Yet more power from small Diesels....

Submitted: Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 16:34
ThreadID: 77144 Views:5080 Replies:12 FollowUps:40
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I can picture the die-hard purists of "no substitue for cubic inch" shaking their heads at this link.

Navara upgrade

I reckon in time this will confirm that there is no advantage left in diesel over petrol in terms on engine longevity... time will tell.

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Reply By: Member - Wayne B (NSW) - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 16:41

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 16:41
I agree with your comments about longevity.
Also the new engines cant take any contamination in the fuel system. Dont try to use Bio Fuel in them either.
Australian Fuel is not up to the euro specifications.
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Follow Up By: Member - Tour Boy ( Bundy QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 16:55

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 16:55
Yeah I bet there will be a few "grenades" of many makes in the comming years unless our fuel improves.....renault V6 Diesel will tolerate our fuel...not.

Cheers
Dave
Cheers,
Dave
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Follow Up By: Notso - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 17:30

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 17:30
Spare a moment for the Kia Sorrento

2.2 litre diesel.

145 Kilowatts and 436 NMs
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Follow Up By: marcus - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 17:46

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 17:46
Or the new VW transporter twin turbo diesel 2 litre tdi that puts out 132kw and 400nm and has a 7 speed auto behind it to push the tools around.
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Follow Up By: Bob of KAOS - Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 23:24

Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 23:24
Or the Landrover D4 twin turbo 3.0 tdV6

180kW, 600 Nm (at 2000 rpm), 0-100 in 9.6s.
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Follow Up By: Pavo - Friday, Mar 26, 2010 at 15:53

Friday, Mar 26, 2010 at 15:53
"Also the new engines cant take any contamination in the fuel system."

Why should they be able to handle 'contamination'? It's about time we went to the source of the problem - the 'contamination' and not blame the product using the 'contaminated' product. It's unfair to blame a car manufacturer for something it can't control.

Pete
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Reply By: Member - Mfewster(SA) - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 17:39

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 17:39
Related but slightly OT. Quite apart from fuel issues, I have doubts about the long term life of the new generation diesels in all brands. Diesels run at much higher compression ratios. Diesels used to be built much heavier than petrol engines because of the size of vehicles that used diesels and the high compression ratios. I suspect that in the search for better fuel figures, they are now being built much lighter and may not last nearly as long as diesel engines of the past. But on the other side, many who prefer petrol argues that the diesel injector maintenance is one of the hidden costs of diesels. I would think that as petrol engines are now all fuel injected, they would have roughly the same issues and maintenance costs. Anyone knowledgeable out there who can comment on these?
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Follow Up By: Member - Tour Boy ( Bundy QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 19:07

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 19:07
Last time I had the injectors in a petrol landcruiser done it cost me $175 for the lot...common rail 4 cyl hilux $4k
Cheers,
Dave
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Follow Up By: Madfisher - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 20:36

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 20:36
We have now owned six fuel injected petrol vehicles and have yet to replace the injectors. On our first which was a xf Falcon I had to get them cleaned a couple of times. All Jacks from the 2.6 on had self cleaning injectors. Bit of a worry this $1000 a pop business.
I believe that modern Petrols will out last hi tech highly stressed tds. Most petrols are now doing over 400000ks anyway. Helped a mate put a head back on his old xf falcon last week, and with over 300000ks their was no wear to the bore.
Cheers Pete
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Follow Up By: Member - Mfewster(SA) - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 22:41

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 22:41
Funny we should be discussing this. Just yesterday I (literally) blew up my 1996 Falcon with 216000 km on clock. One piston shot to bits. Have had some expensive problems with injectors on a Nissan Skline (The Aus built one. Petrol, great car) and also some expensive injector issues with a Peugot diesel 504
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Follow Up By: Member - Mfewster(SA) - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 23:06

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 23:06
Is there any technical difference between diesel injectors and petrol injectors that could mean diesel injectors cost more?
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Follow Up By: Matt M - Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 13:01

Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 13:01
Mfewster...potentially about 20 000psi difference in injection pressures.
Petrol injectors are not exposed to combustion pressures, temps etc due to injection behind the inlet vavles.
Diesels inject into the combustion chamber and are exposed to all combustion temps and pressures.
There is no comparaison what so ever of pertol to diesel injectors.

