Renaming Fraser Island

Why do you call someone you disagree with "do-gooders"?
If they are doing good,you must be a do-badder.

The saying annoys me as well, but there are plenty of do nothingers around as well. Mike

And clearly a bunch of know nothingers also. Scary things knowledge and reason it seems.

When its not do gooders ,its "bleeding hearts".

My personal favourite is 'soft centre'...makes me want to hand in my man card.

Yes Ayres Rock will always be Ayres Rock to me as will Fraser Island and Subiaco Oval still be Fraser Island and Subiaco Oval.

I'm not against change for good reason but this doesn't seem to be a particulalry good reason.
It wont hurt anyone.
And yet Ayres rock used to be a landmark that you could climb. Uluru soon wont be.
Is this the thin end of the wedge?
Will Fraser Island be the place our grandchildren will remember as the island you used to be able to drive on?
That's my worry.

Aboriginal culture is getting swamped against the deluge of white European culture. They feel like they have to throw whatever they can into a lifeboat to save some remnants. After all they can't go to the Aboriginal library to look it up, its all word of mouth. Integrating their name for it into our culture goes some way towards saving something of their history before its all swallowed up.
Agreed that I would not like it if they stopped us driving on it, but using the Uluru example is not quite accurate as it is a sacred site comparable to one of our cathedrals. Try and climb all over the religious crap in a cathedral and see how many people you upset. It means nothing to me but I wouldn't do it out of respect for their beliefs in both cases. Mike

Excellent post mike.

Mikehzz , Ayers rock a sacred site ? To who ? It was a place avoided due to the nature of the surounding landscape , a place of infrequent water supply and game , only became sacred when a $ could be made from tourists. 2008 a "new sacred area was proclaimed at Ayers rock " yep , the sunrise veiwing area was shifted and expanded to cater for more tourists [ =$] as the previous area had all of a sudden been declared a "sacred site" ,

Wow you are clearly not afaraid to expose your ignorance publicly are you. Plenty of books in the library which examine Aboriginal history in the Uluru / Kata Tjuta areas and their place in mythology.

X2 Mike...

most people are blind...

when you travel australia properly you will realise there was once a great nation here....
A great nation who's suburbs where named in seasons and where a typical city-block would stretch for thousands of miles...

it didnt matter aboriginal history was written in stone, european influence decimated that nations library's

and now that same influence is up in arms becauase the people want thier heritage back...

it is unbelievable how blind some travelers are...

go for it mob's, you are not walking alone!

G'Day robertbruce,

Gotta agree on your blindness statement. Theres plenty who've done a lap and havent seen what they were looking at ... eh ???

The evidence of the great nation you speak of ??? ... care to elaborate ???

Its just that .... since the aboriginal people claims (that are supported by white man studies & guestimates) suggests at least 250 languages with up to 700 dialects were in use .......

... It would seem to me that there was no - great nation .... but rather a whole lot of little nations .... Just like europe used to be ......

And with european documentation of its past events .... We know how a bunch of little nations sharing a landmass - behave on occaision .... Dont we ?

Sometimes you even need lots of permits to get across all the borders .......

I like "seasons as suburbs" - nice play on words ... and I presume you mean the requirement for hunter/gatherer groups to move around in their allotted areas, depending on conditions ....

Which would mean measuring their "locale" in SQUARE miles ... rather than the fanciful LINEAR miles you're promoting.

History written in stone ???? ..... Again I can only presume as to the meaning of your writing ..... But I think I would be correct in guessing that you are referring to the collection of carvings and paintings that depict various objects, animals and humans ..... but sadly ... as is typical in primitive art ..... no representative items forming a time line - to establish "history".

..... Now as for people wanting their heritage back ..... I would really like to be assured that the "correct" people got thier heritage back ......

......... As of the 2000 - supposed aboriginals in my area .... only THREE of them and maybe a couple of direct descendants are "traditional owners" .......

heya OT, i would love to eloborate but i prolly dont have the skill or time to do it fully and properly....

I like "season as surburbs" too... there could be volumes written under that title and i would encourage anyone to grab it and run with it...

I would like to revisit what said abount aboriginal art, namely "written in stone".
Maybe i should have said written on stone...
The timelines can be seenby xray, carbon dating technology and the artists that maintained the art.....
Of aboriginal art, it is not sporadic drawings and there are quite sophisicated systems involved in creating it, preserving it and maintaining it...
The original artist's drawing would be re-colored by the current living artist...
Iit must have been combforting for these people maintaining thier records to know that under thier freshly maintained image lies hundreds of incarnations of that image.
It must have been comforting for that culture to know they have a history that stretched back for eons even if they couldnt plainly see it...

as i said OT, i aint very good at this and ya' can hang me out on that point if you want but "season as surburbs" does speak volumes, i just can't write them..

None of us are really any good .... when it comes down to understanding a stone age culture .... still attempting to survive in a world - which had passed them by.

But I think the powers that be, need to get good .... for a happy outcome.

Fanciful, passionate writings about a culture, written in todays time of political correctness .... do nothing but aggravate an already very delicate situation.

To elaborate ... you only needed to mention what evidence you saw, lead you to believe there was a great australian nation of aborigines ... rather than a collection of various sized, individual, independant groups of aboriginals scattered across the landmass.

