States/Whole Country/Both - EOTopo 200K

Submitted: Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 11:02
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OK a question about the next update to the EOTopo 200K. I have been so busy updating the road data network and must inform you all that I think the release to be made on Monday will be 2014. The reason for this is that I have updated so much of the road data that I believe this is a major update. Anyway more on this later.

I have a question about what should be on the media, currently we release the whole country and a cut up of each state (NSW,ACT & VIC in 1). These 7 files are then done in OZF and ECW formats. It takes 14GB to hold this and name search. I am wondering if we should drop the states and just release the whole country single file in various formats or do people think the state based files are worth maintaining?

I am talking with Mud Map and Memory Map and some others and would be able to put more formats onto the single card if I removed the states. Also I expect to be releasing more specific sectional maps in scales to 50K as part of the product in the future so some free space would be worth thinking about now.

So my question is should we keep the states and the whole country or just release the single whole country?

David
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Reply By: Member - wicket - Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 11:29

Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 11:29
I'm voting for a whole country single file. Not really sure if there is any advantage (only downside from your perspective, extra work) of state based.
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Reply By: The Explorer - Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 12:50

Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 12:50
Hello

A single mosaic is best as long as you don't lose too much quality/resolution (because you may have to compromise file size (and therefore quality) a bit if you make one big map). If your single map of all of Oz looks OK go with that.

I think the only reason to break the map up would be from a performance consideration i.e. some programs/devices don't handle larger files if in certain formats (I assume that is why 250K comes as a series of separate maps e.g. with Hema map set, but don't really know). My understanding is that OZF and ECW are "paged" (i.e. only that part of map visible loaded into memory) so I wouldn't have thought actual file size would be relevant but not sure.

I suppose storage limitations may also mean that some people would prefer several smaller maps i.e. they may not have enough room on their current setup for one big map ..just a state or two?

Also keep in mind some map formats will not work at all on some devices if over a certain size. I don't know how widespread this issue is (may not be a problem for most if using OZF or ECW) - the only actual example I know of is that TwoNav Android version (possibly iOS as well?) wont read maps (in their own RMap format) over 2GB in size....so you have to break the map up or reduce resolution to make smaller file size. As mentioned I don't think this is a widespread issue (and not an issue for OZF/ECW?) so wouldn't worry about it unless someone raises it....or you start providing RMAP format for TwoNav Android users.

Cheers
Greg
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Reply By: WBS - Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 13:02

Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 13:02
David,
I am watching the development of this product with great interest, given that I had a fair bit to do with the development of the original Geodata Series 1 &2 product as well as the development of the NATMAP Digital 250K maps and printed maps in a past life. I wish you well in a very big endeavour.

I think you should have both the state based and whole of Australia files.
From my experience in using Windows CE based 7" GPS running OziExplorer, I have found that loading the whole of Australia as an ECW file took a lot of on the fly processing every time the moving map had to update as I drove a long which led to a delay refreshing of the map. The Zone based files in the NATMAP digital map product helped but to be completely satisfied, I made up my own data sets by exporting 250K map area sized files from the 250K mosaic in ECW format, then map merging 16 of them into 1:1million sized tiles in OZFX3 format. These are now my most used digital maps.

On my PC, I use the whole of Australia ECW file always.

A question for you regarding maintenance of the product:
With regard to map errors and reported problems, what formal way do you have, to receive, file, verify and implement map correction reports from users? Back in 2006 I sent a map correction report to Geoscience Australia regarding the junction of the Leichardt and Capricorn highways where the Capricorn Highway coming in from the west is not correctly depicted. I note the same error appears in the EO Topo product. Not a big deal but an example of problems you've inherited. I could list others.

I for one would love to give you feedback on these map errors and new ones I come across. It would be good to have a standardised process by which we could give that feedback that is both useful and easy for you to process. I'm sure others would be happy to provide input too.

