PUBLIC LAND FREE CAMPING IN VIC UNDER THREAT

Surely you don't think this will only happen in Victoria? Once they start i'm sure the ball will be rolling in the other states as well.

Peter

The article Freecamper has linked is talking about camping in National Parks. Victoria still has a lot on free and low cost camping opportunities.

Motherhen

I see your point Phil, it’s not about the money at all, I have no problem paying for facilities either, if I want them. The problem I have with this is the potential policy of closing off current free camping areas to force people to camp in private camp grounds or public overcrowded, underserviced camping grounds, or worse still having to go into a ballot each year to see if you are lucky enough to win a spot for the annual holiday in the “bush”. The fact is that many thousands of volunteer hours, vehicles and associated costs are donated each and every year by 4WD clubs, Landcare and many “friends of” groups and others in doing fantastic work on public land including cleaning up the mess of a few who despoil our environment. The mess makers and vandalism will not change anytime soon but why the heck should I be made to pay for it? Or even worse be made to pay for the privilege of volunteering my time and vehicle the next time our club does work in the NP because we decided to camp overnight at our work sites. At present we have a choice about staying in camping grounds with facilities and paying for that, or going it alone and free camping with little or no facilities. What really worries me is that freedom of choice may be removed into the future, for no good reason at all other than to “control us”. I’ll tell you one thing if my dad and grandads (all returned servicemen) and bushmen were alive to see this, it would not be pretty, not at all. I can just still hear them now “So why did we fight? Wasn’t it for our freedom”?

"although the pressures which result from dirty and lazy campers is an ever increasing problem in many places. " - which was the point some of us were making on some threads before XMAS about education for camper & 4wd hire being compulsory and were howled down by the "Nanny State" barking dogs.

If we don't look after our own patch as responsible 4wd users, we'll lose it

And THAT is very likely what they are aiming to make you do.

Yep, the cost doesn't matter to us, but
Last month we camped at Bool Lagoon Conservation park - cost $28 for the night, the following night in Penola caravan park was $25.
Little wonder nobody else was camped at Bool Lagoon ....pity really....national parks are there to be seen and enjoyed....

One the things I really like about open forums are the robust healthy debates they can generate and topics they can bring to light that otherwise might be hidden from us. Contributors should never feel that they can’t offer up an alternative view to any topic, no matter how unpopular that view might be for fear of being ridiculed.

However if you put an alternative view you must be prepared to defend that stance.

Kevin may suggest that a simple google search of Dr Bill Garner would be in order before you attempt to bring into question his character or to cast a shadow over his bona fides, academic record and motivation, just for the sake of trying to win a point. This only serves to cast some doubt about your own motivation for taking such an underhanded ill-informed approach. Anyway I’ll save you the trouble here is a link to his biography.

http://profiles.arts.monash.edu.au/bill-garner/biography/

Freecamper, The thing I like about forums is that you can say your piece and leave it that. Often the best course.

But I haven't been unkind to the good Doctor. You surely have heard the expression from academia "Publish or Perish". A brief glance at the bio on the link that you provided (Thank you) shows that he understands the concept and has pursued it with vigour!
Cheers, Kevin

Your first two points are nothing more than attempts to shoot the messenger Kevin. They add zero to the discussion. Did you have any particular issue with what Garner wrote? I think it's likely that whatever the (probably outgoing) Vic govt does will be broadly adopted by Labor in any case.

Wrt return to the taxpayer there are numerous activities and facilities which are "free" to users and which are heavily subsidised or totally underwritten by govt/taxpayers. Think sports events and arenas just for starters.

The "messengers" were never at risk from me, Bazooka. In nashos I was transferred to the artillery because my rifle training NCO wrote on my report "He could not hit a barn door with a hand full of gravel".

With regard to your comments on other "free" facilities I think far too much public money is spent on sporting facilities. A former Queensland government used to build a new football stadium at every election. One of the reasons we are so deeply in debt. And further to your comments further down this thread, I don't think there is an argument for a chain of free caravan parks around Australia, or serviced free camps. Or a lot of free other things either.