Seems that everytime a single example of something aboriginal is highlighted .... It becomes coast to coast dreamtime lore .... and in turn swallowed up by a gullible public "experiencing" the country through a quarter inch of laminated glass.

e.g. .... Yes there are many examples of rock art with evidence of long "maintenance".

Is it "maintenance" in all cases tho ... or simply a case of copying/painting between the lines. ????

.......... And then of course there is the examples where original work has been vandalised/hidden/forgotten .... by painting something something totally different over the top of it.

In many cases I've seen ..... a lot of obviously "newer" art is of lesser "quality" than art still showing from underneath ... and Im not referring to works done recently since the "loss of culture" after aust. was chosen as a penal colony location.

The timelines you speak of, that can be found using modern techniques are generally only "snapshots" of time/points in time ... not history ..... and examples used from a collection of different sites do not form a time line.

Way too much "presumption" is gleaned from such adhoc info ... depending on financial and personal gain for some ... such as the fact that I keep mentioning now and then .... Where some elders in the kimberley 20odd yrs ago assured me that bradshaw figures were not aboriginal and quote .... "rubbish art"

Yet now bradshaw figures are SOOOOOOOOO aboriginal .... since a bugs nest on one example was able to be dated. ...... and that date assists in land right claims.

You do realise of course that your ancestors had a culture and history that stretched back eons ???

They used to daub ochre and spit, on rockwalls and tell their kids where food and water sources could be found too.

Theres nothing particularly special about aboriginal culture compared to the rest of the world.

Except for the fact - a Pre Neolithic culture .... is still existing in a time of wheels, agriculture, stock management and electricity ...

And the REAL problem is.... How best to allow/ensure such an existence in a world that has moved on.

I remember a little while back, we were fortunate to see a group of Aboriginals setting up for a Traditional Corroboree, they were teaching their young folk how to dress up with their painting on their faces / arms /chest ect, now as we all know the traditional marking was coloured ochre in this case they were using white water based house paint, and for plumage on their heads they used filling from babies nappies, that looked like white goose feathers, at the time I thought the old blokes just couldn't be bothered teaching the young ones how to get the materials or how to apply it properly, I made mention to the fact to a ranger and he said they have forgotten or can't be bothered, as a lot of the kids are not interested in the old ways, now if you give them a football they will show a lot of interest.

Cheers

OT wrote ....
"rather than a collection of various sized, individual, independant groups of aboriginals scattered across the landmass"

the above is such a cheap shot OT that i am surprised you bothered with it... independent, individual and scattered is so atrociously wrong and you know it!

the aboriginal invented the wing, level-action spear, sustainable land use and airconditioning* way before the white man got out of the dark ages... there isnt anything political correct or dreamtime in this statement, it's fact

imho, australia was the garden of eden before europeans arrived...

*there are carved hollows along the banks of the murray... during the 08 heatwaves the some hollows showed 22degress celcius rather than the 40degrees being experienced "outside"... the hollows are carved in particular places, there needs to be a few geographical elements present for the system to work...

Cheap Shot .... Pfftttt

One Race and 250 languages ????

Hardly conclusive evidence for an integrated society such as you suggested.

Truces during ceremonial and trade agreements dont make a nation ....

Dr D. R. Horton, Encyclopaedia of Aboriginal Australia, Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies:

...Aboriginal people take great pride in their personal and group identity. Differentiation of almost every aspect of culture and society has been used at some time, somewhere, to form a mark of identity. In spite of the diversity however, no matter where Aboriginal people come from in Australia they are recognised, and recognise each other, as being one people.

...Over an unimaginably long period of time and the immense distances of the Australian continent, regional differences in language, religion, social organisation, art, economy and material culture arose. Some of these differences in resources and material culture could be balanced by trade, and over time great trade routes developed. Goods could travel all the way from the north to the south of the continent. Other routes went from east to west, or from the centre to the edge.

...Not only goods travelled these routes, but ideas for technological innovation, and songs, ceremonies and news all travelled with the lines of people carrying baskets of pituri or ochre on their heads, or bundles of spears on their shoulders.

...Diversity has always been a feature of Aboriginal society and has been manifested in many different ways. There were several hundred distinct languages (two-thirds of which are now extinct), each on average having several dialects. Songs, stories, dances, ceremonies, Dreamings and paintings were all owned in different ways depending on complex laws. People took pride in differences in initiation practices. The houses they lived in, the spears that were carried, and the animals that were hunted all differed in subtle ways between neighbours and differed greatly over great distances.

In spite of the diversity at another level, Aboriginal culture shows many consistent features across the continent. The fact that there were no invasions before 1788 contributed to this unity - all Aboriginal people are related to each other. Trade also helped, but it thrived on the fact of difference. The greatest contributors to maintaining unity were probably the great ceremonial meetings which took place in all parts of Australia when seasonal conditions were suitable and abundant food sources were available. People travelled hundreds of kilometres to such gatherings, and hundreds, perhaps thousands of people could gather for some weeks on each occasion.
etc
---------------------------
There's plenty more resources online and in libraries which might help fill the vacuum. You simply don't know what you are talking about.

Don't ask me why but somehow I prefer the views of people who have studied Aboriginal history and customs.

i can't help but feel your just trying to portray primitive man as a mindless redundent ape with no integrity... thus no blame...

