Demerit points.

those signs for mobile speed cameras as they are now are a complete joke.i spotted one in qld that was hanging in a tree beside the "flash for cash" vehicle.

all in the interest of "safety" they say.

the increase in heavy vehicle demerit points is looooong overdue.the amount of k's we cover a year is 10 fold more than the average motorist and we should really be on a different point system anyway( just dont get me started on that).

Really, drivers of heavy vehicles should not be breaking the law in the first place therefore not needing a points system regardless of how many more km's they travel per year.
Just like ANY driver, dont break the law, dont speed, dont drink drive etc etc. The points system is a joke. Road carnage is everywhere- its a no brainer!

On the mention of speed cameras- i think they serve a great purpose. yes they raise revenue........... but only from people doing the wrong thing. the money goes into a pool of funds who pay our police, ambos, hospitals, ses, firies etc etc who do a tremendous job and have a job i could never bare to do- who wants to scrape bodies up of the road or pull people from cars?

Maybe drivers only slow down when they know where the cameras are and resume speeding after they think they are in the clear, im not sure what you can do about that, but still the government needs the money raised to pay for our emergency services who have to deal with the affects of reckless idiots.
I know this will be controversial and im not writing this to get bites, but i am sick of picking up the paper and reading about more lives lost due to speeding etc.

and now its 13 points??????? how much time and money went into making this decision.
Its easy- dont break the law, save a life and keep your money in your pockets!

"Really, drivers of heavy vehicles should not be breaking the law in the first place therefore not needing a points system regardless of how many more km's they travel per year."

so if you reckon you are a good driver and reckon you should not have to pay the same premium as a bad driver through your insurance,wouldnt you want that changed?

Oh I wish I was so perfect!

mark
i really hope i can not find anyone who will actually agree that breaking the law on our roads is ok. Speeding is dangerous, drink driving is dangerous, driving dangerously is..well... dangerous- you get my point.

I really dont have a solution to the problem, im just saying that the points system almost sends a mixed message to drivers, monetary fines hurt but obviously arent working, speed cameras catch drivers breaking the law and fines them, thats a good thing, the government uses that money (also from a big pool of other funds) to clean up the mess caused by idiots on the road.

ALL road users should have the same responsibility when it comes to abiding by the law. we are all road users here.

if you dont do the wrong thing, you dont need points, you dont need to worry about speed cameras and you wouldnt be lobbying for more points.

im not having a go Mark. i just dont understand why the cops arent tougher on idiots on the road and increasing the flexibility of breaking the law by giving people more points isnt helping.

On a last note, im not saying the government is saintly when it comes to raising revenue, yes it does sling fines for silly things sometimes, like the log books you mention in the other reply.

Doey

i agree 100% with with you on breaking road rules is wrong......spent 12 years rescuing people with the new south wales fire brigades of people who thought otherwise.
as Hairs & Fysh said.........when isnt this NSW government of ours chasing revenue?

This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Foul Language Rule .

Forum Moderation Team

unfortunately mark, i cant answer that question- i have only ever known them to chase money. perhaps i could employ the nsw government to be my business advisers, they sure know how to generate income!

i think insurance premiums etc is a totally diferent argument. i like brians idea of charging the bad driver directly through their licence and third party slips.

doey

More VISIBLE police on the roads is better for safety.
Hidden cameras just raise revenue.

As Mark said professional drivers are more exposed to these measures 10 fold or more than most drivers so the risk of exceeding the limit going down a hill by just a couple of KPH is enough to get caught buy a HIDDEN camera.

Yes there are cowboys out there, in both cars and heavy vehicles, the only deterrent to those guys is VISIBLE police vehicles, anywhere any time.

How safe is it constantly watching the speedo rather than the road?

A good professional driver knows within a few KPH how fast he is driving but can briefly exceed the speed buy just a very few KPH that is when hi might be caught by a hidden camera, but now he must concentrate more on the speedo or tacho than he would otherwise concentrate on the road.

JMHO
Colin.

