Are more powerful engines making our 4x4s less off-road capable

Submitted: Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 17:42
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There's been some interesting views expressed on a recent thread about "skinny versus fat" tyres and the fuel economy thereof.
However, that discussion did raise (sort of) the interesting issue of whether more powerful engines on modern 4WDs have resulted in better off-road ability or not.
The reason I say this is that one result of more powerful engines is that the vehicle is capable of higher speed.
However, to achieve this, the tyres have to have a much higher speed rating. In general terms, this means fatter tyres, lower profile, softer compounds, and thinner sidewalls.
Accompanying this has been the trend to larger diameter rims (so even lower profiles) and the use of alloys (easily damaged compared to steel rims). Alloys mean lighter wheels with a lower moment of inertia so faster acceleration and braking. Plus most say they look better with more pose value!
For reasons discussed in the other post, all of these factors (IMO) have a negative impact on off-road ability.
However, as Cackles has rightly noted in the other thread, everything is a compromise at some point.
If you want a good towing vehicle, you need (want?) good engine power and torque. However, you don’t really need high speed! Few people tow anything of size at 130 kph!
But if you do want “quiet” well-behaved on-road tyres that can sit at 150 kph with good fuel economy, then that becomes your key criteria.
However, if you want good off-road tyres, well then that’s another matter altogether...
Extra engine power (and even torque to a lesser extent) is largely useless off-road. The most important thing is the overall transmission reduction ratio, which, if anything, has been getting poorer over the years, as this allows for higher vehicle speeds and lower engine rpm so better fuel economy.
Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately), it is illegal for tyre fitters (or even yourself) to fit tyres to a vehicle that have a lower load or speed rating than the OEM tyres even if you never intend to go at those high speeds. Hence even if you say to yourself “I don’t plan going more than 130 kph”, but your original tyres had a 200 kph speed rating, it’s illegal to fit 130 kph tyres.
If you have fitted tyres that don’t meet the OEM speed or load rating, and you had a tyre failure (or even an accident involving stopping or steering issues), then you could be in strife with the constabulary, or at least with your insurance company.
It’s interesting to note the comments from one of the world’s most experienced overland expeditioners of modern times, Tom Sheppard.
Tom is an ex RAF test pilot who’s done over 100 000 miles (160 000 km) crossing deserts and overlanding over 40 years (he’s in his 70s now). He led the first coast to coast crossing of the Sahara Desert, and even since 2001 has conducted six SOLO (!) Sahara expeditions! He’s very experienced in serious deserts with both smaller 4WDs and 4WD trucks. He states in his book “Vehicle dependent expedition guide” that a power to GVM ratio of 30 BHP/tonne (he works in horsepower!) is plenty for even the Sahara. My Earthcruiser is 4.5 tonnes and 110 kW so has a ratio of 32.8 BHP/tonne, and even at 6 tonnes GVM (exactly the same vehicle can be purchased with 6 t GVM) has a ratio of 24.8 BHP/tonne. Compare this to the legendary Mercedes Unimog which has “only” 17 to 21 BHP/tonne (depending on the model), and the Pinzgauer 4x4 and 6x6 which have power to weight ratios of 30 and 24 respectively.
Ironically, the most capable 4WD vehicles have low power to weight ratios! Why? Because it isn’t important off-road.
By contrast, a new 200 series turbo diesel L/C wagon provides 195 kW (261 HP) for a GVM of 3300 kg or a power to weight of 59 BHP/tonne! A RAV4 has 81 BHP/tonne!
Even the oil companies (and Army) get their big trucks across deserts and the answer is basically the big (diameter, not width) tyres and low ratios not big engines.
However, now consider the L/C wagon’s gearing. Its 1st low overall reduction is a rather pitiful 34.1. The EarthCruiser’s ratio is 54.3! At a fast idle, the EC is doing only around 2 kph in 1st low. At peak engine torque (471 N.m at 1600 rpm) it's doing 4 kph.
However, the L/C 200 series has 285/65 R17 116H tyres (I think) which means they are rated at 1275 kg per tyre and 210 kph! This speed rating is needed because its big donk can get it up to that speed, at least theoretically!
It’s interesting to note that the earlier L/C 100 series wagon used 275/70R16 114T which are rated for 1180 kg per tyre at 190 kph. Note how the tyre width has gone up, the profile has come down, and the required speed and load rating has gone up from the 100 series to 200 series.
My EC uses Michelin XZL 255/100R16 which are rated to 1700 kg each tyre, but at only 110 kph!

