simpson desert

Submitted: Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 19:27
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hi all,was told something disturbing today,was told no climbing uluru anymore and camper trailers banned on the simpson,can anyone enlighten me to these hopefully false rumors as we are going to both in july thanks,peter.
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Reply By: D200Dug- Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 19:37

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 19:37
You can still climb Uluru and will be able to for the future foreseeable future.


It is offensive to the local indigenous owners of the rock but they allow it to prevent people climbing over the more scared and more dangerous areas.

I have no idea why anyone would want to show such disrespect to the people who live there but it would appear that many people do.

Please consider flying over the rock if you really want to see it.

For us just standing beside it was sufficient, it is an ancient and powerful symbol I would no more want to climb over it than I would want to climb over Canterbury Cathedral or St Peter's Basilica in Rome. ( I may be an atheist but I still show respect to the beliefs of others )
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Follow Up By: Off-track - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 19:54

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 19:54
That is one of the most ill-thought out responses to climbing Ayres Rock / Uluru I have read. It does NOT show disrespect!

If the traditional owners were that concerned about climbing the rock then they would not permit it under any circumstance. The mere fact that they do allow it means that it is not an issue.

Or another way you could see it is that every human has a price...
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Follow Up By: Off-track - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 20:03

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 20:03
Actually I must apologise for that as I dont mean it to be personal. The belief that is sprouted about it being offensive to the locals is dumb. Again, if they dont like it they are well within their rights to stop it.

They choose not to...for now.
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Follow Up By: Whirlwinder - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 20:47

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 20:47
Mate,
It was part of the deal to hand "ownership" back to the local people that access was not denied. I don't think they are too keen on people climbing it but can't stop them.
I personally didn't climb, just admired and wondered as we walked around it but to each his own. I, too am an aethist.
Ian
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Follow Up By: D200Dug- Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 21:03

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 21:03
Off Track

Have you sat down and discussed this with the elders of the Anangu people as I have ? What expertise or evidence do you base your opinions on ?

Do you think Anglicans or Catholics would be offended if people clambered over their holy places ( and used them as a toilet ) ?

===============================================
"That's a really important sacred thing that you are climbing... You shouldn't climb. It's not the real thing about this place.
And maybe that makes you a bit sad. But anyway that's what we have to say. We are obliged by Tjukurpa to say. And all the tourists will brighten up and say, 'Oh I see. This is the right way. This is the thing that's right. This is the proper way: no climbing.'
Kunmanara, Traditional Owner
What visitors call 'the climb' is of great spiritual significance to us. The climb is not prohibited, but we ask that you will choose to respect our law and culture by not climbing. When you visit the Cultural Centre you will learn more about the significance of Uluru in our culture."

http://www.environment.gov.au/parks/uluru/visitor-activities/do-not-climb.html

===============================================


With the greatest respect I would like to see the evidence you have to back your statements .


Aboriginal people show understanding and respect for what has become part of our culture by allowing people to climb Uluru for the reasons I have put above, do you think it would be that difficult for us to show similar respect for their beliefs and their culture ?


It causes them a great deal of distress when a climber dies on their sacred site, it is shameful for them that tourists use it as a toilet.

Yet they continue to allow people to climb, they just ask that you choose not to.
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Follow Up By: Off-track - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 21:25

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 21:25
Facts:

It would be greatly disrespectful for most Australians to have people climb over the AWM. Pretty sure this would be against the law.

There are certain areas around Uluru that are prohibited for access and as such is against the law to do so. This is due to the traditional owners strong beliefs. I support that.

Climbing the rock is neither prohibited nor against the law.

The question could be asked is their belief about climbing it that strong? Or sceptically put another way, is the currency of the dollar stronger than their beliefs?

I would have no real problem if they decided to back their beliefs and prohibit any choice in climbing, thereby ensuring the belief is as strong as it is pure. They have not so there should be no question or accusation of disrespect to those that exercise their right of choice.
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Follow Up By: Member - Krakka - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 21:43

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 21:43
D200Dug, you want to rant on about respect regarding Aboriginal culture and beliefs, come on down to the "Big Smoke" and just see how much respect they lend towards our culture and beliefs.

If you would like me to back that up I can provide you with as much evidence as you want.

'nuf said.
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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 21:45

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 21:45
Out of respect for their beliefs, be they right or wrong, we didn't climb. Do I feel less of a man. Nope. It didn't hurt. I am not breaking out in measles.