Doey, while I agree with the amount of people losing lives is horrible the extra points is long over due. How many more speed cameras.red light cameras, safety cameras etc are now around compared to 25 years ago or more before I was driving and we had 12 points back then. As far as professionals drivers go yes I have always said they should get more points. I use to drive trucks, do courier driving etc so did a lot of klms back then but that was 15 years ago before the huge increase of cameras. Now I do 8 & 1/2k to work and the yearly holidays, so the chance of me getting booked compared to some one who does 50 thou or more a year is not as likely. People who say ""dont speed you have nothing too worry about"" what, you have never rolled over the speed by 5k which is enough to get pinged, classed as speeding ?? Yes, dangerous ?? far as Im concerned no. Not sure of your location but the clowns who set the speed limits need to get another job. 100k max on the M7 here in Sydney a great piece of road, smooth, barrier all the way down the middle, etc beautiful road, get on the pacific highway parts of it like a goat track and still 100k ???? Have I been booked ?? Yes twice in 25 years, did I spit the dummy ?? yes, did I deserve it yes I suppose I did, First one was victoria rd 71 in a 60, my fault thought it was a 70 zone, the second was 108k in a 100k on the bruce highway in QLD. How can cameras serve a great purpose ?? Most people now where all the fixed are, slow down when going past then put the boot back down, hows that saving lives. Can you tell me why they are changing red light cameras to safety cameras before they put flashing lights at all the school crossings and saving kids lives ??? Why ?? Ill tell you why, cause they are not going to make money from flashing lights at a crossing are they.. but they will make money from someone going through a green light BUT maybe 4 or 5k over the speed limit................and they want to save lives ??? Instead of spending money on these mobile camera's, instead of the PM sending 500m to over seas for schools etc spend it here in the police force and get the boys in blue back out on the roads, first thing people do when they see a bluey is slow down even if not over the speed limit. While I agree with you I would hate to do the 3oclock knock as its known or be dragging/scraping people from the roads, but Im sick of people blaming it all on speed. Check out the road deaths from last year to this year !!! And still a month and a half to go, yeah the cameras are really saving lifes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Regards Steve M

hi colin

more visible police on the roads sure would help, i guess this is where more revenue could come in to pay for this. and pay for more road safety campaigns.

its an argument that as so many variables. but i really dont know that increased exposure should validate increased leniency. They are also many many times heavier than the average sedan, their speed should really be kept in check. If they are good professional drivers they would be able to concentrate and know the speed of their rig.
once again i dont have the solution. If people are so against revenue from speeding cameras, stick it to the man, AND STOP SPEEDING! and revenue will be stopped.

Doey
"If people are so against revenue from speeding cameras, stick it to the man, AND STOP SPEEDING! and revenue will be stopped. "
try telling that to the people who have been nabbed fr doing UNDER the limit on the speed camera at St Helena just outside Byron Bay and the one at Woodburn south of Ballina. the RTA admitted the cameras were a bit out but do you think they dropped the fines .....your kidding!!!as Hairs said.....demerit points take drivers off the road and therefor a loss in revenue.

like the new point to point cameras.......they take an average time from one point to the other and that time is calculated at a speed of 87 klm/hr. so where in the hell did they come up with this figure?

shakes head.

hi steve
you have to be kidding when you say because there are more cameras now you need more points. SLOW DOWN!
Have i crept above the speed limit? yes, Was it breaking the law? yes. Was it dangerous? it could have been.
the speed limits on specific roads may not be set right as far as you and i are concerned, it doesnt give you the right to go faster than the sign posted limit. The set limits and wether they are correct or not is a completely different argument.
and of course people know where the speed cameras are, most have 2-3 signs warning you, yet people still get booked them- they deserve it, they have to be pretty simple people to not slow down.
The speed cameras may or may not slow people down or prevent deaths, i never said they did, but what a great way for the government to get money to pay for the emergency services and put extra police cars on the road.
and i realise its not just speed that attributes to the road toll.
yes money is spent on other things like money to overseas etc, yes i think thats a waste but imagine how much smaller the pool of money would be without the revenue raised by law-breakers. better with than without!
its hard keeping everybody happy.

ignorance must be bliss for some people!

Hi Colin,
Howzit going mate?
"How safe is it constantly watching the speedo rather than the road? "
Over the past month or so, several X government workers have come out and said that it is a sham.
An EG was on the Gold Coast Motorway, most driver sat on an average of 10k's over the limit, he mentioned that there was nothing wrong with this, because everybody was traveling at a constant speed. When there was a change in speed limits accidents occurred. It was pointed out that even on road ways through suburbs where the limit changed, Accidents occurred. This chap has been the only one to come out say such things.

Hi DOEY,
Your dead right, Don't speed and there is no fine.
Your comment," more visible police on the roads sure would help, i guess this is where more revenue could come in to pay for this. and pay for more road safety campaigns"
Is spot on, Some speeds, a camera records it, fine and loss of points turns up in the mail a couple weeks down the track, A Copper pulls you up, Here you are on the side of the road for all to see the look on tour face, Priceless.
" pay for more road safety campaigns"
When NSW introduced the 40K zone at schools with cameras & flashing lights, the money raised from these idot drivers was to pay for cameras and the upgrade in safety( saw tooth markings, flashing lights and all the bells and whistles, in schools zones. The roads minister denies that this is the case, I believe there has been tens of millions of dollars raised through these camera and yet not one cent has gone back into school zone safety.
As in my earlier post this NSW government in hooked on the revenue from these cameras.
The Government is hypercritical when it comes to these things. The government hides behind road safety issues the same as a junkie denies he has a problem.
if my view seems to be bias, it's because I don't walk around with my eyes
shut. I have spent a few years fighting councils and the RTA over our local school zoning.
'AND STOP SPEEDING! and revenue will be stopped'
True, BUT then they will increase fees, fines and find others way to get blood out of a stone.
BTW, I haven't been fined for over twenty years,
Cheers.

