Fires, necessary or optional?

Hi Silkwood,

I don't necessarily need a camp fire every time I go camping as I regularly use the gas cooker but Its like having a beer I dont need it but its great to have one and creates a special atmosphere.

It kinda like getting back to nature and getting rid of all the "crap" parts of modern living (No phones, noTV's, No internet) just roughing it. I quiet often dont go somewhere if I cant have a fire (high fire danger periods excluded)

Cheers Wilko

At last someone with a similar view to our own!

We occasionally will have a smaill fire for cooking damper. We become really annoyed by campers who light massive fires with green wood and smoke everyone out - no thought for those who dont want their van full of smoke smell for days.

Some people seem not to stop and think about the trees they hack into and kill, not to mention collecting firewood which is currently being used by native fauna for shelter etc. This subject really cranks my chain as we lived in a remote area which was often drought struck and anything that grew was treasured, to have people (not just tourists) come along and damage the ecology just for the sake of a fire was so annoying to say the least.

OK I have let off a bit of steam and feel better now and glad someone else shares our thoughts.

cheers

Sue

I agree not a great thing in the desert at all, count the trees when you drive up the Birdsville track or cross the Simpson next time.
I watched 3 x car loads with vans pull up on the Birdsville track,chainsaw in hand and cut down this poor little sapling that you could have knocked over.
It was the only tree for as far as the eye could see.
What was worse was they were heading South, where along the road lay tons of sleepers from the railway line.
In vans as well don't get that either.
No where now for the birds to land or nest, no shade for the stock just nothing now
Sitting around in the moonlight is stunning you be surprised what you miss having a fire,
Then theres the casualties of camp fire injuries and how many bush fires are caused by them. I f you don't think bush fires occur in the desert then your wrong. Two big ones Up above Birdsville 2 millon hectares , Hamilton station near Onadatta 126,000 millon hectares burnt for 9 days.

Hi Mark,

I tend to agree with Wilko that camping is an opportunity to get back to basics. Fires are part of that minimalist experience and I suspect appeal to some deeply buried part of us that harks but to much earlier ancestors. Fires provide a great opportunity to reminisce, to dream or just to be silent taking in the night. They are companiable, its hard to be lonely sitting in front of a fire with some glowing coals.

But I understand your point about wood becoming scarce especially in desert areas where growth rates are very slow. Yes more areas will have fires banned because of perceptions about shortages of wood. However many areas of Australia, including deserts, are regularly burnt often without human intervention (eg started by lightning strikes). Often the amount of wood and habitat burnt by campers is negligible in comparison.

We used to carry wood with us, but on an extended trip the little that you can carry from home is not worth the space it occupies. We often collect wood well away from regular camping areas and try to avoid hollow limbs because they are likely to be called home by by small animals. We also tend to leave wood behind us rather than throw it on the fire to burn unnecessarily. Our campfires usually look like this.Image Could Not Be Found

Having spent many years working on extensive revegetation projects, as well as many years camping I reckon I can see both sides of this particular debate.

But I totally agree with you that many fires are inappropriate, being much too big, being kept going for much longer than necessary (sometimes all day), and simply using more wood than necessary. If people would be content with a small fire most of the problems would disappear. And they would be much easier to extinguish properly.

Cheers,

Val

Hi Mark,

I also support you. We very rarely have a fire. When we do it is a small one, and we enjoy it.

The thought of anyone cutting down a living tree for firewood in the desert is just beyond me.

Min

Mate ,since I was a kid I have been camping with my father and camped at many secluded spots and always had a fire when in season, now as rules have been introduced some spots are out of bounds for reasons of abuse by the minority, now I can not take my grand children to the spots that I fished and camped at with my children their parents. The point i am trying to make is stop making silly rules witch effect all campers because of the minority and stop trying to change the Australia that makes this Australia, or pack up the camp put out the fire clean up the rubbish and bleep of to New York City , try lighting a fire there. This is not a attack on you ,it is just for the minority that stuff it up fore people doing the rite thing and yusing there common sense when in the bush. cheers.