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Reply By: briann532 - Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 18:24

Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 18:24
WOW...........
While I agree with you whole-heartedly, all those figures are doing my head in.

Certainly an intersting case you point out.

I can't for the life of me, figure out why anyone wants to travel so fast off road. You would be missing the whole point of being there.

By the way, I LOVE your rig.......

Brian
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Reply By: Member - barry F (NSW) - Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 18:38

Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 18:38
Jeez ,I never realised things were that complex! Enough to frighten the beejus out of you. Hey, its nearly enough to scare you off & to stay at home maybe? No never!! They say ignorance is bliss, so I think this old fellah may have to just remain ignorant!! LOL, & thanks for a very informative post. Happy & safe travelling, & yes I agree, looks like a real nice rig & set up you have there.
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Reply By: racinrob - Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 18:42

Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 18:42
Good post Bandicoot with lots of food for thought. I have crossed the Simpson solo several times with a 1 tonne slide-on on my LC tray back with no trouble running the original 7.50 x 16 Dunlop Road Trak Majors on split rims. They mightn't look as smick as wide mags but they do the job.
In the sixties there was a photographer by the name of Jeff Carter (?) who specialised in pics of remote Oz places, he travelled in a 2WD Peugeot 206 tray back with a canopy and went places that even today take some getting to in a 4WD. I think it was him who said, "A good driver in a 2WD can go places a poor driver in a 4WD can't". If he didn't say it he should have.

Rob.
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Follow Up By: rocco2010 - Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 19:04

Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 19:04
Gidday

Jeff Carter was also a Porsche fanatic and I remember reading many articles in magazines in the 70s about odd places he took his Porsches!

Cheers

Rocco
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Follow Up By: Member - Warrie (NSW) - Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 20:11

Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 20:11
Jeff Carter's obituary is here: http://www.smh.com.au/national/obituaries/a-herald-for-australias-working-class-20101105-17hes.html
Went to Foxground in 1978 where he had 16mm films of his adventures. Can I still remember Wild Country -not really , but Harry Butler's "In th Wild" still registers....W
Warrie

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Follow Up By: rocco2010 - Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 20:13

Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 20:13
Hello warrie

Thanks for that. i did not know that Jeff Carter had recently died

Cheers

Rocco
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Follow Up By: Allan B, Sunshine Coast, - Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 20:27

Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 20:27
Jeff Carter died just last month. Vale Jeff.

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Allan

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Follow Up By: Brian Purdue - Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 20:48

Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 20:48
Hairy Butler had a "Standard Vangard" when I first met him. He was then a schoolteacher.
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Follow Up By: ob - Friday, Nov 26, 2010 at 14:03

Friday, Nov 26, 2010 at 14:03
Brian,
If the Vanguard you are refering too was an old "Beetle Back" ute a mate of mine bought it as his 1st car back in the early 60's. Some how he found out it was owned by Harry Butler. It had a couple of lenghts of angle iron welded to the bottom. We spent many a weekend making new tracks in bushland near his families weekender. Well that was until he jacked the front off the ground and found out that the front tyres hung down so far the just about touched.

ob
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Follow Up By: Brian Purdue - Friday, Nov 26, 2010 at 18:14

Friday, Nov 26, 2010 at 18:14
That would be William Henry's. It went anywhere and everywhere. He then bought a SWB Land Rover and said it was not all that much better.
Brian
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Reply By: dereki - Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 18:45

Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 18:45
My 2c...