Matt.

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Follow Up By: Member - ross m (WA) - Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 13:04

Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 13:04
Genarally diesels are 4 times the cranking compression,say 130psi vs 500psi and about the same during ignition 600psi vs 2400psi.
The psi inside a diesel injector tip can be between 12000 to 20000 psi(on old school diesels ,not sure about new ones)

I think its kind of pointless even to try and compare the injectors.

When diesels had electronics added to them and petrol engines got longer service intervals the benefits of diesel died away.
However,I will keep driving my old 1HZ until either I die or it does and then Ill probably rebuild it : )
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Follow Up By: Member - ross m (WA) - Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 13:05

Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 13:05
You beat me to it Matt;)
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Follow Up By: Member - Mfewster(SA) - Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 16:59

Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 16:59
Thanks Matt and Ross, I now understand the difference.
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Follow Up By: Madfisher - Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 20:44

Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 20:44
What about the new breed of direct injection petrols such as the sidi Comodores. One of our customers recently got close to 1000ks out of a sidi.
This is going to blur the diff between petrols and diesels even more.
Cheers Pete
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Reply By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 17:51

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 17:51
Yeh, think I might junk-out my 6.5 Chev V8 diesel and put a new 1.5 litre diesel donk with common rail and it will only use a teaspoon of diesel every 1000 klms and put out 400hp and a 1000nm of torque. Life expectancy: 1 week! hahahahaha

My old clunker will run on just about any oily substance that happens to be handy (so i believe). I'm happy that she only drinks about 17 litres/100km; but she'll do that all day and all night....up hill, down dale and with an all-up weight of around 5 tonne, including camper trailer.

I hope I'm never placed in a position where I HAVE to buy a new, computer-chip-controlled plastic-fantastic 4x4..... I think I'd rather give the game away to be quite honest.
AnswerID: 410221

Follow Up By: Mark S (cns) - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 18:22

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 18:22
I knew this post would bring ya out Roachie!
Don't worry, I think by the time the ole clunker packs it in for good, you'd be going with it... hehe!
Don't think there will be any longevity issues with my tug either - 2000 3.0d slowlux, only done 101k and pumping out a mind boggling 65kw & 197nm - now that's just plain lazy, glad I'm in no hurry... haha!

Cheers
Mark
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Follow Up By: Member - Lionel A (WA) - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 20:15

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 20:15
Roachie, feel the same way about my ol' MK.

Essentially a truck motor designed in 1958 its still plodding along nicely.

Economy of a Kenworth, pulls like a Mack and rides like a brick.

Brought it home once on a mixture of petrol and kero, it didnt complain.


Cheers.....Lionel.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 20:47

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 20:47
Settle Roachie - You at least have the 4800 petrol patrol option.
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Follow Up By: Members Paul and Melissa (VIC) - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 20:49

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 20:49
Keep it goin Roachie, i will always have a memory of what happened 18ks out of Birdsville. i also sometimes wish i had a low-tech diesel also until i drive one.
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 22:02

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 22:02
hahaha, good one Paul, thanks for reminding me. However, like most of my "issues" on trips, this one related to overloading and chassis cracks; nothing to do with the venerable Chev donk......it would have been happy to get me back home....hahahaha

Luckily for me, I've now reached the age where I'm not in a thundering hurry so I'm happy to plod along.....;-)


Cheers blokes....
Roachie
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Follow Up By: Alan S (WA) - Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 17:27

Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 17:27
Hey Lionel

I think you cursed yourself with that comment.