Surely it doesn't hurt to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Phil
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 21:57

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 21:57
Pardon me for weighing in but there are a few things that need to be made clear. That the rock is of deep spiritual significance to the T/O's is beyond doubt. There are still many areas that are off-limits to non T/O's. The reason we are able to climb the rock is simply because it causes no actual issues for the T/O's. They never climbed the rock and actually shied away from that.

What is upsetting the T/O's the most is that people desecrate the rock in it's entirity by bleep ting on it while up there. It's a bit like dropping a "Harry Herd" on the front lawn area surrounding the war memorial. Not exactly illegal (providing you don't get seen) but offensive and inappropriate for sure. I received this information in a personal conversation with one of the elder T/O's.

It is this disrespectful attitude that will get the rock shut off from climbers. It was a similar issue that prompted the shifting of the toilets at Durba to an area outside the gorge (again an area of great significance to the Martu).

Cheers Mick
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Follow Up By: Dreadnought - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 22:07

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 22:07
Well, my Commodore which I worked bloody hard for was of "deep spiritual significance " to me when I was a lad......But that didn't seem to bother the young lad that stole and trashed it too much......Each to their own. If they don't want to climb it, they don't have to....But if I want to...I will.......It's not their rock!! It belongs to all of us as much as anyone else....feel free to climb people....
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Follow Up By: Teejay - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 22:36

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 22:36
Your comparison between your Commondore and Uluru is ridiculous. Uluru has tens of thousands of years of history , culture and tradition and you compare that to a very average modern day car. Are you serious?

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Follow Up By: Dreadnought - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 22:48

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 22:48
Deadly serious......why should I respect their "property"....if you could even call it that............when they don't respect mine? A little bit of mutual respect........on both sides............would go a long way............
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Follow Up By: ModSquad - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 22:55

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 22:55
All,

please don't let this thread degenerate further. Two simple questions were asked. Please concentrate on those without the unnecessary "opinion".

Thanks

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Follow Up By: Member - Mfewster(SA) - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 08:28

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 08:28
Well, I have discussed it with senior Angangu people and the reasons go something like this.
The climbing itself is not such a big deal, although they get upset about the defecation etc. The real problem is the number of people who have died on the rock climbing. Deaths on the Rock are very upsetting to the traditional owners. (I think the tally is over 70 now)
That said, like all things indigenous, you will get a variety of answers from indigenous people as their opinions vary as do ours. It is also true that it has become a matter of "respect" and simply an indicator to the indigenous people in general as to whether or not their views are respected by the wider community. So for many indigenous people (most of whom will not know the "stories" of the traditional Uluru owners any better than do the non indigenous people) that is what they go on.
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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 09:14

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 09:14
Nothing wrong with that. Well said.

A bit of respect goes a long way.

Phil
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Follow Up By: D200Dug- Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 09:33

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 09:33
The respect point of view is really interesting.

The number of people who feel quite justified in saying things like "I will show them respect when they show respect to me"


It would seem that they would never consider taking the first and most important step and being the first to show respect and understanding for others.


As one of my friends says "Aboriginal people have taken a pretty hard kicking for the last 200 years, you cannot expect them to stand alone and unassisted just because we said sorry we kicked you. Solving the problems will take as long as causing them did. We need to start now by being willing to do the right things "

Not climbing the rock will not cause any actual harm to anyone will it ?
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Follow Up By: Off-track - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 10:28

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 10:28
...and neither will climbing it.
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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 11:06

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 11:06
Off-track: What about all the people who have died climbing the rock. 70 odd I read. And you say it wont hurt.

Half a dozen deaths at an intersection and we get traffic lights. 70 deaths at the same one and they will totally rebuild it. It is a wonder that it is not closed.

Phil
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 11:11

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 11:11
Or rebuilt!

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Off-track - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 11:20

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 11:20
Better close all the roads then, they cause death! Lot's of it. Close the Snowy's, I heard a few people died there as well. Let's stop any activity that might hurt.

And it's actually around 36 not 70.

