Ayers Rock Lost

Submitted: Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 18:24
ThreadID: 135818 Views:6868 Replies:43 FollowUps:105
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Looks like another sad event in our history with access to climbing it to be stopped next year.

It seems cultural acceptance only goes one way - I don't object to anyone who holds a view that makes them not climb it , but it seems to hard for some to acknowledge that other views exist.
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Reply By: Member - Boobook - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 18:34

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 18:34
I'm in 2 minds about it Robin. Regardless.of the process, it is now officially Aboriginal owned land. So it is appropriate for them to make access rules.

Having said that I will take my youngest boy on one goodbye climb.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 19:10

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 19:10
Its a sad state of affairs Tony when any part of Australias unique places can be thought to be owned by and denied to others.

Hope he enjoys it !
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Follow Up By: Fuego - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 20:33

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 20:33
Robin,

I think you are overstating the situation.
It’s not really being “denied” to others as we are still free to visit the site, take in the views and walk around Uluru. Only one thing has changed and that is people are being required to respect the wish that people not climb on it.

If you want to talk about land being “owned and denied to others” just think about the possibilities of what you will never see in other parts of Australia particularly the big stations.

Through family connections in the beef industry I’ve been fortunate over the years in being able to camp in some stunning places on stations across the country. Whenever I’ve mentioned the tourist possibilities to the managers they are adamant that they will never let tourists in. This view also appears to be held by the suits in head office in the far away capital city.

I can see their point as these are working properties and tourist activity would be a nightmare for them but there is some fabulous country locked away from the rest of us.

Effie
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Follow Up By: Joe Fury - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 08:45

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 08:45
G'day Explorers

Yes ~ "It's a sad state of affairs ~ when any part of Australia's unique places can be thought to be owned by and denied to others"

If you wan't to experience this blatant form of ownership and total exclusivity, in real life terms try living in the inland Pilbara where the resource industry rules supreme.

Safe travels : Joe Fury
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Reply By: Top End Az - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 18:44

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 18:44
I've been there a few times over the years and it has been closed every time. Too windy, too hot etc. One time it was closed as it was forecast to be too hot, well we arrived about 8am and it was 2 degrees. Apparently it's closed 75% of the time as it is. I guess they just don't want people climbing on it. A sign of the times but I respect their decision to do so.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 19:23

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 19:23
Respect needs to be both ways though Top End

I was out there on a re-visit 2 years ago and I couldn't even find the climb at first.

Every mention of it in the park information notes and signposts was not there making it hard to find , the whole thing seems to have been manipulated to reduce numbers which it turn was used to justify closing it.



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Reply By: Member - Andrew & Jen - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 19:10

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 19:10
Hi Robin

I respect their decision and hope it is accepted with good grace and understanding.

It has been a long time coming, with the traditional owners requesting that tourists not climb it. However, this request has been generally ignored.

In that regard, I am surprised it hadn't happened sooner.

Cheers
Andrew
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 19:27

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 19:27
Unfortunately they have ignored the wishes of many Australians Andrew and I think that this will prove to be counter productive in the long term
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Follow Up By: Bobjl - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 20:31

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 20:31
Whilst I too respect Court decisions and the wishes of those people referred too as our traditional landowners, as an aside, I do however wonder what the outcome would be if say we discover remains of Hobbits in Australia suggesting they were in fact the very first inhabitants of Australia.
Just perhaps there will be a reversal of ownership/native title, then everyone can have access to Australias special places. Imagine if no longer we are allowed to walk Kings Canyon and other unique places, or we get to pay a premium to do so.

I have no evidence to suggest Hobbits or any other people were here prior to our Traditional Owners/Indigneous people, but........ who really knows?
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:56

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:56
Actually the book "The Savage Froniter" describes with references just such a history Bobjl.

Interestingly they apparently brought with them the animal we now call a "Dingo".
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Follow Up By: Bobjl - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 12:19

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 12:19
I was unaware of that Robin, so I now wonder why the cat has not been set amongst the pigeons. Where to next? uuuhhhmmmm.
Bob
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Follow Up By: braincell - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 13:33

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 13:33
the place will probably go broke now ,then they will ask for a gov handout
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Follow Up By: Sigmund - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 08:05

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 08:05
Only 16% of visitors now climb it.

Hardly any need to cry in your beer.
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 08:28

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 08:28
It has been forced down to 16% by regularly being closed for a number of dubious reasons.
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Follow Up By: rumpig - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 09:45

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 09:45
The amount of times I have heard people say the climb was closed when they went there is the reason the numbers are so low....wow what a surprise the statistics say that. Will be interesting to see if the number of climbers spikes next year as people flock to the rock for a last chance at climbing it.....sadly for many it will likely be closed on the day though, like it was on our last visit there.
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Reply By: rumpig - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 19:50

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 19:50
Have been out there twice and i climbed the rock the first time, but couldn't do same with my kids the second visit due to the climb being closed (even though it was a cool day and weather appeared ok to climb with a lack of wind etc...no idea why it was closed). I don't get the whole spiratual experience other visitors rave on about, so for me, visiting the rock is mainly about doing the climb...no chance of climbing means no major reason for me to go back there again, though hopefully I'll get a chance to take my kids there and climb it before that opportunity is lost.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:37

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:37
Its the only reason I went also Rumpig , hoping to go past it and down Gunbarrel next year so hoping I drive drive straight thru without having to pay park fees !
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Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 10:36

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 10:36
Just watch , as soon as the 'no climbing' becomes law you can bet your last $ that a ' supervised payed for climbing experience ' will become available....
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 13:25

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 13:25
Robin just tell them at the gate you are transiting to the GCR/Docker River and flash your permit.
They should just wave you through with no fee.

I've done the transit 4 or 5 times now with no issue.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Nov 06, 2017 at 17:33

Monday, Nov 06, 2017 at 17:33
Thanks John , I'll do that (if I'm still alive that is)
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Reply By: Dave Trees - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 20:06

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 20:06
I don't understand why so many people are seeming to lose their minds over this issue.
It has always been Aboriginal-owned land, only it took the Australian government until 1985 to formally recognise that fact in a "british-based legal title" sense.
Since then, the owners of the land have been very understanding & tolerant of visitors who still wish to climb all over one of their sacred sites even after being requested not to. Even now, they are giving 2 years notice of their intention to close the climb.
Pretty damn generous, I reckon. Would you allow the general public unfettered access to your property ?
Uluru isn't "lost" .... it's still there.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:42

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:42
Bad example from my point of view Dave as I do allow access to our 4wd tracks.


However the site is sacred to many Australians who have it in there genes to "Climb the biggest mountain " rather than sit in front of TV all day.

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Follow Up By: Mark O4 - Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 10:55

Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 10:55
Robin, Can I suggest that if people want to "smell the roses" rather than sit in front of TV they can walk around the rock and take in the well signed and explained facets of it. If they want to see the view then there are many helicopter businesses that will offer such a view from a far higher altitude. You can argue all day long as to who "owns" the area Uluru is situated within but at the end of the day the "white man's" court decided that it belonged to the traditional owners. This was the highest court in Australia.

Cheers,

Mark
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Follow Up By: rumpig - Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 12:21

Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 12:21
Do the helicopter rides come included in the entry cost to the park?....it's easy to say go on a helicopter ride, but not everyone has the spare dollars to do that. I can take my family of 4 up the climb for no additional cost, at a minimum of $150 a head for a 15 minute flight, $600 is a decent amount of cash to stump up.
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Reply By: Mick O - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 20:08

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 20:08
I've been up six times out of nine visits between 1973 and 2015. In a conversation with a Traditional Owner s few years back we were made aware that there are a number of things that greatly distress the T/O's of which the principle issues include any death or serious injury on the rock, taking pieces of the rock and people crapping/peeing on the rock during the climb.


That last one is particularly distressing for them and holds great offence (remember the first toilets at Durba were eventually burnt down by the T/O's in 2007-ish because they were considered too far inside an area that held significance to them and despite many requests, they weren't moved). It's akin to someone dropping the strides and leaving a 'Harry Herd' on the alter of your local church!


