Engel - Not staying cold on 12 Volts?

Will dig out the multi meter and check the voltages, from memory I think a fully charged battery not being charged should be at 12.6 volts. (Going from a normal battery though will have to check for a deep cell type)

Might charge the battery again to a full charge, check the volts, record this number and then run the fridge checking the temp.

Once the temp rises I will again check the volts.

I am not running it in the vehicle have removed it from the vehicle to work in the shed, I should have added that the battery I am using is the one from a caravan not the one in the vehicle when the problem arose.

I suppose it would be better if it was the battery rather than the fridge, might mean two new batteries though

thanks

Hi Andrew, I was told when buying the fridges that it needs to have something in it or the compressor will run all the time and not to turn it off after you start to use them. I put this to a test, running on separate battery's (both the same) and found the empty fridge had used more power than the full fridge. Now leave a bottle of water in it and both use the same power.
Andy

Hi
Re "Member Andys Adventures posted:
Hi Andrew, I was told when buying the fridges that it needs to have something in it or the compressor will run all the time and not to turn it off after you start to use them. I put this to a test, running on separate battery's (both the same) and found the empty fridge had used more power than the full fridge. Now leave a bottle of water in it and both use the same power.
Andy""

Sorry, but there is no sound basis for such.
Empty, the fridge will have a lower thermal storage mass
It will have shorter "on" AND "off" cycles but will not use more power
There is absolutely NO reason why an Engel will run continuosly when empty
The set air temperature in the fridge will be reached qucker but will also rise quicker due to the low thermal mass this will lead to SHORTER ON AND OFF cycles

Peter
Simple high school physics explains THAT

Hi Peter, Physics and reality two different things, as you say The set air temperature in the fridge will be reached quicker but will also RISE quicker due to the low thermal mass, so it will run just about all the time.

Hi Andy
Reality is often imagination
Physics are proven laws of nature/science
The fridge will run in shorter cycles both on & off than when loaded
The run time WILL BE shorter DUE TO LESS THERMAL MASS TO COOL
THE off time WILL be shorter due to less mass holding the cold

The losses that the fridge has to make up for ARE the thermal losses THROUGH the insulation
That is a constant for any set of conditions, empty or full!!

Any fridge that runs continuously when empty has a problem, perhaps due to thermostat location[Waecos??]

Peter

Hi Andrew
Re :Member - Andrew (WA) replied:
I recently had a similar issue...it was the deep cycle auxiliary battery.

Interesting point made above about not running the fridge when empty...I've never heard that before and this may have contributed to the death of battery if true. ""

I doubt you WILL hear it from anywhere else.
& certainly is not applicable to Engels

Perhaps what is being referred to is ,that with a fridge, particularly an upright type, every time the cold air spills out when the door is opened ,the inrushing warm air has to be cooled,
IF the air space is taken up, even by closed empty bottles, the fridge has less warm air to cool

However if the fridge is not opened then the only losses are through the insulation& that is a constant for the same set of conditions ,being loaded WILL make no difference!!
Sometimes what is a fact gets distorted & suddenly becomes a myth covering totally wrong / non applicable situations
Peter

Andrew

Empty fridge vs Full fridge

The main thing to remember is that you cannot cool air down efficiently.
That is it is real hard on battery's

On a recent trip we filled our 40 lt Engle with frozen food, from mains power, and then easily kept it there from the auxillary battery, for a perios of 7 weeks.

Food out was replaced by back filling, as much as humanly possible, with refilles plastic drink containers. This meant that the bulk die the cooling, as well as the auxillary battery.

Hope this all makes sense, it's very early in the morning, and I am up normal time
CHeers
Bucky

Hi
Re :"The main thing to remember is that you cannot cool air down efficiently.
That is it is real hard on battery's""

Perhaps some posters need to brush up on their high school science!!
It's certainly is not rocket science

You loaded the fridge with a pre FROZEN mass Don't you think THAT was the /is the difference
If you had not done that & filled with product @ ambient temp,what would be the result??[ that terrible air space would be reduced]

Peter

Hi
Re:"Food out was replaced by back filling, as much as humanly possible, with refilles plastic drink containers. This meant that the bulk die the cooling, as well as the auxillary battery. ""

AND cooling that warm fill was not hard on the battery !!!!!
The Bulk did not do the COOLING , the BATTERY & FRIDGE DID THE UNNESSESARY COOLING
The BULK once it was down to temp ,AFTER USING BATTERY POWER,
SIMPLY changed the cycle time,longer ON period ,longer OFF periods.


In fact the Engel ,as with most fridges has the thermostat attached to the evaporator ,
It responds to evaporator temp, the more the COLD is drawn away from the evaporator the longer the fridge will run

The thermostat is not sensing AIR temp.

Science & knowledge PLEASE, not half baked theories !