Back then there would have been at least four-degrees of seperation for the races survival.
To maintain that it would have taken a large interconnected complex society with a general will for goodwill... that should define thier nationalism just enough to support my use of the word nation...

to support my evidence of cities with city blocks and suburbs that stretched for seasons across a great red land (nation), would it be ok by you if i was to refer to rock-art site as a library? or as to three hectares of scrub as a utterly self-subsisting and self-reliant springtime farm? I would need to do this to describe where the evidence of the nation is and where the annual gathering was...

many thanks for that post Bazooka... and your right, a properly studied, rather than my treked view, is much better however i was reluctant to take it on in the first place...

when i walk through this land i feel those who have treked through before me... this is probably right. It is the experience of hiking though a continent not carved up by the wheel...

SIMPLE APES .....


I've sat through through seminars and conventions where righteously minded, sanctimonious, politically correct individuals have sprouted such artistic and flambouyant comments as in the posts above ........ Sat right next to real aborigines who are either shaking their heads in disbelief or trying to stifle laughter ..... at the over-emphasis placed on aspects of their society.

..... but then later in conversation .... are almost in tears at the under-emphasis on their actual needs ...... that those same speakers have no idea of.

Im pretty sure I know who the Simple Apes are .....

You keep trekking about robertbruce ...... maybe with normal sunglasses on .... instead of the rose coloured ones ....

Ok OT, it sounds like you have shared a witchety grub or 2 with some black fellas and it seems your opinion is that anyone with good intentions and some book learnin' wouldn't really know if their bum was on fire? You may be right, but give me people with good intentions any day. Civilization progresses because of them. Instead of insulting them...the word sanctimonious springs to mind, try and enlighten them. Surely they are better than people who don't give a rats?
Aboriginals have a daunting array of problems and there probably is no answer but to let nature take it's course and to me that's sad. I certainly dont have an answer thats for sure. But back to the original post, I don't mind at all if they refer to Fraser Island by it's Aboriginal name. I find it interesting to listen to fairy tales whatever the culture. Mike

Of course OzTroopy we only have your word that yoiu've seen this, done that, with a tiny number of aborigines. Given the amount of nonsense you've posted I have my doubts that much of that it true, but even if some of it is how is it representive of the knowledge of the culture and history of the aboriginal race? So one black fella might think x is bullshxx, but against his opinion stands years of study, consultation and research by anthropologists, sociologists, archaeologoists, historians - both black and white! That aborigines would collectively hold a single view on any subject is ludicrous. As I said the discoveries, findings, and views of experts can be found in hundreds of books if only you would be bothered to look.

Noone doubts that many modern aborigines have problems, just as many have adapted to western culture and many have endeavoured to embrace both cultures. Perhaps it has escaped you that white fellas have alcohol and drug problems, are violent, involved in major and petty crime, etc etc ? Maybe your anger would be better focused there.

Wrt solutions to aboriginal problems: people with good intentions and wide ranging knowledge and expertise have indeed been trying to improve the lot of aboriginal health, education, and living conditions over a long period of time - often in consultation with aborigines and aboriginal leaders themselves. Of course, as in 'white fella land' there are a diverse range of views which have to be dealt with. It is complex and there is no single solution to any problem - not surprisingly the same applies to many of the problems in our culture.

And your white 'simple apes' are the very same people who have worked over the decades to 'give' aborigines basic rights such as the right to vote (!), recognition in the constitution, land and related rights, recognition of sacred places and traditional names. (Strange how the sky hasn't fallen in since Uluru was given dual occupancy with Ayers Rock. My guess is that Fraser Island/K'gari will have the same earth bleep tering effect).

Naturally not every solution has worked (see the Stolen Generation) but these 'simple apes' not only are trying their best to understand the aboriginal culture and people, they are actually in there helping the best they know how.

By the way Robert my earlier comments were in response to this blokes' posts, not yours. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

PS off topic, but gee I love how the indigenous fellas play our national game. Their silky hand and foot skills, the way the soar to make spectular marks look easy, their speed and evasive skills. Exciting and breathtaking. Very glad they took up the footy that someone else refered to in a post above.

OT, there is a spiritual-like connect when you place one foot in front of the other accross this land. You don't need rosecolored glasses to feel it, but you do need to do some serious treking to experience it...

the next time you go on a 30K overnighter realise that everywhere you have placed your foot there have been many feet before, much the same as this discussion, it has all happened before and it will all happen again...

for a large part of my life i was raised with aborigines, walk-a-about is the dreaming, its a beautifull retreat, a meditation, its not contemporary by european standards, but then niether is the ideals this society professes to live up too...

Not "anyone" mikehzz ..... Just the ones with fanciful notions that earn them personally - more kudos ..... than actual benefits for aborigines.

And its pointless attempting to enlighten them because the conversations end up like this thread.

People start raving on about the invention of the 'wing" ... and "airconditioning"

The boomerang (wing) was a hunting / killing tool.

Because aboriginals had it .... does that make tribes who used bows and arrows a lesser race .... or were the aborigines a lesser people because they hadnt developed bows and arrows.

The answer to that of course - is NEITHER .... The races used what they had.

The emphasis on the word "wing" also suggests to a gullible, modern public that the aboriginals understood the principles of flight ....

WRONG ... they understood that a piece of wood shaped like a boomerang .... would do the very clever things, a boomerang does .......

Now, TODAY - they understand the principles of flight .... and why their boomerang worked ..... thanks to da vinci, bleriot, the wright brothers and all the others ...... The same as I do.

Bazooka and robertbruce ... my apologies for not placing the australian aboriginal on as high a pedestal as you do ......