It's been a long time coming but is no different to the closure of many other areas of significance due to an inability to proffer appropriate management strategies. eg; how do you stop the tourist hordes from relieving themselves on top of the rock or chasing their dropped I-phone at breakneck speed down the climb face!

They'll get no argument from me.

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:16

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:16
I think that's a bit of a straw man argument Mick - we don't ban cars because of road deaths - we try and make cars safter.

Reminds me that I didn't see any Loo's at Mitchells falls recently - but I took a helicopter both ways - I wonder if I could organize that for Ayers rock in 2 years time ?
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Follow Up By: Mark O4 - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 00:42

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 00:42
Mick, Your first two paragraphs explain why the decision has been made perfectly.

Cheers,

Mark
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Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 10:43

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 10:43
Lets get absolutely real , A: it is not and never has been a 'church'.
B: Climbing does Zero harm to the rock .
C: Even when T/Os climb /climbed they peed and pooped.
D: The banning is only because there is no $$ in actual climbing and as soon as the ban becomes law 'supervised' payed for climbs will become the norm .
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Follow Up By: Mick O - Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 18:21

Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 18:21
Robin - A car analogy - really. C'mon mate. Just remember that it Uluru is their actual property. By your thinking, I can come into your back yard at any time, climb on to the roof of your house and take a crap there (What's the view like by the way?).

Alloy; Yes agree. Let's get factually real

A; - "Church" - is a building used for religious activities, particularly worship services.
The sacredness (read 'religious significance' there) to the aboriginal people of many sites around Uluru and of the rock itself has been well documented from the time of its 'discovery' by Europeans in 1873. Have a little read of the journals of William Christie Goss (19-21 July 1873), Ernest Giles, Richard Maurice (1902) and others. Even on my first visit in 1973 when things were a lot less regulated than they are now, there were areas that you simply were not permitted to go due to their religious significance to the local T/O's. - By those definitions, use of the word "church" in describing the rock from a Christian perspective is a suitable descriptor. Recognition of Uluru's deep religious significance to the local people was instrumental in Uluru being recognised as a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

B; - Not something I actually mentioned but I'd make this point - The poles that hold the chains drilled themselves into the rock then? Damage to the natural environment was an oversight on my behalf. Another good point to consider though.

C; - Traditionally the T/O's did not climb the rock because it was considered sacred and taboo. The need to climb it is something we Europeans developed a fascination for - No early explorer could find, pay or cajole a local aboriginal person to guide them to the top. It was something the locals didn't do. Edwin Berry as a member of Gosse's 1873 party was the first whitey to climb the rock and he scouted the route himself. Most other explorers used that route or a route already documented by previous visitors. (William Murray (Maurice Cambridge Gulf expedition) recorded in his journal of July 3rd, 1902 that the only place to climb the rock was at it's western end on the route taken by Mr. Gosse and his Afghans - The aboriginal members of that expedition would not climb the rock or even approach much of it due to it's deep religious significance).

D. - You actually pay for the privilege already in your daily park fee. "'Supervised' paid walks will become the norm" - I don't recall seeing that mentioned anywhere in any reporting? You are obviously linked in to the Uluru future strategy planning committee better than I (and most) by the sound of it because if you're not, your point would not be "absolutely real" and simply a matter of conjecture (or bullshit more generally lol).

Cheers
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trip would doubtless be attended with much hardship.''
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Nov 06, 2017 at 17:47

Monday, Nov 06, 2017 at 17:47
The view from my mountain is better than from Ayers rock anyway Mick.

So good in fact that I put a 4wd track up to it.

Now theirs an idea - you could then get up and back so quick the toilet problems would be minimized.
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Reply By: pop2jocem - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 20:49

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 20:49
If history as we know it is to be believed, all of the land we now know as Australia was once owned by various family groups we now refer to as the Traditional Owners, along with many other names.

Doesn't it so follow that the land our houses stand on was also once "owned" by the "Traditional Owners"??

Cheers
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Follow Up By: V8 Troopie - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 22:09

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 22:09
'Owing' land is a western thing. I was told by an elder on an aboriginal induction that Australia's original inhabitants are *custodians* of the land. The concept of 'owing' land is not part of their culture, its the other way round, the land owns them.

Being custodians, I would agree that there are some cultural significant places for them which should be respected by all. But its not quite the same as 'owing' the land which entitles one to lock people out.

If the original inhabitants would lead by example and truly look after the land and treat it respectfully themselves I feel such exclusion requests would be viewed more favorably.

Sadly, the mess I have seen left behind where they camped near the Canning stock route (I saw them leaving) and in their seasonal camps in the Kimberleys were absolutely disgusting. Let alone the rusting car bodies left on access roads, fringe camps, etc.

If they want everybody to respect the land they must do that themselves.
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Follow Up By: Batt's - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:57

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:57
Yes the real aborigines don't own anything they never have they belong to the land yet they still can claim land rights etc which is hypocritical of what their traditional beliefs are suppose to be but as usual anything can be twisted around to suit.
No it's ok to leave rubbish and dumped car bodies behind and the rubbish and mess in some communities. I'll still never forget driving through Bloomfield in the early 2000 what a mess rubbish in yards blow up against fences not just a small amount either it was a big disappointment to me I was looking forward to visiting a proclaimed paradise. It's their right their just giving back to the land and your suppose to over look these things and not bring it to others attention you may be labelled a racist.
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Follow Up By: William P - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 14:43

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 14:43
That is what they say but not what happened - all the different clans and tribes had their own territory and if someone from another tribe crossed "their" land without approval there was a good chance they would be killed.

Sorry they did own land, with borders just like we do - they just do not admit to it.
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Reply By: aussiedingo (River Rina) - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 21:15

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 21:15
Will Mount Kosciuszko be next?? both natural formations?
"the only thing constant in my life is change"




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Follow Up By: Michael H9 - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 21:29

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 21:29
You would have to go the big bucks and pitch for Sydney Cove. Another 50 to 100 years and you will have a raft of indigenous multi millionaire land barons when they get their act together. I don't mind that either, it may as well be them as entitled stuck up white fellas.
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Reply By: Nacho - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 21:31

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 21:31
Have climb Ayers Rock twice, once with the kids....glad they got to do it.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:18

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:18
I guess the next generation will just do it on their iphones
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Reply By: Nutta - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 21:40

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 21:40
Myself i have no interest in climbing or seeing it, cut the road off at the main hwy, don't give them any funding and forget about it!
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Follow Up By: Member - mechpete - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 22:35

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 22:35
Exactly my thoughts I for one won.t waste my time an effort goin there
See how they like the lack of tourist dollars
Stuff em mechoete
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Reply By: Tony F8 - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 21:45

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 21:45
I respect the right of people who own property, as most of us do, to restrict access, what makes Australia great, is the acceptance of different cultures. Having said this, there have been 37 deaths of people at Ayres Rock, now I know a lot of 4x4 parks that struggled after HIH collapsed, one thought is maybe the To's don't like the quote they got for insurance.
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Follow Up By: Steve in Kakadu - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 08:34

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 08:34
The Director of National Parks looks after the insurance policy.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:48

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 11:48
Apparently Tony most of the deaths at Ayers rock have been from heart attacks.

You would have to wonder how many might have been preventable if a positive approach was taken towards climbers.

E.G. Escorted walks up it !
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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 21:56

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 21:56
I think it is overdue - the reasons given by Mick O summarises it well and the number of deaths over the years is significant.
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 22:06

Wednesday, Nov 01, 2017 at 22:06
Came across this - so many Tossers are climbing the rock:
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-01/uluru-a-history-of-disrespect-atop-the-rock/9107750
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Follow Up By: Member - Boobook - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 06:10

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 06:10
I definitely think there should be an exemption for strippers.
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Reply By: 9900Eagle - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 07:09

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 07:09
Went out the back yard this morning and guess what the rock is not lost it is sitting where my sheds were. Bugger, I will have to ring the lost and found department and see if someone can claim it. If so they can bring a box trailer around and pick it up.

At least there is access to Uluru, I don't see complaints about Mt Conner were there is no access. Guess a different coloured skin family owns that, well not really as it is a perpetual lease.