Any more for some misplaced hype?
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Follow Up By: Member - Mfewster(SA) - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 11:42

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 11:42
You are missing the point. It isn't just a safety measure, deaths on the rock are culturally significant and distressing for the tradiitional owners.
I might have the number wrong, it has been around ten years since I got the figure however I think I remembered it accurately It included deaths from falling, heart attack etc Nope, hype it wasn't and why would you say it was misplaced?
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Follow Up By: D200Dug- Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 12:06

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 12:06
Why are people so against showing respect to those who politely ask for it ?
The Anangu people own the rock, all they are doing is asking respectfully and politely that you respect their wishes, where is the real problem with doing that ?
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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 12:18

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 12:18
Totally agree. Beat's me why.

I have had enough of this and recommend that we all give it a miss also.

Cheers all have a nice day.

Phil
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 12:36

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 12:36
Me too. In fact I had enough of it last time!

You enjoy your day too Phil.

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: bob smith 1 - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 13:07

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 13:07
I don't know about respect or what the real reasons are as to why some say you can climb, others say no, others don't care.

All I know is that when we rocked up at the gate we paid our money and were advised at present it is ok to climb so we did.

Someone has to make a stand, either close the bloody thing or allow people to climb with out making people feel some kind of guilt.
SOMEONE MAKE A DECISION, whether it be a politician or local but make a decision.

BS
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Follow Up By: Bill BD - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 21:51

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 21:51
The use of the term "they" as a collective for a huge group of culturally disparate groups indicates the level of ill thought racist remarks going on here. As for "I got my car trashed in the city so I am gonna climb Uluru"..... well.... what can you say. It is a pity a simple question has degenerated into this rubbish.
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Follow Up By: Member - peter f (VIC) - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 22:22

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 22:22
i agree with dreadnaught , respect is a 2 way street , the thing to remember is
the money from tourists , and the taxpayer money that has provided the
improvements . if there was no tourism the place would look like a tip .
have a look at the communities they live in !!
mechpete
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Follow Up By: D200Dug- Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 22:34

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 22:34
So Peter If as you say respect is a 2 way street why not show the kind of respect that you expect to get back from others?

Would it hurt to be first and to lead by setting a good example ?

As I have said here before, this problem has been 200 years in the making, you cannot expect to solve it overnight.

Finding and implementing working solutions will probably take another 200 years.

It is going to take a long time so we had better start as soon as possible.
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Reply By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 20:18

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 20:18
Hi ann40

Do not always believe what you hear. This link is for the latest Desert Parks Bulletin issued the 1st March:Latest Desert Parks Bulletin

As you can read, it clearly states : "The use of trailers in the Simpson Desert is strongly discouraged, plus motor homes and caravans should never attempt this crossing"

As for climbing "The Rock" they close it at the drop of a hat for any reason that they deem unsafe for the general public, eg too hot, too windy, too went, too cold.......



Cheers



Stephen
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Follow Up By: Member - Tony V (NSW) - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 20:29

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 20:29
x 2 spot on Stephen L

Don't even think about climbing the rock after 10:30 any day, which is quite right as well. It is dangerous when wet and there are no toilets...

One of the most disappointing aspects of this great monolith is the miss information.

Yes the rock is closed if the temperature, or wind or cold or possibility of rain and high visitor numbers.

I am and will continue to be disgusted by those who use the top of the rock as a toilet.

Simpson can be damaged by trailer. People are in too much of a hurry and can't be bothered with correct tyre pressures, including camper tyre.

The few trailers the better in many way.
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Follow Up By: D200Dug- Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 20:49

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 20:49
Using the top of Uluru as a toilet is not only disgusting but it is also damaging the very rare and delicate ecosystem


http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/tourist-faeces-killed-off-rare-uluru-shrimp/story-e6frfq80-1225781024819
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Follow Up By: D-Jack - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 22:26

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 22:26
OK so what are you supposed to do when it catches up on you without any notice - just do it in your pants?? that certainly isn't the fundamental beliefs of the 'custodians' of the West Terrace Playground in Adelaide who decide to do it in the kiddies playground rather than the toilet block only 20 metres away.....
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 12:01

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 12:01
You do what your mummy should have taught you and go before you leave. Pretty simple really
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Follow Up By: Lifetime Member-Heather MG NSW - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 12:35

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 12:35
Or take a plastic bag and carry it down with you. Dog owners are mostly learning that they have to do this when the dog decides to squat, so it can't be too hard for people to do the same.

Overnight hikers in some alpine regions are requested to carry out human waste and there are probably appropriate receptacles on the market.

