Social issues of owning a 4Wd

Submitted: Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 21:38
ThreadID: 8538 Views:2585 Replies:30 FollowUps:35
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I am not a 4WD owner myself, although I have worked in both a 4wd mechanic biz and at a 4wd wrecker in Toowoomba Qld (dead bleep s)
What I am writing about is to get a feel for what genuine 4wd enthisists feel should be done about the proliferation of 4wd's on city streets often driven by the unskilled and uncaring.
I have seen some unbelivable statements on other websites like "its other manufactuers fault that they don't build vehicles to witstand the force of a 2.5 tonne 4wd going stright through them"
Its our right to drive blah blah"
Sure, its your right, I'm asking, whats right?
Make 4wd licence a class of its own to make sure only skilled drivers get behind the wheel of what is in reality a lethal weapon on the road ( you can drive a big hole through most small cars)
Laws that say you have to be a member of a club to own one? Similar to firearms laws (which suck)
Any reasonable person would agree that 4wd's are far from the ideal vehicle for city traffic. They pollute, are difficult to park, block view of traffic to other drivers, "block bikes from lane splitting, thats without going into parts and running costs..I'm sure this will bleep off some people here but these are issues that I feel need addressing.
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Reply By: Billy - Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 21:49

Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 21:49
Separate licence and training required like bike. End of problem.All aboard!
AnswerID: 37351

Follow Up By: Brett - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 08:30

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 08:30
Now that is silly.

We are already over regulated now the last thing we need is another license.

This would mean I would need to be trained to drive my 4x4 even though I can drive a whopping big truck.

Would it be necessary for additional training to drive a F100 or 250 2wd?

We already have a National License system.

The problem isn't the vehicles it is the attitude of the individuals.
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Reply By: Member - Chris (SA) - Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 22:03

Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 22:03
It's hard to determine whether these topics are real, or just 'fishing' for the knee jerk response. The fact that 4wds are driven by the unskilled is in common with car drivers as well. It would be hard to justify a separate license until Tarago type vans, of similar size and ignorance, required one, or if the skills needed to drive on the road were significantly different for 4wds and cars. As yet they are not.
Bikes require different skills and awareness - ergo status quo.
As all vehicles are lethal weapons, justification of 'special' stuff for, in essence, a large car is, in my opinion, absurd and placed in the same bin as the push to remove bull bars to save pedestrians another 2 milliseconds of life before the truck hits them.
Concur that that my truck is not suitable for city driving - it doesn't get much
What vehicle doesn't pollute
What delivery van doesn't block the view.
The real issue is the jealousy of those that haven't got something to enjoy and wish all others to be as sad as they. Watch out for the laughter police!

Chris
<- 1996 Troopy, the best!
AnswerID: 37354

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 06:35

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 06:35
Well said Chris, as I read the post I was formulating a response and you said it.

All the bestLaterally Literal
Seriously Cerebral
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Reply By: Member - Des Lexik(SA) - Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 22:15

Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 22:15
bjsv650 Ok you'vebleepme off. Your full of crap.
Let's have a special licence then for those little buzz boxes that are screaming their pistons of at 80kph that forces everyone to overtake them when you come up behind them so suddenly or the Volvo drivers with their bowls hats in the back, or the twits who get half shot and scream around the back streets in the middle of the night, or the 15,000 other categries that I could come up with. This is a fairly free country and we have the right to drive whatever vehicle we choose without being more overgoverned than we already are. I can parrallel pak my 4by in places where most other drivers wouldn't even attempt to in the conventional vehicles. It's all about practice and training. I have no problems that people who drive a 4by in off road conditions should be trained to do just that but a special licence. No wayne cede malis
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Follow Up By: Brett - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 08:32

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 08:32
Good words.

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Follow Up By: Member - Al & Mrs Al (Vic) - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 10:54

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 10:54
Whoa Des....you're fired up...good on you..!

I drive my 4b with care and with confidence, but I'm smart enough not to confuse confidence with cockiness...I take care when driving of not only my vehicle but also of other's around me..I know my vehicle and can park it no probs..in fact easier than my previous vehicles that were small cars. I also, don't drive around with the view that I own the road just coz I'm in a 4b. The reasons I drive one is simply it's the best vehicle for me [us], and a damn sight cleaner than some of the other shiat boxes I see on the roads. Special licence...no I don't need one..but sure..for off road...I'd do some training no worries!