Have a think about the country that is locked up by pastoral companies and many of them owned or leased by people from other countries.
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Reply By: Baz - The Landy - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 07:10

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 07:10
Without doubt this is an issue that has polarised the EO community in the past and without doubt will do so once again on this news.

Personally, I’m not so sure this decision by the Anangu Elders will have any far-reaching impact for most Australians or for that matter, tourists who come to Australia.

Some perspective needs to be kept on this decision.

As a group of people, the EO community travel widely, especially in the Outback and more remote areas in Central Australia, consequently this decision might appear to impact more greatly. But, this type of travel isn’t for everyone.

For the more broader Australian population, just how many have been to Uluru or intend to travel there and what percentage of those will want to climb it?

I suspect the number is small.

And to Robin’s original post on this topic…

Uluru isn’t lost – it hasn’t moved in millions of years and I suspect that won’t change any time soon ;)

Another sad event? Many will celebrate the decision...

Climbing stops in October 2019, not next year (so get out there and climb it before October 2019 if that is your thing – you are on notice).

And on “Cultural Acceptance” only going one way – this would be a moot point for most aboriginal people who have seen their culture decimated since the arrival of European’s. That isn’t to say that Australian’s of European descent are to blame for this today, but it does well for us to keep some perspective on this aspect of our history.


Cheers, Baz – The Landy
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Follow Up By: Member - William B (The Shire) - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 12:34

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 12:34
I have visited The "Rock' only once.

As I approached Uluru I experienced a feeling I have never felt before in any of my Australian or European travels.

I am not a spiritual or religious person but could feel something.

Did I have to climb the Rock to experience that? No. Did i climb the rock? No.

I didn't because the traditional owners had expressed their desire that we respect their wishs.

My wife and my 2 boys climbed, understanding why I didn't.

Would they do the climb now?
I doubt it because they have travelled this great land further and now have a better understanding of Traditional culture and an understanding of place.

Will I visit again? certainly, and not being able to climb will not take away how I feel about Uluru.

William
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Follow Up By: Mark O4 - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 00:53

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 00:53
"I didn't because the traditional owners had expressed their desire that we respect their wishes."

And this is exactly why we didn't climb it.

Cheers,

Mark
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Reply By: Sand Man (SA) - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 07:54

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 07:54
Having visited the Rock for the third time some three months ago, I can't see what all the hype is about. I have never climbed the Rock and have no wish to add it to my bucket list.
There is plenty to see and do around the Ulara region.
On our recent visit, we did a Segway Tour around the Rock. Quite unique.
We were camped at the Ayers Rock Caravan Park with our traveling companions, having a convivial drink and a bloke came around on a segway handing out pamphlets. The oldest and biggest member of our group asked a couple of questions and the next thing he is having an impromptu ride. Three out of the six of us decided to book a tour the next day and had an absolute ball riding around the circumference of the Rock and learning a bit more about local culture and history. An unplanned but enjoyable experience.

The climb was open and quite a few people were participating, but for me I don't see any special need. I don't believe tourists will stay away in their droves, because they can't climb it.

p.s. We had an outstanding view of the Rock from the sand hills behind the CP.
Bill


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Follow Up By: rumpig - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 12:10

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 12:10
The view from a top the rock is quite impressive also....i get that there's people that don't want to climb the rock and yes there is pretty scenery walking around it....but part of the attraction for many other visitors is the chance to climb the rock also, something many people miss the chance of doing when it's closed so often. The climb doesn't interest you in the same way a Segway tour holds no real interest to me...so maybe we should ban Segway tours also?...i know that's a silly comment to make, but people need to understand that climbing the rock is part of the major reason many people go there for. If it's outlawed I'll abide by the rule, but whilst it's legal I'll be happy to take my family there and do it...just a shame it's so far away to get there and it's a good chance of being closed for climbing, just like last time I was there with my family. I'm currently making plans for a possible visit next year hoping my kids can climb like I have done years ago, after the climb is closed I'll have no interest myself in taking my family back there.
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Reply By: Banjo (WA) - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 08:58

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 08:58
Maybe their elder's efforts would be better directed at stopping their mob from the car stealing, child abuse, house break ins, and relying on white fellas money etc than shoving it up whities nose.

Possibly an effort to clean up the filthy communities too, so that we can believe that they respect the land.

Our mob drink too many Lattes, addles the brain it seems.



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Follow Up By: Tomdej - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 14:04

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 14:04
Do you really believe the crimes you listed are limited to the indigenous population?
We have certain percentage of people who partake in anti-social behaviour, but that is not limited to one section of the community. It is not only 'white fellas' who pay taxes or give back to the community. There are people with varying cultural backgrounds that need assistance from time to time.

'Our mob" need to acknowledge that having less than pristine neighbourhoods is not limited to remote Australia. I have seen too many of our mob leaving rubbish at campsites, burning timber collected in National Parks, and treating the Australian bush like it was their's alone to have much respect for many of them.

I have climbed Uluru, but that was way before the request to not climb it. I plan to visit again soon but I will not climb it, out of respect.
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Follow Up By: Nutta - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 23:00

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 23:00
If you worked out the crime on a % basis it would be a lot higher than normal.
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Follow Up By: eaglefree - Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 01:43

Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 01:43
So are you going to provide the statistics or are you guessing?
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Follow Up By: Banjo (WA) - Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 08:45

Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 08:45
Australian Bureau of Statistics figures showed that Indigenous people accounted for 25 percent of Australia's prison population in 2009.[3] The age-standardised imprisonment rate for Indigenous people was 1,891 people per 100,000 of adult population, while for non-Indigenous people it was 136, which meant that the imprisonment rate for Indigenous people was 14 times higher than that of non-Indigenous people. The imprisonment rate for Indigenous people had increased from 1,248 per 100,000 of adult population in 2000, while it remained stable for non-Indigenous people.[4]

Indigenous Australians and crime

True or not? I can't vouch for the accuracy of the information. But I think it does back up the commonly held opinion.
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Follow Up By: Tomdej - Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 14:47

Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 14:47
It is true that the indigenous population are over represented in prison. What that statistic fails to indicate is the likelihood of being given a warning, a good behaviour bond, or being found not guilty. All of these scenarios favour the non-indigenous population.

Incarceration rates not surprisingly correspond with financial status. White collar criminals who can afford good legal representation do not often serve prison time and if they do it is not, I'm my opinion, commensurate with the crime.

We live in a country of haves and have nots. There are many good people, there are some 'bad' people. What we should not do is try to generalise about any group of people.

This all started with a discussion about the banning of climbing of Uluru. In Canberra you can no longer walk on top of Parliament House. Where's the protest?

Let's agree to disagree about the relative merits of closing the climb. Let's not judge a whole section of the community based on the actions of a few. Let's try to get along and stop getting upset about something that really makes little difference to our experience of life, and the future of our society.
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Follow Up By: Nutta - Monday, Nov 06, 2017 at 08:33

Monday, Nov 06, 2017 at 08:33
Guessing, and guessed right.
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Reply By: Iza B - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 12:31

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 12:31
Their land, their country. I am just happy to be allowed to visit.

Nothing lost. Lack of respect for the views and customs and attitudes and history of the traditional owners has led to the new rules. Instead of offering negative comments to the traditional owners, it would be more useful to have a go at the thousand of fools and dunces whose inappropriate behaviour has prompted the climbing ban.

Iza
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Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 10:56

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 10:56
Respect is a word far to often used , respect needs to be earned , how about the rip-off at the gift shop ,a 6' long skinny stick with 2 dabs of paint at 1 end for eyes selling as the 'Dreamtime snake' for the grand sum of $2000.... no joke.... what do you call a boomerang that won't come back ? A STICK.
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Reply By: skulldug - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 13:07

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 13:07
I have to agree with Robin.

The decision to close Ayres Rock to those who want to walk it is a missed opportuniy. It could have been used to help travellers better appreciate its natural beauty and understand the cultural significance it holds for some people.

Unfortunately, closing the rock to walkers will deepen division rather than contribute to our wonderful country.

