
I agree with you Dunc.

In addition many of those that haven't been scooped up by mining companies are being bought out and subdivided for 'resort type developments/housing'.

Sadly its all about money.

cheers

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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 23:39

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 23:39
True remote travellers are not relying on caravan parks. Many of the parks now used for mining accommodation, or sold for their high real estate value are in holiday destinations such as coastal resorts, rather than on the tour map of the remote travel adventurer.

Main Roads WA has created a number of rest areas with bins, pit toilets and some even with dump points. Most are too near the road for us, but some are set well back. They do seem to be adding to these. All good news for out of town campers. Their website brochure on rest areas on major routes says that only those showing 24 can be used overnight, when in fact many of the larger ones (with and without toilets), particularly those along the Eyre Highway, are popular overnight stops and have several campers in them most nights.

Extract from brochure:
This guide lists the rest areas and amenities
provided by Main Roads which enable you to take a
short break from driving and help reduce fatigue.
Use this guide to help plan your trips and keep in
mind the following tips:
?? Allow enough time for breaks in your journey.
You should take a 10-minute break every two
hours and a longer break every four hours;
?? Get plenty of sleep before you set off and start
early in the day when you are well rested;
???? Avoid driving when you would normally be asleep,
such as late at night or early hours of the morning;
?? Avoid consumption of alcohol before or during
the trip; and
?? Stop immediately if you feel tired. Watch out
for symptoms such as boredom, restlessness,
aches and pains, sore eyes or drowsiness.
Remember, rest areas are not intended for camping.
Overnight stays are only permitted where you see
the ‘24’ symbol.

http://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/USINGROADS/TOURINGWAMAPS/Pages/RestAreas.aspx

Mh
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Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 00:37

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 00:37
Thats a very good link MH..

Cheers

RK
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Reply By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 15:53

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 15:53
John,

There certainly seems that is a sesse of urgency about getting out there and as the others have pointed out there are many reasons why it won't be the same some time in the future.

The indiscriminate decisions by governments to deny access to lands and oceans based on conservation will only get worse. Everyone and their dog will give you a reason why something should not be accessible ranging from over fishing to littering, but those mindless morons are not EO members! Saying that I care about the environment means I will do my very best to leave minimal impact if I visit. I sure as hell don't want to be legislated out of these areas and I also am very sceptical about the motives of some of the green movement.

I think it a croc when someone suggests that the actions of those mindless morons has resulted in some reduced access. There is no will by the authorities to deal with this problem in any other way other than banning everyone.

Permits may provide some solution and I'm also convinced that no amount of training will fix the "doughnuts". The fundamental problem with all this is that access to these areas has by and large been freely available and to suggest anything else does not sit well with most. And those that suggest the draconian measures seem to come from groups that either never visit or just want to feel that they have done something to save the planet.

On a lighter note I'm hurrying to get out there before the gravy train stops.

Kind regards
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Follow Up By: Nigel Migraine - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 21:09

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 21:09
"a reason why something should not be accessible ranging from over
fishing to littering, but those mindless morons are not EO members!"

Don't be so naive - of course some of them are.

NM
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Follow Up By: Member - Neville & Sally C (VI - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 09:05

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 09:05
Hi N.M., Re. Hoons, Some of these deadheads also come from the local communities with little else to do with thier time and taxpayers money. We saw it on the Great Central Road last yr. Three cars packed full of teenages.The same thing happens down here with the older teens in our area in the Great Otway National Park. Right on our corner. Kids today are'nt taught Respect nor resposibility for anything or anyone. Take care. Safe travels. Bye ,Sally.
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Reply By: Motherhen - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 16:11

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 16:11
Hi John

With people buying larger and larger rigs for their big lap or years on the road, fuel prices are not having a huge effect. They may spend less money in towns, more free camping and less luxuries to fund the fuel bill. Also more and more rigs are set up for independent camping and after paying mega$s for the rig, why would they want to pay to camp in a town? It would be cheaper to go to a motel that buy the rig.

There is also a new generation travelling younger, often before their children reach high school. The numbers on the road are increasing from all age groups (observation).

With doing treks such as the CSR becoming somethings 'everyone does', there are now droves of vehicles on formerly remote tracks such as these.

With better equipment and navigation equipment, going totally 'off road' is not just the province of the pioneering early explorers.

A few spoiling it for everyone (shutting down camping places due to a few inconsiderate people) is punishing the wrong people, and somehow the inconsiderate need to be educated.