Lynnemo me impune lacessit





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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 08:23

Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 08:23
Now lets talk about the warning light for the spare wheel carrier... j/k Lyn we need some kidding with this post methinxLaterally Literal
Seriously Cerebral
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Follow Up By: Member - Al & Mrs Al (Vic) - Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 10:21

Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 10:21
Bonz..no need for warning lights..I have a buzzer fitted....much more exciting...nemo me impune lacessit





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Reply By: Mad Dog Morgan (Vic) - Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 22:21

Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 22:21
You are in the wrong forum. I suggest you try the womans weekly or womans day forums where the majority of shelias there have no idea about driving a 4bI may be mad but I'm not crazy
Hooroo
Ray
AnswerID: 37357

Reply By: Member - Tim&jan - Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 22:22

Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 22:22
good on ya chris whats next a licence to bleep in the bush,dont do this ,dont do that .its always a small wingin manority. wot happend to the dinki di ozzi? are we becomin the wingin pom not bloody likely.got to go bush get away from this crapgu bush basha
AnswerID: 37358

Reply By: Martin - Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 22:39

Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 22:39
Don't you just wish that you had a 4wd. But of course they're for the adventurous, open minded free spirits of the world and not for the annoying whinging little nit pickers who get up everybody's noses and can't spell.
I know we annoy the daylights out of you and I'm glad we do!!
AnswerID: 37360

Reply By: ExplorOz Team - David - Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 23:01

Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 23:01
I am sick of these sorts of posts I let the first one run it's course now I have just about had enough. Most of the poeple who use this site are in the category of people who love their vehicle and enjoy the outback and travelling. Why the hell do you think that all 4WD owners and drivers are irresponsible!

Are 4WD drivers ever compared to the hoon drag racing types that own the biggest V8 vehicles are are not happy unless the tacho is over the red line in the 50KM zone. How many deaths are caused by speeding vs 4WD. I can tell you that the biggest problem on the roads is speed (ask any cop). My bloody 4WD has enough trouble doing the speed limit. I also think the V8 fuel eaters with the peddle to the metal will produce more polution than most 4WD vehicles.

As for blocking the view - What about every people mover (Tarago type) or min van, light truck. Get over it we all deserve equal consideration on the roads.

What really upsets me is the irresponsible stupid ads the manufactures run on TV. With the all conquering 4WD vehicle that can do 150KM/Hr over everything, and nothing can stop it, hanging out sideways on the dirt and sideways up the sand hills, driving straight through water crossings without concern or care - what a load if crap - no wonder the TV watching public are concerned about 4WD drivers and vehicles. The producers of such crap do nothing more than give the 4WDers a bad name. It is these types of ads and media that are going to be the end of 4WD travel as we currently know it.Regards ExplorOz Team - David
--------------------------
Always working, not enough travelling ;-)
AnswerID: 37374

Follow Up By: John - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 01:27

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 01:27
David it's your web site so I guess you can say what you like.
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz Team - David - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 01:58

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 01:58
John,

I had a drink and toned down my post a little. John's comment was based on my original post which I have since edited.Regards
ExplorOz Team - David
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Always working, not enough travelling ;-)
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 06:37

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 06:37
Ahhhh David if only we all had that luxury of editing posts. I know a few words I would have eaten...........Laterally Literal
Seriously Cerebral
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Reply By: Member - Bob L - Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 23:01

Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 23:01
What Social issues?
What difference will a license make ? Ableepbehind the wheel remains ableepno matter what they drive. Thankfully most of them live in the Cities where unfortuneately they are more likely to kill some innocent bystander and walkaway unhurt.
Whats YOUR definition of a 4WD? - Come on Fella get a life.
You are correct in one thing, stupid comments like yours will bleep people off including myself and who gives a f**k about what you feel needs addressing anyway.
Don't bother replying.
Bob

AnswerID: 37375

Follow Up By: Member - Bob L - Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 23:06

Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 23:06
Gee David your quick on the bleep (Sorry)
Cheers Bob L

.
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Reply By: Dave ....Adelaide - Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 23:05

Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 23:05
( you can drive a big hole through most small cars)
and trucks and busses cant?????
AnswerID: 37376

Follow Up By: Dave ....Adelaide - Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 23:14

Friday, Nov 14, 2003 at 23:14
oh i forgot something...........On Friday, November 14, 2003 at 20:38
bjsv650 posted about Social issues of owning a 4Wd - (PostID: 8538)
The post

I am not a 4WD owner myself,
THANK F*** for that
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Reply By: Member - Matt- Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 00:43

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 00:43
Mate, you ask, should 4WD be a licence of it own to make sure only skilled drivers get behind the wheel. Does this mean all the unskilled drivers get to drive sedans?
As a truckie that drives in metro Perth I'm discusted with the way some people drive. I can honestly say that AT LEAST once a month I'll save some ones life, it seems they want to go under the front of the truck. Everyday, while driving a vehicle that will not stop in 50 metres, you are reading the drivers in front of and around you, always checking your mirrors to see if there is still an escape route on one side, just incase so and so in front of you does what your thinking/hoping he won't do
I believe that if the standard needed to obtain a drivers licence was raised to a truly competent level, where ALL road users were truly skilled, there would be the biggest back log of failed drivers all complaining that it's too hard... "All I wanna do is go to the shops" yeah, and cause some accident along the way, totally oblivious to your surroundings.
The only reason people bitch about 4WDs is that at the end of an accident, generally a 4WD comes off appearing better, with the Laser squashed underneath, how quickly they forget to see that the Laser probaly pulled out in front of on coming traffic
If we all drove the same car we'd still have the same problem

Learn to drive
AnswerID: 37381

Follow Up By: Martin - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 22:23

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 22:23
Matt I'm glad you're good drivers over there. Pity you couldn't teach the Victorian truckies to drive. It is so common to hear of truck accidents on our freeways. One morning recently two trucks collide on a freeeway and completely blocked - that's right TWO TRUCKS COLLIDED on a FREEWAY!!! I mean - how could they possibly not have seen each other??? They also regularly drive under bridges with loads that won't fit. We have two railway bridges in South Melbourne and in Caulfield that have been hit literally hundreds of times by high loads. It always amazes me and just proves that a licence is no guarantee that the driver is alert and has common sense!
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Follow Up By: chrisfrd - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 22:28

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 22:28
Agreed!