AnswerID: 614711

Reply By: nats - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 18:10

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 18:10
Gosh! Ayers Rock/Uluru is lost?
Perhaps it is lost on some people whose lack of empathy with the traditional owners narrows their outlooks.
The rock is still there and it will be there long after we are all gone.
Nats.
AnswerID: 614717

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Nov 06, 2017 at 19:01

Monday, Nov 06, 2017 at 19:01
Hundreds of thousands of people have gone up their Nats

Perhaps that's where the lack of empathy resides.
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Reply By: Will 76 Series - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 19:42

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 19:42
I have been once to the Rock and my wife and I walked right around this magestic natural marvel and loved it, but it was not until we climbed it and walked the length of the rock, that I really appreciated the size and significance of it. I think it is a shame that this Australian natural wonder is not available for future generations to make their own decision to climb walk or decide not to.
As to who is a natural Australian well I was born here so think I am as Australian as anybody before me?

Regards Will
AnswerID: 614718

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 16:12

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 16:12
In the long term Will , I think those that shut people out of the countries natural wonders are shooting themselves in the foot.
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Reply By: Nutta - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 23:02

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 23:02
A mate of mine was never an elvis fan but went to graceland and came out with a lot of respect for the man, maybe its best to shut the mansion down!
AnswerID: 614720

Reply By: Paul E6 - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 23:28

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 23:28
I'm sure the rock would be something to see, but have no plans to as I resent tourist traps, whomever runs them.
As far as the spiritual element, that is something that is inferred. It's a rock.
AnswerID: 614721

Reply By: Stefandsal - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 23:33

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 23:33
We went & visited in 2015. I had every intention to climb. My then 6 year old (who could read very well) saw the sign & asked "dad, are you going to climb that"? as she pointed up at the rock. I said that I was.

She said "dad, the traditional owners are asking that people don't climb it, so why would you do what they've asked you not to do"?

I paused for some time & thought about my responsibility to her & her brother. "You are right Gab, I won't climb it because they've asked me not to" was all I could reply.

We rode bikes around the base & had a great day. Later that night my beautiful little girl, at 6, looks at me & says "dad, you did the right thing not climbing today, I'm proud of you".
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 16:01

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 16:01
The issue I have Stefandsal is no one should own or monopolize the unique parts of our world , its national parks who are supposed to preserve and protect them , and not cater to the wishes of a minority group.
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Follow Up By: Steve in Kakadu - Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 11:14

Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 11:14
Robyn, did you actually re-read your comment before you pressed submit?

The traditional owners were give their land back by a court that was appointed by a government that was elected by a majority.

Did you complain when Lord Alistair McAlpine bought up most of Broome and El Questro station? This little skunk of a man turned El Questro station into a money making over priced tourist attraction for the well to do, sure the plebs could camp there at a premium and use Zebedee springs until mid day. Because after mid day it was set aside for the privacy of the well to do.

If you want to have a whinge about people owning a monopoly on a unique place have a bitch about that.

I love the next line.
Its national parks who are supposed to preserve and protect them.

That is exactly what they are doing, they are preserving and protecting the cultural values of the rock. You may not know this but Uluru is dual-listed by the United Nations Educational Scientific and Cultural Organisation (UNESCO) as a World Heritage Area for outstanding natural values and outstanding cultural values.

Given that only 16% of recent visitors wanted to climb the rock and most comments on this and other social media forums are in favour of closing the climb or at the very least respect the decision, leaves you in the minority.

Anyway after reading all your unsubstantiated replies,I get the impression that you will fight to be right and if need be argue with a light post just to get your ill informed message across.

I also loved the post above about turning up for a second visit and not being able to find the start of the climb to the top, the start hasn't moved since it was put there and unless you are blind you can see it from about 5 kms out.

Fun Fact: The local saying for people climbing the rock, they look like Minga meaning ANTS.


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Follow Up By: rumpig - Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 12:25

Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 12:25
I thought it was 16% of visitors to the rock climbed it, not wanted to climb it...and that figure is that way purely due to how often the climb is closed when visitors are there. Not so sure all social forums are saying they are in favour of closing it, replies I read elsewhere commented on how disappointed they are the climb was closed when they were there. I also saw a NT news article claiming something like 5 out of 7 NT locals wanted the climb to remain open, so that is opposite to your claims....statistics are easy to trot out though, and can be skewed to say what someone wants them to do.
Regardless of what I wrote above, the TO's have the right to do as they please, but not everyone will be happy about that. I've already stated earlier I will have no reason to want to go back there if i can't climb the rock, only time will tell if I'm in the minority of people or not....once the access to climb is permanently closed, it will be interesting to see if visitor numbers drop off at all or stay the same.
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Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 15:57

Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 15:57
If the majority had been informed of the governments future plans on this subject before the election I doubt they would have been elected.
Dave.
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Reply By: ExplorOz Team - Michelle - Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 23:46

Thursday, Nov 02, 2017 at 23:46
I have visited twice and climbed both times. The first time there was no suggestion it was an issue but the second time they had started requesting not to climb but we were given the choice. As a complete atheist my decision to climb was because I love to climb and do physical activity - I thrive on physical pursuits and achieve great mindfulness when out in nature especially reaching a summit and gaining a unique vantage point to soak up the incredible beauty of the landscape around me. Given the opportunity to climb there is no way I could knock it back but if told it is not allowed then I have no option but to accept and have complaint whatsoever. I am but a visitor. Grateful to explore and experience. Don't care where who why etc.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 16:07

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 16:07
We do have the opportunity to protest about minority groups monopolizing the unique parts of our country Michelle , this is where divisions between groups begins.

I would equally argue against some billionaire buying manly beach or whatever and excluding the rest of us.
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Follow Up By: sastra - Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 17:55

Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 17:55
Many people including myself can make a judgement about their actions based on what they believe is the right thing to do.

We don't all have to wait until someone in authority makes a rule before we act responsibly.

I have been to Uluru and respected the custodian's wishes but enjoyed a wonderful walk around this special place.

If some feel the need to climb,try a few granite lumps like Beringbooding Rock outback of Mukinbudin. We did,great place also Elachbutting Rock.
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Reply By: Sigmund - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 08:17

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 08:17
It stings to be prevented from doing something you want to and reckon you have to right to doesn't it?
Welcome to the daily experience of Indigenous Australians.
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Reply By: Iza B - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 08:28

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 08:28
Seriously pointed cartoon in the Canberra TImes offers an alternative perspective using a parallel situation to Uluru. How about a tourist walkway over the dome at the Australian War Memorial so the tourists get a really good look down the hill to Parliament House? Taking a wizz or dropping a log, girls dancing around with the Girls hanging out, and the rest of the inappropriate behaviour seen at Uluru would have most Australians annoyed and calling for a stop to the climb.

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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 09:44

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 09:44
Just as well we don't ban everything where bad behaviour may have occurred Iza - still on the other hand if we did it would certainly ease the traffic situation in our cities.
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Follow Up By: rumpig - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 10:35

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 10:35
The Rock is hardly on it's own in the boat of inappropriate places people take a dump, i'd be very surprised if the cleaners at the War Memorial couldn't give a similar story or 2 sadly. How many times have we read on this forum of the disgusting toilet habits of others that people have encountered at varioius locations through out the country, The Rock is just one of many places this occurs at unfortunately
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Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 11:04

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 11:04
So the T/Os are worried about a few taking a pee or a poop up top , pray tell where their ancestors did it when on their 'religious climbs' that they are so worried about .
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 23:36

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 23:36
Did traditional Aboriginals ever climb Uluru? I think not.
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Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 08:30

Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 08:30
Thats just it 'Motherhen' , if one looks into the verbal history of the so called owners you get 3-4 different stories of the significance of the rock , 1 mob says young fellas were made to climb as a part of manhood initiation , another mob says climbing was for male elders only , a 3rd mob says the caves /overhangs were for 'secret' woman's business , another mob says it was a sacred meeting place for tribes Australia wide and other elders say 'its just a bloody big rock' of no real significance ........Watch and see , as soon as the climbing is fully banned , signs and 'bookings' will open for 'supervised and guided climbs' as a $$$$$ making enterprise.
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Follow Up By: Banjo (WA) - Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 08:41

Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 08:41
As they appear to be one of the laziest mobs around I'm not surprised they didn't climb it. If that is the truth.
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 09:12

Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 09:12
I don't believe Aboriginal people were rock climbers. It was climbed by their spirit ancestors. Whether it was climbed on any ceremonial occasions or not, I am not in a position to assess.