I should state thought that in my experience your source data (Geodata Series 3) really was very good and in my travels I've found very few errors relatively speaking considering the age of the data.

WBS



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Follow Up By: WBS - Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 13:05

Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 13:05
In the last paragraph, I thought I typed "though" but I thought wrong. Sorry. WBS
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz - David & Michelle - Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 13:20

Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 13:20
WBS,

Thanks for your input. I have just done a massive update on the road data and in fact am sitting in front of the GIS system and have been for that last two weeks. I have re-done so many roads down to very close detail, this will be released on Monday at 2014 (I think). The amount of updates along the main roads is immense, Sydney - Melbourne was almost a complete rebuild, Sydney - Briisbane was a lot of work, new roads in the capitals has taken the most time. I am currently re-aligning the whole Bruce Hwy from Cairns to Brisbane and will be finished this today, Cape York was yesterday. The list goes on and on.

In terms of updates I am setting up a new email account for direct email correspondence. We have the User Treks system for road uploading, this is available to all users (not just members - I think, will check it still works shortly).

The process at the moment has been to clear up the User Treks database (ie: get out all the poor quality data). Then superimpose this data on the Roads, Tunnels & Bridges layers, couple this with Satellite and Street level online maps onto my GIS desktop and then re-align, import or redraw section by section. Add missing road names etc. and adjust the tables to suit my future needs.

When you see 2014 next week in the online system you should be able to see the differences straight away. It is a massive update and I just ran a query on the roads layer and have updated 4376 objects from the 460362 objects. Not a huge percentage but in terms of main roads it fixes the data and brings the main road networks up to date.

In terms of data verification, the process of user treks linked to satellite road data gets us very close. Of course high resolution supplied data is the best and we already have a great deal supplied in the user treks system. As an example also a member the other day emailed me a 17MB Heysen Trail update, as the walk track has been re-aligned recently. This is going in.

Anyway I must get back to the task only today/tomorrow to finalise the updates and I have a few tiles of the east coast Bruce Hwy to finish today.

Thanks for the input.
David
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Follow Up By: Member-George (WA) - Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 15:58

Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 15:58
Hi David, I have also sent you a small update to a track I recently travelled. Probably too late for your next update but keep in mind for the following update. A description is on EOTopo Review. The track file is still on EOtrackMe (GEORGE S) Cheers
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz - David & Michelle - Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 17:53

Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 17:53
George,
Thanks if I missed it it will be in the next round. Here is the update grid I have been working on. This is progress of the roads updates: Orange is updated to 200K scale, Red is updated to 50K, blank is not yet updated. The purple lines are the entire road network, the orange blobs represent dual carriage way roads.



This is most likely where the Monday release will be as I need a day of testing to ensure all the updates worked correctly and make adjustments. I must add the new Heysen trail this arvo and then move to testing.
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz - David & Michelle - Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 19:14

Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 19:14
George,
Can you do me a favour and save the tracking to a user route. I use the user route data for the mapping update tasks as all the data is in a single database.

Thanks - just let me know when it is done and I will check the update in the mapping and get it loaded in this release.

Others,
I have just loaded up the Heysen updates - awesome you can follow the walk track from the beginning to the end - it is one of the hundreds of new great additions to the next release.

David
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Follow Up By: Member-George (WA) - Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 19:31

Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 19:31
Hi David, all done. Looking forward to the next issue
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz - David & Michelle - Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 20:53

Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 20:53
George,
Is this where you mean? I am a little confused about the update are you say the Mt Jackson Rd (the red bit between your route) is now closed to mining and hence you went down and around?

David
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Follow Up By: equinox - Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 22:32

Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 22:32
Yep, that section is closed now.