Permits - some truly remote places may be difficult to get permits, but the determined can succeed. Regular permits such as for the Gary Junction Road is a farce. you can get one on line for the NT side, yet have to wait three weeks or more (if you can get one at all) for the WA side. Some travellers told us they got one for the NT side but didn't bother trying for WA. The communities themselves are welcoming, and don't ask you to show your permit. That reminds me, i must write to the Minister about the WA permit.

Motherhen

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Follow Up By: Member - Tezza Qld - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 18:39

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 18:39
I agree Motherhen

Most of these permits are a farce. I broke a main spring coming down the CSR in August and it delayed me two days .No problem, but trying to keep to the dates on my permits for the Gary Junction Hwy and Sandy Blight etc. went out the window. I also cant see what permits to travel on these more used tracks achive.

Cheers Teza
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Reply By: Member - Neville & Sally C (VI - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 17:21

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 17:21
Hi John, I think Permits to access the more remote, scenic areas of Oz are going to be a problem in the future, due to Dogooders & angry misguided people. We may even be banned from owning vehicles big enough to tow trailers or caravans, not in the near future but with all these climate change supposed fixes it may happen not too far down the track. Please see post to Royce. Take care. Safe Travels. Bye, Sally.
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Reply By: Wilk0 - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 17:23

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 17:23
Hi John,

I believe there a too many people in Oz at the moment. I would like a cap of say 20 million. i believe it would be easy to limit or stop immigration to ensure this happens.

This way there would be less pressure on our infrastructure.

I also dont believe that we should improve the traditional outback tracks or amenities.

It shouldn't be easy to traverse some of our remote areas and thats the allure of it.

Less people will do it and those who do put the effort in will reap the rewards.

Cheers Wilko
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 18:01

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 18:01
Hi Wilko

There is a proportion of adventure tourists, in particularly from Germany (we see members here) that come to do our iconic outback treks. Capping our population may do good in many ways, but overseas tourism dollars helps our economy, and this is encouraged by our powers that be.

Mh
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Follow Up By: Wilk0 - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 18:46

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 18:46
Agreed Motherhen,

The Tourists who travel this great land is a boon we must encourage, I'm talking about full time Immigration.

I dont care what race we allow (thats not the argument) but how many people can Australia handle 20 mil, 25 mil, 30 mil? I think we have reached critical mass already

I think a lot of the issues we have are due to increased population.

Cheers Wilko

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Follow Up By: Member - Phil B (WA) - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 19:14

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 19:14
Wilko you say cap at 20m haven't we already got 22m - what are you going to do with the extra 2m? ` lol.

Phil
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Follow Up By: Wilk0 - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 20:31

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 20:31
Doh ok 22mil then (or maybe we could have a cull) lol

Cheers Wilko
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 20:38

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 20:38
Yes, lets start with culling off the dirty and inconsiderate. That will end the all the problems too.

Mh
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Follow Up By: Willem - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 20:57

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 20:57
If you want to do some culling you can start with my neighbours...ROTFLMAO


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Follow Up By: Member - Duncan W (WA) - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 01:28

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 01:28
You can take mine first!!!!!!!!! & I ain't laughing!!!!!!!!!!
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Follow Up By: Member - Heather G (NSW) - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 06:21

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 06:21
and mine too please!!!
Of all the paths you take in life, make sure a few of them are dirt. John Muir

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Reply By: Crackles - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 17:44

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 17:44
Initially I feel it will get even busier in remote areas over the next 5 years. So many have done the big tours (CapeYork, Simpson etc) & are looking for that next challenge. Unauthorized access, overuse & vandilism to some areas will see even more closures. Fuel prices will again lead to a reduction in numbers as we saw when they were nudging $2 a litre prior to the GFC. Access to select groups like commercial tour opperators or 4x4 associations will increase.
Ironically it's internet sites like this that have contributed to so many heading into remote areas which are no longer quite as remote any more as a result.
Cheers Craig..............
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Reply By: racinrob - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 17:55

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 17:55
This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Foul Language Rule .

Forum Moderation Team
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Reply By: Member - Flynnie (NSW) - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 19:02

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 19:02
I agree with the views already posted. It will only go one way. More expensive, more regulated and harder to get permits to where we want to go.

Doom and gloom no way. Just a good reason to get out there and do it now, not sometime never. We at least are fortunate to still be able to do it.

I read in the paper today that some country is introducing a kilometre tax on ks travelled. It's not going to get easier!

For those who have it take that long service leave and get out there while you can. Don't wait for retirement. Plenty of time to do the retirement things later, touch wood.