They lived a harsh life as desert nomads in a country where food and water was scarce, and that would have dominated. Their cultural stories were strong. They have a very different life today.
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Follow Up By: Baz - The Landy - Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 09:15

Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 09:15
Alloy, you've asserted a few times now about it being re-opened as a "paid climbing venture" in the future.

Personally, I doubt it, but who knows you may proved to be correct, perhaps you have the "inside running" and further information on this, perhaps you are simply speculating...

But why would they wait until it is closed in 2019 to do it?

Surely, the indigenous owners could do it now, or anytime over the past 30-plus years that it has been back under their control if that was the intent?

And on the different stories on the significance of "The Rock"...

I have gleaned from my interactions with aboriginal people over the years that unless you are a "black-fella" who is entitled to know certain information, you will never be told the story. That is their way...

Human nature suggests that truth will never get in the way of a good story, and maybe that is why so many stories abound...!

For me, I'll respect the right of the Anangau people to make a determination, at the end of the day, like it or not they get to make the rules.

I get it that some are unhappy with the decision that has been made, but a review of this thread indicates there are an equal amount of people that are either indifferent or who welcome the decision.

Maybe the pressures of living in the 21st Century are such that for many there are plenty of things one could get all "head-up" about - for me and evidently others, this isn't one of them...

Cheers, Baz - The Landy
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Reply By: Nomadic Navara - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 10:46

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 10:46
"Looks like another sad event in our history with access to climbing it to be stopped next year.

It seems cultural acceptance only goes one way"

Yes it does only go one way. We are not permitted to roam anywhere in or or climb around the cathedrals in Oz.

Get real, we either open the churches on Oz for people to fully explore or restrict access to other peoples religious sites.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 16:22

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 16:22
I think Peter that we are concerned about the lack of access to our countries unique natural wonders, and the negative image it gives to those doing same, not about wether we can climb some man made object.

On the other hand (being a professional engineer) I think we should ban all non-engineers from climbing Sydney harbours bridge on the basis that they wouldn't appreciate the engineering involved in its construction.
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Follow Up By: Baz - The Landy - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 19:31

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 19:31
Robin, no one is being denied access to Uluru by this decision, the only thing that changes in October 2019 is you won’t be able to climb it...

I think it is worth keeping that in mind.

But on the Sydney Harbour bridge climb, I have little doubt that if there were the same number of deaths (36) as there have been from falls on Uluru you wouldn’t be allowed to climb it either...

Cheers, Baz - The Landy
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 19:43

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 19:43
That's the point Baz - many will be denied the challenge of an adventure and the achievement (as per Michelle above) with their kids or friends and will also retain resentment when we should be building bridges not tearing them down !


By the way the majority of deaths are not falls but heart attacks , many not even on the rock.
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Follow Up By: Baz - The Landy - Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 09:36

Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 09:36
Hi Robin

Plenty of challenges exist in Australia if climbing is your thing, in fact much in your own backyard in Victoria.

On resentment, it is a word we've removed from our vocabulary - we find you live a much better life if you don't go around resenting things or others regardless of the circumstances...

But on the majority of deaths on the rock, if you want to add in heart attacks resulting from climbing 'the rock' the number increases as a ten-fold multiple of the number I quoted. From what I've seen on visits to Uluru there are a lot of people climbing it blissfully unaware of the risks they are taking without the right precautions...

A day would not go by without someone doing injury to themselves. Mind you, I'm all for adventure and have an outlook quoted below, but that isn't to say I am cavalier about it either.

Cheers, Baz - The Landy
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Reply By: Michael H9 - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 21:40

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 21:40
At the end of the day, it's a hallmark of a free country, that if you own the land, then you are free to do what you like within certain parameters provided by your elected government. Therefore, we must respect the decision whatever the reason. We have no freedom to tell land owners what they should do with their land. If we did, it would be a pretty ordinary free country.
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Reply By: Motherhen - Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 23:48

Friday, Nov 03, 2017 at 23:48
When did this push to stop the climbs start? Wasn't there a time when no-one was offended by climbers?

I fully intended to do the climb, wanting to go while I was fit enough to climb Uluru, but when reading the signs, respected their wishes and did not climb. We both walked and drove right around.

Signs tell us

"Listen! If you get hurt or die, your mother, father and family will really cry and we will be really sad too. So think about it and stay on the ground."

"What visitors call 'the climb' is the traditional route taken by ancestral Mala men upon their arrival at Uluru in the creation time. It has great spiritual significance."

So many rocks, hills and streams throughout Australia have creation, dreamtime or the dreaming stories and significance.
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Follow Up By: Banjo (WA) - Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 08:54

Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 08:54
'So many rocks, hills and streams throughout Australia have creation, dreamtime or the dreaming stories and significance.'

Funny how all these significant sites pop up when development is attempted.
Ahh, but give me a fistfull of money and it will be OK.

Anyway is the tooth fairy real. The dreamtime stories (such a nice description) are just a childish view of the world.
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Follow Up By: Motherhen - Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 09:03

Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 09:03
The Dreaming may seem like childhood stories to us, "why is it so" stories about creation, but every culture and religion is based on a version of creation. I respect each one in their belief, even if it is different to mine.
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew & Jen - Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 10:28

Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 10:28
Well said Motherhen

I am about half way through "Sapiens - a brief history of humankind", a book that has been acclaimed around the world and been translated into more than 30 languages.

Every cultural group has had their creation stories, their shared myths that give them the means to operate as a cohesive group in the pursuit of a common future. We are no different.

Jen and I intend to travel to Canberra to see an exhibition at the National Museum on "Songlines: Tracking the Seven Sisters" which is on until the 25t of Feb 2018.

For those of you who can't make it, there was an excellent article by Paul Daley in the Guardian on 16/09/17 - "Songlines at the NMA: a breathtaking triumph of 21st century museology"

Cheers
Andrew
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Follow Up By: ExplorOz Team - Michelle - Tuesday, Nov 07, 2017 at 16:38

Tuesday, Nov 07, 2017 at 16:38
Ah I've read that book too!
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Reply By: swampy - Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 17:30

Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 17:30
Hi
I doubt the people who made this decision were genuine and did so without influence from people, with potential future interest .

If it gets shut down for only one half of the community to enjoy, this could set relations back years .
Very bad decision made by those concerned !

The only people who should make a decision should be the NT people, black and white .
AnswerID: 614769

Follow Up By: Michael H9 - Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 18:34

Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 18:34
That assumes that the people of the NT own it. They do not, there's your stumbling block and the reason there should be no complaints about the decision. I've climbed it back in the day before all this ruckus, anything religious falls on deaf ears as far as I'm concerned, it's hogwash. Ownership and people's right to control their little part of the world is however a big deal for me. Therefore I must respect their disappointing decision. I have to admit that the dreamtime baloney seems a rather comical reason for it in my mind. Also, the current guilt trip situation is fairly wishy washy, I'm glad a firm decision has been made.
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Reply By: sastra - Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 18:22

Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 18:22
Let's open our eyes people. There are many places where the desperate - " I must climb it to prove something people" - have limited access to challenges which exist on station country run by whitefellas.

No criticism of the very nice couple doing a great job at Wooleen Station but on our stay back a couple of years I enquired how I could get out to the granites in our 4wd and was told access was by bus in a station run sunset tour.

Disappointed we were but this limitation was the owners' prerogative and Robin and all the other sad potential Sherpa Tenzings would also have had to respect and conform to their rule as we did without tears.

~ ~
' \'
\/
AnswerID: 614770

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Nov 06, 2017 at 16:57

Monday, Nov 06, 2017 at 16:57
Life is about setting goals and striving to achieve Sastra , those who don't just get left behind.
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Reply By: Member - Scrubby (VIC) - Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 21:42

Saturday, Nov 04, 2017 at 21:42
In April 1964 myself and three mates camped overnight approximately half a kilometer from the base of Ayres Rock, we camped there mainly because the aboriginal "ranger" advised us if we were intending to clime it to get an early start in the morning and to wear thick socks and desert boots if we had them,this would help prevent getting sore toes when descending. He also told us where to start the climb and to stick to the "path" that was worn on the surface. There was no chain or white line and no signage to guide you in the right direction and certainly no sign suggesting not to climb it.
We did what he advised and enjoyed the climb, we wrote our names over others on the large board that was on the highest part with the large pencil that was attached to the board with string.
We met up with the same fellow later in the day and thanked him for his good advise.
I have been there twice since then but didn`t climb it, I doubt if I will go there again.