"... given the fact most fires are inappropriate,"
Who's to say they are inappropiate Mark? Is it inappropiate to have a fire for warmth, for cooking or even for socializing? While certainly not essential that really has little to do with if they're inappropiate or not. I believe it is all to do with if fires in certain areas are sustainable in the long term. Come to the Vic High Country & see the millions of tonnes of dry wood available, an area I have no problem with large fires, even Parks allow 1m x 1m.
On the other hand in over camped places like the Murray River where people ring bark trees so they have wood next time & vacuum every dry stick off the ground, it's no wonder additional restrictions are put in place. I suppose the problem is it's a gradual process where individuals don't see the damage done. One example I've noticed is the timber being removed from around Pedirka on the way to Dalhousie & the Simpson Desert. From my first trip in the 80's to today, all the Ghan sleepers have been removed for a kilometer in each direction & the majority of dry standing timber stripped from around the creek. From one year to the next no one could tell but over 25 years it's clearly unsustainable.
"We've often observed people setting up camp, starting a blaze then walking off and doing other things! Why?" Because obviously they want hot coals to cook tea on ;-)
Cheers Craig........

i guess camping is something we most certainally dont need to do, there is no justifyable reason or point in doing it as it does damage to very fragile areas and most people seem to want to camp in national parks and other places that are set aside because they are recoginised as needing protection .....
But .....
We all love to get away from it all and we ALL love to sit beside a nice campfire and have a beer (or wine, or rum) and dribble and yarn and just generally have a really good time, as long as we are reasonably responsible we will never stop doing it, just imagine camping without a campfire, how un-australian is that eh, every trip away is a celebration !!!!!!
best way to stop it is stop camping and tourists full stop with "more rules" ........
Well that is the way i look at it, dont like it stay at home (((smile))))
Cheers Joe

When out camping last year in outback Queensland I lite a small fire for cooking. On this particular day I decided to teach the kids how to cook on an open fire. (two nine year olds).
Within half an hour I had a couple abusing the #$@ out of me for burning wood. Eventualy they left, but as a last comment they had to hurl a comment about kids cooking.

I have no problems for a fire as required. Cooking, warmth, etc It's when you have a large fire for maybe only one person I think is more a problem. If your with a large group, fair enough.

BTW. Snags, spuds, and damper were very tasty cooked in the fire, by the kids.

..... then there is the people that throw stubbies & bottles in to the fire, what the hell are they thinking?

I am a self confessed pyromaniac, (not in a bad way). I love a good fire. I like it to be big enough for the group I am with to sit around comfortably and yet not so big that I have to sit back miles.

A couple of years ago I was travelling in a desert region with a mate who grew up on the land. At one camp site I built a fire to cook on. It satisfied the above criteria. We did some of our cooking on this fire and sat down to eat our meal. When we finished eating my mate got up and skull dragged a large dead woody weed onto the fire it was a great fire.

My concern was for the "damage" that this fire was causing. My mate explained that the woody weed should be burnt anyway because of its ability to propogate causing more problems.

Sometimes a big fire is not only good fun but good for the environment.

Having said that a campfire is not "essential". many a good night has been spent sitting in the bush watching the stars un-deminished by the light of a fire and sometimes it is just too
warm a night to sit beside a fire.

Duncs

Yep, this site gets GREENER evertime i stick my head in!

To actually read about is a campfire really necessary?

I was going to go full rant but its just not worth it.

Get rid of everything you own move to the bush and live under a tree, it will be less stressfull for some of you greenies!

Whats happening to this country?

Love a good camp fire.
Even bought myself a chain saw to take camping, saves swinging an axe.
Camp oven cooking on coals, nothing beats it. The kids help gather wood, help light it, we take a magnifying glass for the kids to try and light it with. The fire is never more than we need to cook dinner and then have a few beers around after.
We only ever use dead wood. Never cut a live tree down. If there isn't wood lying around a fire doesn't get started.

Mark,
You would like to think that the majority here and those that travel often would be doing the right thing. I know there is the element that go camping and would cut down any thing in sight for the sake of a camp fire, but thankfully I don't hang around idiots like that.
Cheers

Silkwood, A couple of questions spring to mind. 1. Do you & family members have a fire when you camp? 2. Have you ever sat next to a fire someone else has lit & maintained? 3. Have you ever cooked over an open fire? If answer is yes to any or all of these questions you are an accessory before during & after the fact. I have a fire as allowed by law...DSE & Parks law if anyone tries to put my fire out or wish to take me to task over it for no apparant reason I will loan them my long handle shovel, but only for a very short time. As for people who cut down green trees or sapling, throw cans & bottles onto the fire they are not Morons because they are idiots. You see morons have more intelligence than idiots. There are new rules & fines out for people that do not comply with the restrictions on camp fires & some of the offences are; 1. Have a fire more than a metre square & not in a properly constructed pit (hole). 2. Leave fire unattended. 3. Have or maintain a fire not complying with the criteria (Rules) as set out in the DSE & Parks guidelines. ie close to bushland too close to river & on it goes. I think the new fines start at about $360. You don't use opera house nets do you? They are also banned & can incur a fine due to the fact Platypus are drowning after being caught in them!!!