Wonder how they are going to determine professional driver? I might hold a HC, but have not driven anything larger than a Patrol in ten years.

SGD
to answer your question.
you are a professional driver when you are in a heavy vehicle only and not when you are driving a light vehicle even when you have the licence for the bigger of the two,cheers.

SDG,
Don't wake them up to it.
Next they'll be asking me for proof that I need mine.
SHHH
;)

Jon
i'm not exactly sure you would go the right way anyhow

But, how are they going to determine how many points I get? The same will apply to others here who might hold a heavy licence, just because there camper requires it(bus).

SGD
i see what you are saying........that must be in the fine print i reckon.will have to check that out,cheers.

Doey,
what happens when you are a professional driver is this, every day we all break a road rule even if we are trying to do the right thing.

If I followed you I bet I could book you in the first half an hour for some infringement even though you did not intend to offend.

Example, on the Grafton bridge they could book every semi that crosses it because they can't get across unless they cross the double lines.

As Mark said, pro drivers increase their exposure tremendously by the amount of K's they do, so leeway should given to them.

As for the radar signs placed by flash cars in Queensland they are always on the other side of the car, so there is no warning to slow down, they are also not placed at black spots, just revenue spots.

I wish I could not break the road rules but in reality I break them every time I drive.

Have a good one.

Rock Ape

i understand people getting all defensive about this issue and in particular so callled "professional drivers".
And maybe if you follwed me, you could book me for doing something wrong, i never once stated i was a perfect driver, so im not sure what your point is??????
regarding the Grafton bridge, if they wanted to raise revenue so much, WHY DONT THEY book every truck????

Im not getting into a debate about pro drivers thinking they are above everyone else and needing special this, that and the other. if you choose to re-read my initial reply you will see i was talking about road users as a whole not specific user groups.

And why do you need a warning to slow down??? speed limits are there for a reason. In NSW there are plenty of black spots that have speed cameras. Just south of Coffs Harbour at Pine creek, urunga, oyster creek, valla etc- are really bad stretches of road that in the past has taken several lives. Since having speed cameras there, there have been very few fatalitlies. Now what idiot can tell me that hasnt had an effect?- and the money raised by those who still speed through them DOES go into the coffers of the government who pay the wages of our emergency services.

Drive safe mate!

Doey,

you wrote this in the post. "Really, drivers of heavy vehicles should not be breaking the law in the first place therefore not needing a points system regardless of how many more km's they travel per year".

I was just trying to explain why Mark said they need extra points. Many are clocking up between 200000 and 250000 K's a year and the chances of them acquiring points are much higher than the average motorist even though they have possibly been as safe or safer than a person that does 20000 K a year and aquires few or no points . It is just the law of averages.

They also come under much more scrutiny than the average motorist, IE: If the DMT decided to check vans and 4 wheel drives as much as they check trucks then you would find the average owner of those vehicles would be amassing extra fines and points.

Do it easy and have a nice day.

Heavy vehicle sitting at traffic lights. First in line.
Lights turn green.
Vehicle takes off.
Before vehicle reaches other side, lights change colour.(Especially if going uphill)
Red light camera goes off, instant fine. Loss of 3 ? demerit points.

Who is at fault?

SDG

trigger points for the camera are about 1m in front of the stop liine

1st pic is taken only after a vehicle enters the intersection after the light has gone red a second pic is taken to confirm they coninued on throught the intersection after entering it after it turned red

so the situation you speak of cant happen

get out more

er yas it has happened.was working in Adelaide a couple of years ago when one of our trucks took off from the set of lights upon turning green and b4 he reached the other side the flash went off.i was right behind him (i never made the take off like he did from the lights) and seen the flash go off.

the set of lights in question was on Main South Road in Adelaide.

How Red Light Cameras Workso did he get a fine?

next time you are at the intersection have a look where they have cut the actuating sensor just in front of stop line

you need to pass over this sensor just in front of the stop line after the lights go red to activate the camera

you mention only one flash when he was mostly accross the intersection so it sounds like you may have missed the first one as he ran the red and only saw the second picture it takes a few seconds later

these arnt high tech peices of equipment - they run off of sensors and timers

they have no way of detecting vehicles in an intersection after the light gos red if it has already passed the sensor

in any case thats not their desighn - their desighn is to detect people entering an intersection AFTER the red light

this should explain it better

How Red Light Cameras Work

My old man got a ticket for it a few years back somewhere up in Brisbane. He contested it.

If someone goes through a red light, does it matter if they are a professional driver or not? (NOT referring to the slow trucks taking off)

Why should professional drivers be able to go through more red lights than me? Is it safer for them to do it?

nickb

no its not safer for professional driver to go through more red lights than you, but, have you ever tried to pull up 64 tonnes when a red light appears in front of you?