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Follow Up By: Member-George (WA) - Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 23:05

Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 23:05
The old intersection between Mt Jackson and Bullfinch Evanstone Road is now intersected by a mining road.
The short (my tracks) leading away from the intersection, is where I was looking for a way to get onto the Mt Jackson road but all reached a dead end.
Where my track does not exactly follow the Bullfinch Evanstone Road, to the new turn off to the Mt Jackson Rd, is probably caused by my settings of 200 metres. Hopefully you can follow this explanation. Cheers
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Follow Up By: The Explorer - Friday, Nov 29, 2013 at 02:02

Friday, Nov 29, 2013 at 02:02
Hi

Main trafficable track is fairly clear on Microsoft Virtual Earth/Google Earth/ArcGIS Satellite..



Looks like the direct road/track going directly across as shown on 250K maps (and consequently 200K maps) is way out of date and has just overgrown (to a certain degree - possibly still useable if you tried hard enough) over many years as apposed to being a main road/track that was recently been closed because of some recent mining activity.

Cant see any operating mines but these photos are often several years old (but not as old as data used for 250K/100K maps previously illustrated). Good and bad thing about "old" maps..the track is there but you may not be able to use it...but then again ...:)

Cheers
Greg



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Follow Up By: The Explorer - Friday, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:01

Friday, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:01
while we are here ....the latest Hema map (Great Desert Tracks - SW sheet -2012 ed) is "up to date" with respect to this track/road...



The 2008 and 2010 versions of the same map show the cross track, but only as a secondary road...as does the 100K geology map of the area (Jackson Sheet - 2003 ed).

Cheers
Greg
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz - David & Michelle - Friday, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:49

Friday, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:49
Wish I could get this level of information for all roads - thanks guys. Here is what I have done based on your feedback and a re-alignment of the area based on Satellite imagery - this should be spot on for that junction and will be in the Monday release (unless it is still not right).



The lines into the area from the east are going to what looks like a dam or tank - here is the view from my GIS desktop with satellite view (BTW: I can zoom in much more than this but this view is already at 12K.



So there you have some insight into how I update the maps. Thanks again for all the input. If there are others please let me know. You will be really happy with the next release it resolves all the main city road updates and a few remote ones also.

David

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Follow Up By: Member-George (WA) - Friday, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:57

Friday, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:57
That looks spot-on. Thanks David. Looking forward to the next release. And that short road to the left does indeed go to a water reservoir for the mining company. They use it to water their roads to keep the dust down. Cheers, George
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Reply By: geobjw - Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 18:14

Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 18:14
The whole country is OK if your GPS has sufficient storage to be capable of being large enough to take the required file size.....this isn't always possible. There needs to be some format that allows just a selection of maps covering the areas of travel, we don't all need maps for the entire continent for our travels.

While state by state files are good if you're travelling within a state it could be a problem when crossing state borders if you haven't got the new state loaded on your GPS.

Why not investigate putting the files into zones as per Geoscience Australia zone maps? I've found this format useful when travelling as I can then just load the relevant zones prior to a journey.

Another format could be to divide the country into (say) three "zones", eg Eastern Australia, Central Australia & Western Australia.

Why have all map formats on the one card? Could you perhaps have a version with OZF & ECW for OziExplorer, a version for Mudmap, One for Memory Map etc & be able to select the format you require prior to purchase?

Some thoughts to ponder!
AnswerID: 522275

Follow Up By: ExplorOz - David & Michelle - Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 19:09

Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 19:09
Geobjw,

The Geoscience zones were sort of a choice however to make them work right required re-projection of the data into the specified zone - this was deemed a pain so we went away from this. You could suffer from the same issue of not having the right file loaded and in fact with the zones it is a little harder as you may not know what zones are what. It takes some working out what area of Australia Zone 50 covers vs WA for example. I buffer the states around the edge so you get a bit but not much from the next state.

If you are on a performance limited machine I would have thought you would load all state files so you have them all anyway. It is really a choice of one or five I think. There is no other major difference really - I do apply a little more ECW compression on the single file but the ozf is full format.