Scrubby.
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Reply By: eaglefree - Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 01:54

Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 01:54
For those that feel robbed of the view on top of the rock go one better. Instead of climbing it catch a helicopter fight. Worth every penny.

As for the gift shop...no one is forcing tourists to buy anything.

Im happy they will stop the climb. Im also very proud of the indigenous people, their attempts to preserve their sacred lands and their desire to share their culture. Our mostly white filled cities arent filled with angels.
AnswerID: 614777

Follow Up By: rumpig - Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 08:29

Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 08:29
Have done a helicopter flight and gotta say I preferred to do the climb, seemed more rewarding to me then just sitting in a seat looking out the window, and was a heck of a lot cheaper to do also....but each to their own. A shame the flights have to stay so far away from certain areas also, but atleast that means when you climb the rock you don't have helicopters buzzing directly above you, so that's a plus.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Nov 06, 2017 at 16:48

Monday, Nov 06, 2017 at 16:48
I don't mind getting a helicopter and landing at the top , if it helps things out.
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Reply By: Member - John and Lynne - Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 14:44

Sunday, Nov 05, 2017 at 14:44
Surely people have more to worry about than landowners preventing people from climbing Uluru! There are plenty of other things to see and do in the area. You can even learn a bit about the aboriginal history of the area and be impressed by the training and employment opportunities being developed for the local people. This might actually be a more interesting activity in the end than just climbing something "because it is there' or to prove how you don't give a damn for another culture's beliefs.
It is really no different in the end from the entitlements of any landowner. I know of at least one important historic house in Brisbane which many people would be very interested in visiting. The owners could, no doubt, make a lot of money from offering tours. However they have not only refused to allow any visitors but have built a high (and ugly) fence around it so people cannot see the house or photograph it from the footpath. This disappoints many people but no one disputes their right to do this. Lynne
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Nov 06, 2017 at 16:46

Monday, Nov 06, 2017 at 16:46
Hundreds of thousand of people have climbed Ayers rock John/Lynne, just as many would climb it in the future if they could , but in your words some don't give adam for another cultures beliefs.
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Reply By: Dusty D - Monday, Nov 06, 2017 at 07:45

Monday, Nov 06, 2017 at 07:45
A lot of passion has gone into some of the comments made by people opposed to banning the climb and it is plain to see that they obviously believe that they are 'losing' something.

It is a shame that the same passion is not applied to the loss of the Great Barrier Reef which is definitely on the brink of being 'lost'. Uluru will always be there, the GBR may not be.

Dusty
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Follow Up By: GREG T11 - Monday, Nov 06, 2017 at 20:19

Monday, Nov 06, 2017 at 20:19
Where did you hear that, or have you seen it for yourself ?
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Follow Up By: Dusty D - Tuesday, Nov 07, 2017 at 07:34

Tuesday, Nov 07, 2017 at 07:34
Greg, not only have I heard it from a reliable source (a family member who works as a marine biologist specialising in coral reef studies), but I have also seen it in a flight from Townsville to the tip of Cape York in August this year.

The top 2 thirds (approx 1500 kms) of the GBR has suffered major coral bleaching in the past 2 years bought about by global warming causing an increase in sea temperature. On top of back to back record sea temperatures in 2016/2017, the reef in places where very little or no bleaching occurred was hit by Cyclone Debbie in March this year, a large slow moving extreme weather event that had a devastating effect.

We can't do anything to lessen the impact of cyclones on the reef, but it is certainly within the power of the human race to reduce carbon emissions into the atmosphere which is the principal cause of global warming - no other critter on the planet is going to do it.

Dusty
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Follow Up By: Idler Chris - Tuesday, Nov 07, 2017 at 08:30

Tuesday, Nov 07, 2017 at 08:30
The planet earth has never been the same temperature over millions of years. Over time sometimes it is getting hotter and sometimes it is getting cooler, nothing new here.

Chris
What other people think of me is none of my business.
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Follow Up By: Banjo (WA) - Tuesday, Nov 07, 2017 at 08:54

Tuesday, Nov 07, 2017 at 08:54
Didn't the aborigines get here by walking over land?

That was before the water levels rose?

Wasn't that thousands of years ago?

They must have had some huge fires to cause the ice to melt back then.

and here's me thinking they had respect for the environment.
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Follow Up By: Dusty D - Tuesday, Nov 07, 2017 at 13:16

Tuesday, Nov 07, 2017 at 13:16
"...........sometimes it is getting hotter and sometimes it is getting cooler, nothing new here."

And here I was thinking that the majority of the planets climate scientists had got it right that we have contributed to global warming in a big way with increased carbon emissions and you had the answer all along, Idler Chris.

Hmmm, you should have spoken out earlier.

Dusty
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Follow Up By: sastra - Tuesday, Nov 07, 2017 at 16:56

Tuesday, Nov 07, 2017 at 16:56
Dusty, looks like you're out of your league mate!
There appears to be many Mensa members on this forum. Doh!
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Follow Up By: Michael H9 - Tuesday, Nov 07, 2017 at 19:52

Tuesday, Nov 07, 2017 at 19:52
My theory is that the last great climate change was caused by dinosaurs farting. It doesn't matter how the carbon is dispersed....
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 08:32

Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 08:32
All I ask from the believers in climate change is, which part of the Industrial Revolution was responsible for the Ice Age?
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Follow Up By: rumpig - Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 08:45

Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 08:45
It was likely before camping refrigerators were popular and there used to be all those ice works places about that you could go buy your ice from. I myself don't think it's a coincidence that the earth warming up has happened at the same time the ice works businesses have disappeared
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 21:09

Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 21:09
You appear to have the bull by the tail Shaker. Studies (based on relatively sketchy data compared to todays very well researched climate information and models) suggest that pollution from the industrial revolution (on a planet with far fewer people and far less CO2 production) may have helped end the Little Ice Age - or at least affected glaciers.
*IF* you and other skeptics really want to understand the arguments, issues, and state of the science I suggest that you spend a few hours regularly reading the skepticalscience.com website, including some of the discussion on more contentious points (in thecomments below the myth explanations).
The Little Ice Age is covered here: Little Ice Age.
It's "all a natural cycle" was one of the first myths exposed - that's head in the sand (or vice-versa) stuff.
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Follow Up By: William P - Thursday, Nov 09, 2017 at 12:00

Thursday, Nov 09, 2017 at 12:00
This thread is about the closing of the Rock to walkers. It has nothing to do with global warming, dinosaurs farting or the reef - yes all important topics in their own right but not all that relevant to climbing the Rock.
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Thursday, Nov 09, 2017 at 20:19

Thursday, Nov 09, 2017 at 20:19
Thanks William P. We'd have never known without your comment. Threads take many twists and turns and often the most interesting are those which open our eyes to new information. I was simply correcting an obviously erroneous statement.

The arguments re the climb have all pretty much been made (other private land restrictions, the indigenous cultural sensibilities, safety etc), one or two with obvious racist overtones, but for the record I think it's no big deal and the traditional owners are quite within their rights to stop the climb. I've climbed Uluru twice, both well before the request to not do so existed. I didn't go there to climb, I went to experience 'the rock' (and King's Canyon). Very few if any cultural guided tours existed at the time but we also did self-guided perimeter walks to learn what we could about traditional beliefs and customs. Not that it's particularly relevant but Kata Tjuta is a more interesting place imo and afaik you've never been permitted to climb there.
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Reply By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 12:17

Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 12:17
.
What a passionate subject......... World Champion Chest Beating.

Over 3700 'Views' and 117 'Responses" to date. Is this a record?

All over a climb up a flamin' rock!!!!!

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 13:45

Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 13:45
"All over a climb up a flamin' rock!!!!!"