Member - Mark G Gulmarrad

I see quite a few proffesional truck drivers with huge loads around my neck of the woods Perth as they head along the roe Highway and up the great Northern carrying all manor of gear to the mines

Red Lights dont just "appear" in front of these guys - they actually pay attention to whats happening

ive been driving behind and alongside one when suddenly he was on the brakes and going bacvk through the gears despite being faced with a green

by the time it had gone orange then red he just pulled up at that stop line as smooth as you like

--- Now THATS a proffesional

I have never been in a truck that size, let alone driven one. (Some of those drivers have no idea either, well the ones that tailgated me on the Pacific Highway anyway - that is another thread in itself)

But taxi drivers and couriers are classed as professional drivers, according to that article, which is where my comment was aimed.

get outmore

i dunno about other states but the revenue hunters here have decided that even going through a yellow light now cops you a fine . thats what i meant about a red ( now a yellow light) appears in front of you.even sitting on the speed limit you wont pull up when a green light changes to a yellow.

nickb

not sure about classing taxi drivers and couriers as professional drivers ( each to their own definitions ). taxidrivers and couriers dont have to go through the same rigorous training to get a heavy vehicle driver licence as heavy vehicle drivers do.

Yellow light fine the same as a red here in Sydney, people who dont drive trucks but like to bag the drivers should spend a day as passenger in one and see how people in cars have no friggin idea, its possible to get done by a red light camera when taking off in a truck, try getting a fully loaded b double over the intersection uphill, if it goes yellow once the cabs over the line you have no choice but to continue on unless you want to block the intersection with the cab ?? and if you continue then the wheels of both trailers are going to set it off. Has happened was taken to court and won. Taxi drivers professional ?? maybe years ago, now with certain drivers it can be extremely scary. Getoutmore, the driver you commented on probably new the intersection and new they had been green a while and new they were about to change, yes did the right thing he could have put the boot down and tryed to run them. Nick the first comment was about been done in a truck when starting off, not purposly running a red. I have no problems with red light cameras, I have a problem with safety cameras but, see how long it takes for more rear enders as people who would have plenty of time to get through are now going to nail the brakes when right at the line on an orange and the person behind is going to run up their clacker. Yes I know dont sit to close ,leave plenty of room etc but its going to happen more now then ever. Should proffesional drivers get more points ?? definately. like in my previous post before, when driving trucks and doing courier stuff I was doing well over 50k a year, and most truckies, interstate etc do extremely to huge klms, i now do 8 & 1/2k one way to work, pretty easy to see who has the highest possibility of getting booked, Im not saying that it gives them more right to speed but there is a lot more chance of being done and even for accidents not just refering to speeding. Now we spend more time looking at the speedo constantly instead of concentrating on the traffic and whats going on around us all because we could get done for 4k over the limit. No ones still bothered to explain why we are changing all the red light cameras to safety cameras and we still have school crossings with no flashing lights to warn of school zones and kids around, isnt it about safety ????????? mmmmmmmm Regards steve

pretty sure all states you can be fined for entering an intersection on a yellow, but it can only be done by coppers who have judged you could have stopped safley

red light cameras cant ping you for that

Mark G, agree with you about couriers/taxis. The reason I mentioned it is because the article specifically states it.

The point I was making is that it is just as dangerous for a taxi/courier to go through a red light as it is I. Why should a taxi/courier effectively get less punishment than I for running a stop sign? Some/most road rules are the same, it doesn't matter who it is that breaks the rules.

Speeding is a different kettle of fish. For example, getting booked for doing 106 in a 100 zone on an open freeway that you have driven 2,000 times in the last 3 years is a bit rough in my eyes.

I reckon it is a bit of a double edged sword. The professional drivers obviously do more km than most, in turn they should know the roads better(so to speak) and drive accordingly.

I don't drive as much as some (I do about 40-50,000km a year) doing service work and haven't accrued any demerit points in the last 6 years. I'm not entering a urination contest, but if I can do it why can't others? I'm no angel, I just drive with the flow of traffic, whether it's fast or slow. I have deadlines to meet and emergency call outs to attend to aswell.

NOTE: This is aimed at taxi/courier drivers as the article specifically states, not truck drivers as I have no experience on that field.

Jon

spot on there with those comments.

spelling mistakes in heavy vehicle log books.............revenue.
writing 22/11/10 instead of 22/11/2010.................revenue.
driving 15 minutes over your alotted time to find a rest area that i not full of vans............revenue.

oh thats right.........safety.

Not fair Mark
take it easy on wobblybox owners, you may be one, one day.
Cheers Colin.

Colin
not a shot really at van drivers but you guys dont get fined for 15 minutes extra driving to find an empty rest area.we dont mind them being in there if they need resting,it's just the way in which they take up room ( parking like there is no one else who needs to use the rest area) is what gets up our nose thats all.

Did the state Gov mention as well that box trailer rego has gone up to $56 from $46. 25 odd % increase
No they didn't. Sneaky buggers.
Registration fees have all gone up.
I rest my case your honor.

spelling mistakes in heavy vehicle log books.............revenue.
writing 22/11/10 instead of 22/11/2010.................revenue.
driving 15 minutes over your alotted time to find a rest area that i not full of vans............revenue.

oh that's right.........safety.