The PROBLEM with most is that they have never really thought as to what concequences that your actions/inactions have. I have been involved in 2 horrific crashes. One crash was human error, the other was due to the fact that the driver died at the wheel, causing a crash.

Most people never understand the consequences of being involved in a crash. The reasons are fairly simple.. They were never exposed to one!

Firstly - NEVER called a crash an accident. It's total bull bleep ! The car/truck didn't do it "accidentally", it was a human error, either by driving the vehicle incorrectly, or by not maintaining it to a satisfactory standard, or it was due to involentary incapacity of the driver. Other people become the victims of the crash, started by somebodies inability, lack of skill or disregard to safe vehicle operation.

The first thing that the Government should do is MANDATE a high level of driver skill. Get them familar with terms such as Road-Space, (the distance between you and the vehicles around you), "The system of Car Control", (Course, Mirror, Signal, Brake, Gear, Mirror, Action..). Get them to drive SMOOTHLY..... Make it second nature to drive with care and attention. Get them to drive by reading ahead, 30 seconds, 20, 10, 5 and so on. Get them trained so that they can do a commentary of their drive! Then they are truely skilled!

Then, you start banning for life, all of the people that can't pass a driving test by the third attempt. (When I taught people how to drive, this would consist of people mainly from the asia-pacific region, that have no comprehension or care for regulations and that frequently fail their licence exam!) These would be any person that has drunk-driven and been caught (you should know better!) or causes a culpable driving death, or one that has no true understanding of the responsibilities of driving a car.

I have a decked-out Nissan Patrol... It's now weighing in at 2.9Tonnes. With the camper-trailer and all other goodies, it sits at 4.9Tonnes. I drive it like an artic, being very careful not to collide with people who overtake on the left, only then to slam-on their brakes to negotate a turn, overtake and then slow-down, cut me off at a right-of-way...... The list is endless....

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Follow Up By: Old Jack - Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 18:00

Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 18:00
There was a semi parked on it's side at the roundabout at the end of the F3 freeway at Berisfield where it joins the New England Hyway. The Professional driver parked his rig on the outside of the roundabout neatly on it's side. This of course was no Accident the truck just obayed the laws of physics! it simply rolled over! with out pre-empting any police accident investigation, trying to go too fast while turning on a roundabout is a common cause of roll over of all vehicals!

Poor fellow would have been in for a change of undies!the few thousand vehicals that travel past at a snails pace due to the road block it caused probably wanted his blood too..

road rule number one :- Give way to size!
number two:- every action has an equal and oposite reaction ie the harder you push the harder something will push back!

on a lot of open cut Mine sites the 200 tonne Haul trucks have right of way!
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Reply By: Member - Bob - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 01:03

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 01:03
I think it is a reasonable question. We have special licences for people who drive large trucks, taxis, buses etc. I don't mind th concept of having a special licence to drive a 4WD. In fact I would like to see special licences for driving on highways, special licences for driving over 60 kph. etc. Drivers licences are far too easy to obtain. Do you know anyone who wanted a licence but couldn't get one? No. Even the most incompetent klutz is out there driving around waiting to prang into you or run over your kids. In my scheme the basic licence would entitle the holder to drive a small passenger vehicle at 60 kph on some urban streets with no passengers. Beyond that would need additional training and skills. Like skid pan, high speed braking etc. What a great way to get half the cretins off the road. For those of us who take our driving seriously it would represent but a minor inconvenience.Bob
AnswerID: 37383

Follow Up By: Eric from Cape York Connections - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 06:52

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 06:52
Bob that all sounds good I like it.
All the best
EricCape York Connections
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Follow Up By: JohnR - Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 17:18

Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 17:18
Bob, you are pretty right in so many ways.

A licence for levels of control you are expected to be able to use. It is always unfortunate that so many that have driven around towns cannot get an appreciation of what it is like to drive on gravel or part gravel that we are all using in country areas. Some will just not get off the centre of the road due to their lack of confidence. "City drivers" is the call in our car.

I do like the thought of grading people to their level of skill and expereince, as I like the way the French do for haveing a diferent speed limit in rain to fine days where visibility is impaired. There is no recognition in any event for what people have experienced and indeed government is very poorly served by the current conditions.

The main problem is then that people misuse any skill they learn sometimes, like the fellow who decided he would like to run his wide tandem trailer along the aluminium skin of my then 4by. My skill surpassed his I guess as he looked around to see I had gone off the Tulla Freeway. Yeh he was in a Holden ute. All about justice in social responsibility.