Yes all true, but unfortunately the more powerful engines and lower profile wider tyres are due to market forces. Most 4wds don't do off road and when they do its often down the beach or a dirt road. Not really off road. I never get truly off road... well.. maybe once or twice, but thats all.

To sell cars they have to statistics that are a little better then the competition. We have 10 more kw then the other brands... etc. Bigger wheels bla bla bla.

This means that over time 4wd's become softer and softer to meet the masses. Look at the new Patrol for example. Huge engine, independent suspension etc.

At least the GU and 70 series are still being made to cater for the farm/mining/construction market. Toyota have re-released the 70 series GXL wagon as well, so they seem to acknowledge that their newer 4wd;s are getting softer and have back filled with a more "off road" vehicle.

D
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Follow Up By: mikehzz - Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 19:44

Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 19:44
A lot of the time now the bigger rims are required to clear the brake calipers such as the new Discovery 4. Rims have to be 18" to get around the brakes. You have to run low profile tyres in that case and yes, off road ability will suffer so that you can pull up your high powered 3 tonne monster. Mike
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Reply By: Notso - Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 18:51

Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 18:51
Ah well, I learnt to drive in Series I and II Landrovers and 6WD Studebakers. I don't reckon I'd be game to take a modern vehicle into some of the spots we took them.

Not a lot of power in this lot but very low range.

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Follow Up By: Notso - Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 18:52

Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 18:52
Actually I should have said with the exception of some specialty vehicles like the Mog
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Reply By: Member - Boobook - Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 19:40

Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 19:40
Bandicoot,

I think one of the major parts of your argument is wrong.

"it is illegal for tyre fitters (or even yourself) to fit tyres to a vehicle that have a lower load or speed rating than the OEM tyres even if you never intend to go at those high speeds. Hence even if you say to yourself “I don’t plan going more than 130 kph”, but your original tyres had a 200 kph speed rating, it’s illegal to fit 130 kph tyres. "

This is not quite right.

It is not legal to fit tyres that are lower than that stated on the tyre placard, or as specified in the manual, whichever is lowest. Nuthin' to do with the OE tyres fitted to the vehicle.

Also it IS legal to fit tyres with a lower speed rating than the OE tyres provided that speed is never exceeded and the tyre placard is modified or the maximum speed of the tyres is placed somewhere visible to the driver. So I am not sure what that does to all those calculations???



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Follow Up By: Bandicoot - Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 20:36

Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 20:36
OK, I've worked on the basis that the tyre placard (load, speed) fitted by the vehicle manufacturer matches the tyres actually fitted by the same manufacturer. Perhaps I'm wrong and if so, I stand corrected. Are you aware of any 4WD manufacturers that fit tyre placards to their vehicles that differ in load or speed ratings to the tyres that they actually fit when they sell the vehicles new?
With regard to your second point that "lower" speed tyres can be fitted to vehicles, I've checked on this and you are correct for 4WD vehicles that are less than 4.5 t GVM. However, the load rating cannot be reduced below that on the placard as far as I can see. There's no mention in the rules as far as I can see about any numbers in the vehicle manual; it's all based on the tyre placard.
At the end of the day, the tyre placard "argument" isn't really central to what I was trying to say, which is that more powerful engines don't add anything to 4WD off-road ability but, to the extent that they are pushing vehicles to higher overall transmission ratios (to get the top speed the engine is capable of, at low engine rpm) and higher speed rating tyres, are taking away from off-road ability.
This isn't a criticism of putting more powerful engines in 4WDs as such. I've owned many L/Cs, Patrols and others in my time. In terms of family vehicles, good road manners, towing, etc, they are a good option for the "majority".
My wife and I have 5 kids, so we've had our share of 7 or 8-seaters such as L/Cs etc in our time; with the kids now largely launched, we've now "downsized" to the EarthCruiser, which is a 2-seater! Hallalelujah!
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Saturday, Nov 27, 2010 at 06:51

Saturday, Nov 27, 2010 at 06:51
Bandicoot, i think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the tyre rating system.