Gadzooks, now it's 'unaustralian' not to have a fire when you camp? Hardly. Everyone (well almost) loves a campfire to sit around and socialise but there are many times and places where it is impossible or irresponsible. Of course this doesn't stop some people (hopefully Explorozers aren't included among them). And, as we all know there are plenty of alternative fuels available for cooking if you are prepared.

Scavenging wood from SOME environments is borderline environmental vandalism (Easter Island is an extreme example of what can happen).The fact that the tree/log would have decayed/burnt naturally or 'someone else would have chopped it down or picked it up if I didn't' is an 'interesting' viewpoint.

So, Mark, my answer to your question is NO - a campfire, while often a desirable part of the camping, is far from essential. Good company and/or solitude/serenity are far more important.

Another way of looking at it is - would I give up camping if I couldn't have a campfire? Not on your Nelly.

Silkwood,
Does your house have wood in it?? Was it all platation grown?? When you have a fire or sit by a fire is plantation grown?? Do animals not live in platation grown timber?? Where is platation grown timber grown- on land once used by natural timber providing homes for milloions of animals. Do you cook on gas instead of open fires. Where does the gas come from?? How many animals homes are disrupted to get the gas??? What car do you drive?? When you go away camping do you have someone in front clearing the small animals out of the way so they don't get hurt or do they not matter????
I have no problem looking after our country but seriously how many rules do we need to live. Why not make the penalties for the idiots really heavy and let the rest of us get on with living. If you do want a fire go for it but leave the rest of us out of it.
I can't believe we are reading a post about this on a camping/travelling site. Lets get a big ball of cotton wool and rap everything up in it.
Everything we do destroys something and we should minimise the damage but let us enjoy life for a little longer.

Josh

I am an Australian, and it is my birthright to have a camp fire. This country was built around camp fires.

I go camping because I enjoy cooking and relaxing by a camp fire, with or without company. I will continue to do so as long as I am able. And the Greenies can go to hell !

Why not complain about bush fires? They are bigger than any camp fire I have been able to get going. And often caused by neglect or interference by Green mobs trying to save some never before heard of tree frog or similar.

As other respondents to this thread have commented .. "what is happening to my country".

Live begins when you get one!

Jack

'do-gooder greenie politically correct moron'
Yep, or Troll.

"Cheers, (from the almost the driest, least forested continent) "

Therein lies the rub Mark , you could have added , "and the least populated".


Fires are wonderful and a automatic must when appropriate for the circumstances.

As in all issues , there are those that abuse and the majority that do the right thing and extreme positions on either side won't help much.


In Victoria here our massive recent fire was caused by power lines sparking in high winds. A hundred years of campfires wouldn't cause as much damage
so should we ban electricity ?

Hi Mark

As they say, each to there own and my thoughts are different to yours, sorry. The first thing that we great ready when bush camping is a camp fire, for cooking and warmth. There is a very big difference from a camp fire to a bonfire!!


I think that you should get out more and travel to remote desert areas. They may be called a desert, but they are far from being barren, with more vegetation out there that you could ever believe.

Would you join my morning fire when it is minus 5 in the morning or would you do the right thing and sit back and freeze?


Stephen

When I go camping I must have a fire...there is no other option unless I am somewhere where you are not allowed a fire or they have a fire ban. I will teach my children about fire and how to cook on them.

I think a healthy/good respect for fire from a young age is very important.

The problem is that once you start calling for the banning of anything because of abuse by a very small percentage of the population, the other 90% who are usually responsible in their outlook and actions are the ones most affected, the other 10% carry on their merry way and nothing has been achieved. (and I understand you didn’t call for the banning of fires, but many wood)

We enjoy camp fires, carry a chain-saw for use on tracks that have fallen logs, and to cut fire-wood from fallen timber.

I’m sure we are no different to most that frequent this site when I say we do this responsibly, give consideration to whether it is appropriate to take the timber from the area we are in, and whether it is appropriate to have a fire suitable for our purposes. We get out in the bush because we love it, not becuase we want to destroy it, and this thinking always is at the fore-front of aything we do when out and about.

And let me say, sitting around a campfire, chatting, contemplating, dreaming, with family and friends is one of the most enjoyable things we look forward to on our trips. Sure beats the hell out of glaring into the abyss of 40 inch plasma.....