Social responsibility is like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.
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Reply By: ogray - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 05:33

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 05:33
bjsv650,

I absolutly refuse to give you the satifaction of replying to what is nothing but an attempt to get a bite. Well mate this is one little black duck who flatly refuses to give you the pleasure. Oh! and another thing......
AnswerID: 37387

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 06:39

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 06:39
but but but you DID replyLaterally Literal
Seriously Cerebral
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Reply By: Eric from Cape York Connections - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 06:46

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 06:46
I had better put my 2 bobs worth in I drive a van and a 4wd so I must be a pain in the butt.I think the thing that bjvs650 is on about is the 4wds that never ever have the intention of going off road or toureing and is more like a accsesery like a hand bag or fancy cloths. Remember when you were young every body had a yoyo or similar same deal they are a fashion.I have freinds that own 4x4s and never will or think of taking them off road. I have a freind who gave me a bagging for owning a 4x4 and called me a bush stuffer he now owns one . I took him out shortly after he bought it on a few tracks that was about 6 years ago and not been off road since.
I guess as they say to each his own .I cant under stand why any one would whant to do or have lots of things but its none of my buisness. I think if your going to worry about things like driving skills etc get a campain going for teaching young drivers of all makes and modles how to drive properly.
All the best
Eric

4x4 tag alongs to the cape and beyond

www.capeyorkconnections.com.au Cape York Connections
AnswerID: 37389

Reply By: Member - Oskar(Bris) - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 07:34

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 07:34
David - feel free to remove any of these types of posts.
Got nothing to say to whatsisname at the top but you have to agree with David about the advertising thing.
I shrink when I see those ads of X-trails etc driving through the surf and Pajeros etc lifting off over sand dunes.
How come they are always going so fast in the ads.
As the users/buyers/consumers of the very vehicles advertised surely we have some influence over the ads run by the manufacturers or their advertising companies.
OskarThe real oskar
AnswerID: 37392

Reply By: GOB member vic - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 07:35

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 07:35
must be dressed in the colour GREENimagine a 03 gu 4.2tdin the picture
as i am having trouble sizing the picture
AnswerID: 37393

Reply By: Andrew - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 07:41

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 07:41
There is much opinion about this issue. There is little evidence that 4wds are in fact harmful. I do not have the passion to go searching for evidence regarding the damage that 4wd's do. I have seen evidence that the aggressivity of a 4wd in a collision with a car is greater than in car to car collisions. My gut feeling is that this increase would be tempered by my impression that 4wd's would be less likely to be involved in a collision in the first place, as the drivers are on the whole big softies who drive non aggressively. (tho we can "post" aggressively lol).
If someone shows me evidence that large 4wd's are more likely to be involved in collisions causing injury than other vehicles in absolute terms, then I will conceed we might have a problem. The next size vehicle - trucks.... I would imagine that they have less accidents but when a truck and a car collide - the car loses. I absolute terms I think that their injury rate would be low.
Andrew
AnswerID: 37394

Reply By: tessa_51 - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 07:50

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 07:50
Well, I've sat back and read it all and find that I have to comment. First,I find almost without fail, that people don't believe that my city chariot a 1996 Magna, is actually longer and wider than my Prado. Some time ago I got the tape measure out and it confirmed that from the Prado drivng position I have a much smaller vision shadow to the front and both sides than I do in the Magna. I concedde that rear vision is restricted. But in the context of this argument I think that is irrelevant. You put any vehicle in reverse and the onus is on you to do so safely.
I have to disagree with the comments that 4x4's are difficul to park. My wife says she has a much better idea of where the corners are on the Prado than on the Magna.
As far as licences are concered, I ask WHY???? We are already the most over-governed society in the world. Our politicians have got legislative diarrhoea - particularly when it comes to motoring. Lets just reinforce the laws that we have got. And if someone driving a 4x4 is obviously out of their depth let the cops take action against their licence. That person would probably be exactly the same driving my Magna. They just can't drive. We see them every day in all types of vehicles. It's just that 4x4 bashing is the flavour of the month.

There I've got that off my chest. Have a good weekend.

Tessa
AnswerID: 37395

Reply By: Brett - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 08:54

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 08:54
Next, someone will be suggesting we need to be trained to operate the following items before we are able to purchae them:

Air compressor........Safe operation of a high pressure pneumatic device.

Winch......Safe operation of mobile crane.

Shackles and wire rope....Rigging license

Shovel........Safe operation of hand tools.

If you have platform type roof rack you will need to wear a harness(after to have been traing to put one on) because you are higher than 1.2 mts.

Matches and lighter.Safe operation of a combustion device.

Jerry can.....Dangerous goods license

Campsite selection........Town planning degree.

What else could we be licensed for??

AnswerID: 37398

Follow Up By: Wazza (Vic) - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 09:14

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 09:14
Don't forget the fines for not carrying the MSDS and signage for the BBQ gas.
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Follow Up By: Willem - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 11:02

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 11:02
Brett, you have a good sense of humour...very funny post....but there may even be a grain of thruth in it....look how the building and associated industries are regulated.....licence for this licence for that......

Most people cannot comprehend that all a 4x4 has is an extra drive axle. Other than that it is the same as a car. Most of these city or shopping centre posts are all about those who wish they had a 4by.

