Suspension upgrade for new steel bullbar?

I can recommend these guys too. They did a top job on my Prado with bar, winch and lift.

Cheers

Frank

Have to agree Bantam, also steer clear of Old Man Emu shocks...get some decent ones.

In regards to the comparison of the passengers to a ball bar and winch. You would need to strap the cook to the front of the car to get the true effect. The extra weight is sitting forward of the front wheels . I will say that when adding my bar and winch under breaking it was very apparent that I needed a heavier torsion bar the nose of my car would dive.

Regards
Craig

We have a Landcruiser 200 series that has a Lovell GVM upgrade, after fitting the ARB bar and Warn M12000 winch the suspension dropped around 40mm bringing it back to just below standard ride height at the front with the rear sitting up in by 75mm over standard giving a noise down bum up appearance.

One big thing we did notice with this setup was on high speed dirt roads with washouts the factory tie down points would make contact with the ground and the front felt very very spongy..... worse then factory standard with out bar and winch.

Lovell reenginnered the front springs with an end result of the front coming up 60mm making the Landcruiser nearly level.... the improvement in feel and stability has increased 3 fold, the biggest thing was it removed the bouncing and floating feeling also aiding in cornering abilities..... sure it's a bit firmer but not uncomfortable and if anything it has made it a more comfortable tourer.

Any body who thinks an upgrade is not needed have to be kidding them selves considering most 4x4's are over weight when travelling.

To give an ideal the Landcruiser standard has a GVM empty (no fuel) of 2650Kg.... we have removed the rear second and third row seats, added a steel ARB bar, winch, ARB alloy roofrack, Kaymar rear bar, suspension kit, Toyota factory steel rims and MTZ tyres.

The Landcruiser has no aux battery, draw system or fridge as yet and when weighed last week with 1/4 tank of fuel it came in at 3050kg....... leaving only 250kg for camping gear, people, fuel and 4x4 accessories of a fridge, draw system and aux batterys making it over the factory GVM...... add a camper or caravan on the back and there is another 100 to 200Kg

Luckily we have had the GVM increased to 3800kg.... still cutting it fine when fully set up so in short no factory suspension is designed for the average weight of 4x4ing.

A suspension kit would be one of my first priorities for safety and durability, not to mention off road abilities.



Food for thought!

Just because a softly suspended, low clearance SUV like a 200 series, dives at the nose when a little extra weight is put on the front does not mean the same is true for all other vehicles.

here are the facts.
200 series
Kerb weight 2700Kg, GVM 3300Kg total payload including pasengers 600Kg

This is suposed to be an 8 seater, put 2 x 95 Kg adults and 6 x 45Kg teen agers with the school bags and you are on the limit, add some shopping and you are overloaded
.
likewise if you put 5 x 90Kg adults. their bag and swag, in it you have overloaded and you aren't carrying any water or food yet.

On a 200 series, 80Kg of bullbar and winch is more than 10% of the total payload, and on an already softly sprung vehicle.

76 series waggon
kerb weight 2190, GVM 3000Kg, total payload including pasengers 800KG

78 series troppy 3 seater
kerb weight 2320kg GVM 3300Kg total payload including pasengers 980Kg

79 series ute
kerb weight 2045Kg, GVM 3300Kg total payload including pasengers 1255Kg

On top of that the 76, 78, 79 will be stiffer suspended and designed to tolerate overloading far better than the 200series.

On paper the 200 series may seem to have better ground clearance in practice the commercial variants sit higher on the chasis

To do anything other than the school run a 200 series needs work, in particular its baggy suspension designed to satisfy socker moms.

The 70 series on the other hand for decades have been loaded up with bars, winhes and plates then flogged all over the country side with no suspension mods.

The need for a suspension upgrade definitely varies from vehicle to vehicle.

cheers

Obviously your a person who doesn't believe in suspension kits and suspension only has a small part to play in GVM.

I suppose your right about the 200 series..... do we get a Patrol that out of the factory is very capable but has a tendency to fall apart or do we get a 200 series and spend some money on it and turn it in to something the Patrol could only dream about being.