Flynnie
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 20:46

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 20:46
Hi Flynnie

We are already heavily taxed on the kilometres we travel here in Australia. The fuel taxes here are extreme. Trouble is in a large country, we have to do large kilometres in our day to day lives, be it work, family or recreation.

I have come to the conclusion that the Government should subsidise the Grey Nomad generation of travellers. We see fit and healthy 65 and 70 + year olds trekking up hills and down gorges; fittest seniors in the nation. They aren't likely to be a cost to our public health system like those retirees sitting at home and whinging about their aches and pains and becoming rapidly unfitter. Gee, perhaps they should make outback and adventure travel compulsory for seniors.

Mh
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Follow Up By: Willem - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 20:55

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 20:55
Yer not referring to me Motherhen about the aches and pains? :-)

But like the Baby Bonus, maybe we oldies can get an Oldies Bonus to Travel. What a great idea!!!


Cheers
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 21:05

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 21:05
Hi Willem

No, you'll still be travelling around the Great Sandy Desert or some equally remote locations when many others your age (by then) are confined to their wheelchairs in the nursing home, costing the public purse heaps. They certainly should subsidise your cost to keep travelling and trekking - mine too. All that travel and walking did wonders for our weight, aches and pains, blood pressure and heart rate. All coming undone now we're home.

We met one elderly couple who were doing more walks than we were, including the steep ones. They must have both been over 70, both with health problems. Her hands were bunched up with rheumatoid arthritis, and she could only travel again now due to a new injectable medication. She was always smiling and looking happy. So many wonderful people out there and travelling against adversity.

Cheers

Mh
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Follow Up By: Member - Flynnie (NSW) - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 21:51

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 21:51
Motherhen

Could not agree more.

I kid you not about the kilometre tax. Tax knows no bounds. We might have thought it would end with the GST, well now there is the proposed ETS and Netherlands is introducing a kilometre tax.

http://www.government.nl/News/Press_releases_and_news_items/2009/November/Kilometre_charge_for_road_users

Travel is good. It broadens the mind and is good for the body and spirit. With Country Music Festival coming up at Tamworth I am reminded of that John Williamson song "Campfire On The Road". "We have a right to light a campfire by the road".

Flynnie
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Follow Up By: Member - Timbo - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 15:23

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 15:23
Motherhen, I think to say "They aren't likely to be a cost to our public health system like those retirees sitting at home and whinging about their aches and pains and becoming rapidly unfitter." is perhaps a little unfair... I personally know at least two couples who ended up selling their trravelling rigs because their need for constant medical attention means they simply can't travel far from the well-serviced cities/towns now (and their medical complaints are completely unrelated to how active/inactive they are).

And I'd believe the 'climate change' religion would try to introduce a kilometre tax if they could, and it wouldn't be the first time we paid a tax on a tax (think: fuel excise, and the GST on the excise)
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 15:35

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 15:35
True Timbo, but in making an overall generalised observation (that those travelling and walking almost every day are fitter than most retirees who stay at home) i did not mean to cause offence to anyone who doesn't fit the pattern. Of course i have met and/or know people who sadly have had medical problems end their travelling dream, those who travel against adversity and and cannot participate in walks, as well as retirees whose interest is not in caravanning but in competing in Triathlons and the like.

Mh
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Reply By: Member - Mfewster(SA) - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 22:01

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 22:01
It is easy to say we need to cap our population, but we don't really want to examine the consequences.The only study I am aware of that tried to work out a max population for Australia that could be sustained without degrading the environment, set a figure of around 14 million. The irony of this of course is that our whole economic system is based on growth. The only way to cap our popultion, whether at 14million or 20 m or 30m would require a degree of government control of the economy similar to a communist country and this would send most of those who contribute to these columns inti mouth frothing rage. A sustainable, rather than a growth based economy, is a key part of green policies. Where the greens differ however is that they try to have an overall policy that links the various aspects together and in doing so they manage to have some bits that get up just about everyone's noses (including mine.)
Climate warming; population growth; water resources; national park control etc etc are all just aspects of the same problem. None of them can be dealt with on their own. So our population will continue to grow and our only defence will be to increase restrictions on more and more areas.
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Follow Up By: Member - Min (NSW) - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 12:20

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 12:20
You've hit the nail on the head, my friend. While ever our economy is based on growth rather than sustainability our population must grow. The argument is not just for Australia but the whole world. There are too many people on the earth!!!