But to me .... they are just another race to get along with as equals .... despite the differences in our techologies and cultures .... as they should be with other races.

Thanks also for confirming that the "aboriginal" problem is decided on by the Pro and Against groups ..... and anybody with a middle view just gets trampled in the rush.

BTW robertbruce ..... That spiritual-like connection can be made at any point on the globe ... Its not an aboriginal specific thing ....

Unless you want to be racist and deny indigineous peoples from the rest of the world their early beliefs ......

30k overnighter .... baaahaahaaa ..... Hot showers and a mattress ???? ... I wish.

.....and anybody with a middle view just gets trampled in the rush.

Are you being facetious? Yours is a "middle view"? I can think of a dozen other adjectives which better describe your comments. But I also think I am being unkind and I apologise for that - you appear to at least be trying to understand the issues unlike some of the more extreme and ignorant views posted here.

Have never understood why some people like to wallow in their ignorance - it is obviously too difficult for them to seek out different, rational views and information so that they can have an informed and reasoned opinion. We all have our own leanings and prejudices but knowledge often helps to ameliorate the extreme views at both ends of the spectrum.

Travel safely.

OT wrote..."

Not "anyone" mikehzz ..... Just the ones with fanciful notions that earn them personally - more kudos ..... than actual benefits for aborigines. ""

that is utter crap OT - you have no idea about what i havn;t or have done!

it was through my efforts and many many others, that i was able to assist in a dramatic reduction in the mortalirty rate of aboriginal prisoners by forcing corrections to be answerable and by stopping the inception of more of the insidious privatised prison...it took a large chunck out of my life but i am glad for the effort...

a dreamer i may be, but a doer i am also...
what have you done? except to discourage the likes of me...

i should have said the spiritual connect is more intense in aus, even a whitey can feel it...it's because the land hasnt been totally carved up by wheels and war and maniacs for the last few thousand years...

i dont like using the word spiritual but there seems little else to describe the feeling...
however i feel it is a bit unfair you using the word "equal"... from your earlier posts and your ignorance, equal is something you may only apply to yourself...

Hot showers and a mattress ... i wish too!

40,000 yrs , information passed on by sign language and 250 plus guttural languages + dance steps , no concept of time [ enter the dreaming] , and aboriginal demands yes demands that that we change names to a "TRADITIONAL" name , ok just lets all do it, BUT first show us all dumb white fellas how you know that that NAME is the original ;
Army training , line up a section of a platoon ,each member 3 mtrs apart in single file in the scrub , scout gives a 3 part hand signal and by the time it gets to the last man ???????? Yep 40,000 years , , even the last 240 yrs , has the "STORY" been corrupted ,better believe it , and no one really knows the real "TRADITION", wear what you've got , join the century you live in , the past is just that , The Past , we can learn from it , but who in their right mind would want to go back to the stone age.

Smarter men and women than you or me Alloy will determine the veracity of any claims, just as they have done for decades.

"Noone really knows the REAL tradition..."
You haven't got a clue who knows what about any aboriginal tradition so why bother commenting. If you do have evidence that the claims are fictitious I'm sure the Qld govt would be glad to receive your submission. 100/1 on that they won't get any factual knowledge from your hand.

Most aborigines are doing exactly what you are ranting about - trying to cope with two cultures, living in the present, but preserving their own history and culture to the limited extent possible. There is NOTHING wrong with people wanting to preserve or record at least some remnants of their history. It adds to our knowledge, and the rich cultural history and diversity of this land. 'European'Australians have done it since the year dot. Why should the original inhabitants be denied the same right?

Giving dual or aboriginal names to features in the natural and built environments is nothing new, and should hold no fears for anyone. It has certainly got nothing to do with going back to the stone age.

Bazooka ....

Alloy c/t asked ..... " BUT first show us all dumb white fellas how you know that that NAME is the original "

If your answer to that is " "Noone really knows the REAL tradition..."

What makes a statement from one person about a particular "traditional" issue correct ....

...... and anybody who chooses to think otherwise/suggest alternatives ..... A liar, ignorant or racist ?????

Is it just the current political and legal viewpoint .... or something else. ????



Bit touchy there robertbruce ....

The comment in my post to mikehzz contains three criteria - to meet my assessment of the "anyones" I was talking about.

You only met the terminology aspect .... even before you divulged your achievements.

Im surprised, given your self awareness of your involvement in achieving worthwhile benefits for aborigines, that you felt you met all THREE criteria.

Rest assured .... I would have stated you by your forum name as one of the "anyones" .... If I thought it was deserved.

As it was .... I simply used your flambouyant description of a bent stick and a shaded, damp hole in the ground ...... as examples.