Hey Mark, what about the overload fines. They write you up for 60kg over on one axle But once they give you the ticket you can drive your load and deliver it just about anywhere still over loaded........ revenue.
Don't get me started on speed cameras the blood pressure couldn't stand it.
Cheers Dave..

To those of you who think that the loss of licence means they are off the the road have to be playing with themselves.Have a good look on the TV those local & overseas reality programs & youll see how many stay off the roads.(yeah right) think again.Coppers in view on the roads are like the camera's they slow down when they see them & sped up when they go past them.let the ratbags toff themselves as long as they don't take out the innocent.Then lock them up when they get convicted & keep them there till they grow up (in th Head).
My thoughts have a good day.


Bob.

Hi Gazz,
Totally agree mate, twenty old years the old Falcons and Kingswoods that we drove around in doing easy a 100k's, well the same pieces of roads now have 70 or 80k limits. It's a joke.

The high way between Albury and Melbourne, apparently was designed by those who did the Autobahn in Europe. No speed limit there. Less accidents, but when they do, they are bad ones.

I'm all for safety on the roads ( lost my mother in a car crash years ago ) so I know what people go through - but the biggest cause of accidents is INATTENTION not Speed ! This is 2010 - soon 11 and in todays society we work faster, talk faster, run faster, think faster, react faster, drive on express ways, use express checkouts, expess post, speed dating ( God help us ) microwaves, induction cooktops, fast food etc etc - the list goes on and on - and all the Government want to do is slow us down ! I got done a couple months ago doing 20 over the limit heading from Perth to Adelaide in the middle of nowhere coz I was looking at the scenery not concentrating on driving ( see INATTENTION ) - could have sat safely on 130/140 ! Apparently by fining me 300 odd dollars my driving skills improved - I can now drive better than Garth Tander, Craig Lowndes and Mark Webber put together ! If the government of this country is so concerned about our well being they should improve the roads, synconise traffic lights, fix the hospital system, stop the drugs and illegals coming into this country, do something about the violence on the street , home invasions and STOP telling us that speed cameras are there for our benefit !
If speed kills then how come I didn't die when I did 250 kph years ago on my Yamaha motorcycle ???

Happy Travelling ( be it all too slow )

Gazz

"If speed kills then how come I didn't die when I did 250 kph years ago on my Yamaha motorcycle ???"

Depends where you were doing it. If it was on a designated raceway or racecourse and in a controlled race environment I suspect you would most likely be qualified to do so, and also are well prepared for an accident - and this would be the proper place for that type of activity. I doubt they let 'amateurs' onto race-tracks without the appropriate qualifications to race at those speeds.

In contrast, once issued with a licence there is little control over 'amateurs' taking risks that professional race drivers/riders woud never consider....and this takes place on our roads, amongst drivers with varying degrees of experience.

Unfortunately, our community is full of people who think that it is okay to take risks our roads, like driving at excessive speeds, running red lights etc, and it is these people who have encouraged State Governments to use a ' blunt' instrument like speed and safety cameras to bludgeon sensible drivers, simply because there are those who simply cannot exercise any common sense or self-restraint when on our roads........

Find a way to rid our roads of those people and there wouldn't be a need for speed and safety cameras...goodl uck with that one though!



Cheers, The Landy

Landy.
As a bike rider I have been to a few "open days" at the race tracks. These are days specifically for riders to go round the tracks at high speed. No training required. Just a riders licence. Was at a bike rally last year in Bathurst. Guess what they closed for us to use for half the day.

No problem with it happening on a race track......

Cheers, The Landy

Hey Landy - Im guessing by your 3 replies you want me to bite back ?
Firstly - I am not condoning speeding ! Secondly - my point about reaching 250 kph on my bike was that if "SPEED KILLS" I should have disintergrated into thin air by the time I hit 200 - speed doesn't kill - it's the sudden stop that does all the damage ! Many years ago when I was young and stupid ( as opposed to old and stupid now ) I regularly rode from Sydney to Adelaide and vice versa across the Hay Plain - quite happy to cruise on 200 kph when not near towns or in traffic - ABSOLUTELY NOTHING DANGEROUS ABOUT THAT AT ALL !
With 20 years plus of racing bikes ( both road and dirt ) I was in complete control and probably far safer to the public road user than the majority of 70 plus year olds who hit the country roads once a year with or without their caravans for long periods of driving !
Poor decisions are what causes most crashes but the government cannot collect revenue from that ! A number of years ago there were a couple of programs on the tv where a dozen of people of varying age and driving skills had their speedos covered with duct tape and were asked to drive in a 60 zone an 80 zone and a 100 zone while they couldn't see their speedo - guess what ? they all sat on 70 in the 60 - 90 in the 80 and 115 in the 100 ! This is the speed that people feel comfortable and safe with !
What I am trying to say is that in this modern day with safer cars and better roads than the past the government should stop trying to fool us that they are concerned with our well being ! IT'S ALL ABOUT THE DOLLARS ! Do some research and you will find that unfortunately there are almost as many suicides in this country as there are road deaths but the government can't collect dollars from those poor people !
At a recent private police function ( see reply 4 of 8 the wife ) where many of my friends are in the force, I asked 11 of my copper mates do they think the hype about safety on our roads is about safety or revenue and 7 replied "revenue" and the other 4 diplomatically declined to comment !!
What does that tell you ? I own and run a small outback 4wd / motorcycle tour company and have clocked up close to 5 million k's in and around this big brown land without getting close to having an accident - mainly because I can drive SAFELY at 20 over the limit while others are dangerous at 5 below the limit !
Maybe you are jealous because owning a Landrover you can't reach 130 kph with all the sidchrome tools you need to carry in the back when you travel more than 150 kilometres from the city !!