Cheers, Kevin

You may be right that Dr G is trying to promote his book "Born in a Tent" but as it happened I have just read the book. There is no axe grinding!
Despite the title and cover it is a history of camping in Australia - from Sydney Cove, Gold Diggings, the Shearers Strike, co-operatives, the Forces, the Great Depression, the Tent Embassies and so on. Garner's PhD was on the history of camping in Australia and has won awards. The book is certainly not a big push into either free or paid camps but an insight into our (mainly European) history in the bush and why we love it. An interesting comparison is that our forbears in the UK, even a couple of hundred years back, didn't appreciate camping as we do. Yep, could be something to do with the weather.
The free camping argument will never go away - but it is such a shame that so many free campers are absolute grots who just provide ammunition on why camping needs to be "regulated". I have invested to be totally self sufficient so long as I can get water every two or three weeks - I never leave any trace of my presence and it really is galling to have to pay for the privilege. The argument would be a lot easier to run if everyone did the right thing when they free camped.
Ian

I'm not a fan of disingenuity at any time Kevin, and particularly not as an argument technique on a public forum. I have no doubt you're well aware that I wasn't suggesting anything like a "chain of free caravan parks". If you aren't I'm happy to disabuse you of the fact in this post. Plenty of taxpayer funds are spent on infrastructure which is specifically available to small sections of the community. I have no priblem with most of those because they (generally) deliver something worthwhile, directly or indirectly. But I do also believe that basic needs of road travellers have been largely ignored by governments of all persuasion.

Well, Bazooka, since you obviously have given this matter much thought, what would you suggest as suitable facilities for governments to provide for travellers? And should, in your opinion, the travellers be required to pay for such facilities?
Cheers, Kevin

Doesn't take much thought at all Kevin. There are a few good examples of decent lay-bys/rest areas on highways around the traps which would require minimal change to permit short overnight stays for travellers. They are well off the main road, have room for a dozen or more vehicles, basic shelters with seats, toilets and taps. "Out back" some mods would be required, particularly with regard to water and composting dunnies. Servicing would be minimal. I think I've made it clear enough that there should be no charge for such facilities.

Hi Motherhen,
Thank you for the warm welcome to the forum, very much appreciated and hope over time I can become a worthwhile contributor.
I only wish that it was a case of paying to camp in NP’s but to quote Bill; “ And the issue is set to broaden as the department indicates that it intends to introduce fees in state parks as well”. The next logical step is to either restrict camping on all public land including state forests, or ban it altogether. What worries me is that currently we have some choice about where we camp and if we want to pay for amenities or not. Under the proposals before us now that choice with either be severely restricted or gone altogether.
I am located on the Murray River in close proximity to NSW and SA. We often visit NP’s in both states and happily pay for the privilege. I must say that the SA system of purchasing an annual Parks Pass is very good value for money as the amount of information provided in the pass in substantial and relevant to the travelling camper, it also allows full access to SA NP’s and associated camp grounds.
Best regards
Freecamper

Sorry that should be 'not even road side rest areas'.

Dead right Tony. The argument should really be turned on its head and we should all be asking why governments of all persuasion aren't providing more and better basic lay-by and short stay out-of-town camping facilities for travellers right around the country. There have been some lay-by improvements along some parts of major highways in the last decade but nowhere near enough. Of course there are ongoing costs associated, just as there are with any infrastructure provided for public good. User pays is something which is inconsistently applied (even if you agree with it in principle), so I pay little regard to that "argument" in many cases.

Someone would probably know the figures for road travellers in this country but the miles covered annually would be enormous. Seems to me you can't be encouraging people to "see your own country first" while failing to do anything other than the most basic to provide some comfort to road travellers.

I'm NOT against paying a small fee for some water, security, amenities (and power for a higher fee). Some community groups have taken over recreation & showgrounds to encourage people like us to stay awhile in their small town. These I support wherever I can.
As to free camping, having seen what some back packers and other itinerants leave behind I can understand why Government bodies are looking to recover costs.
Remember also that one group of travellers would like all free camping spots be restricted to "SELF CONTAINED VEHICLES ONLY". This should be a bigger worry. (Our vehicle IS self contained.) This would then stop tent campers, most camper trailers, most caravans and some motor homes.
WHO WINS THEN? AND WHERE DO THESE VEHICLES DROP THEIR CONTAMINATED GREY WATER (AFTER 24 HOURS GREY WATER IS CONSIDERED BY SOME, WHO SEEM TO KNOW, AS THE EQUIVALENT OF BLACK WATER). I have seen some of these travellers happily release their grey water on the road way.
Stay well and stay safe
PeterM (Qld)

What do people think of this idea on free show grounds, roadside rest stops be it for a night or 48 hour.