Now that I've set the cat among the pigeons I'm declaring that as we are OT this is the last word on the topic!

Min
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Follow Up By: Member - Timbo - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 14:34

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 14:34
"There are too many people on the earth!!!"

I've heard a few people say that but strangely, never with enough conviction that they will volunteer to get off first...
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Follow Up By: Member - Mfewster(SA) - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 18:13

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 18:13
That's true Timbo, but it doesn't mean that the proposition is incorrect. Like, too many in a lifeboat in a rough sea for safety, without enough water to go around. But don't hold your breath waiting for volunteers to step over the side.
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Follow Up By: Member - Timbo - Monday, Jan 11, 2010 at 13:06

Monday, Jan 11, 2010 at 13:06
Isn't there a word to describe people who will advocate a particular course of action so long as they don't have to take part in it? Something like 'hypocrite' perhaps?
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Follow Up By: Member - Mfewster(SA) - Wednesday, Jan 13, 2010 at 11:29

Wednesday, Jan 13, 2010 at 11:29
Nope. Look at the argument again carefully. Population control doesn't mean suicide, just restricting the number of one's own offspring. But as I pointed out originally, the problem with restricting numbers ,whether talking about Australia or the world, is that our entire economic system is based on expansion. Until this is replaced with a sustainable, non expanding model, the pressure for increased population will continue because population growth frives increased demand and consumption.. No political party in Australia, except for elements of the greens, is prepared to advocate a zero growth population model. If our natural birthrate slows, we will bolster the number with immigration. Look at the panic caused when housing prices fell recently. Look at how every measure of economic health isd always given in terms of "growth."
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Reply By: 2000 Red Rodeo - Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 23:36

Thursday, Jan 07, 2010 at 23:36
We are planning a remote trip for April. This is something I had thought I would do when I retire (34 now).

When I was young my grandfather who worked Australian Airlines as an engineer had a heart attack and died 6mths before retirement. My mum died aged 45 from a rare heart condition.

In Aug last year my dad passed away from Motor Neuron Disease aged only 55. He and his wife had only recently set themselves up with a 4wd and camping gear about a year before he found he had the disease and they were planning to spend more time travelling. It never really got to happen.

Bottom line 2009 was a bit of a wake up for me. No point working hard all your life saving and putting of till retirement. As retirement may never come. My focus now is to start doing these things now, while balancing the financial realities of life. No point sending ourselves broke, but at the same time having realistic priorities.

The other up side is that we will get to share these trips with our kids who are currently only 4 and 7.

Back to the point of your thread. I can only see these remote area trips increasing as people chase what we are chasing. A chance to get out and see Australia and also get away from the crowds. Although that will get harder (avoiding crowds).

I'm not to pessamistic about the access side of things although going forward I think there will be a greater financial cost. When 40% of car sales in Aust are for SUV's and Utes, etc and whole industries are set up promoting 4wdriving we are not going to witness the end of 4wdring in our life time.

Also with GPS and Sat Phones, SPOT, UHF Radios, etc and well equipped vehicles it is getting easier to do trips that in the past would have been considered to hard. As Jeremy Clarkson (TopGear) said on the North Pole special exploration now is about demonstrating how easy things can be done.

The down side of this is as always the idiot factor. Those who either ruin it for others with their rubbish or noise or behavior and those who don't respect the inherent dangers of remote areas and end up getting themselves killed because they don't use basic common sense.

As for me, I will be out there somewhere when ever I can and will be making the most of however many days God has in mind for me whether that be 50, 70 or 100 years.
AnswerID: 398181

Follow Up By: Member - Neville & Sally C (VI - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 08:21

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 08:21
Yes, I used to be a Nurse. I saw this happen all too often.A similar thing happened to my parents only it was cancer. They did one trip only. Neville & I drive up from S.W Vic each yr. on our annual leave. It's a lot of driving but at least we've seen a lot of outback Oz. Do it while you can. Take care. Safe travels. Bye Sally.



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Follow Up By: The Landy - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 10:54

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 10:54
A well balanced response with some very good points! We all think we will live for ever..the reality is quite different...

Enjoy your trip!

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Follow Up By: jeep cherokee - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 15:13

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 15:13
2000 Red Rodeo,
You have really summed it up very well.We are in the same situation.I am 52 this year and my wife will be 58. She lost her youngest son 5 years ago (age 22) and her sister in law in 2008 to Motor Neuron disease at the age of 57.
We are now in the position to sell up and hit the road which we will be doing early next year.Why wait if you are able to do it earlier,you never know when your time is up.
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Follow Up By: Member - Timbo - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 15:14

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 15:14
Good points Red Rodeo, but even then, they're not the only issues...