Peter

Hi Peter, I have 2 40lt Engel fridge freezer and 2 optima battery. Both new had one fridge and one battery connected and same with the other, one had food in it and the other empty. So can you explain why the empty fridge used more power than the fridge that had food in it. As when I put frozen bottles of water in it it use the same power. Their was a story years ago when the first slip form concrete roads where build and an engineer straight out of uni still with his text book in his hand ask me to cut the concrete after 3 hours of it being layed, because the text book told him it had to be cut within 3 hours or it would crack. I tried to tell him it was too early and the concrete needed more time to cure but he insisted I cut it.Well I unloaded the saw and it sank into the concrete, why did that happen, the science said it should have been hard enough but it wasn't. Science is not always right, but proven tests are. Oh the concrete was finely cut some 11 hours latter with no cracking.
Andy

Hi Andy
re:", I have 2 40lt Engel fridge freezer and 2 optima battery. Both new had one fridge and one battery connected and same with the other, one had food in it and the other empty. So can you explain why the empty fridge used more power than the fridge that had food in it. As when I put frozen bottles of water in it it use the same power""

I have explained, in several ways,& given reasons , why it should not use more power,

Perhaps you could do the same, explaining the reasons it does use more.
But they should be reasons based on FACTS not beliefs
& include details as to how you carried out the test.

I do hope they were accurate ,correctly carried out tests
Did you have both fridges operating in similar conditions?
Did you record POWER [watt hrs or even Amp hrs]used over 24hrs?
Did you record length of run times & off timesover 24hrs ?
Battery condition is not a satisfactory way of determing power usage of ANY devise

I have had Engels for 43years & the original still goes as good as new
None have ever run anything like continuously when empty!!
They follow the laws of Physics as I have indicated in my posts
The compreesor runs to make up for the energy [cold]lost through the insulation or door opening

If the door is not opened then the only loss is via insulation
The extent of that loss is independent of the cold mass in the fridge, but is dependent on the temp difference bteween the inside of the fridge & its surrounding ambient temp & the effect of breeze, direct sun , etc

The difference between inside & ambient temp DOES make a difference
The larger the difference the higher the losses ,requiring the fridge to run longer over 24hrs to make up for those higher losses

The thremostat bulb is in contact with the evaporator, it operates on evaporator temp not air temp OR the mass in the fridge

A loose floating thermostat will give very erratic results
Peter

True I am no rocket scientist, but a full fridge will keep colder longer than one with nothing in it.

I do not care where the evaporator, or thermostat is.

Hi Bucky
Re :"True I am no rocket scientist, but a full fridge will keep colder longer than one with nothing in it.

I do not care where the evaporator, or thermostat """

OF course It will stay colder, longer simply because it has more cold mass which will take longer to warm to "ON" from insulation losses so the "OFF" time will be longer
But once "ON' it will also run longer to recool that mass to "off"
The "ON" & "OFF" times will be longer & fewer


All that is in total accord with all I have been posting!!!!

The claim was made that an empty fridge will run continously, that claim is patently wrong wrong
Due to less cold mass the fridge will cool quicker
But will also warm up quicker
Again due to those same constant insulation losses
But the 'ON' &"off tiimes will be shorter simply due to the less mass


For the same conditions, fridge temp, ambient temp, etc the insulation losses will be the same
The fridge power usage over the same period [empty or full ]will be the same

But as I pointed out in a previous post, if a large cold air mass is lost due to opening the fridge, that will incur a longer run time to recool that warm air

THAT is the basis of keeping the air space smaller

I suspect that is how the myth started

It can simply be achieved with empty sealed plastic bottles which will retain the cold air inside & is a common practise [including by myself]
It does not require using power /energy to cool warm water
However if ample energy is available , the unnecceessary cooling of a warm mass, while no gain, is not a problem
If one has limited energy available ,battery ,the last thing one would want to do is cool anything not required to be cooled

The very simple thing to understand is once the fridge has cooled to whatever setting, if the contents are not changed , the door not opened
the only reason it runs is to make up for the losses through the insulation
If the insulation was perfect the fridge would stay cold indefinately

If one wants to conserve energy with a fridge[ or ICE box] the only way to improve is to encrease the insulation , reduces losses through the insulation .
Result, shorter overall run time

No one needs to be a rocket scientist to understand those simple facts, surely?

Peter

Wish I was that clever !

John,

As you well know, you can achieve the same result by using the resistance setting on the multimeter and checking each wire in turn.
A broken or poorly connected wire will show up by either a short circuit, open circuit, or a resistance reading of some level in between, while wriggling the cable.

A much sounder practise than using pins.

No Bill. Yes you can (and we all do !) find simple intermittent continuity problems using the resistance ranges, but continuity tested with microamps doesn't tell the whole story about what is happening with amps flowing. A dc test doesn't tell the whole story when the load is reactive either. From what the OP has said (different batteries, problem present with batteries apparently well charged) the fault is likely to be either in the cable or the fridge itself - maybe either the inverter or the low voltage cutout. Monitoring under working conditions is preferable to any static resistance measurement.