Alan
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Follow Up By: Members Paul and Melissa (VIC) - Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 18:16

Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 18:16
i was more refering to mine breaking the crank, the chev will outlast you.the chassis breaking was just one of those things. my mate was pushing me to stick a 6.2 or 6.5 in mine instead of a new 4.2 but the cost of doing that would have been double of what it cost for the new 4.2 and pump plus the FTE puts out more power i think. i drove a 105 with a 1HZzzzzz in it, reminded me why i like mine! hahaha
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Follow Up By: Bob of KAOS - Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 23:27

Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 23:27
''up hill, down dale and with an all-up weight of around 5 tonne"

3 tonnes of which are fuel
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 at 10:54

Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 at 10:54
"Life expectancy: 1 week"...thats very realistic.... considering the way you drive :)))
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 at 10:55

Saturday, Mar 27, 2010 at 10:55
and all thatcrap you carry
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Reply By: Member - DAZA (QLD) - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 18:41

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 18:41
Our neighbour has a little 4 door1.6 Getz and we pay similar rego as he does, the 3ltr Patrol is twice the size and weight.

Cheers
AnswerID: 410232

Follow Up By: sastra - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 18:54

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 18:54
ssshhhh, loose lips...........
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Follow Up By: Member - Ups and Downs - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 20:14

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 20:14
Yeah, so you paid more in Stamp Duty to buy it, and more taxes on fuel etc to run it - so tell the neighbour he's not doing his bit for the economy. The cheapskate!

Paul
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Reply By: Secret Mens Business - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 20:18

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 20:18
We'll have to wait and see, if these new diesels all expire within 5-6 years then I don't see people buying them again. What we don't have at our disposal is the engine build specs. Typically as you increase compression ratios and horsepower from a given design you usually upgrade the strength of the components. Nissan may have done this as I suspect all makers would.

I don't think it's a huge jump but what they fail to reveal is the torque figures down low in the RPM range, smaller capacity engines usually rely on RPM. A 3.0 litre diesel will make more torque down low than an identical 2.5 Litre etc etc.
AnswerID: 410251

Follow Up By: Member - Mfewster(SA) - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 23:03

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 23:03
I'm not sure that they do build everything up stronger. The lighter the engine, and especially the lighter the moving parts, the greater the fuel economy. Being able to claim 5.9 litres per 100km rather than 6.1 L per 100 will translate into a lot of sales. Going back a few years and not entirely sure of my facts, but as I recall it, the first of the lightweight diesel sedans was the VW Golf Glo. I am pretty sure that they just bolted a diesel head onto the standard petrol engine on those. I think they were about 1.4 or 1.6L.
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Follow Up By: Madfisher - Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 20:48

Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 20:48
I think you are on the right track Mfewster, to make diesels smoother and more petrol like you have to lighten pistons etc.
Cheers Pete
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Follow Up By: Pavo - Friday, Mar 26, 2010 at 15:56

Friday, Mar 26, 2010 at 15:56
"We'll have to wait and see, if these new diesels all expire within 5-6 years"

They won't expire within 5-6 years. Sure, they might not last 20-25 like a 1HZ or like my brother's (the model just before the 1HZ, the 4L), but it's highly unlikely they'll be dead in only 5-6 years.

That's my bet.

Pete
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Reply By: olcoolone - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 21:20

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 21:20
1923 the average automobile engine had 20Hp and today they are getting well over that figure reliably with better fuel consumption.

Back in those day you were lucky to get 15000 miles out of them with out a rebuild.

1974 the old Holden red motor needed a rebuild at 160000 kilometers.

And today we are seeing well over 400000 kilometers with no real issues.

I think people are being naive regarding the reliability of these high tech diesels.

People soon forget the problems that a lot of the old motors had in there time
and the factory recalls.

High performance diesels have been around for over 10 years now and some people still can't get use to it....

OR they are finding excuses why not to buy a new vehicle.

What technical data have you got to say a new high tech diesels are ticking time bombs.