Now if reconciliation really works .... I trust that in any future posts - both of us will refer to those two things as a boomerang .... and a cool, rest spot (unless you have a better, realistic term for this one) ....

awwww, c'mon OT, you know i consider myself an ordinary man, else my nik would be robertThebruce, or some other incarnation of the phonetic..lol...

im almost 50 ... when i walk into the bush these days I see this most incredible structured space that I dare to call it a city...


so much gets lost in translation.

a cool rest spot it might be, but there are all sorts of cool rest spots... some are only cool in the morning, some are dusty in the afternoons and some make you want to stay for weeks....
I can imagine the local inhabitants packing up there hunting-wings, level-action spears, and stun-sticks to make a move to the summer farm. Along the way they would visit the librarys, exhibitions and fast-food stores...Between destinations the group would stay at the sparse motel rest-stops with a major rest at the Panoramic Hill hotel rest-stop, they would hope it wasn;t all booked out...they would be also hoping the 3 month pregnent daughter-in-law makes the maternity hospital in time...
Late today i am going to a place that if i was a woman i would have my babies there.... I know that sounds funny, but there isnt anywhere else around this area suitable.
The site im heading to has always been fresh, has stone floors, has a constant water supply and the gully gets the sun most of the day.... there is barely any dust around and the whole area just seems impeccably clean...

i would prefer aboriginal place names so i had some idea of where i actually was and that i had some idea of what purpose the area had...

your not blind OT, ino that, but i can;t quite work out what your fishing for....

Alloy c/t is a GOOSE!!!!!

heh heh .....

Hotels, libraries, exhibitions, and maternity hospitals .....

No "poor fella me" problems where you are ..... You've got better facilities than my nearest town in "civilised" rural NSW. ... LOL

Your last post content is what I was fishing for .....

Offering comparisons / descriptions of the two cultures "equivalents"

Much better for creating understanding between the two cultures .... than telling my culture that the aboriginal culture INVENTED the wing.

Im simple too .... and like REALITY .....

e.g. I would get really excited about knowing how the boomerang came into use.

That will never be known obviously .... but a PRACTICAL discussion about it would be just as interesting.

A guess on my part is that it was simply a piece of flat, bent stick sheared off by a lightning strike .... picked up by an inquisitive person and thrown away out of indifference ..... or in the hope of smacking a wallaby with it.

I can just imagine the scowls & bad language as it missed its target ..... and the wide eyed reaction as it came back.

From then on of course ..... it was just a matter of replicating the original.

As for DreamTime creation of the boomerang .... Well thats aborigine business to be interpreted as they see fit .... and to be accepted/respected by me in much the same way as any Races folk tales I might take an interest in.

Now without being derogatory to aboriginals ..... I'll Just state a fact about the "airconditioning" business ......

Looking at all the holes in the damp soil under my house ....... It would appear that my cattle dog also has a fair claim regarding the "invention" of airconditioning.

So maybe ..... it could have been that noticing the actions of the dingo/wombat whatever ..... or a realisation, whilst digging out a platypus burrow .... that led to the common sense use of shaded, damp holes by aboriginals ... as rest areas.

IMHO the overemphasis of what aborigines did does more harm to their cause than good.

Belittllng their culture for its simplicity however ..... Is not right either .....
As it used to be my ancestors culture once too .... in a slightly different form.




Finally getting the hang of this middle ground business yet Bazooka ?????

OT - I take it back you aren't trying to understand at all.

"Noone really knows the REAL tradition..."
Try and keep up, that was Alloy's statement not mine. He obviously has no expertise in aboriginal history or culture, in fact from the nonsense he writes one can reasonably deduce that he barely understands the basics, so this statement has ZERO CREDIBILITY. His is a comment based on no knowledge of the subject.

"What makes a statement from one person about a particular "traditional" issue correct .... and anybody who chooses to think otherwise/suggest alternatives ..... A liar, ignorant or racist ????? "
You can THINK what you like OT but unless you have some expertise in the area any claims you make should, and will, be taken with a grain of salt by any reasonable person. It is one thing to have a view that (eg) you don't agree with a name change/sharing but entirely another to claim noone knows the aboriginal history in the Fraser K'gari area. By the way I have no problem with that view, but I don't agree with it and have outlined why in my posts.

(Not unexpectedly) I have yet to see ANY reasoned or convincing arument on here why Fraser and K'gari shouldn't/couldn't coexist. Many of the comments are clearly or latently tainted by irrational bias against aborigines and as such contribute nothing to the debate. Fraser Island Residents Association president David Anderson's statement that "it would affect recognition. If you change it to K'gari, it's not going to mean anything (to the wider public),'' just doesn't cut it either, as the ULURU experience has shown abundantly clearly.

" BUT first show us all dumb white fellas how you know that that NAME is the original "
This is PRECISELY what State and Cwealth nomenclature committees are set up to do. They field all manner of formal requests for new/changed names. They rely on EXPERT input to determine if the claims are valid and worthy, not on some fool's statement that "noone knows the real history". That sort of input would be 'consigned to the rubbish bin' where it belongs (well it would be read, filed, and duly ignored).

I am not in the business of pre-empting any decision these bodies reach. In this case if the committee forms the opinion that the Butchulla/Badtjala people's claim is dubious or has insufficient 'proof of attachment' they may well not allow it. I would say that is a reasonable decision, although the local aborigines would obviously be cranky. They could appeal and have their claim re-assessed but ultimately must also accept the umpires' decision.

I say to YOU what I said to Alloy, if you have some verifiable information that the Butchulla/Badtjala people's claims are inaccurate/invalid write a letter to the appropraite QLD authority.

OT says: "IMHO the overemphasis of what aborigines did does more harm to their cause than good."

Okay let's get to the heart of your problem. Precisley what overemphasis gives you the willies OT? Mainstream Australia barely gets any balanced info about aboriginal history and culture so it can hardly be seen as ramming it down people's throats. I suspect the problem relates more to the fact that newspapers almost invariably find a negative slant to most indigenous issues, which reinfornces people's cynicism and antagonism.