We need to stop penalising and thinking for the majority of Australians who are responsible in outlook and actions, we’ll never rid ourselves of the 10% who act irresponsibly, whether they are the hoons doing 120klm an hour in a 60klm zone, irresponsible four-wheel drivers ripping up (closed) tracks or campers that need a towering inferno to cook dinner.

It’s all about balance......

Anyway, that’s my couple of bob’s worth,

Cheers, The Landy

Interesting replies. Some seem to think they agree with me because I want to ban campfires. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, I don't. I regularly have a campfire where the circumstances permit and would not like to see campfires stop becoming part of our outdoor experience. One of my points was we will see more and more "no fires" areas, and this is true. At least part of the reason is that in some areas campfires have denuded the local area of fallen wood. In fact I go places where I used to see a lovely bush campsite and now only see a barren patch with the surrounding trees sporting broken or cut-off branches. There is much comment about "the others" who spoil it for the rest of us. We never see ourselves as the problem.

There are times and places where it would be almost stupid not to have a fire. Cold evening, great location, loads of fallen timber. Reality is, though, these times are not the norm. For the rest of the time a decision is made whether a fire is necessary and usually the answer is yes. I'm simply asking, why can't the answer be "maybe"? Whenever anyone brings something up that people disagree with, respondents trot out all the times where their perspective is right, without commenting on all the times it isn't. But of course, it's everyone else who is the problem.

Try this, when you have a campfire do you need to go more than fifty metres from the fire to gather your wood. If the answer is yes, you are probably having a fire in a denuded area. Either you have to do this because all the surrounds have already been cleared or the area doesn't support enough vegetation in the first place. If you do need to do this and still go ahead with your fire I don't see how you have any argument when the "no fires" sign goes up.

When studying Outdoor Ed we were taught to only burn timber no thicker than your thumb, because that's what the surrounding area could sustain. Now I'll admit I've broken that rule more than a few times, but knowing it has always made me stop and think whether the fire is appropriate. We don't have to have a fire at camp, many if not most of our camps are fire free, but we can do so often in the right circumstances. Not trying to ban anything, simply wondering why we have to have fires as an obligatory experience.

First prize goes to Craig (Crackles) for picking up on my rhetorical, unsupported "fires are inappropriate"" comment. You're dead right, who says? I will admit I wrote that on purpose to get a response. I actually heard it first from a friend who works for Parks Victoria and pointed out to him it was syllogistic nonsense. His reply was- it may well be, but that is the feeling of many in the National Park workplace. Point is, if that is how some see our campfires we will inevitably see more places where they are banned. That attitude is wrong, almost as wrong as those who say "No more rules" (what a stupid argument) or the even more fatuous "I've been doing this for years, my grandfather taught me, it's my right as an Australian"! I suppose this is the same group who jump up and down when someone says Uluru, rather than the "original name" Ayres Rock, without seeing the ridiculousness of the stance.

Two points- 1. If we continue to have fires as an essential part of the bush experience, regardless of whether they are appropriate for the area, we surely cannot complain when they are banned in many areas. It's not "those who won't do the right thing" that are the problem, it's us.

2. I don't understand why people who say they love the bush can go to a cleared area and then proceed to clear the greater surrounds just to have there fire. Surely you want to camp in a beautiful bush setting, not a clearing which looks like a bush carpark?

I suppose I'll get roasted for having an opinion. Here's an idea, instead of simply posting that more rules are the end of the world or it's your right or other such "ban the greenies" ranting, have a think about what you want to say and put it down as an argument supporting your case. It would make for a much more reasonable discussion. I guess some just like an argument.

Cheers,

Mark

for an old out back camper like myself. A camp fire is essential. takes you back to where you belong. many great inventions came from sitting round a camp fire.

Re Deserts: It all depends on where you are camping. You can't make a blanket statement saying they are good or bad. I see no issues with remote desert travel and using dead fallen mulga/gidgee to have a superb fire for cooking a roast in the camp oven.

But the issue comes with the deserts that are heavily used - Simpson Desert springs to mind, and areas adjacent to the commonly used tracks and features are badly denuded. A bit like Dalhousie was 25 years ago.

We like to carry our firewood from outside camp, so we don't denude the good camp sites. A drive of a few k's to collect firewood is no problem. Our Landcruiser has an empty roofrack and our TVan has a firewood carrier. Too many people I see out there have no way of carrying firewood. At some of our favourite spots in the GVD, we carry dead wood in and replace it in areas that are becoming denuded.

As for the populated parts of Australia - we often buy a bag of Bunnings firewood - its never very good though :-(

I think it was Robert Louis Stevenson who said "A fine meal without wine is like a day without sunshine".

I feel the same way about camping and campfires (well, the wine bit too).