Bill, another point. If well intentioned and well informed people get their heads bitten off when they post, they stop posting and keep their heads down. Electrical stuff especially seems to attract abrasive comment. "As you well know..." Yes of course I know, having been around this sort of stuff for over half a century! You are a valued contributor. Please avoid introducing friction - too many others seem content to do so!

Cheers

John

Hi Stan. 24V computer fans are avalable from 40mm-120mm from WES Components in Sydney. If you want to run one 12v fan from 24V DC use a 3 terminal regulator type 7812 1Amp reg about $2 worth.

thanks for that info dbish
At the time I installed my fans I would have paid for that information.
Thanks again
Cheers
Stan

I bought a 24V Engel fan from the WA Engel dealer on the internet this year no problems at all.
The fridge still worked well on 12V, but cycled a bit more. The fan works on both 240V and 12V inputs.
Regards Philip A

Hi RoughAs Guts
Yes could well be the problem
Usually will be noted by the plug or socket getting hot.

A few myths to dispel regarding Engels & batteries

Engels:
[1] They do not have an induction motor
[2]They do not have a high inrush [startup] current
[3] The actual current when running is failry constant @around 4amps
[4]AS the voltage drops THIS current will decrease
5]Engels do not have a low voltage cutout as they cannot be damaged by low voltage
[6]the oft quoted 2.6 Amps is the averageper hour over 24hrs [ie total of around 63 amphrs per 24hrs, BUT is dependent on many conditions such as ambient temp ,thermo setting . loading of warm goods etc


Batteries:
[7]Batterries ,as pointed out by others ,loose capacity with age
]8]This loss is dramatically encreased if the battery is excessively disharged frequently
The extent depends on the battery type
[9]A battery with almost NO REMAINING capacity may still respond as fully charged even to the best charger
Simply because it has achieved a voltage indicating it is fully charged, which it is, TO WHAT EVER THAT REMAINING CAPACITY MAY BE
It may be almost zero capacity

Peter

Hi 4runner
The voltage test must be done with the fridge switched on & RUNNING

However it realy needs to be done inside the fridge @the rear of the fridge plug SOCKET
This eleminates ALL possible external areas of lost voltage, Which I am SURE is your problem[ bad connections ,sick battery etc]
The plug & socket ON the fridge may be the source
Check for ANY sign of corrossion or heat[also check all connections for heat while fridge is running] on both the socket pins & the plugs.
It may be that there is sufficient resistance there to reduce the available voltage, so the swing motor cannot go thru a full stroke
This will be noted as just a SLIGHT hum rather than a definate loud vibration as when it is working correctly


Peter

A lot of good suggestions here, I am going to purchase a new plug and cable (Can be a spare one) and then start the testing.

I would have to have the worst luck for both batteries that I am using to be cactus.

The battery will be tested first with the solar panels connected to it, if the fridge stays cold all day then hopefully this means the battery is faulty (Hoping that 4 amps from the panels will cover the amp draw)

If not then then I will change the cable and do the same test without the solar panel.

After all that, it might be a visit to the sparky to bench test both the fridge and battery.

Many thanks to all for all the advice, damm good forum this one

If worried about the Patch Cable shorting something out, put a inline fuse on it !

Gday 4Runner,
Glad you got the multimeter out!!

#1 Can I suggest you test the voltage at the end of the fridge cable after you've unplugged it from the fridge. That way you will be checking the cable as well. The engel leads have been known to break a wire inside the fridge plug and that is another likely cause of your problem.

#2 You haven't ruled out a problem with your wiring yet - it needs to have a load on it (such as your fridge running because the voltage can be fine with no load and drop to very little when the fridge starts running. You might have a bad earth or a corroded fuse under the bonnet or lots of other wiring problems that are only revealed when you put a load on it.

#3 Yes its OK to run an engel from your battery while it has a Ctek connected. The voltage will be 14.4V.

Cheers
Phil

Hi
As Phil has pointed out, testing the voltage with the fridge not running i is not a suitable test
IT does not proove athe cables OR the connections are ok .
THE TEST MUST BE DONE WITH THE FRIDGE ACTAULLY RUNNING /WORKING

& preferably Inside @ the inlet socket
Since that may be difficult ,a good close visual examination of the inlet socket pins for ANY SIGNS OF CORROSION ,HEATING ETC IS WARRANTED

i
Yes they do use a inverter board for the 12v operation & only a transformer for 240v operation

But if it runs ok for some hrs as you have indicated when driving ,the board is VERY unlikely to be the problem
My #1 suspect is still the battery, But poor connections may be aggravating the problem
Yes connect charger to battery BUT MAKE SURE YOU CONNECT THE FRIDGE DIRECT TO THE BATTERY TERMINALS not to the charger leads
Or FIRST, you could simply connect as normal & put the charger on the battery
That will confirm that the connections are all ok
During that check for any sign of heating @ all the connections /plugs & sockets


NO point in taking the fridge to a repairer until you confirm it is the fridge at fault.

Peter
Peter