Why will a 70 series tolerate overloading better then the 200?

Why compare a commercial vehicle with a passenger vehicle..... a 70 series looks weak to a Mack truck.

Overloading is overloading, and as I said before suspension only plays a small part in it..... what about axle loadings?

Mate I suggest you have a look at the Patrol specs. before commenting about the 200..... Patrol ST automatic tare weight 2455KG with max GVM of 3060KG = 605kg payload

Landcruiser 200 series GXL tare weight 2635kg with a max GVM of 3300KG = 665Kg pay load..... in my books that's 60Kg more payload then the heavy sprung Patrol..... not bad for a low slug soft suspension mums taxi!

It never seems to amaze me the people who knock late model 4x4's.

The reason I knock late model pasenger car 4wds like the 200 series AND other simplar stationwaggons, is that people so frequently start with a vehicle that is simply not intended for nor is up to the job...a vehicle that is not fit for purpose

The 200 series as it comes from the factory is plainly a SUV, and the payload is insufficient for what a lot of people try to do with it.
Hell it wont even work well on the beach without relocating the spare wheel.

The fact is proven by people wanting to upgrade the GVM...why not buy a vehicle that is fit for the purpose to start with, and a crucial part of that fitness for purpose is having anadquate payload for the task.

So why buy a pasenger car and rip all the seats out and have to upgrade the GVM when there are a number of vehicle that come with adequate Payload to start with.

cheers

Maybe people want a 4x4 with comfort, handling, NVH and good ability that eats miles with ease..... we do many long trips and I could not think of anything worse then a 70 series for long hauls.

I know what I would sooner get out of after 1000+ kilometre stint.

And don't knock a 200 series until you have had a good long drive off and on road in one.

If you were smart enough you would realise the 200 and 70 series has the same GVM meaning if you took weight out of the 200 it could carry the same as the 70 series.

Mate I could of bought a 70 series but I chose a 200 series.... could be a case of "tall poppy syndrome"

Why do you think it's a passenger car when it has a full chassis..... so Patrol in same boat?

And what part of the 200 series is not fit for purpose.... maybe the price for the average blue collar servant!

We had a Hilux before complete with diff locks and 330 liters fuel capacity blah blah blah set up fro remote travelling and the 200 will go everywhere the Hilux went and a bit more...... the best thing is articulation... try 5 inches more then the Hilux.

And about upgrading GVM, this was more done for legal reasons and seeing they are starting to pull 4x4's over weigh bridges and defecting them for being overweight it was only sensable to increase the GVM cheaply while we could before rego.

Anyway this thread was about bull bars and suspension.... not about how much you hate modern people carrying 4x4's.

My point is exacty this a 4wd pasenger car ( one that has pasenger carrying capacity and soft ride as THE priority) will probaly have suspension so soft that putting a few extra Kg on the front will so adversely effect its performance that it will require a suspension upgrade....hardly surprising.

Where a 4wd light commercial will have suspension sufficient to carry the extra KG from a bi=ullbar and winch and quite a few other things and perform exactly how it is suposed to unmodified.

Just because a saggy baggy station waggon needs a suspension upgrade after fitting a bullbar does not mean every other 4wd needs a suspenion upgrade for the same addition.

so

"when fully set up so in short no factory suspension is designed for the average weight of 4x4ing."

is not a valid statement.

cheers

For god sake's the guy is asking about his Patrol.... a Patrol is according to you a passenger vehicle much like a 200 series.

We are NOT talking about commercial vehicles so why do you keep on referring to one?

So yes my statement "when fully set up so in short no factory suspension is designed for the average weight of 4x4ing" is valid.

And by the way no factory suspension setup unless light truck and above are designed for constant weight..... put 800kg's in a 79 series that can carry 1200kg legally and watch the bum drag..... if you think this is good suspension mate I think you need new glasses.

If they designed suspension for a constant 1200kg in a 79 series the ride for 90% of the time for 85% of people would be unbearable.