The way I see this (and what I find both sad and objectionable) is that FAR TOO MANY people (basically good people, including many on here) rely on quaint anecdotes or stories from mates etc as their primary sources of information. You will rarely arrive at the truth or a balanced view if this is how you get information and form opinions. It is human nature that we seek out ideas which suit our prejudices and congregate with people of the same views. That's okay as long as we also don't totally ignore the well-founded/critiqued knowledge that exists (in libraries and sometimes even in the interweb).

robertbruce ....

Just in case you read it wrong ......

Add a genuine ... Lucky You ... after my LOL

Apologies for not picking up on that quote from the right post Bazooka ..... I think Ive said before that this forum layout with a lack of highlighting features causes issues.

Big reaction to a simple mistake tho.

All that tirade and you still dont acknowledge that I DONT have an issue with the Badtjala clan/tribe/people calling it K'gari.

BTW .... Butchulla/Badtjala .... Is that two seperate groups amalgamated ????

ahhh heck .... it doesnt matter ...... I wouldnt care if they called the place Thoorgine.

In answer to OT followup 29

Found this one google about boomerangs. Just about a bit of history

The oldest Australian Aboriginal boomerangs are ten thousand years old, but older hunting sticks have been discovered in Europe, where they seem to have formed part of the stone age arsenal of weapons.[8] One boomerang that was discovered in a cave in the Carpathian Mountains in Poland was made of mammoth's tusk and is believed, based on AMS dating of objects found with it, to be about 30,000 years old.[9][10] King Tutankhamen, the famous Pharaoh of ancient Egypt, who died over 3,000 years ago, owned a collection of boomerangs of both the straight flying (hunting) and returning variety.[8]

No one knows for sure how the returning boomerang was first invented, but some modern boomerang makers speculate that it developed from the flattened throwing stick, still used by the Australian Aborigines and some other tribal people around the world, including the Navajo Indians in America. A hunting boomerang is delicately balanced and much harder to make than a returning one. Probably, the curving flight characteristic of returning boomerangs was first noticed by stone age hunters trying to "tune" their throwing sticks to fly straight.[8] In 1909 the Ngarrindjeri inventor David Unaipon patented an invention for a rotary wing aircraft based on his study of boomerang aerodynamics.

Very clever OT - I acknowledge that you don't have a problem with the aborigines calling Fraser whatever they like [subtext: as long as their name isn't formally adopted or given equivalence with the European name].

To quote you: "Formally renaming Fraser Island to K'gari would simply be pandering to an absolute minority of the countries aboriginal population out of political correctness. " Or, have you modified your stance a little? If so good on you. If not, well at least we've exercised our grey matter and exchanged some views.

This is how I see it: dual names will simply acknowledge that another culture existed in the area long before white man, and use of the indigenous name will preserve some memory of that existence/culture (as does 'Fraser'). As I said - let the experts decide on the validity of the claim/name.

Do you mean "Warrigals"? ;-)

LOL ..... shhhhhhh

-------- "To us she was a liar,'' Mr Burns said. ``She said our ancestors were cannibals and treated her inhumanely. But they helped her, they saved her ... because she couldn't handle the harsh environment." --------


It was 1836 ... what would he know ???????? ............... No more than a relative of Eliza Fraser passing on hearsay stories from 180yrs ago.



-------- "When Europeans name something and take away the traditional name, it disempowers the traditional people, it takes away all the knowledge associated with that name and place,'' Dr Ross said." -------


??????????? .... Wouldnt the place still be K'gari ... to a "traditional" person.

....and if renaming of everything is so important,

Why is the Butchulla elder Mr Malcolm Burns ....... Mr Malcolm Burns ???


Roll on the day all this drivel gets sorted in a professional, commonsense and fair manner.

Half the names of places around the country are almost unpronouncable aboriginal names .....

Nothing wrong with it .....

But changing existing names simply out of political corectness .... Is absolute FOLLY.

Only thing worse in Australia than white to black racisim is the perpetual "poor fella me" reverse racism black to white , get over it ,

The question was.

why shouldn't it be renamed ?

A simple civil question requiring a simple civil answer.

First it will be re-named.

Then given back.

Then charges will apply (more than now).

Then permission to take photos will be required.

Then permission to take photos will be withdrawn.

Then local autonomous management will be sought.

Then local government will be sought.

Then annexure into a separate country will be sought.

All by 1.2% of the population.

Simply put: it is divisive. We are one country. NZ has lost the plot.

Simply and civilly .......

To us white fellas ..... Fraser Island is Fraser Island .... on every printed document and map ... since it was named.

Have you got any idea how much taxpayer funds will be wasted with govt departments un-nescessarily changing logos and stationary.

Be happy tho .... The commercial enterprise change over costs wont affect you ... unless you choose to holiday there.

Theres no shame in aboriginal history and FOLKLORE ...... And no reason why they shouldnt have that sand bar named as K'gari on their public funded maps.

Change for the sake of change ............. is mankinds most stupid past-time.

3Go Bush, what has cleaning up rubbish got to do with the name of the location?

Alby

Nothing I just thought Id mention it.

Fair enough, I was not sure if you were eluding to the traditional people showing more respect to the land etc etc.

I personally do not care what the name of a place is more the motive behind any proposed changes.
I am all for showing respect for all people but I do have an issue with the ' Our spirit is in this land etc etc argument to obtain the rights to the land only to subdivide it and sell it off as residential house blocks for profit.