Manufacturers don't buy a OE tyre and then rate the vehicle to that. They engineer a vehicle then determine the right load rating etc. THEN they purchase the cheapest tyres that meet or exceed the vehicle's rating and matches their "ride" requirements, and purchasing policy.

They don't start the other way around. You will find many vehicles that have tyres rated above the manual or Tyre placard but often they match because the manufacturer wants to buy the cheapest possible tyres.

Your whole argument seems to be a circular one that is soley designed to support your ownership of your vehicle, even if you have to insert home made facts.
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Reply By: Trevor R (QLD) - Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 19:58

Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 19:58
"Few people tow anything of size at 130 kph!"

You don't know Ross H very well do you? that bugger is mad as a cut snake even with his camper in tow.

Not sure how you can draw a comparison between the EC's gearing and a new Cruiser? Were they intended for the same use or something?

Whilst a lot of what you say is true about vehicles having higher HP and less offroad ability, it is being done to cater for the majority. If you want to be in the minority and need the low gearing then wouldn't you have a whole lot more capable vehicle if you were to lower the low ratio of one of these "high HP" modern vehicles compared to an existing low ratio old school clunker?

Take my GU, it has 186 BHP for 3.3T GVM (56 BHP/T) does this make it less suitable for offroad work than the old G60 or FJ series Yotas? Did I forget to mention with it's 3.7 crawler gear ratio I imagine most things seem easy in this for a reason. Because IT IS WAY MORE CAPABLE and suited to things like cape york than the old FJ's that struggled their way to the top many years ago. The GU has a final drive ratio of 61.99:1 and will crawl all weekend anywhere I point it but it will just as happily drag the mobile roadblock I call a caravan up the freeway at whatever speed I choose to sit on (even following Ross H if I choose hehehe). As you said originally, compromise.

If you need low gearing by all means purchase a vehicle to suit but if you are like the majority of us and need a vehicle to run the erins during the week and then turn into a play thing on a weekend then just modify the more suited vehicle of the majority of your needs to suit the minority of your wants.

Good topic and thanks for sharing your thoughts. By the way I think the EC looks great too.

Regards, Trevor.
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Follow Up By: Ross H (QLD) - Saturday, Nov 27, 2010 at 23:22

Saturday, Nov 27, 2010 at 23:22
I was a happy law abiding citizen until I was shown the ways of the dark side
following THE KING TOAD to the SA gathering one year.
Just don't mention fuel economy..LOL.

Rossco
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Reply By: _gmd_pps - Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 20:16

Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 20:16
First of all 130kph or more is not an issue in Australia unless you ignore the speed limits or are in the NT and can argue your case when you are stopped.

You are talking Jap here mainly ??

Let me give you a few figures:

My truck 5.16T GVM and 10T GCM is a 4x4 with currently 400hp (500hp soon), sitting on 255/85 16 AT (or 215/85 -16), going at 110kph with an aggressive cruise control (full acceleration when needing to get up to speed and early acceleration on hills).

I was towing a 2t boat from Perth to Newcastle last week. I left Perth Wednesday afternoon and delivered the boat Sunday afternoon. A couple of hours later I left for Sydney to pick up some stuff. I left Sydney Monday afternoon 2pm and arrived back in Perth yesterday evening (Wednesday) 11pm.
I drove 8450km and averaged 20.5 with the boat and 16.2 without the boat including 300k dirt road from Norseman to Hyden. On the way back from Sydney I had 400kg panels on the back and a Kayak on top.

The power of this truck makes it both very capable in the sand and mud and also extremely comfortable to drive towing or not.