Perhaps it has more to do with the right of all Australians to have access to their country without having to pay or apply for a permit.
Dave.
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 14:51

Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 14:51
.
See what I mean?
Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 15:02

Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 15:02
No.? See what I mean. :)
Dave.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 16:53

Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 16:53
Now Allan - don't do what some others have done and downplay it.

It isn't just a rock - its "the" rock , argueably the most significant rock in the world and this is the key reason why hundreds of thousand of people have climbed it.

Robin Miller

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Follow Up By: sastra - Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 18:23

Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 18:23
"Life is about setting goals and striving to achieve Sastra , those who don't just get left behind."
Survivor -Top Crossing Hut Trk
Robin Miller

Sounding very much like setting goals and striving to achieve them is causing Robin and many other "would be climbers" a great deal of heartache.

Let's all have a great big cry and whinge about all the places on station properties which are no-go zones because they said keep out.

This has been said before on this thread without response from the Sherpa Tenzings.
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Follow Up By: Baz - The Landy - Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 18:44

Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 18:44
Robin...

Reading your most recent post on the topic one could be forgiven for thinking you have ‘jumped camp’ - you are right, it is one of the most significant rocks in the world, both from a physical and spiritual presence in the eyes of many...

Your understanding possibly goes some way to explaining why many have no issue with the decision made...

Cheers, Baz - The Landy
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Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 19:42

Wednesday, Nov 08, 2017 at 19:42
While "many" may have no issue with the decision Baz I think you might find the majority have.
Dave.
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Follow Up By: Member - John and Lynne - Thursday, Nov 09, 2017 at 18:08

Thursday, Nov 09, 2017 at 18:08
What majority? A majority of what group in the population? What reputable research produced the statement that the "majority" decry the right of traditional and legal owners to control their own property even if it is this rock? Some responders seem to suggest that denying entry to property by station owners, mining companies or householders is acceptable but not if they are aboriginal! Why would that be? Lynne
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Reply By: Baz - The Landy - Thursday, Nov 09, 2017 at 09:23

Thursday, Nov 09, 2017 at 09:23
In recent days there has been outrage in Australia over a proposal by a French company to build a number of wind turbines at Bullecourt in France.

In April and May of 1917, 10,200 Australians were dead, missing or taken prisoner in two battles at Bullecourt trying to break the Hindenburg Line.

From the outset, let me state my view and position on this – I am 100% against this proposal and implore the Australian Government to make representations at the highest levels in France to request this not be allowed to proceed.

And my reason is most likely much the same as fellow Australians – this is a site of "great significance" for the Australian people; for us as a Nation, perhaps the term “sacred” can be used to better demonstrate and underscore our view.

Reflecting on this development I thought to the debate that has developed on ExplorOz over the news that Uluru will be closed to climbing from October 2019.

The Anangau Elders put forward the proposition that Uluru is a site of “great significant” to their people; a “sacred” site.

I ponder the question what is the position of those who argue against the decision to ban climbing on Uluru in respect of this proposal in France?

It is almost irrelevant the use France are wanting to put this field to, it could be a sports field, a high rise tower, anything.

The issue for most Australians is that any development or use of this land will be "culturally insensitive" to Australian's.

But whilst it may be a site of significance and sacred to Australians it may not necessarily be the case for the French people?

How do the opponents to the closure of the Uluru climb counter an argument that those fields belong to the French people and they alone should decide its future use?

Or are they happy with this proposal in France to proceed on the basis that the cultural representations of Australian's don't count?

One of the premises of the original poster was that “it seems cultural acceptance goes only one way”…

Perhaps our own tolerance and cultural acceptance is now put to the test in France.

Is it hypocritical to reject the claim from the Anangau Elders on the basis that Uluru belongs to all Australians, but at the same time dictate (rightly so) to France that they respect a site of great significance to all Australian despite being located in their country?

The questions are rhetorical, I don’t necessarily expect an answer or a debate, but perhaps it might be something to reflect on…

Cheers, Baz – The Landy
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Nov 09, 2017 at 10:15

Thursday, Nov 09, 2017 at 10:15
It isn't France that's making that proposal Baz , its a French company that has already listened to others and has made such changes as ensuring the wind farm is not visible.

So why have not the custodians of Ayers rock not , and by your own logic, - failed to do the same and seek a compromise.

After all they can't even see this 1 little walking track !



" Maxime Louage, Engie Green project leader, told la Voix du Nord: "We had lots of feedback linked to the memorial. So we moved the project to the South by several hundred metres. When you enter the site, you won't see the wind farms contrary to what was initially planned."
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Follow Up By: Baz - The Landy - Thursday, Nov 09, 2017 at 10:31

Thursday, Nov 09, 2017 at 10:31
Hi Robin

I'll take that as a "yes" that you are happy to endorse development of the Bullecourt site in France.

I would suggest most Australian's wouldn't find a compromise of any kind acceptable, whether it is visible or not. But I'll leave it for others to agree or disagree with my assertion.

On Uluru, there has been compromise over a long period of time, 30-years in fact in which the climb has been allowed. In the meantime many other experiences at Uluru have been developed.

But how do you compromise on climbing the rock? It is a bit like being part pregnant, you either are or you aren't - you either allow the climb or you don't, hard to find any middle ground on that one...!

Cheers, Baz - The Landy

Ps: my opening line was a "French Company...!" But before we go congratulating Engie on listening, let's put this company in an Australian perspective...

News out this week..."Days before the carbon tax took effect on July 1, 2012, French energy giant Engie transferred $1 billion in dividends out of Australia and back to UK parent companies."

Robin and I and all other Australian's funded this dividend through lost taxation revenue...now isn't that an irony, we could be seen to be contributing to the funding of this proposal at Bullecourt.
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Reply By: Crackles - Thursday, Nov 09, 2017 at 21:36

Thursday, Nov 09, 2017 at 21:36
Talking with an old timer who lived with the local indigenous for 4 months back in the 70's, he recalled the elders having no objection at all to climbing the rock, in fact they could not understand why he would want to go up there as there was no food, no water & no shelter. At that time there was apparently little sacred about the top of the rock, just around the base, the overhangs & sites with water.
Fast forward to 2005 we were privileged to be shown around the Watarru area by an elder. They too have a sizeable mountain within their lands which we were camped beside & the question was asked could we climb it. The answer almost identical, climb anywhere you want except we must be escorted by him when visiting the caves & water pools around the base. (Their sacred sites)
So while I understand there are concerns of people being injured or defecating on the Rock, there does appear to have been a change of status in the past 40 years of how sacred the top is.
In any case it appears like so many other popular destinations, it too has succumbed to being loved to death & with a little political correctness thrown in the climb will unfortunately be closed for future generations.
AnswerID: 614871

Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Friday, Nov 10, 2017 at 07:37

Friday, Nov 10, 2017 at 07:37
Thanks Crackles , that lines up with my own experience from early 80's.

When on top of the rock we also had an F-111 do a single loop around it .
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Reply By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Friday, Nov 10, 2017 at 08:15

Friday, Nov 10, 2017 at 08:15
.
I don't remember where I got this from but it was a much earlier time. I understood that there was a sacred place at the lower part of Uluru through which the climbing path passed. It was to do with Song Lines or such.
On occasions, during ceremonial activity by Elders the climb was closed and in any case the Elders were not entirely comfortable about the tourist passage. I guessed that they were prevailed upon by white authorities to make the climb available but have now had enough.

Whatever attitude you have toward it, the fact is that we whites did descend upon this land and occupy it without invitation of the resident indigenous people. Even if this action has occurred many times before, and in many places, does not make it right.

Clearly, we are not going to pack-up and leave now, but we must accept significant compromise in our continued occupation. It is a great country and we are fortunate indeed to even be here. This surrender of a tourist activity is small concession in our reparation.
.
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Allan

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Reply By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Friday, Nov 10, 2017 at 14:58

Friday, Nov 10, 2017 at 14:58
Hi Robin

Seeing that you have had many varying replies, I would like to add some of my thoughts.

A few of your replies had hit the nail on the head and so much for a free country for all Australians.

We are fortunate enough to have made the climb 5 times in the past and it is a real shame that our grandchildren will not be able to experience those unreal views and the beauty of stand on top of Australia's most famous rock.

Most replies are only going on modern talk and do not know its full history as respected by true, Old timer Full Blood Elders from that area.