AnswerID: 410258

Follow Up By: Madfisher - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 21:46

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 21:46
Yes hi performance Diesels have been arround for ten years eg the 3lt Jackaroo diesel a ticking time bomb if ever their was one years ahead of its time in 98 the journos loved it at the time. And lets not forget the 3lt Patrol. We have given up at work on Mazda tds after replacing several heads.
On a seperate note it would be interesting to see how long a 1920 engine would last on to days oils./
Red holden motors where doing 160000ks in the sixties by the 70 s they where doing 250000ks and I know of
some vb Commodores that racked uo 400000ks
Cheers Pete
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Follow Up By: mikehzz - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 22:42

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 22:42
Olcoolone I agree with you. Motors today are so much better than they were years ago in every way except ease of working on them. Dad was a rep driving a Kingswood, needed a grease and oil change every month and needed to be filled up after Sydney to Yass. Recondition the motor after 100,000 miles. Any of the old 4 cylinders.....forget it, they didn't last at all. Today's cars are heaps better in my opinion.
Mike
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 12:38

Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 12:38
Yeah people forget that those old dinosaurs were new technology once.

We went through this in the late 80's with new fan dangle electronic truck engines, had so many drivers say "I'm never going to get one of those new ones.....what happens when they break down in the middle of no where and how can you get so much HP and torque out of a small engine"

Gulf transport use to run Cummins k19 engines in some of there roadtrains and they did a test with this new Cummins N14 525E engine, the K19 is a 19 lt. engine compared the the N14 at 14 llt.s, they found the N14 to be better on fuel and gave more usable torque giving quicker trip times....that was 20 years ago.

If people took the time to go back they will find most new engines have given some trouble when they were first introduced.

Piston problems, cylinder heads cracking, crank and big ends.

Doctors must have a very hard time with some clients....trying to convince then the new material they use in hip joints is better then the old!

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Follow Up By: Pavo - Friday, Mar 26, 2010 at 16:00

Friday, Mar 26, 2010 at 16:00
"I think people are being naive regarding the reliability of these high tech diesels. "

Can't agree more. Why don't people question the reliability of a Falcon 4.0L? In 1982 it made about 90 odd kilowatts and was 4.1L, now it makes 195Kw and it's 4.0L (and take into account the stricter emissions legislation). Twice the power, but no less reliable - I'd say more reliable. Certainly more fuel efficient.

Pete

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Follow Up By: Member - Mfewster(SA) - Friday, Mar 26, 2010 at 16:23

Friday, Mar 26, 2010 at 16:23
One of the turning points in engine life was done by the Japanese (in the late 60's, I think.) When a young lad, it was a big deal to get all the engine components "balanced" when you were setting up a performance motor. I think it was Toyota that had the bright idea. Rather than working on anindividual engine and balncing the pistins just for that engine (expensive a time consuming and not suitable for mass built engines), Toyota took weights of every piston as it was produced and then matched them up in sets that were close to being balanced. Not as good as a custom balanced engine, but those early Toyota engines were a revelation in their smoothness from a mass produced engine. Me and the mates could not believe just how smooth and easily revved they were when the first Corollas and Coronas started appearing.
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Reply By: happytravelers - Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 21:29

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 21:29
Had a D40 Navara towed in today, owner reckons it just died on the highway. Only one cyl. has any compression, haven't had a chance to dismantle it to find the problem yet.
AnswerID: 410259

Reply By: D200Dug- Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 23:02

Wednesday, Mar 24, 2010 at 23:02
Most of these vehicles will be traded and off the road within 10 years anyway.

Very few people keep a vehicle for it's usable life span. The market is skewed towards disposability and replacement with the new upgraded improved model every 2 to 5 years.

It is just a sad truth of our consumer society.

Modern cars are more reliable than ever but also have shorter lives and are far more expensive to repair and maintain than ever.

It is a disposable society we live in it is cheaper to replace things than to repair them.
AnswerID: 410274

Follow Up By: BuggerBoggedAgain - Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 21:54

Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 21:54
Our 1999 Corolla is now on 266,000 klms and still going strong, 15 klms.per.litre
We cannot afford any new vehicle,we will keep driving it till it does a blues brothers ending.