The reason for a one card preference is maintenance and stock. I could hold 100 SD for one and sell out of the other. Also when we update it makes it really hard. This is why I went 16GB and in the first round just filled it and decided we would work out the needed files as the product moved forward.

Thanks for your feedback it is all very valuable.
David
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Reply By: Sand Man (SA) - Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 20:15

Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 20:15
David,

A single file covering the whole country has great merit, providing, as has been mentioned, resolution is not lost.

One of the (minor) frustrasations I find when planning a trip, is the necessary problem of loading another map when reaching the boundaries of the existing one. This is the case with the NatMap series of maps using OziExplorer.

It would be a pleasure to just load the one map and plan an extensive trip, say from Adelaide to the Kimberley, (which I am planning for next year) without losing continuity.
Loading another map, you need to search for the point you left off in the newly loaded map before continuing the planning. Great idea.

I am used to the NatMap maps, having used them for some years and preferring them to the "general"Hema maps.

As the Geoscience maps are no longer to be maintained, I will certainly be looking closely at purchasing the EOTopo 200K maps in the near future.

Keep up the great work David. (It keeps you off the streets and out of mischief:-))



Bill


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Follow Up By: The Explorer - Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 22:13

Thursday, Nov 28, 2013 at 22:13
Hello Bill

Simple "trick" with Ozi if you are flicking between maps and want to find an area/point you where last looking at is to mark a waypoint at that location. When you load the next map the waypoint will be visible in the map view window (or use waypoint manager to take you straight there).

Takes a few seconds and removes need to look around - problem solved. Obviously a full mosaic is better, but not all maps are available in this format.

This method is also handy for flicking between different map sets.

Cheers
Greg
I sent one final shout after him to stick to the track, to which he replied “All right,” That was the last ever seen of Gibson - E Giles 23 April 1874

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Follow Up By: Sand Man (SA) - Friday, Nov 29, 2013 at 07:17

Friday, Nov 29, 2013 at 07:17
Hi Greg,

Bloody hell mate!
What a simple solution and one that had not occurred to me.

Thanks for the lesson.
Always learning hey!

Bill


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Follow Up By: The Explorer - Friday, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:31

Friday, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:31
Going OT so we may get in trouble but...I use temporary waypoints in this fashion a fair bit...in particular using these two shortcuts in the Waypoint List Box...you may already know this but anyway...



Select a waypoint from the list and click on the bulls eye icon - the map view will move to the location of the waypoint (assuming map containing that point is open).

The other icon (find map for selected waypoint) is great for opening up the right map for the area you are chasing e.g. mark a waypoint on the 250K mosaic at point of interest - open any 25K map - select the waypoint and click the find map icon and the 25K map on which the waypoint is located will open - saves looking through your map collection or trying to remember which map is required.

Cheers
Greg
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Reply By: Andrew D. - Friday, Nov 29, 2013 at 13:45

Friday, Nov 29, 2013 at 13:45
I use the mosaic on the laptop and the separate zones on my Android 7" tablet in the vehicle and my Telstra Dave phone.
The full mosaic of Australia in ECW or OZF3 or 4 has issues on low powered devices.

Essential to have both.
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Reply By: Andrew D. - Friday, Nov 29, 2013 at 13:47

Friday, Nov 29, 2013 at 13:47
Hope if you just ordered the order will be held for the latest update.
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Reply By: Member - Boobook - Saturday, Nov 30, 2013 at 08:25

Saturday, Nov 30, 2013 at 08:25
Hope it's not too late David.

Here is my take.

Separate States.

The reason is that some phones, like HTC One and Iphones have limited and fixed memory. 16G total in the case of an Iphone, of which there is probably less than 8G free. Same deal with some CE based navigators which are limited to 8G or 16G.

If you split it into states, people could load only the ones they use for a particular trip saving space. Provided they overlap somewhat and you don't need 3 maps to walk a 6 foot circle in Cameron corner.....lol.
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