In towns that DON'T have a caravan park, but may have a show ground or similar, or perhaps may have or be able to put a 24/48 hour roadside stop not far from the town, have a system or syndicate of town business that tourist of all types can utilise that offer a voucher to these areas to camp on a day by day basis.

For instance a tourist comes in my establishment and spends their well earned, in return I give them a free voucher to stay at the show ground, rest stop etc, then if they go to another shop they can get the same arrangement for another night, now these participating business in turn get your custom then the town doesn't miss out on an income and the traveller gets a free night or two.

If you have someone who doesn't want to use a business in the town then they can go else where and take their chances, I think you get my drift.

Phill

This has the basics of a great idea.
Probably needs a little more thought but I would support a town that has this system in place.
Stay well and stay safe
PeterM (Qld)

I can't say as I particularly like the idea, how much stuff can you buy? I don't know about anyone else, but I try not to travel any further than 300 - 400 klm in a day. This could work out costing more than staying in a caravan park/camping ground. It used to be that you couldn't camp within 25 klm of a caravan park, I don't think that applies anymore, in fact some towns provide free camps in the hope it may attract business. Caravaners/campers tend to pass on tips on where to stay, if one caravaner/camper doesn't spend in town, certainly some that follow on advice will, it's still money in the bank. Free camps provide competition and encourage greedy park owners to keep their prices within reasonable limits, remove them or remove them too far from caravan parks and caravan park fees will rise exponentially.

"how much stuff can you buy?" say set a minimum .... $10 or $20 worth of goods .... not hard. Most people are buying milk / bread / fuel / fresh veggies & fruit / grog / knick-knacks on a regular basis - wouldn't see it as an imposition.

I thought Aussi Traveller's idea has some merit

And that is what a rest stop is for - to rest until it is safe for you to drive again, how ever long it takes. Sometimes my husband as driver gets a migraine, so we stop at the first safe opportunity. No matter what time of day we stop, it is unlikely we will move until the next morning as we do not tow at night in case of animals on the road. If anyone insisted we move (unless for a real logical reason like we were blocking his driveway) I do not have to experience to drive with our big rig so we would not move; as simple as that.

If we found a campground that had a fee such as an honesty box Parks fee, we would of course pay, and would choose this over a roadside rest area to get away from road noise.

Motherhen

G'day Motherhen,

The issue is probably worthy of its own thread. there must be a responsibility to being safe and I'm not going as far as to say that this is the sole responsibility of the transport departments in each state I feel that they must bear a fair portion of this responsibility, seeing as they are the owners of most traffic legislations and continue to preach safe driving. Notwithstanding this I feel that I have a responsibility to be safe and if that means if I need to I will pull over.

All levels of Government dodge and weave this responsibility because it costs money but really only as much as they have made a rod for their own backs, such as health and safety, insurance issues, garbage and toilet facilities, on and off ramps as well as ongoing maintenance. Now none of these are essential for me but they feel a need to self impose these requirements which really makes no sense as they then desire to recover costs.

They clearly have been railroaded from the KISS principle.

Kind regards

How does the average person find out about calls for submissions I have often wondered. One might expect that if they were genuinely interested that they would post notices on forums such as this.

Freecamper,

I posted a message about this back when the call for submissions was released. I saw the original notification in a newspaper ad. I know many forum followers said they were planning to make submissions.

Cheers Hilux fan well done, without giving too much away I would have expected to be notified about the submission process as I work in a related business and have extensive networks who should have understood the ramifications of the policy, but nothing, none of us heard boo. This makes very suspicious.

Anyway more power to you and congratulations on bringing it to the forums attention and I truly hope people did respond.

Freecamper,

One site I have found very useful is a Facebook page called EPBC (Environment Protection & Biodiversity Conservation) Referral Notices (https://www.facebook.com/pages/EPBC-Environment-Protection-Biodiversity-Conservation-Referral-Notices/304130942973962).

It's run by an individual who keeps track of all EPBC notices and quite a few press releases from Ministers calling for submissions on various things. There's a recent one on wild dog aerial baiting for example.