The day they bring out an extra licence to drive the 4by is the day I get the AK47 out of retirement and go 'hunting'.

Cheers,

Willem

Always going somewhere
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Follow Up By: Member - Eskimo - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 11:56

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 11:56
ak47? whats that you say?Wow! am I cute
If yer ain't fishing, Yer ain't livin
Richard
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Follow Up By: Brett - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 14:39

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 14:39
Although the post was meant to be satirical I do experience very similar obstructions on a weekly basis in the Bown basin coalfields.

Every person who drive a vehicle on a mine site needs to go through a 2 or 3 day Generic induction. Then once at sire other inductions need to be done. These are site specific. To drive on some mines you need to do a driving test and written test which can be up to 20 pages long.

Once you get a clearance to drive you need to get a Black coal competancy certificate. This certificate proves you have been trained to operate a particulae item of plant. Now say you have all of your inductions and Standard operating Procedure training in place , you have your Black Coal Competancy cert for Hi Lux reg # ABC-123 all well and good. ABC-123 needs to go in for service so you get into your other HiLux #ABC-124 guess what ? you cannot drive that on the mine site because you have not had specific training on that vehicle, even if they are identical.

Now lets say you are driving n a service road on a mine and you get a flat tyre..well there is no way you can change it unless you have been off to a trining course on how to change a tyre. You can only change the tyre if the the vehicle has had the jack and jacking point modified to make it safe as what is provided by the manufacturer is too great a risk.

I could go on more if you like but I think you get the gist.

One of my drivers was kicked off a mine for not being able to produce MSDS sheet on his Sunblock which he had to put on as instructed during training on SOLAR RADIATION. which cost me $35.00 for the course.
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Follow Up By: Willem - Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 18:22

Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 18:22
Hey Eskimo...just playing with words..hahahahahaWillem

Always going somewhere
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Follow Up By: Willem - Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 18:25

Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 18:25
Geez Brett,
For all the tea in China....I would not be able to put up with such rubbish. That is absolute madness.
Cheers,Willem

Always going somewhere
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Follow Up By: bruce.h (WA) - Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 17:59

Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 17:59
dont laugh
you are not far from the truth
signwriters look like being forced to become fully registered buildsie licenced to build anything from houses to high rise buildings . reason being is that in the eyes of the powers that be we attach our signs to buildings so we must be builders to do so
so now to operate as a signwriter we must be registred painters
registerd builders & shortly registered signswrites,
no bluddy wonder i cant ever get out of the office, im to busy climbing the red tape mountain
lmao
bruce
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Follow Up By: bruce.h (WA) - Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 17:59

Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 17:59
dont laugh
you are not far from the truth
signwriters look like being forced to become fully registered builders licenced to build anything from houses to high rise buildings . reason being is that in the eyes of the powers that be we attach our signs to buildings so we must be builders to do so
so now to operate as a signwriter we must be registred painters
registerd builders & shortly registered signswrites,
no bluddy wonder i cant ever get out of the office, im to busy climbing the red tape mountain
lmao
bruce
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FollowupID: 27210

Reply By: Member - Eskimo - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 11:53

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 11:53
the problem can be solvered by painting lines on the road .....all 2b's to the left and 4b's to the right... or should that be red lined roads for 2b's and white for 4b's

I've said it before and I'll say it again....One of the reasons I drive a 2 tonne 4wd is to get extra insurance for my family and I in the event that some wanker (you?)collides with us....I think you should all do the same....
Whats so different if your hit by a hi.ace or Mitsubishi van fullen laden ....
They are flat nosed and hell, also high. Get one of these hitting a normal sedan side on and note the intrusion.

Any car can be turned into a lethal weapon when being driven inconsiderately. Wow! am I cute
If yer ain't fishing, Yer ain't livin
Richard
AnswerID: 37404

Reply By: Jon - '88 TD42 GQ - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 13:17

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 13:17
As someone who rides a motorcycle and drives a 4WD I must say I cop it from all sides when it comes to road saftey debates. If I'm in the 4B I'm a leathal weapon. If I'm on the bike I'm a risk taker who deserves whatever injuries I get from careless drivers.

One thing I think people have missed is that the problem relates to ALL drives of 4WD vehicles, not just the type of people who are on this site. By that I mean that the majority of users of this site use their vehicles for their designed purpose and understand the restrictions and dangers inherent in a 2 tonne vehicle. On the other hand we have the North Shore soccer mums in their 100 Series Cruisers who think there car is just that, a car. These are the people we need to consider when we make decisions about how to deal with these issues.

The simple fact is driving a 4WD drive requires a different approach to driving a car and that a 4WD vehicle poses a greater danger to other road users than a standard vehicle. Anyone who tries to say otherwise is deluding themselves.

Personally, I think a class of licence to cover commercial and large 4WD vehicels is a good idea. I also think that actual driver training should be compulsory for all drivers of any kind of vehicle. You only have to look at the effect it had on motorcycle fatalities when it was introduced in 1990 to see how effective it is. In fact, if we did that, all the other problems might take care of themselves.