Or as get outmore said above, go before you leave or wait til you get back down to a toilet. Healthy adults should be able to do this...

BTW we climbed Uluru last year and I found the experience frightening despite the chain as it is just soo steep...and once on top its certainly not all that safe in places...or maybe it is just me who felt that way. I am a bit of a chicken in some places!

We would certainly not show such disprespect to the T/O's as to use it as a toilet, and because it was permitted at the time we arrived there, we decided we would do the climb but would not have been too upset had it been closed either.

For me, climbing it and viewing the land around from on top made me appreciate and respect the traditional art of the Aboriginal people (even more than I already did), much of which represents the land almost like a map or arial view.

I have been in awe of this amazing rock both times we have visited, and of the significance it holds to the original inhabitants of the area.

regards,

Heather
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Follow Up By: bob smith 1 - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 13:09

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 13:09
Is it ok to climb the rock after 10.30 if you go the toilet before that ?
BS
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Follow Up By: Lifetime Member-Heather MG NSW - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 15:03

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 15:03
Hahaha Bob,

I reckon it is ok to climb the rock any time, so long as its not closed for some reason or another....so long as you have been to the toilet!

Regards,

Heather
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Reply By: snailbait (Blue mntns) - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 20:28

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 20:28
The reason is that Trailers knock the top of the sand hill when crossing with the draw bar .

There is a likely hood that you will not be able to get over the sand hill and require help

I have been over the Simpson in the dry and the Sand hill were knocked about

With the amount of rain that is about you may not be able to get to Bridsville or the pink road house

There are big signs on the roads do not ignore them

Terry
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Follow Up By: ann40 - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 20:43

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 20:43
thanks all for reply,just rang mt dare hotel and campers ok,as a lot go over it.Would be a long way back to get it.have towed over a lot of outback roads and agree about letting tyres down also showing respect for roads.Uluru we will face when we get there,thanks again.
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Follow Up By: NTVRX - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 20:51

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 20:51
Snailbait, You forgot to mention the numerous land Cruisers with factory fitted spare wheels under the vehicle. You can always see the "Tell tale" gouge marks from a cruiser that has travelled before you!!!! Yes, even the mighty cruiser has a design fault!!!
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Reply By: lindsay - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 21:56

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 21:56
Funny this When I first climbed it in 1972 we climbed all over the thing even measured the kangaroo tail. No one worried then and there were plenty of locals hanging around. But the $$$$$$ will ensure that it will continue to be climbed. Funny thing last time I was there we sat at Maggie Springs and listened, as we sat there for a considerable time, three o'seas groups were taken on a tour. Guess what the three groups were told different stories and in one case the spruiker had an opposing opinion to the earlier speakers. I often wonder what was the truth or if all of it was made up.
Go see and climb the thing and remember each indigeonus family recieved $14,000 last year from the entry fees ect. Yes even the Alice Spring ones.
If they were interested in promoting their culture it would be worth their while being in the cultural centre instead of whites. I am not a racist just someone who has spent a lot of time there.
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 22:02

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 22:02
Hi Lindsay. Even in 1972 there were still a few places that were off limits. By and large you could walk and explore just about anywhere but there were a few particular caves and overhangs that were strictly verboten.

Cheers Mick
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trip would doubtless be attended with much hardship.''
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Reply By: Member - Outback Gazz - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 22:47

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 22:47
G'day Peter

As a part time tour operator who specialises in Central Australia ( for over 20 years ) I can tell you that, for as long as the white fella keeps handing over the dollars you will always be allowed to climb the Rock ! The only reason you can't climb the rock is when OH&S safety reasons kick in such as wind, rain and extreme heat ! I have travelled nearly 5 million kilometres in and around this great country and it never ceases to amaze me that nearly every sacred site, doesn't matter how sacred " ïs accessible " provided you hand over the dollars - it's all about the money ! When you get to the rock - go for a bit of a wander out the back of the souvenir shop where no-one else goes and talk to the local indigenous girls ( great ladies ) who sit under a humpy with paint and brushes knocking up souvenirs by the dozens and they will tell you that they get $1 to dot paint hitting sticks etc that sell for over $50 dollars in the shop - they knock them out at 1 every 10 minutes !

Now before some of the EO readers get upset at my post I will just say I AM NOT having a go at our indigenous cousins - just stating the obvious !