I can pass anything uphill towing or not and it is very quiet also on the 255/85 - 16 MT KM2 which I just put on. (Had the old BFGs MT on also and the difference in fuel consumption is more in my foot than the tyres).

There is other criteria than power to make a good 4x4 all round vehicle. For me this dually truck performed flawless in any terrain so far.

If you only know Japanese 4x4 you can not even start to imagine what it is like to drive a real comfortable and functional vehicle for other purposes than just dropping off the kids from kindergarten. I can drive 18 hours straight without getting worn out or tired in this vehicle (which I did - with a few small brakes), listen to great soundiing music (not just a tin sound without live - like in a LC) or talk on HF radio on a dirt road without the other party even picking up background noise (demonstrated just yesterday on the Norseman to Hyden track and recorded by on-board video).

Broaden your horizons before you get even further into such subjects.

have fun
gmd
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Follow Up By: Bandicoot - Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 20:42

Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 20:42
Sorry gmd, but I got lost in your post. Wasn't sure what point you were trying to make?? Are you arguing that more powerful engines have made 4x4 vehicles better in off-road conditions? I.e. that going from 400 HP to 500 HP is going to make it a better off-road machine? I've lived for 2 years in Canada and a year in the US and travel o/s extensively, so definately have experience with more vehicles than just "Jap". What sort of truck are you driving?
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Follow Up By: _gmd_pps - Friday, Nov 26, 2010 at 10:39

Friday, Nov 26, 2010 at 10:39
Exactly, the more power (torque) the better.

I used to drive Unimogs and 4x4 15t trucks in the military (compulsory where I was born). What is so legendary about it ? They are a piece of junk, sway from one side to the other with a canopy on the back (communication unit with HF and antennas), roll easy when you are on a hill sideways and when you get stuck in sand or mud the only reason they go reasonably ok is because they have large tyres, which can be aired down a bit but not too much. Don't remember the rim size but it was at least 20' but the aspect ratio wasn't that high. They could not really handle "large" tyres that well because they were just lacking power.

The short wheelbase is good for climbing but it is very uncomfortable on the road and the cabin is even worse than most Toyotas or Isuzus for that matter.

I drive a GMC Sierra HD3500 SLT Dual Wheel Crew Cab K series registered as an NB2 truck with beefed up steering, front (double shocks) and rear suspension (airbags), andy many other additions.
For me the best vehicle I could find on the market and I leave the Unimog in the dust on the Simpson any time...

It is not the increased power which makes the vehicles less suitable for tough conditions, it is the general design and in my opinion the electronics they put in to correct driver incompetence.

I would not want to drive 255/100 tyres (aspect ratio too high) because when you air them down a lot they slip or bulge too much, but I guess you don't have enough power to push them off the wheels ... lol ...

I had 255/85 AT with 2 ply sidewall and boy they were soft at 24 psi when I had to go low at places. Warren beach and such places are usually ok with 32-35 psi for me (working pressure 65-70 psi) on the front and 28 or so in the rear.

have fun
gmd

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Reply By: Member - Warwick D (SA) - Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 21:09

Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 21:09
Greetings, the power to weight ratios that most interest me are the "loaded vehicle" to power ratio. These are very different. Once you put two adults (and kid/kids) in a Rav4, plus load, the real world power to weight ratios change significantly.
I do like your posting, it introduces a more analytical approach. I do actually agree with you. I hope my true 4X4 lasts me out, the very new ones are being made with a different marketing approach.
Warwick
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Follow Up By: Bandicoot - Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 22:53

