simpson desert

That is one of the most ill-thought out responses to climbing Ayres Rock / Uluru I have read. It does NOT show disrespect!

If the traditional owners were that concerned about climbing the rock then they would not permit it under any circumstance. The mere fact that they do allow it means that it is not an issue.

Or another way you could see it is that every human has a price...

Actually I must apologise for that as I dont mean it to be personal. The belief that is sprouted about it being offensive to the locals is dumb. Again, if they dont like it they are well within their rights to stop it.

They choose not to...for now.

Mate,
It was part of the deal to hand "ownership" back to the local people that access was not denied. I don't think they are too keen on people climbing it but can't stop them.
I personally didn't climb, just admired and wondered as we walked around it but to each his own. I, too am an aethist.
Ian

Off Track

Have you sat down and discussed this with the elders of the Anangu people as I have ? What expertise or evidence do you base your opinions on ?

Do you think Anglicans or Catholics would be offended if people clambered over their holy places ( and used them as a toilet ) ?

===============================================
"That's a really important sacred thing that you are climbing... You shouldn't climb. It's not the real thing about this place.
And maybe that makes you a bit sad. But anyway that's what we have to say. We are obliged by Tjukurpa to say. And all the tourists will brighten up and say, 'Oh I see. This is the right way. This is the thing that's right. This is the proper way: no climbing.'
Kunmanara, Traditional Owner
What visitors call 'the climb' is of great spiritual significance to us. The climb is not prohibited, but we ask that you will choose to respect our law and culture by not climbing. When you visit the Cultural Centre you will learn more about the significance of Uluru in our culture."

http://www.environment.gov.au/parks/uluru/visitor-activities/do-not-climb.html

===============================================


With the greatest respect I would like to see the evidence you have to back your statements .


Aboriginal people show understanding and respect for what has become part of our culture by allowing people to climb Uluru for the reasons I have put above, do you think it would be that difficult for us to show similar respect for their beliefs and their culture ?


It causes them a great deal of distress when a climber dies on their sacred site, it is shameful for them that tourists use it as a toilet.

Yet they continue to allow people to climb, they just ask that you choose not to.

Facts:

It would be greatly disrespectful for most Australians to have people climb over the AWM. Pretty sure this would be against the law.

There are certain areas around Uluru that are prohibited for access and as such is against the law to do so. This is due to the traditional owners strong beliefs. I support that.

Climbing the rock is neither prohibited nor against the law.

The question could be asked is their belief about climbing it that strong? Or sceptically put another way, is the currency of the dollar stronger than their beliefs?

I would have no real problem if they decided to back their beliefs and prohibit any choice in climbing, thereby ensuring the belief is as strong as it is pure. They have not so there should be no question or accusation of disrespect to those that exercise their right of choice.

D200Dug, you want to rant on about respect regarding Aboriginal culture and beliefs, come on down to the "Big Smoke" and just see how much respect they lend towards our culture and beliefs.

If you would like me to back that up I can provide you with as much evidence as you want.

'nuf said.

Out of respect for their beliefs, be they right or wrong, we didn't climb. Do I feel less of a man. Nope. It didn't hurt. I am not breaking out in measles.

Surely it doesn't hurt to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Phil

Pardon me for weighing in but there are a few things that need to be made clear. That the rock is of deep spiritual significance to the T/O's is beyond doubt. There are still many areas that are off-limits to non T/O's. The reason we are able to climb the rock is simply because it causes no actual issues for the T/O's. They never climbed the rock and actually shied away from that.

What is upsetting the T/O's the most is that people desecrate the rock in it's entirity by bleep ting on it while up there. It's a bit like dropping a "Harry Herd" on the front lawn area surrounding the war memorial. Not exactly illegal (providing you don't get seen) but offensive and inappropriate for sure. I received this information in a personal conversation with one of the elder T/O's.

It is this disrespectful attitude that will get the rock shut off from climbers. It was a similar issue that prompted the shifting of the toilets at Durba to an area outside the gorge (again an area of great significance to the Martu).