Jim.

As a newly transplanted "australian" I fall back on the words of John Williamson, my favourite singer, in my favourite song:
"we must never let them take this life away, old stock routes belong to one and all, drovers, dreamers all agree, poets, aborigines, we have a right to light a campfire on the road"

We always have a fire in allowed areas and where there is a super-abundance of timber. Not conflagrations but just enough to warm, cook, boil the kettle, heat some washing water. To us, it's an integral part of our camping experience and we wouldn't consider giving it up. We're careful about what we burn and where we pick it up. I think one can get a bit too precious about habitat. Ask the victims of the Victorian Bushfires about the fallen timber that wasn't allowed to be removed from the roadsides. Equally, during floods a build up of timber can be a disaster. A friend in the country recently had their bridge destroyed because flood water washed loads of "protected" logs down the river. As it is a privately owned bridge no one is paying them for the damage. Ask them what they think of having to leave fallen timber. And then stand back.
Lou

Can you all stop calling it TIMBER.
You burn WOOD, You make things with TIMBER.
OK, That's off my chest now.
Cheers,

Carry on.
Image Could Not Be Found

In the area where i live (and in much of the south west), campfires in summer are totally banned for very good reason. Also like John and Val, we have had to fight a fire in a camp ground in the Kimberley started by a very foolish person who lit a campfire; in long grass, during the middle of the day, on a hot windy day; which were conditions that we wouldn't light any fire in a fit. If you grow up with bushfires, you learn the signs and the fear.

I agree with Mark than we see many camp fires which are large way beyond the need. We call them "Whitefella Campfires". A "Blackfella Campfire" is one which is small, but adequate to meet the need.

Motherhen

Hi Mark, Mark from Ballina here, do a bit of bush camping & agree that many thoughtless campers build these huge fires, dont cook on them, pinch every one elses wood, & sit 10 yards away from them coz they"re too bloody hot. We cured this.... built my own camp stove, 9kilo gas bottle, air vent, 3 legs, oven rods, grill, etc, etc..........minimal wood ( usually take our own ), perfect adjustable heat for cooking or hot water, no smoke, ash into drum under neath (no embers flying), got top with chimney & spark arrestor (for national parks if required), all fits into a crate on A frame........Check places, New England NP, Thungutti Camp Grounds.

Its un Australian not to have a fire and a firearm when camping!!!

Well I'll be sexually intercourced, I had the fortune to teach my 5 year old how to make a camp fire the Binjing way, I told him story on how to make a camp fire and he did so with ease, I then gave him the credit he deserved and let him cook munme ( Dinner) we had a great time and I doubt he will ever go camping withoutcooking on a CAMP FIRE again.

Hi Mark,

It seems that you have IGNITED a very interesting debate on this topic!

We love having a small campfire to cook our evening meal on and choose free camping and places where we are able to have one while travelling, staying out of caravan parks for this very reason. However we use minimal wood and we put it out soon after we finish cooking unless the night is very cold, or we have friends sharing it.

We would never use green timber, cut down trees or collect wood where it is prohibited to do so but have seen other campers do this even in National Parks.

So I guess we fall into the category of occasional users. We carry a 'Little Wombat' portable campfire/BBQ in which the fire is enclosed in an insulated firebox and off the ground so it leaves no trace. To date on this trip in Tassie ( almost two weeks so far ) we havent used it but are hoping for the chance to do so soon. I just love a slow cooked meal in the camp oven.

I agree that with increased numbers travelling that there is certainly a problem, especially in areas where there is limited wood to collect.

Cheers,

Heather G

After reading all the bad camp fire stories and it seems everyone has one are we sure it's a minority and not a majority. I would really like to see those heavily timbered areas on the Birdsville track mentioned ? So if you will drive for a couple km's for wood now in a few years when you have drive even further will it matter then. I agree that a campfire is nice in the cold but there are some areas that even ground timber that is far and few between maybe should be left alone and if you rely so heavily on having one don't go there. I reckon all there needs to be is a bit of thought on where your going and it seems those so hardened on the idea no fire no camp need to stay close to the timber or bring their own. There are so many alternatives why not open your mind to new things and maybe the fires should be left for those old stockman from the days gone by or when you are broken down. Get real on the loads of trees growing in desert.

Some mail order catalogues advertise a gizmo that enables one to make a brick size fire logs out of newspaper, presumably for log fire burners.

Would these bricks be any good on an open fire? If so, they would be an alternative to burning wood. Also being square shaped it would be easy to store in your 4wd. Just a thought. Regards G.T.