All the best Landy

look forward to having a beer with you somewhere in the bush, but remember, I will be there a day before you !

Cheers

Gazz

if your wife really had been in the force for over 30 years then she would remember before there were speed limmits and she would be able to tell you thats utter rubish

she would know speed limmits wernt brought in just for fun because all these people "concentrating" at ihgh speeds were dying in record numbers depite far far less cars on the roads

Dear Get Outmore - not only can't you spell you can't read as well !

My wife signed up in 1982 ( before we met ) so I'm guessing there's no point getting you to try and do maths as well as read and spell. There have been speed limits in this country for over 60 years and they went metric on the 1st of July 1974.
Check out the National Motorist Association of Australia website - article on highway limits - since setting a maximum speed limit of 130 kph in 2007 Northern Territory's road deaths have INCREASED. Also in overseas countries where the speed limits have been increased the fatalities have DECREASED by approximately 20%. Not sure about you but you but I think if fatalities on our roads decreased by 20 % that would be fantastic !!

I suggest you get out more


Cheers

Gazz

speed limmits on the open road were introduced around 1973

they copper had a public forum in town where he explained them both in MPH and KPH

and as I said it was done for a reason

OK I was going off of memory there, research shows they were introduced
in Victoria 1971,SA in 1974 (what I was referring too) and NSW 1979

and these stats show they were introduced to combat spiralling road toll

road toll stats

and after they were brought in the tollstabalized and FELL despite more and more vehicles on the road

so instead of tlling me to get outmore

howabout listen and learn something

Following is an extract from a report on Road Speed Management produced in part by the World Health Organisation with contributions from other agencies.

You can read this part of the report here Speed Report - WHO

I didn’t write the report so I have no intention of debating it or defending it.... I’ve posted as a matter of interest given the topic and views raised and to give some balance to the ‘speed is safe argument’.

Cheers, The Landy

Quote

1.1.3 What factors contribute to speeding?

There are many reasons why individual drivers speed. Travelling at higher speeds
offers the immediate ‘reward’ (as a perception, if not in practice) of a shorter
journey time. This benefit is reinforced every time a driver undertakes a journey and travels above the speed limit without any adverse consequence. Importantly, while speeding is involved in a very high percentage of serious and fatal road crashes, from an individual driver’s point of view, the chance of having a serious crash as a result of exceeding the speed limit is quite low, so the speed-crash threat may be less of a consideration by drivers compared with the speed-penalty threat.

The circumstances of individual trips can influence a driver’s choice of speed. For
example, if the vehicle is owned by an employer, the driver may be tempted to drive at higher speeds. When an individual is under pressure or feels the need to rush, unsafe speeds may be selected. Sometimes drivers and riders speed just for fun.

Drivers will frequently claim that they were unaware of the speed limit, hence the need for adequate signs, even though ignorance is no defence. Importantly, some researchers believe that people always tend to optimize the level of risk behaviour they engage in, such that they choose to drive faster on ‘safer’ roads, especially if they perceive little risk of enforcement activity. Others (21) have found that driving fast gives a sense of thrill or achievement.

Most drivers consider themselves above average in terms of skill. A number of surveys conducted in various countries around the world (21) demonstrate that up to 90% of drivers think they are an above average, low-risk driver. For that reason, drivers believe they can travel above the limit and not place themselves at high risk. In any event, many regard the limits as arbitrary and do not fully understand the greater risks associated with even small increases in speed.

Additionally an important factor in many countries is pressure that is applied by
fleet managers and employers to be more productive (i.e. drive faster) while public transport operators and the drivers themselves come under pressure to stick to challenging timetables, and even race to pick up passengers and goods.

End Quote

Dear Landy and Get outmore
I have nothing but the best interests of the motoring public at heart here. Both of you with your single minded attitudes obviously haven't read my follow ups properly or read the National Motorists Association of Australia's report on "highway limits" where it has been proven time and time again in Australia and overseas that reducing the speed limit on the open road INCREASES fatalities and where the speed limit has been increased a drop of 20% in fatalities has occurred ! Isn't it a good thing to reduce fatalities by 20 % ??
Glad I don't go on tour with you blokes coz I'm guessing it would be like camping with mannequins !!