AnswerID: 37412

Reply By: Mixo - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 13:59

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 13:59
If you look at ALL of the classes of vehicles that can be found on our roads, the types of people that may be found driving them, and the potential problems posed for all road users, you will realise that you don't actually have a discussion point ! High clearance off road vehicles deserve no more or less attention than all other categories of vehicle. ...and "4WD" as a descriptor for high clearance off road vehicles is no longer valid - (eg: Subaru).....the yanks use SUV faras I know, but who wants to copy them ?Why I am here looking at this screen ?
AnswerID: 37414

Reply By: Lyds - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 15:04

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 15:04
I'm with MIXO.

Whats all the fuss about? If a North Shore soccer Mum wants her 100 Series to drive to the park and back so what? Of course, you wouldn't drive the thing like a sports car, but you only need to sit in the drivers seat to know that.

I drive across Sydney every day and I'm more worried about those who do more diagonal moves than when they play checkers (van drivers are good at this) and those with a mobile phone stuck to their ear.

Having a separate license for a 4WD is ludicrous.
Cheers,
Stuart
- To err is human, to moo bovine -
AnswerID: 37420

Reply By: Brian - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 16:26

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 16:26
bjsv650 ,
You probably think you have a fair point here... and who's to say you don't??? Just over 18 months ago I felt the same... we were laying on Rainbow Beach wondering why anyone would take a 20,30,40,70 thousand dollar car and drive it on the beach.
We hired a four wheel drive to see more of the area.

We now own one.

It took about 1 hour for the "bug" to bite us.
It's not everyones cup of tea.... neither is Aussie Rules... neither is Lawn Bowls.... some like to drink VB, others won't touch the stuff...

It's about choices. And when the choice is made, then it's about choosing whether to go the whole nine yards or make it up as you go along. To me, if I choose to drive my 4X4, I adjust my driving attitude to suit. If I drive my work van, (A short wheelbase Mitsubishi Express) I adjust my driving attitude to suit. (Touch wood, it's been a long time since I hit anything!!) In my carreer as a refrigeration tech, I have driven probably 30-40 different work cars. Take out the "double-ups" i.e fords, holdens etc... no two cars were/are the same. They each have to be driven according to the conditions. And that means the driver has to be aware of the cars/trucks properties.

And that's where the buck stops really, isn't it?? About taking responsibility for our own actions? Most 4X4er's that I know don't drive their trucks like they're in a "ricer" on steroids.... they drive sensibly and to the road conditions.. and if EVERYONE followed suit, debates like this would likely not exist. The people who drive a fourby as though it's a Porsche, or have little or no idea of the legth/width/handling are in complete disregard of their responsibilities.

Just my opinion.
Cheers
Brian
AnswerID: 37423

Follow Up By: Martin - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 22:25

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 22:25
Bryan I think you were lying on the beach. It's birds that go about laying eggs LOL
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FollowupID: 27111

Reply By: bjsv650 - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 17:13

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 17:13
Hey, a lively debate, thats what I like to see. Well, it seems alot of people get rather defensive at the suggestion that they should be able to prove they have the skills for driving a 4WD. People also like to try to confuse the issue of how dangerous they are on the road by comparing them to similar sized vehicles....news for you, its not the size, its the mass and the point that a 4WD collides with a small car (above the inner bracing in the door) that makes sure a holden astra full of teenagers doesn't have a chance of walking away without injurys when 40yo mid life crisis with his beer belly collides with them (regardless of who is at fault). (I am starting to remember the type of clientelle we used to have when I worked in the industry)
How aragant to put your safty above everyone else's on the road and at the same time putting everyone else at increased risk. With 2 sedans of simillar weight colliding, progressive crumple zones and air bags give the occupents of both vehicles a reasonable chance of walking away.....full chassis 4WD....even the latest ones with crumple zones are going to flatten a regular car because of its increased MASS.

I won't even go into Bullbars.

I agree licenceing should be more strict overall but I think the best that could be hoped for is licenceing of high risk vehicles. Yes, thats means 4WD's, and anyone conifident in their driving skills and who is a true enthousist shouldn't have any reason to object to this.

As for knowing the "freedom" of owning a 4WD, mate you don't have a clue what freedom means stuck in your metal and glass cage in rush hour, try riding a motorcycle on the road or dirt ( a specialist vehicle with a specialist licence) That is true freedom.

Fact: if you drive these things solely for getting around the city you are a wanka, pure and simple...I bet you even own spray on dirt to make it look like you really drive it off road.
Do the world a favour and shoot yourself in the head.

Oh and I don't give ableepabout my spelling
AnswerID: 37425

Follow Up By: Member - Eskimo - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 17:47

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 17:47
Go suck your ....er eggs bjvsWow! am I cute
If yer ain't fishing, Yer ain't livin
Richard
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FollowupID: 27102

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 17:47

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 17:47
hahaha was this post approved by your social workerLaterally Literal
Seriously Cerebral
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FollowupID: 27103

Follow Up By: Member - Eskimo - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 17:58

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 17:58
yes! BJSV approved it
Wow! am I cute
If yer ain't fishing, Yer ain't livin
Richard
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FollowupID: 27105

Follow Up By: Member - Tim&jan - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 19:02

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 19:02
you havent read or learnt a bloody thing this idiot isnt worth replying togu bush basha
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FollowupID: 27106

Follow Up By: Brian - Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 07:52

Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 07:52
bjsv650
Well... you almost had me believing you had a valid point. Even in your second post, I thought maybe, just maybe, you had given this whole issue a lot of thought.
You lost it from the "I won't even go into Bullbars" bit onwards.