Enjoy your stay there and as someone who has been on every single track in every direction across the Simpson I would suggest don't take your trailer across !

All the best

Gazz
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Reply By: Bravo Man - Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 23:46

Wednesday, Mar 07, 2012 at 23:46
There's always a funny side to a topic.

I climbed the rock last year. Started at 9.30am and while I was up there they closed the climb. Gradualy the people who were up there came down but I was off exploring so for about an hour I was the only person up there.

When I finally slowly came down and passed through the shut gate with the CLIMB CLOSED sign on it in front off about 50 people I was approached by a few tourists and asked how I was up there when it was closed.

I replied that I had climbed up from the other side and hadn't known it was closed. The look of astonishment on there faces was great. I'm good at telling a yarn and keeping a straight face.

Cheers Peter
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Follow Up By: Ozhumvee - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 08:34

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 08:34
Peter
That's nearly as bad as when we climbed it in the early 80's the bloke that was with us as we were descending after spending several hours on the top was talking to a couple who were having a bit of domestic at the top of the chain, he wanted to continue, she didn't. He says to them, what was the climb up like, gets a weird look from them and then he says we came up in the lift that is down past the highest point cairn. We rapidly left as she started to berate hubby long and hard, why hadn't he read the brochure pointing out that there was a lift etc etc.
Peter
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Follow Up By: bob smith 1 - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 13:12

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 13:12
Ah bravo man if that's a true yarn legend i wish i was there.
BS
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Follow Up By: Bravo Man - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 21:01

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 21:01
Sure did happen....like I said the look on there faces was priceless

Peter
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Reply By: mikehzz - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 00:44

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 00:44
Tourists paying dollars to climb all over religious monuments is quite common and accepted as ok all over the world. That includes quite a few spectacular cathedrals.
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Reply By: Member - Bucky - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 03:09

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 03:09
You can still climb the Rock. But you need to be carefull, it can be dangerous.
By the way a couple of toilets, and a chair lift up there, would be good.

Respect is a 2 way thing, then the locals need to respect our laws in our towns.

As far as I know there is no issues in taking propper off road camper trailers into the Simpson. With low tyre pressures and a little momentum, sand dunes are not a real challenge.
Its the Average trailer, or ill prepared driver, that may not make it, and has to be rescued that cause issues.

CHeers
Bucky
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Reply By: Ozrover - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 10:32

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 10:32
Hi ann,
I'll stay out of the rock climbing discussion but will comment on taking a trailer across the Simpson Desert.

Yes it is strongly advised by DENR that you don't take trailers across the Desert, but it has yet to be banned.

The main issues with taking trailers across the Simpson Desert are IMO the extra stresses involved, both with the trailer itself, the towing vehicle & the environment.

I have had to recover/repair quite a few trailers from the desert as well as from local "roads" for example a group of people went out last year in a late model troop carrier with a well built off road trailer attatched, the trailer wasn't excessivly overloaded but it managed to destroy both leaf springs & tear the towbar off the troopy! $2500 recovery plus repairs to the trailer & vehicle!

I would put the damage down to a couple of causes, firstly the track was terribly chopped up on the approach to the dunes (people not letting their tyres down enough & using too much throttle) and excessive speed bashing up the trailer.

If people do wish to take a trailer across the Simpson Desert then they must be prepared for the consequenses, have lots of insurance & don't do it alone or with all of the vehicles towing trailers, have at least one vehicle in the group with no trailer so that it can assist with any vehicle that do have difficulies.

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Reply By: Wilko (Parkes NSW) - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 21:10

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 21:10
Hi all,

I climbed the rock but prob wont be doing it again, the reason is it is hard but I'm glad Ive done it.

Having married an semi Indigenous lady, she hates the fact that Koori get treated differently to the white Australians, Have sacred sites, of cause but why hand over the whole rock to the T/O's when only certain places are sacred, She believes the rest should be a National Park.

On the trailers in the Simo, I wouldn't and wouldn't encourage any one else unless they had years( decades) of experience. Its hard to do and you need to be on top of game to do it successfully and not damage the track in the process.

Cheers Wilko
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Reply By: ModSquad - Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 22:40

Thursday, Mar 08, 2012 at 22:40
Thanks all. The thread responses are now getting somewhat circular and it appears no more value will be gained by the postee. The thread will be locked.

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