We keep it serviced regular, 10,000, second timing belt coming up,still no probs.
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Follow Up By: D200Dug- Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 22:35

Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 22:35
I had an old 1999 toyota ute I was told to sell by SWMBO when it only had 300,000 km on the clock, a 2.2 lt petrol motor and still running perfectly even if the bodywork was a little rough round the edges.

I personally would prefer to keep a reliable car for 10 years or more but the general public prefers to upgrade to newer models so they have shiny new things.

It is just how marketing and advertising works on our buying habits.
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Reply By: JR - Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:09

Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:09
Quoting 8l/100km seems fanciful
Older (current) model diesel uses more like 10-15 and delivers power just like you would expect, nothing down low and a big rush as revs climb. Load them up and they use more than the TD42ti
Not a bad thing but in commercial vehicles thats not what users want. Figures on engine performance only tell part of the story
AnswerID: 410300

Reply By: Alan S (WA) - Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:21

Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:21
Horses for courses in my view. I have small diesel car for my wife a new i30, does 25Km per year and even though diesel is more expensive than petrol it will pay back the difference in car cost in 14mths. Comes with 5 year 100K warranty. Its a hyundai so i am only intend to keep it for 3- 4 years, until just before the warranty runs out.

I dont care if the motor only lasts 200K Km instead of 400K Km. I wont be doing any more than 100K Km with it. I ma only concerned with running cost.

As mentioned by others the longevity of all motors has improved thorugh better QA, manufactruing and technology, as well as the cost. The cost of a new car compared to average annual income has also improved.

The other thing to keeo in mind in quoting life figures of old against new is that usually it is the engine internals that are referred to, yes a engine may have done 400k but how many times was the alternator, radiator, battery and the rest of the car parts, brakes, shockies replaced to get this mileage. Number of cars that I had when i was young that had great engine compression, but the body was falling apart or constantly broke down due to engine ancilliaries failing.

Now at least you have a better chance of the whole package going the distance.
AnswerID: 410309

Reply By: Member - Christopher P (NSW) - Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:23

Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:23
I think i will stay with my old 82 hilux, with 2.4l 2L motor, it has being upgraded the motor, with the 5spd box i have sitting in the garage.

Finally got rid of a lot of noise in it.
AnswerID: 410310

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 13:30

Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 13:30
I've also a 2.4Lt, 2L motor, has done over 6OO,OOO Klms now and is stuffed for sure, but still cruises at 1OO kph and gets 1O.5 L per 1OO Klm on the highway.
Had fuel pump and injectors rebuilt back in 2004.
Broke the timing belt last year, so I replaced the belt and fired it up with no hassles. Has not seen the inside of a Toyota dealership since it run out of warranty.
It gets an oil & filter change about twice a year too, had a grease about two years ago so must be due for another this year I reacon, maybe before the Willuna gathering.

Have to admit the thought scares me to change it for a 4wd when it dies one day.

Maîneÿ . . .
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Reply By: Member - Tour Boy ( Bundy QLD) - Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 12:24

Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 12:24
I just passed a bloke in a new D/max or colorado with a caravan stuck on the side of the Bruce Hwy parked on a funny angle in the table drain with the bonnet up waiting for the racq. Must have dies quick to be in the position he was in.

Cheers
Dave
Cheers,
Dave
2010 Isuzu FTS800 Expedition camper
2015 Fortuner
Had 72 cruisers in my time

Lifetime Member
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Follow Up By: D200Dug- Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 22:30

Thursday, Mar 25, 2010 at 22:30
I would love to know what his problem was :-)
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Follow Up By: Pavo - Friday, Mar 26, 2010 at 16:33

Friday, Mar 26, 2010 at 16:33
Me too.

Last week I saw an 80 series (petrol) on the side of the road with its bonnet up. I assume it was over heating, but you never know, do you?

Pete
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Follow Up By: D200Dug- Friday, Mar 26, 2010 at 16:41

Friday, Mar 26, 2010 at 16:41
I am surprised at the number of cars beside the road down here in Victoria. By just casual observation it seems a lot more than in Queensland.

Many of them are relatively new cars and of them there are some quite expensive models amongst them.

I guess anything mechanical can break down.
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