YOU don't like 4X4's.... so they should be taken from the road.
YOUR opinion is the only one that matters, isn't it? Yet your second post uses the word "debate" in the first line. Afterwards you make reference to " I am starting to remember the type of clientelle we used to have when I worked in the industry".... didn't they like YOUR opinions either??

If your idea of freedom is "try riding a motorcycle on the road or dirt ( a specialist vehicle with a specialist licence) That is true freedom" then why are you here??? My guess would be that the Offroad Motorcycle Forums won't put up with your sh#t there either.

No wonder Toowoomba has a bad name.

Just my opinion
Cheers
Brian

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FollowupID: 27124

Follow Up By: David N. - Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 11:26

Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 11:26
C'mon guys, I think bjsv650 has a good point, very relevant and reasonable.
However I'd take it one step further..
All vehicles on the road should be identical, ie a "level playing field".
We achieve this by having a vote- then whether the winner is Commodores or bicycles or Mack trucks, ONLY those vehicles should be allowed on the road. (The winner might be pedestrians, ie: no cars allowed at all)
Also, when a new model whatever comes out, on a certain day everybody would have to stop driving their old whatever and only drive the new one, as it might give it's owner an advantage in an ACCIDENT which would be unfair to anybody infortunate enough to be driving an old model whatever.
Sounds fair and reasonable to me.!!!!!

Whaddya think? Should we put it to a vote. (I'd vote for a Nissan Patrol- it'll be bloody expensive if I lose!)
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FollowupID: 27137

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 16:27

Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 16:27
I vote Ssangyong MussoLaterally Literal
Seriously Cerebral
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FollowupID: 27149

Follow Up By: Member - Eskimo - Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 18:17

Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 18:17
all the same?...i vote toyota

shhhh whats a Ssangyong Musso Wow! am I cute
If yer ain't fishing, Yer ain't livin
Richard
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FollowupID: 27214

Reply By: Truckster (Vic) - Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 20:54

Saturday, Nov 15, 2003 at 20:54
Troll..

Who has a few names here... Funny watching people argue/agree with themselves to make a point..
AnswerID: 37433

Reply By: Member - Toonfish - Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 00:31

Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 00:31
Did i say i like ferris wheels
weeeeeeeeeeee!!1999 NISSAN NAVARA DUALCAB
DIESEL 3.2 & SPRINGY CARLTON TOY
2 awestruck kids (dads driving!)
AnswerID: 37447

Reply By: Member - Jack - Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 20:55

Sunday, Nov 16, 2003 at 20:55
I've seen plenty of unskilled drivers driving small sedans.
They seem to assemble around school grounds of a morning and evening.
JackNo trees were harmed in the making or sending of this message.
However a great number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
AnswerID: 37502

Reply By: roblin - Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 14:17

Monday, Nov 17, 2003 at 14:17
What a can of worms.
I drive a 4wd, like many other people for two distinct purposes (3 when I get my van).
No 1 - I need a vehicle with at least 6 seats to cater for my family structure. Of the choices, I could:

a. by a Tarago or similar van that places myself right up front and really requires a bullbar (oh no, another anti pedestrian piece of kit) to ensure my surviveability should I have an accident). You then still have the same visibility options, arguably the same pollution and, possibly less interior space to carry things other than your passengers (kids!). These things, no matter how much they are dressed up, are carry vans with seats in my opinion.

b. Purchase a Ford Falcon with the small 'dicky seat' between the front seats. This allows good luggage carriage but places one of my kids at the front of the vehicle, in a somewhat limited seat with only a lap belt. The other option is for a passenger wagon with the added seat in the back of the wagon. Have you seen these things. One rear end accident and your kids (if they are small enough to fit into the space) are likely to end up squashed. Was consided for purchase and then considered too dangerous.

c. 4wd - Patrol now. Options range from Suzuki X7 to Cruiser. 7+ seats. some protection and the ability to arrange the seats to allow luggage space with 6 ikn the vehicle.

No 2. I actually enjoy getting off the beaten track once in awhile. No, I don't do it every weekend and no, I don't do serious 4wding. I do the occasional hill and track work that would be prohibitive to a normal car and, in many instances, a small 4wd. I have, through work, been fortunate enough to have undertaken a formal 4wd training course (through DECA) and received the appropriate experience in offroad situations, recovery, emergencies, etc.

no 3. - i am in the process of searching for and, eventually, purchasing a caravan that I wish to tow long distances. I have done extensive towing with both sedans and 4wds. Considering the size of the van, I am not comfortable with towing it with a sedan and, (from point No1) wouldn't consider this with all of my family in tow.