Happy and safe travelling to you both and hope you don't get hit by an inattentive driver changing a cd or reading a map while doing the current slow open road speed limit !!


Cheers

Gazz

Hey Gazz

I’m not sure why you have shown the aggression or engaged in the personal type attacks and insults evident in your posts as I have shown you every courtesy in both of my posts. If you read my original post, and the follow-up I made earlier today, I have not criticised you in anyway, despite the fact you left yourself open to criticism.

The post I made earlier today provides reference to studies that present quite a different view to yours and includes statistical evidence to back the research. I’d encourage you to read it if you have a genuine interest in the subject. But as I said before, I’ve no interest in debating its contents and you would be best to do that with the author, should you disagree with its contents.

But I'll say this, you talk about riding bikes at 200 kilometres per hour on gazetted public roads, seemingly with indifference to other road users, and in the next breath you are telling us that you have nothing but the best interests of the motoring public at heart. It looks like a great contradiction to me, and I suspect too many others also, but so be it......

Kind regards, The Landy

Dear Landy -
Please accept my sincere apologies if you have been offended by my previous
( in my opinion ) light hearted comments ! ( see having a beer with you in the bush ) While I did take the time to read the article 1.1.3 you mentioned, it contradicts other articles I have read and studied over the years - including the one I mentioned above. There are obviously 2 ways in which a subject can be viewed and 2 sides to every story. Let's not continue with this never ending debate.
The point I am / was trying to make, that you , and others didn't seem to pick up on is that some people CAN drive and there are others who THINK they can drive.
I have been in vehicles with people doing 90 kph in the 100 zone and they are FAR MORE DANGEROUS to be with than others I have been with doing 120 on the same road.
I'm not suggesting that everyone cruises on 200 across the Hay Plain - I did say I was young and stupid - but I will also say that there was absolutely NO traffic in either direction each and every time this happened and with my riding skills was EXTREMELY SAFE !! Even today my wife says she would feel far safer being a passenger in my car or on my bike at 200 kph (should it ever happen ) than she does with half the people she drives with today at 100 kph.

With all the laws and restrictions in Australia today we are breeding brainless muppets who can't think for themselves - warning labels on hair dryers "do not use while having a shower" - warning labels on sulphuric acid bottles "do not drink contents as it could kill you" etc etc These same muppets are the ones sharing our roads with you and me and are becoming robots because they are trained not to THINK for themselves ! See inattention above.

With almost a ratio of 1 to 1 ( road fatalities / suicides ) in this country don't you think the government should be spending the same time, effort and money on preventing these uneccessary deaths ? The reason they don't is that it doesn't return income like lowering speed limits and doesn't get the television coverage to make them look good ! With the ever increasing population and the way the "demerit system" ( original topic ) is designed, they know that people will keep driving at their natural, safe comfortable speed, ( which is 10 to 15 over the limit ) pay the fines, on average, twice a year and still be able to keep their license ! $$$$$$$$

Once again apologies to you ( and get outmore - coz I'm sure he will have another say ) - I don't know you two and obviously you don't know me and my sense of humour so there is / was nothing personal !

I am just a bit passionate about this subject !!

When you have clocked up nearly 5 million kilometres in and around this country like I have you see thousands of very very bad drivers on the road and unfortunately Landy - 95 % of them are the ones sitting on or under the speed limit !


Cheers

Gazz

"200k on the Hay Plain", ever seen a bike rider hit a roo doing over 100k Not pretty.
Cheers Dave..

G'day Dave

Bit late to be joining in on the debate but I will reply anyway ! Have you read all the replies and all the articles mentioned or are you just joining in with your ignorant views ?

YES - not on the Hay Plain though - but I have also seen a rider killed by a woman who at the speed limit did not see a stop sign and killed him on the way to his 21st birthday ! I have also seen a rider run over by a fully laden tip truck get squashed to a pizza with the ENTIRE contents of his helmet stopping on the other side of the road when it hit the gutter - once again at the speed limit ! I have also been the first on the scene to 2 suicides ( won't go into graphics there ) What's your view on suicide ?? See above ! What would you say to all the motorcycle riders killed by drivers who say " I didn't see him " while doing the speed limit - once again caused by inattention - see above !

I myself have hit the bitumen on numerous occassions ( all bar 2 ) by other drivers not paying attention to what they are doing ! The 2 get off's I had were my own fault because I was not paying attention - see above cooments - inattention - THE BIGGEST CAUSE OF CRASHES ON AUSTRALIAN ROADS !

I'm guessing by the non lateral thinking people who have posted replies here that you would all be happy to see the speed limit in each Australian capital city reduced to 25 kph with a maximum limit of 50 kph on the open road ???? Maybe 60 kph on the Hume Highway if your vehicle is fitted with high visible fluorescent lime green bumper bars front and rear and 4 flashing amber lights on the roof !!

Something has to be done about road fatalities ( and suicides ) but reducing the speed limit IS NOT THE ONLY SOLUTION !!!

Apologies to you in advance if you were offended by any of my comments !