Cheers Mick

Well, my Commodore which I worked bloody hard for was of "deep spiritual significance " to me when I was a lad......But that didn't seem to bother the young lad that stole and trashed it too much......Each to their own. If they don't want to climb it, they don't have to....But if I want to...I will.......It's not their rock!! It belongs to all of us as much as anyone else....feel free to climb people....

Your comparison between your Commondore and Uluru is ridiculous. Uluru has tens of thousands of years of history , culture and tradition and you compare that to a very average modern day car. Are you serious?

Deadly serious......why should I respect their "property"....if you could even call it that............when they don't respect mine? A little bit of mutual respect........on both sides............would go a long way............

All,

please don't let this thread degenerate further. Two simple questions were asked. Please concentrate on those without the unnecessary "opinion".

Thanks

Modsquad

Well, I have discussed it with senior Angangu people and the reasons go something like this.
The climbing itself is not such a big deal, although they get upset about the defecation etc. The real problem is the number of people who have died on the rock climbing. Deaths on the Rock are very upsetting to the traditional owners. (I think the tally is over 70 now)
That said, like all things indigenous, you will get a variety of answers from indigenous people as their opinions vary as do ours. It is also true that it has become a matter of "respect" and simply an indicator to the indigenous people in general as to whether or not their views are respected by the wider community. So for many indigenous people (most of whom will not know the "stories" of the traditional Uluru owners any better than do the non indigenous people) that is what they go on.

Nothing wrong with that.Well said.

A bit of respect goes a long way.

Phil

The respect point of view is really interesting.

The number of people who feel quite justified in saying things like "I will show them respect when they show respect to me"


It would seem that they would never consider taking the first and most important step and being the first to show respect and understanding for others.


As one of my friends says "Aboriginal people have taken a pretty hard kicking for the last 200 years, you cannot expect them to stand alone and unassisted just because we said sorry we kicked you. Solving the problems will take as long as causing them did. We need to start now by being willing to do the right things "

Not climbing the rock will not cause any actual harm to anyone will it ?

...and neither will climbing it.

Off-track: What about all the people who have died climbing the rock. 70 odd I read. And you say it wont hurt.

Half a dozen deaths at an intersection and we get traffic lights. 70 deaths at the same one and they will totally rebuild it. It is a wonder that it is not closed.

Phil

Or rebuilt!

Better close all the roads then, they cause death! Lot's of it. Close the Snowy's, I heard a few people died there as well. Let's stop any activity that might hurt.

And it's actually around 36 not 70.

Any more for some misplaced hype?

You are missing the point. It isn't just a safety measure, deaths on the rock are culturally significant and distressing for the tradiitional owners.
I might have the number wrong, it has been around ten years since I got the figure however I think I remembered it accurately It included deaths from falling, heart attack etc Nope, hype it wasn't and why would you say it was misplaced?

Why are people so against showing respect to those who politely ask for it ?
The Anangu people own the rock, all they are doing is asking respectfully and politely that you respect their wishes, where is the real problem with doing that ?

Totally agree. Beat's me why.

I have had enough of this and recommend that we all give it a miss also.

Cheers all have a nice day.

Phil

Me too. In fact I had enough of it last time!

You enjoy your day too Phil.

I don't know about respect or what the real reasons are as to why some say you can climb, others say no, others don't care.

All I know is that when we rocked up at the gate we paid our money and were advised at present it is ok to climb so we did.

Someone has to make a stand, either close the bloody thing or allow people to climb with out making people feel some kind of guilt.
SOMEONE MAKE A DECISION, whether it be a politician or local but make a decision.

BS

The use of the term "they" as a collective for a huge group of culturally disparate groups indicates the level of ill thought racist remarks going on here. As for "I got my car trashed in the city so I am gonna climb Uluru"..... well.... what can you say. It is a pity a simple question has degenerated into this rubbish.

i agree with dreadnaught , respect is a 2 way street , the thing to remember is
the money from tourists , and the taxpayer money that has provided the
improvements . if there was no tourism the place would look like a tip .
have a look at the communities they live in !!
mechpete

So Peter If as you say respect is a 2 way street why not show the kind of respect that you expect to get back from others?