As a motorcyclist, fisherman and 4wd owner, I have seen and read the many arguments by various lobby groups to ban or limit these and various otheractivities. As many are aware, you can lobby for or against any thing if you present the right argument and produce the statistics that suit your cause. Pedestrian injuries in cities are attributed to the vehicle class as road accidents; regardless of the actual cause. Many pedestrian accidents are caused by careless pedestrians. It just doesn't suit statisticians to actually state this. Govt departments can't have a pedestrian toll on the nightly news. That is why it is a road toll and is attributed to vehicles.

Regarding bullbars and 4wds in the various urban areas - trucks, vans, buses, taxis, trams etc, don't have crumple zones. They, like 4wds are lower performance (in both acceleration, cornering and braking - except for taxis) and present limited road view opportunities and limit motorcycle lane splitting (an illegal activity anyway). They all have the potential to kill the poor pedestrian that happens to wander into their path yet there are not too many lobby groups canvassing for their removal from the streets because public transport and commercial activity is seen as essential and politically 'in favour'. 4WDs are an easy target that has people thinking about there purpose.

A few months back, Today Tonight (I think it was) ran an article about the lack of protection in 4WDs (based on USA crash testing figures) and also detailed the 185% increase, over so manh years, in 4WD accidents in Aus. It didn't, however, explain that 4WD ownership had actually increased by a significantly higher % figure and that, statistically, the accident rate would also increase. Just an aside, statistically, motor vehicle accidents are increasing as a whole regardless of the limiting and preventitive measures being implemented by all govt authorities. This includes lower suburban speed limits, better safety features, better training (ha!), double demerit points during specific periods. Why? Because, as I said, you canprove anything statistically. The fact is, that cars are more affordable than ever and, with a growing population , of course accident rates will climb.

I agree that 4wds are less than ideal for city driving. Do you suggest that I now have two seprate vehicles to carry my family and enjoy my leasure time? Wow, what a waste of materials, money, more pollution through manufacturing and running 2 vehicles. Yes they do cost more. So does owning more than one vehicle. That is my choice. I accept the costs and responsibility for ownership. That is how democracies work.

What about the advantages of 4wd ownership. Better road view and stance, safer on marginal (ie dirt) roads with the ability to employ 4H as required. Towability for horse floats, boats, vans, trailers of any sorts, etc.

Like many have said in this form, don't crap in your own nest or those of your brethren. This is a 4wd folder and is likely to give a positive response.
I don't agree with separate licensing. Motorcycles are different beasts and require different skills and techniques. Yes, 4wds require a more proactive response for braking and acceleration. The problem is when people try to drive them like sports cars. they aren't so they shouldn't.

The funny thing is, that I suspect that most people buy and own a 4wd to satisfy one or all of the same 3 requirements that I have. There are options. But there aren't too many that can satisfy all at once.

E-mail now too long. Temperature now below boiling point.

Regards

rob
AnswerID: 37549

Reply By: Member - Melissa - Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 15:13

Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 15:13
I'm tired! Tired of having to defend my decision to own and drive a 4WD and tired of having to explain that whilst I am female I'm also a very good driver with a good record (lifetime no claim bonus).

I'm also really perplexed as to where this continual knocking of 4WD's and 4WD owners stems from. The facts and figures relating to road accidents and deaths simply do not support the level of "hatred" that non-4WD owners seem to have. Young men in V8 cars and suped up V6's represent the single biggest accident and fatality related group and despite this well recognised fact I don't see special licencing requirements or banning of them driving certain types of vehicles being legislated because at the end of the day, it's all about freedom of choice.

Secondly, you mention pollution caused by 4WDrives. The fact is, 4WD vehicles are subject to the same emission laws as any other vehicle.

:o) Melissa
Petrol 4.5L GU Patrol &
Camprite TL8 offroad camper
http://members.westnet.com.au/flatdog
AnswerID: 37678

Reply By: bjsv650 - Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 23:23

Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003 at 23:23
Jesus Christ, listen to your pathetic excuse's for your infeariority complex's. You would say anything to justify driving you oversized egomobiles around, wouldn't you?
Do you think everyone hates your kind for no reason? Here they are

(1) You chew up (damage) more road than us because your vehicles weigh more,

(2) You take up more space than us on the already crowded roads,

(3) POLLUTE (while emmision laws are the same, fact is that a bigger engine in a heavier body with big fat arse tyres pollutes more...its common sense)

(4) Put other vehicles greater risk (see my last post)

(5) Block other peoples iew of traffic (while you may justify this by saying you block no more than a Van or a people mover but the difference is that people buy these for a definete worthwhile purpose, not the ego-orintated motives most of you have, I would hazard a guess that most of you could fit your familys in a Commadore/falcon.

See, thats why Urban 4WDers suck.

Losers

AnswerID: 37757

Follow Up By: ThePublican - Wednesday, Nov 19, 2003 at 18:30

Wednesday, Nov 19, 2003 at 18:30
Have now read all the posts you have done , and have read all the replies,, have even done a survey of 300 of my customers at the pub,, all are in agreement,,YOUR A RICHARD CRANIUM !!.
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FollowupID: 27436

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