Thursday, Nov 25, 2010 at 22:53
Warwick
The values quoted for the Landcruiser, Earthcruiser, Unimogs and Pinzgauers are all rated engine power (expressed as HP not kW) to rated vehicle "loaded" weights (i.e. GVM in metric tonnes). I didn't personally check the RAV4 ratio but just took the number from Tom Sheppard's book. However, I just went to the Toyota Aust web site and downloaded the RAV4 specs. It has 2 engine options, the 4 cyl is 125 kW (167 HP) and the 6 cyl (can you believe it!) is 201 kW (270 HP)! The GVM is 2100 kg, so the power to weight would be 79 for the 4 cyl and 129 (!) for the 6 cyl.
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Reply By: Robin Miller - Friday, Nov 26, 2010 at 10:49

Friday, Nov 26, 2010 at 10:49
Alloys ,low profile tyres etc clearly are less capable ,but its often made up for by more powerful engines , so if you are reffering just to the engines then they clearly make any given car more capable.

But you have to define capability - 30BHP/ton may be ok for some things and is enough to struggle through most situations espically if you avoid the hard parts.
Transmission ratio is largely unless in many senarios , I don't think we even needed low range at all on our recent Canning trip, sheer lack of traction is generally our limiting factor, except of course going down 30 plus degree hills.

Personnally I have had enough of cars that lack the power to get momentum to get up a no traction mudhill or seriously soft sand , or that don't have the energy to overtake saftely.





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Reply By: StormyKnight - Friday, Nov 26, 2010 at 19:12

Friday, Nov 26, 2010 at 19:12
People just want there 4WD's to be better onroad. Safer overtaking, able to stick to the speed limit up hills, a better towing experience.

Its always going to be a compromise......

& roads are getting better & better all the time....

All the 'best' tracks these days are being graded on a regular basis....

also HP helps compensate for higher gearing & road like tyres on sand for example.




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Reply By: Member - Captain (WA) - Saturday, Nov 27, 2010 at 01:16

Saturday, Nov 27, 2010 at 01:16
Have you driven the 200 in challenging off-road conditions? If so, then you you would appreciate just how useful 650Nm (>800Nm if chipped) of torque really is. Granted you may not always need the torque, but it sure is useful when required (or towing).

As for comparing the power to weight with a Rav4, just wait till they are loaded. Also, the 200 V8 TTD is the only cruiser I know of that has a quoted 8 sec 400m time (Europe spec - Toyota website). Its also why comparing papaer figures to real world figures can lead to a world of difference. On paper, a a 4WD Prius should suit us all!!!

I certainly agree about the OEM tyres, why have P rated tyres on a 4WD??? The first thing that is required is to at least replace with LT tyres (of the same LOAD rating - you can drop lower speed rating). I have the 17" BFG LT TA's and they are a big improvement compared to the standard tyres.

The gearing is not really an issue with the 6 speed auto, there is always more power/torque than you could ever really need and the V8 TTD engine braking is better than my previous manual GU patrol. But in case thats not enough, the downhill descent control makes short work off it (I know - electrics are not for the purists!)

And with the KDSS suspension, the wheel articulation exceeds a 2" lifted GU Patrol, not bad for an IFS vehicle.

I have owned 80's, GU's and now a 200 and the 200 is by FAR the better off-road performer straight off the factory floor. The 80 and GU need difflocks to make them close to the 200, but all need sidestep replacements to protect the sills. And when one starts to tow, well tere is simply no comparison -

While people can theorise all they want as to what is better, I have owned an 80, GU and a 200 and used them on and off-road, so speak from experience.

Cheers

Captain
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Reply By: Steve - Saturday, Nov 27, 2010 at 09:44

Saturday, Nov 27, 2010 at 09:44
just checked, my old '96 defender dual cab with 1414 kg payload, (which is 40% of GVW of 3500) has a 31.7 bhp/tonne rating and that is very close to the 4x4 Pinzgauer. I tow 2t+ and without upgraded intercooler and diesel/gas would struggle with that on those long hills but it's quite manageable as is now, although I have a couple of further mods in mind which should make it quite capable. Obviously down to individual needs and with some of these vehicles, $$$$$$$$$$
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