This is a common practice around Sydney by the 'Traditional owners' and I do not think it helps their cause.

Oztroopy: To us white fellas...
I'm sure you meant to write: 'To THIS white fella' because you don't speak for me or many thousands of others I'm sure. I'm happy either way, and after consultation/discussion I'm confident a good decision will be arrived at.

Gone Bush - "All by 1.2% of the population."
Are you seriously suggesting that we should only ever consider what the so-called 'majority' wants? Society would be in sad state of affairs if we did. Thank heavens most of our leaders have a more informed and sympathetic viewpoint particularly in regard to aborigianl affairs and culture (which this nation is only too happy to embrace when it suits - to promote tourism, for example). I seriously doubt your contention that renaming/dual naming is divisive for the majority in any case. I suspect that many would think the exact opposite - this is a token gesture which can help unite the cultures in a very small way, and with minimal 'pain' or cost to anyone.

Bazooka , please explain how a token gesture of renaming an area such as Fraser island or Ayers rock can help unite cultures , even as you claim at a minimal cost ,, the big picture is that a small % of Australians demand to have and claim on the word "traditional" , fair enough , then please please please do it , hunting - fishing - housing - travelling - existing without white mans influence , see how long you last ,

G'Day Bazooka ......

No ... In the context it was written ... I meant "us white fellas" .....

Maps, Atlas's, Shipping Charts, Tourist Brochures, NPWS, ....... Alll Fraser Island.


Once a bunch of money has been wasted FORMALLY renaming Fraser Island ... then "us white fellas" will have the option of using two names for the place .....

But I guess only redneck racists will still call Fraser Island by the name given it in rememberance of the lives lost in a maritime accident.

FollowupID: 704254 Submitted: Sunday, Oct 17, 2010 at 13:39
Bazooka posted:

Thank heavens most of our leaders have a more informed and sympathetic viewpoint particularly in regard to aborigianl affairs and culture

***************************************************************

Ummmmmmm .... I doubt whether they really have any idea .... If they did ... This thread wouldnt exist.

Formally renaming Fraser Island to K'gari would simply be pandering to an absolute minority of the countries aboriginal population out of political correctness.

Its a bit like YOU having your street renamed just because thats what the bloke at #22 wants ... rather than a decision of all the home owners in the street.

The Butchulla/Badtjala peoples may call the place K'gari ..... But I wonder what aboriginals in the Kimberley might call a lump of sand surrounded by water and covered in trees ???????????

K'gari is the common reference name used for it by the "traditional" locals ..... Fraser Island is the common reference name used for it by the WORLD .....

Perhaps it just should be called Paradise Island ....... altho I think the crew of the "Stirling Castle" might have had different views at the time ....

Bazooka, you asked:

"Are you seriously suggesting that we should only ever consider what the so-called 'majority' wants?"

Absolutely !!

Haven't you heard how a Democracy works??

Your proposal workes in North Korea, Iran, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Russia a few years ago and most Eastern Bloc countries.

It was a rhetorical question Gone Bush, you have clearly indicated your narrow views. Strange idea of democracy I should say. Try Googling 'Tyranny of the Majority'. Ever heard the phrases 'walk a mile in my shoes', 'do unto others...', 'there but for the grace ...."? I suspect not.

Bazooka,

Have you ever noticed that, when someone wants to be condescending, holier than thou, they use expressions like:

"I suspect not." while looking down their nose.

By the way, if you walked a mile in my shoes, you'd be a mile away, with my shoes..... that's all.

Gone Bush - given your unwavering support of 'majority rules', perhaps you could also explain to me what your concept of a majority is. Is it a majority with valid interests in an issue, a majority of all citizens (voters only, or do you include anyone capable of reason?) - in an electorate, a State, a majority in the country?

And how would that majority be determined? By total count, by elected govt? And given you have arrived at this 'majority' (which itself has diverse views on a range of issues) how do you propose that we find out what they think on every issue?

Your simplistic concept is clearly unworkable, and hence is not implemented in any western democracy. In all functional societies a wide range of views are taken into account, sometimes hardnosed, but more often with empathetic practicality as the primary driver. Without that you get civil unrest and massive division.

Obviously you are under 18 and have never taken part in a Referendum.

Poor boy.

"empathetic practicality"......

now we know where Kevin Rudd hides out on the weekend.

So now you are proposing a referendum on every (possibly contentious) issue? Obviously you haven't thought your arguments through, nor do you understand the operation of referenda, which have little to do with majority views and only relate to changes to the Australian constitution.

Is that right?

In WA in the last 20 years or so we've had referenda on shopping hours and daylight saving.

Where do those topics feature in the Constitution.

Give up Bazooka. You are over your depth, sonny.

I was talking nationally Gone Bush (you know, the majority), is that a foreign concept to you or are you defining majority as state based voting public now? Your views are clearly anathema to me buddy (another big word, look it up) so I'm happy to give you the chance to explain them, but so far you've come up with very little. By the way the term is 'out of your depth'. Read up on the Tyranny of the Majority yet?

You're right Daza. Another 1.2% of the population with too much influence.

How about this disgraceful pandering:

Guide to WA

What is so disgraceful about that?????

Is disgraceful that they do a visitor guide for French, Italian, German Spanish,etc, visitors as well, or is it just because it is for Muslims??

What is disgraceful is that people in this country think like you do.