Would it hurt to be first and to lead by setting a good example ?

As I have said here before, this problem has been 200 years in the making, you cannot expect to solve it overnight.

Finding and implementing working solutions will probably take another 200 years.

It is going to take a long time so we had better start as soon as possible.

x 2 spot on Stephen L

Don't even think about climbing the rock after 10:30 any day, which is quite right as well. It is dangerous when wet and there are no toilets...

One of the most disappointing aspects of this great monolith is the miss information.

Yes the rock is closed if the temperature, or wind or cold or possibility of rain and high visitor numbers.

I am and will continue to be disgusted by those who use the top of the rock as a toilet.

Simpson can be damaged by trailer. People are in too much of a hurry and can't be bothered with correct tyre pressures, including camper tyre.

The few trailers the better in many way.

Using the top of Uluru as a toilet is not only disgusting but it is also damaging the very rare and delicate ecosystem


http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/tourist-faeces-killed-off-rare-uluru-shrimp/story-e6frfq80-1225781024819

OK so what are you supposed to do when it catches up on you without any notice - just do it in your pants?? that certainly isn't the fundamental beliefs of the 'custodians' of the West Terrace Playground in Adelaide who decide to do it in the kiddies playground rather than the toilet block only 20 metres away.....

You do what your mummy should have taught you and go before you leave. Pretty simple really

Or take a plastic bag and carry it down with you. Dog owners are mostly learning that they have to do this when the dog decides to squat, so it can't be too hard for people to do the same.

Overnight hikers in some alpine regions are requested to carry out human waste and there are probably appropriate receptacles on the market.

Or as get outmore said above, go before you leave or wait til you get back down to a toilet. Healthy adults should be able to do this...

BTW we climbed Uluru last year and I found the experience frightening despite the chain as it is just soo steep...and once on top its certainly not all that safe in places...or maybe it is just me who felt that way. I am a bit of a chicken in some places!

We would certainly not show such disprespect to the T/O's as to use it as a toilet, and because it was permitted at the time we arrived there, we decided we would do the climb but would not have been too upset had it been closed either.

For me, climbing it and viewing the land around from on top made me appreciate and respect the traditional art of the Aboriginal people (even more than I already did), much of which represents the land almost like a map or arial view.

I have been in awe of this amazing rock both times we have visited, and of the significance it holds to the original inhabitants of the area.

regards,

Heather

Is it ok to climb the rock after 10.30 if you go the toilet before that ?
BS

Hahaha Bob,

I reckon it is ok to climb the rock any time, so long as its not closed for some reason or another....so long as you have been to the toilet!

Regards,

Heather

thanks all for reply,just rang mt dare hotel and campers ok,as a lot go over it.Would be a long way back to get it.have towed over a lot of outback roads and agree about letting tyres down also showing respect for roads.Uluru we will face when we get there,thanks again.

Snailbait, You forgot to mention the numerous land Cruisers with factory fitted spare wheels under the vehicle. You can always see the "Tell tale" gouge marks from a cruiser that has travelled before you!!!! Yes, even the mighty cruiser has a design fault!!!

Hi Lindsay. Even in 1972 there were still a few places that were off limits. By and large you could walk and explore just about anywhere but there were a few particular caves and overhangs that were strictly verboten.

Cheers Mick

Peter
That's nearly as bad as when we climbed it in the early 80's the bloke that was with us as we were descending after spending several hours on the top was talking to a couple who were having a bit of domestic at the top of the chain, he wanted to continue, she didn't. He says to them, what was the climb up like, gets a weird look from them and then he says we came up in the lift that is down past the highest point cairn. We rapidly left as she started to berate hubby long and hard, why hadn't he read the brochure pointing out that there was a lift etc etc.

Ah bravo man if that's a true yarn legend i wish i was there.
BS

Sure did happen....like I said the look on there faces was priceless

Peter