Must go now as I have just finished my 4th bottle of cabernet savignon and have to pick the missus up from her shift


Cheers


Gazz

It's interetstng to see you have commented on 2 people being tragically killed "at the speed limit", if they had been going slower they may still be alive today?

Unfortunitly it is a fact of life, that regardless of the speed there will be deaths. I know of people killed doing under ten kph, and at the two hundred mark. While there are arguments for and against speed the fact will always be the same. If there are vehicles on the road/air/water inevitably there will be deaths. It's not so much speed limits that need to be changed, it's the whole picture. Better education, more policing, improved attitudes, ban mobile phones dvds etc while in the drivers seat. But sadly, while there is money to be made, changes will be slow in coming. If at all.

Gazz,
As I didn't give any "ignorant views" or comment on rights or wrongs of speed or speed limits I find your comment unjustified, You seemed to think it was safe to do 200k across the hay plain, I've driven trucks across there hundreds of times and know that skippys can come out of nowhere and to hit one at that speed would probably be fatale. That's the only comment I made.

Dave..

G'day Dave

Sorry mate - wasn't having a go ! Apologies !

I am /was getting a bit frustrated at the severe lack of lateral thinking people in this country ( not suggesting you either ). Seems to be a number of people who post replies here on this fantastic website without actually reading everything before commenting. As nearly all my comments made on this subject have said I am all for doing things to reduce the road toll in Australia but obviously just reducing speed limits is not working !
If you spend 2 days trying to put a square peg in a round hole and it still doesn't work TRY SOMETHING ELSE ! This has been my point all along but the majority of people seem to think that lowering the speed limit IS the only thing to do !

A good friend of mine who runs a couple of businesses virtually 24 / 7 on the internet said that it is very difficult to get ones thoughts from their head thru their fingers onto a keyboard and into a computer and come out the other side with the receiver understanding the manner and spirit in which the sender intends - often the receiver will interpret the message in a different way than was intended and get offended - this has obviously happened to me on more than one occassion just on this topic. If you and all the other good readers of this site knew me personally you would of all just p%#@^d yourselves laughing and said hay - that's Gazza for ya !!

No perssonal attacks intended on you or anyone else on this site !
Apologies again to you and all the others I may have upset !!

Everyone is different and some people are a bit more sensative than others and quite a few others over sensative !!


All the best Dave and happy travelling !!


Gazz

Ps I reckon I have cleaned up more emus crossing the Hay than skippy's in my roughly 70 to 80 trips across - gotta love ARB steel bullbars don't ya !!

Apologies accepted,
I agree with most of what you have said, Dropping speed limits on most roads doesn't work because with a lot of the accidents the drivers are doing way over the posted speed limit, Appin road is a prime example been 100kph for ever and a day, A few fatal accidents where cars were doing well over the speed limit so they drop the speed to 90k, Still more fatals so drop the limit to 80k, I haven't been there for about 6years but there are still fatales on that road and I don't know what the speed limit is now probably walking pace. As for speed cameras saving lives that's a croc of ****, Urunga mid north coast has a fixed speed camera in the town and the new camera cars parked on the southern side of town nearly every day but there has been about 4 fatales in about 5 weeks there so I don't think the cameras saved any lives there just made revenue from a few.

Cheers Dave..

Hi Honky,
"Speed fines on open roads are is only a tax"
Got that right.
Now, wouldn't it be nice to hear of motorists being taxed for traveling to slow.
EG: you have a high volume roadway, 100-110k limit, several lanes wide, and some idiot sits in the middle lane traveling at 70-80k's. Surely these cameras can be calibrated for this.
Just a thought ;)

robertbruce,
great idea!!!!
i gave up replying to this thread as you only have to read some of the stupid comments posted.
only the Pro drivers and rev heads, and the old folks who think they are fantastic drivers who are invincible because they have had a license for 100 years, or can ride motor bikes at rediculous speeds without dieing etc etc are they ones who want more points and want higher speeds.
the government needs all the revenue it can get when you have the mentality evident above amongst road users. Money to pay for emergency services to attend fatalities has to come from somewhere.
It may be best for the irresponsible motorists to go and do a few km's over the limit, pay a fine and put another cop on the road!

you will never get through to some people.

until you are in a position to change the laws, you should stick to them, no matter whether you agree with them or not.

the vote would never show a true result as only the folks with a grudge against the rules would pay enough attention to vote. the smart amongst us would just accept the rules are there to protect us from idiots who wish to carry on like they are all racecar drivers.

whinge and rant all you want, proof is in the text above!

and sorry if that sounds like an attack at you, it isnt. so i apologise if that comes across like that.

no worries DOEY, i agree with your last paragraph.

It would still be interesting to cast the vote here in this forum tho'...
there would probably be enough of a cross section of travelers to get a good look at the depth of feeling....but even then there wouldn't be that many young german backpackers responding...

on Australian roads, higher speeds only make bigger idiocy

correction
IMHO, on Australian roads, higher speeds only make bigger idiocy