Where oh where will it ever end , the pandering to to a minority group of what we all are, AUSTRALIANS ., as an aside I'm peed off that the name of the town now known as HOLBROOK was changed from the original GERMANTOWN during WW1 , yeah right , history is written by the victors NOT by the vanquished.

So do people in England, France, Germany, Denmark, Spain, Holland, Italy....

Gone Bush, are you serious? Where is the disgrace in this?
I agree with 3GoBush. The only disgrace here is people with attitudes like yours.

You forgot to mention an island Daza. Very sacred to the traditional owners, also named by the white fella. It's known as Australia. How soon before someone wants to change that name?

I wouldn't be the first time it has had a name change.

New Holland

What a load of cobblers Gone Bush. For balance though I agree perhaps there should also be guides for Red Necks and Xenophobics.

Good Point SDG .....

I think we will be pretty safe on that tho .....

As an aboriginal name for the whole landmass ..... Would have to come from someone that KNEW they were on an island .... and had a rightful claim to the WHOLE island .... rather than just the bit limited by individual tribal borders.

.... and whilst Im happy to see dual reference to tribal LOCALITIES place names ..... and marked accordingly - depending on the users map ......

I certainly wont entertain the idea of a so called "traditional" name for the whole of Australia when the original inhabitants require the knowledge of 18th/19th century, european circum-navigators/explorers to validate their claims.

Just remember ... the term "our land" so commonly sprouted ... really only applies to the bit a particular tribe was able to defend ..... not the east coast to the west coast.

Geez GB

I just had a read re:the Guide To WA, I wonder if we would get the same, is there a list of Pubs that only cater for us Queenslanders with a XXXX taste, or Bakeries that have Yatala Pies, ect ect, nah I would rather have what the locals have and enjoy the experience and be happy,
You are right about the 1.2%, the way things are going we will be the 1.2% in a few years, sorry I will re phrase that, our Grand Childrens kids will be the minority in the future, there would be a lot of Old Diggers that would turn over in their Graves if they knew what Australia is turning into.

Regarding our First People let them have what they want, it's only a Token Gesture, like us it will fade into oblivion.

Seems you have, purely by accident, stumbled upon the great problem of the Tyranny of the Majority. One day you will find your views ain't in the majority and by heck you'd better hope 'their' attitudes are more considered and conciliatory than your own. Food for thought eh?

There is no such thing as reverse racism.Only racism.

Hi Mullyman,

IMHO Reverse racism is when something is done to help a group and it in turn descriminates against another group.

Cheers Wilko

Mullyman, There is a lot of reverse racism in Australia in regards to education standards, jobs, benefits, crime and jail.
If you are not aware of it you must live in a City and fed all the b' bleep that goes with it.

Honky

I wondered when someone would run the line 'if it ain't broke don't fix it'... and no-one has, disappointingly. Not even Gone Bush, alarmingly.

But since we are now BROKE, let's fix it. Vive le Republique.

Cheers.

A Republic !!??

Good golly miss Molly John.

And I thought I hijacked the Thread !! LOL

I like like the sound of Re PUB lic whose shout.

Cheers

I was so ashamed to be Australian when the republic referendum failed. The mother country won't even let you in at the airport where any European walks virtually straight through. All you Aussie convicts line up with the other crap while we thoroughly check your passports etc yet the queens representative can dismiss the government and the elected prime minister has to ask permission to form a government. It's probably me but the world seems quite insane....except for verifiable miracles of course. Mike

You got it Mike. Exactly. On all points.

Cheers.

John there was a 'change for change sake' though, followed closely by 'diggers rolling in their graves'. The latter was both ironic and melancholic for me as my late father (a Rat of Tobruk) would be appalled at some of the b(latent)ly redneck nonsense being trotted out here. By the way have you any 'links' to Baas Becking?

Hi Baz, cheers. No, no relation of mine.

heh heh .....

Ever considered setting up the camper trailer outside the Italian Emabassy ....

.... and whinge about the treatment of your ancestors at the hands of roman legions .... and demand compensation for having to learn about toilets and stuff .... LOL

Own flags and treason .... yesssss ... shades of the Eureka Stockade .....huh ???

Not an issue tho if aborigines are self funded, self governed, and had a permanent location to form a seat of govt.

Problem is of course .... The aboriginal culture is setup much like modern shire councils .... Lots of independant groups that generally wont work together.

So which tribe should get the balance of power ???? .... and looking at sth africa ..... leaving indigenous populations to sort out a system of management for the overall landmass .... doesnt appear to work.

America has similar problems with the Indians.
They have a Dept of Indian affairs.
The Indian nations have their own casinos

I'll bite Ross.

Maybe they should rename Perth COOK, after Sarah COOK and baby who were killed by a party of natives. She was the wife of a small farmer who was known to have treated the Aborigines with kindness.

A lot of women and children were killed(and raped) in those days but only a few were white.

didnt Tazzy form from all the poo running out from the Murrey, we should call it ..... ummmm well i will leave that one, but "mushrooms" grow well there :-)

Daza, stirring the pot.... You.... ???

But, I'll bite.

What about Truganianna for starters.

And 'Rape, Pillage, and Genocide City' to replace 'Hobart'.

Just to explain, RPG City was the base for the almost complete but ultimately unsuccessful annilhilation of all "tassies"' indiginous inhabititatants. Just rolls off the tongue hey.

We could start an EO poll to re-name all the State Caps - their histories didn't vary much, thematically speaking.

Cheers.