How many people are still alive but had to sell their rigs because their need for constant medical attention means they simply can't travel in remote areas?

I spent a while thinking I'd do a trip when I could convince a few people to come along with me. Eventually, the director told me that I should use up some of my leave for my own sanity if nothing else so I set out on four week trip on my own. I was the envy of numerous grey nomads that I encountered all through my trip whether I was marching back into camp after a half-day hike up some nearby mountain or just climbing up/down the ladder to my roof-top tent. They all joined in a single refrain: "We wish we'd started out travelling when we were still young like you!"
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Reply By: Jack - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 08:16

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 08:16
The more you write on internet forums about great locations and trips, the more people will read and want to go and see it forthemselves.

Unfortunately, some regular internet users feel the need big note themselves and give the impression that they were the first white people to travel and camp in certain areas - Well, you can't have your cake and eat to!

Jack
AnswerID: 398208

Reply By: Member - Neville & Sally C (VI - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 12:47

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 12:47
Re: last entry, Sorry, I don't know what happened. I tried to retrieve it & get rid of the end bit which wasn't showing when I sent it. However, I couldn't get it back, must've been too late.Bye for now. Sally.
AnswerID: 398259

Follow Up By: Motherhen - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 22:07

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 22:07
Hi Sally

You can always hit the Alert Moderators button, and ask them to tidy up the post for you. Otherwise it is not a problem; your message is clear.

Mh
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Follow Up By: ModSquad - Saturday, Jan 09, 2010 at 11:54

Saturday, Jan 09, 2010 at 11:54
Sally,

We have fixed it for you as per your emailed request.

Regards

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Follow Up By: Member - Neville & Sally C (VI - Saturday, Jan 09, 2010 at 12:20

Saturday, Jan 09, 2010 at 12:20
That's great, Thanks and thanks too to Mh for her help. Her screen name is true to her form. Always helpful. Bye Sally.
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Reply By: Member - John and Val - Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 18:15

Friday, Jan 08, 2010 at 18:15
Thank you everyone for your thoughtful and thought provoking ideas. This is obviously a topic that matters to the sort of people that inhabit this forum.

As I said above, I've been asked to write a revue on the future of travel in remote areas. Thank you for a lot of valuable thoughts. Reckoned I'd better print off a copy for easy reference - took 17 pages!!!! I'd better go and plant a tree to compensate!!

If there is one strong message running through everything that's been said its "Get out there NOW and DO IT". Next Year may be too late for any number of reasons - health, permits, expense, crowds, ..... Do It NOW!!!!

Once I've unravelled it all and made it into a coherent story, I'll post it here for your entertainment.

Many thanks for your interest and ideas.

John
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Follow Up By: Member - Timbo - Monday, Jan 11, 2010 at 12:55

Monday, Jan 11, 2010 at 12:55
"Get out there NOW and DO IT". Next Year may be too late for any number of reasons - health, permits, expense, crowds, ..... Do It NOW!!!!"

NO! Don't publish that! Perhaps something more like "wait 5 years and then get out there and do it" (that will give the rest of us 5 years to see it before it all gets too busy!) LOL :-)
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Reply By: get outmore - Saturday, Jan 09, 2010 at 13:38

Saturday, Jan 09, 2010 at 13:38
while it s a bit harder to get away from it all its still not that hard its just people are inherently lazy.

why figure out there own treck when they can read about one?

the Holland track is a classic there are plenty of other bush tracks and yet everyone wants to do the holland track because it has the most write-ups
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Reply By: Member - TJ (VIC) - Saturday, Jan 09, 2010 at 17:22

Saturday, Jan 09, 2010 at 17:22
Yes the iconic tracks and places will become busier in time. If we can accept change then that shouldn't bother us. My mum always told me that there is no use in worrying or complaining about something you can't fix.

I'm sure 25 years ago there were those who believed we were overpopulated and there will be those that believe it in another 25 years.

I just spent two nights in the foothills of the high country, swam all day, ate and drank like a king, watched a Platypus swimming around at dusk, viewed great birdlife and saw no-one else for the 3 days. There were no doughnuts anywhere, the camp was very clean and well maintained.

I'm not concerned at all about finding ways to get away from the crowds in the future. Just don't go to the most popular places and you'll enjoy the serenity without the crowds. We are still very free in Australia. Lets keep it real.

TJ..
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