Why do you think a suspension kit is the first thing to go in to most mining, government and business vehicles that may carry a load...... it's not to increase the legal GVM..... it's to help the under performing factory suspension.

Why are you so against suspension lifts..... bet your the type of guy who doesn't believe in lowering tyre pressures!

Get over it....

For goodness sakes,

Not everbody is going to be loading their vehicles near or over capacity.

Not every station waggon 4WD is a saggy, baggy and ill suited for off road work as a 200 Series SUV is in factory trim.

Not everybody or every vehicle needs suspension lifts or suspension modifications, for the work those who own them are doing with them.

There are thousands and thousands of 4wds out there fitted with bullbars and factory suspension that perform quite satisfacorily to the owners needs.

Olcoolone mate you have consistenly thrown the baby out with the bathwater and over reacted to my consistently moderate views.

On the matter of suspension lifts and other modifications,
My view is that there is a moderate and technicaly sensible level at which this can be performed...outside of that they should be illegal plain and straight out.

And that is the case in most states other than NSW.

In particular GVM upgrades should be straight out BANNED, because next to nobody is prepared to do what is required to restore the manufacturers designed safety factors in all respects.......and that includes, brake and hub upgrades, chasis reinfrcement and driveline upgrades.

So may people are modifying 4wds way beyond their original design it is rediculous.......if the vehicle was so far inadequte and ill suited to the purpose, a different vehicle should have been purchased.

On the matter of "suspension kits", springs are springs and shock absorbers are shock absorbers, there is no inseperable relationship between the two.

The notion that there are shockies "matched" to any particular spring is a falsehood perpetuated by those who want to sell "packages"

There may be shockies that are better suited to certain springs in certain uses but packaging as we see it is salesmanship pure and simple.

NONE of the major long standing quality shock absorber manufacturers (manufacturers that have their own factories), such as Koni, Bilstine, KYB manufacture springs for the australian 4wd market...even some of the smaller, lesser known or down market brands of shockabsorber do not make springs.

Most of the companies offering "matched spring and shocky packages" do not offer a major long standing shock absorber brand, they offer house branded springs and shock absorbers, in many cases neither of which thay actually manufacture.

As for the patroll...there is a world of difference between a 200series and a patrol, some of it good some of it bad.

But regardless of brand or model my original comments remain....these things must be assessed on a case by case basis.

cheers

Bantam take a trip down to your local suspension specialist that supply the mining company's with there cars.
Look in the skip bin out by the road side.. Its full of Brand new landcruiser suspension components. (this is only applicable to the commercial vehicle)
Why because it is not suited to the defined application the car will be used for.
As for the 200 series my father in law is on his second. He is a surveyor its a work vechile. He changes cares every 2 years for the 15+ years I have known him. He states that it is the best 4wd he has ever owned. He has been in the north west of WA working for 35 years and has made this call with a fair bit of history to support it.

So What!

The mining companies make their decisions bassed on the fact that their vehicles will be flogged by people who simply dont care...

BTW there are lots of mine vehicles that are bog standard, just look thru a selection of used troopies at somewhere that sells volume of them like "East Coast Commercials" or "Cousins"

And I bet ya FIL's 200 series is not in factory trim.

BTW my brother has just retired the MQ patroll he baught new, it has over 800 000 very hard Km on it, the bar work on it is heavier than anything you will buy commercially and the winch in the front is an old thomas and that weighs a lot more than 20KG.
He's a rural contractor working in the north and west of QLD.
Last heavy trip the old MQ did, it took him 4 hours in low range to go 20Km across gibbers to get to the jobsite
This vehicle has never had other than factory nissan springs in it (admitredly several sets), and its never looked like it was sagged.


What is appropriate is decisions bassed on need and not on marketing bassed general insistance.

cheers

I see you have already done that

Good quality well chosen shocks will be a blessing regardless of the load you are carrying or the springs that are fitted.

The stiffer sprung vehicles realy benifit from good shocks when they are lightly loaded......an unloaded hilux for instance with buggered shocks will ride like a dray.

cheers