Today at work, I spoke to one of our valued customers. The customer's name is Keith and now into his 80's.

In his former life, he was a officer in the Army and more importantly, a Ranger for over 30 years with the Northern Territory National Parks. When Keith was based at Ayers Rock, when it was all dirt roads, and they often had contact with true, Full Blood Western Desert Aboriginals that came out of the desert in search for an easier life, rather than the nomadic hunters and gathers they were brought us as.

As a National Parks Ranger, they would ask the Full Blood Elders about the Rock and people climbing it, to which they had no problems at all. As Keith said to me, those old men have long since past away and the young ones today have lost a lot of their true heritage and to put it simply, banning the climb is utter B. S.



Cheers


Stephen
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Follow Up By: Dusty D - Sunday, Nov 12, 2017 at 09:02

Sunday, Nov 12, 2017 at 09:02
"..........our grandchildren will not be able to experience those unreal views and the beauty of stand on top of Australia's most famous rock."

Your grandchildren will miss out on lots of things that you and previous generations experienced, Stephen. That is just one of the facts associated with the passage of time. Things change and some things cease to exist - it is the way of the ever-changing world that we live in and your grandchildren will most likely experience things that you haven't and their grandkids never will.

Dusty
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Follow Up By: Michael H9 - Sunday, Nov 12, 2017 at 10:10

Sunday, Nov 12, 2017 at 10:10
Every "religion" mashes things up to suit its agenda. With a bit of luck, our great grand children will be experiencing moon rocks first hand as a tourist experience. I'm a bit sorry I won't get to see what religion claims ownership of that experience.
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Follow Up By: Member - John and Lynne - Sunday, Nov 12, 2017 at 12:29

Sunday, Nov 12, 2017 at 12:29
Unfortunately the fact that aboriginal elders did not speak against climbing the Rock 50 years ago is not really relevant to what the aboriginal owners say today! Rightly or wrongly the current rules can be made by today's owners. After all many things that were once accepted or at least overlooked in any society 50 years ago are now frowned upon or even illegal. Also 50 years ago the elders had not been recognised as legal owners and would probably not have spoken up to an authority figure but told him what he wanted to hear. Lynne
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Follow Up By: Member - Stephen L (Clare SA) - Sunday, Nov 12, 2017 at 18:06

Sunday, Nov 12, 2017 at 18:06
Hi Lynne

Can I please point out a few things, without this looking like an argument here on the forum.

Firstly, Aboriginals never own land, as in white mans terms, but are in fact custodians of the land, which is handed down from one family and tribe generation to the next and has been carried out for thousands of years. The only times this changes is when one tribe invades a neighbouring tribe to gain access to better land for hunting and to increase the power of the invading tribe.

How do I know this, well because I have many Aboriginal friends and one such friend was born to both Yankuntjatyara and Antakarinja parents that lived in the far north of South Australia. One story that Bobby personally told me was "one day we will get our land back"

I asked what did he mean by this statement, as his tribal land is now in the very large northern part of the state in the APY Lands (which I would presume you know where they are ) and in all run by the Traditional Owners of that area.

No he said, way back in time ( this in our white mans times was in the very early 1900's ) that Pitjantjatjara mob raided our lands and stole my country. According to Bobby, the Pitjantjatjara were only a small clan, but a very fierce mob, while Bobby's mob where far bigger in size, but not strength. Yes Aboriginals are all Black, but there was still a great hatred between rival clans and not living in harmony as many would want to believe.

Traditional Aboriginal Law is never changed to suit modern day times, and is past from one lot of initiated men to the next lot of young initiated men to kept the Law alive and active. Those that have never gone through Aboriginal Business, regardless of age and only know as boys and are never told of the Family Dreaming Stories and the special Law. If that Law was past down from their ancestors, the so called modern day Elders would still be all reading from the very same page, and not one made up by none initiated Elders, or so called white do gooders that think they are doing the right thing.

Ayers Rock was never a traditional home for Aboriginals from that area, but a place of significance for Traditional " Mens and Womens " Business. That is why the true Elders that Keith had contact with, had no concern about climbing the Rock. They were never pressured to say what they said, as the National Parks Rangers wanted to learn as much about their history as they could, so that they could preserve that important thoughts of the Elders. Are you also aware that Ayers Rock first became a National Park back in 1950, when there were still many family groups living out in the Western Deserts in a true Aboriginal Hunter & Gatherer lifestyle, something that they and their ancestors had done so for countless thousands of years. Over the generations, a lot of Law has been lost and even the Elders do not have the respect from the younger people in their groups. If the so called young people had the respect for their Land and Elders, they would not carry on like they do, and in fact if they carried on like they do 100 years ago, many of them would have been speared by the Elders for showing no respect.

I could keep going, but you can see that I have personal contacts, both Black and White that tell their story and not relying on so called modern day talk.



Stephen
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Nov 13, 2017 at 16:49

Monday, Nov 13, 2017 at 16:49
Hi Stephen - we are just back from another very successful Bonz lead Pyrennies camp and I note your reply.

I have always felt this was a thin edge of the wedge setup which is already having negative consequences. So Sad !

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Reply By: The Explorer - Sunday, Nov 12, 2017 at 13:43

Sunday, Nov 12, 2017 at 13:43
Look on the bright side Robin - you haven’t been personally singled out regarding access to certain areas- spare a thought for Alan....



Found this sign yesterday. There were also no dog/dogs on leads signs (no evidence of any dingos though). What's the world coming to.

Cheers
Greg
I sent one final shout after him to stick to the track, to which he replied “All right,” That was the last ever seen of Gibson - E Giles 23 April 1874

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Follow Up By: equinox - Sunday, Nov 12, 2017 at 14:26

Sunday, Nov 12, 2017 at 14:26
ahh, the Powers that Be - always one step ahead of me :-)


Looking for adventure.
In whatever comes our way.
"Outback Yonder"


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Reply By: Member Boroma 604 - Sunday, Nov 12, 2017 at 18:46

Sunday, Nov 12, 2017 at 18:46
Gooday,
Well it was AyersRock the first time I went there in 1964 and climbed it then, no objections from anybody, the first 10-15 yards of chain had just been put up about 2 weeks before we got there, Bill Harney was The Ranger then if I remember correctly.
Went back in 2000 and had worn out hips so could not climb it that trip. Went back in 2004, by then had 2 replacement hips and climbed it again, was a blast to be able to relive the experience of '64, especially to see the changes around the area from up there.
Have been there at least 2 more times since, when going through to Laverton via The Great Central Road.

It was Ayers Rock & will always be Ayers Rock to me, saddened that is just another wedge in the Them & Us saga.
Cheers,
Boroma604.
AnswerID: 614931

Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Sunday, Nov 12, 2017 at 20:12

Sunday, Nov 12, 2017 at 20:12
Boroma 604.For some reason your van appears to be bigger on the outside than the inside. How is this possible.
Dave.
As per the Doctor. :)
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FollowupID: 885646

Follow Up By: Member Boroma 604 - Sunday, Nov 12, 2017 at 20:30

Sunday, Nov 12, 2017 at 20:30
Gooday David M,
As you will see where it says Roadstar Vacationer on the bottom of my reply, Preceding Word is Classifieds, yes that one is 17ft 6 inches and is for sale in the Classifieds. Great condition, fully equipped with Solar and ready for some lucky person to hit the road straight away.

The one in the Photo is our current caravan which we are Keeping is 20Ft or 6.4 metres. Hope that clears that up.
Cheers,
Boroma604.
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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Monday, Nov 13, 2017 at 16:43

Monday, Nov 13, 2017 at 16:43
Hi Boroma

I think you have got it in 1 line , by forcing views on someone else ->



"its just another wedge in the Them & Us saga."
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Reply By: tim_c - Friday, Nov 17, 2017 at 09:35

Friday, Nov 17, 2017 at 09:35
Some people get a great kick out of being able to prevent others from doing something.

I've seen it working with National Parks staff around ACT/Southern NSW where there was a real "them" and "us" mentality and they seemed to just feel good about being able to exclude the public from particular areas. I wonder if there's a bit of the same immaturity here?
AnswerID: 615033

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