Channel Nine - Ray Martin 1830 hrs Tuesday 28 September

Submitted: Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 13:15
ThreadID: 16617 Views:5428 Replies:14 FollowUps:25
This Thread has been Archived
We received this information today from the WA4WD Association.

The Pedestrian Council's Harold Scruby will be featured in what the pre announcement tonght described as the Great 4WD Debate. Jon Jenkins MLC sent around a rebuttal of what HS has been using a week ago and is again in contact with Channel Nine right now. We believe the ALP has done a deal with the Greens, to use whatever means to get 4WDs out of the cities as usual, in exchange for preferences. The segment may have already been recorded, Channel Nine has not interviewed Jon, so we may once more end up being ignored on this one.

I have attached Jon's notes for your information if you haven't already seen them.

Jon is our ORP member in the NSW Upper House.

------------- Attachment -------------------------
Dr Jon Jenkins MLC www.trac.org.au Preserving the Environment
Protecting Your Right to Enjoy It

The Use of US Statistics!
The US statistics may support the anti 4WD case in some cases. However there are
four serious flaws with the US statistics:
1: Only 11 of the US states have seat belt laws which can be enforced by financial or points penalty. This completely skews any comparison of crash statistics but is
especially relevant to rollovers for obvious reasons.
2: The types of vehicles in the US are completely different from those found in
Australia. Some of the US’s most popular vehicles (Chevy and Fords) are simply not found in Australia. Conversely some of the most popular vehicles in Australia (eg Nissan Patrol and Toyota Land Cruiser 75/78) are not available in the US. To
compare vehicle characteristics in these very different environments is simply wrong!
3: The US crash statistics are completely skewed due to the Ford Explorer and
Firestone tyre fiasco. This is where Firestone tyres fitted to Ford Explorers exploded without warning causing many hundreds of deaths and thousands of crashes. It resulted in the largest automotive recall in history.
4: The ATSB statistics tell us that unlike the US the accident rate for 4WDs and
sedans is almost identical in Australia.

Light Vs Heavy 4WDs
To lump all 4WDs together is ludicrous! It is no different than combining 4WDs with
heavy vehicles such as trucks. Further even within the Heavy 4WDs to compare the
handling characteristics of a Toyota Troop Carrier with a BMW X5 is ludicrous in the extreme.
Similarly it is equally ridiculous to compare a Honda CRV with a Nissan patrol.
Heavy 4WDs (those with a chassis and live axels) handle differently from a normal
sedans and other 4WDs. But so does any vehicle of the same weight and design,
whether it is a people mover full of people or a delivery van.
There may be some justification for special licenses as recommended by the Federal Road Safety Committee. The case for high powered motorcycles was a convincing one and has been reflected in the statistics for young riders.
However the justification for 4WDs would also apply to any vehicle outside of the
“normal” sedan variety: small delivery vans can also exceed 2.5 tonnes when loaded as can people movers.

Centre of Gravity and Rollovers
There seems to be this perception that 4WDs have some inherent centre of gravity
problem. It goes without saying that any larger vehicle has a higher centre of
gravity. But it should be noted that the height of the BODY of a vehicle is almost
irrelevant to its centre of gravity: the majority of the mass of a heavy 4WD vehicle is in the engine, gearbox, chassis, fuel tanks and drive train.
The centre of mass of these components is actually only a little higher than a sedan
vehicle: it is only that height which is the difference of the larger tyres and rims that are fitted plus a little. Any engineer will tell you why: it’s to do with how drive trains and how universal joints have to work (this does not take into account highly “lifted” competition vehicles).
In order of rollover ease (highest to lowest) you could classify vehicles: B-Double,
Semi Trailer, Heavy Truck, Bus, Light Truck/Delivery Van, Heavy 4WD, People
Mover, Light 4WD, Sedan, Sports Car, Go Kart.
As to dynamic handling there are many vehicles which have scored less than a
sports car in the moose/swerve/hook/slalom test. The classic was the Mercedes
A160 which rolled when a journalist tested the vehicle! Further a fully loaded vehicle will have very different characteristics than an unloaded one: a delivery van for example.
Why is the 4WD is singled out for special mention as to its handling?
It is an obvious result of physics that the heavier the vehicle the more damage it will do when it collides with another vehicle. A heavy 4WD will do exactly the same
amount of damage as a large sedan, van, mini bus or people mover of the same
weight. Its just simple physics about how much energy has to be dissipated in the
crash.

Overall Size and Blocking of Vision
Length Width Overall Height
Chrysler Voyager 5094 1997 + mirrors 1749
Falcon Wagon 5053 1863 + mirrors 1483
Commodore Wagon 5046 1850 + mirrors 1527
Toyota Hi Ace 4900 1609 + mirrors 1930
Ford Transit 4900 1760 + mirrors 2363
Patrol 4930 1930 inc mirrors! 1875
The very vehicle often suggested to replace 4WDs is longer, wider and higher than most 4WDs? Even a seven seat Commodore is longer and wider than a Nissan Patrol. Put on a loaded roof rack and voila: you have a longer, wider and higher vehicle (which is also probably dangerously overloaded!).

Pedestrian Safety
Percent of Child Fatalities Type of Vehicle
22% Heavy Trucks
22% Large Utilities
22% 4WD wagons
14% Sedans
11% Delivery Vans
6% Station Wagons
3% Ambulances
(Source ATSB)
4WDs are under-represented in child deaths in terms of numbers of vehicles on the
road (as are sedans!) whereas heavy vehicles and large utilities are over
represented.

Vehicle Type Percent of Pedestrian Deaths
Cars 64
Van/Utility/4WD 15*
Rigid Truck 12
Semitrailer 5
Bus 2
Others 3
(*Source ATSB, note that this is a combined figure for ALL Vans/Utilities and 4WDs)
4WDs seem to be almost exclusively blamed for pedestrian injuries and fatalities.
Despite the much-hyped belief that 4WDs contribute significantly to pedestrian
fatalities, available statistics indicate that this is not the case and that sedans are the major contributors, followed by heavy vehicles.
The conclusion is that even when lumped with other “utility” vehicles 4WDs are still
underrepresented! Is this because 4WDs are slower?

Load Carrying
Consider for the moment which is safer for the trip north:
A) A sedan loaded with two adults, two children, bikes, gear, luggage, camping
supplies, water, food, surfboards and other associated holiday requirements
and a boat attached to the rear.
B) A Toyota Landcruiser similarly outfitted
It’s a no contest to which is the safer and more comfortable option!
The “only 10% go off road” or “Toorak Tractor” Myth!
32% of 4WDs are registered (via postcodes) in designated non-urban areas? (note:
we have been unable to obtain the figures for NSW but we suspect it is the same as Victoria!)

The Fuel/Greenhouse Argument Furphy
4WDs are often accused of excessive fuel consumption and therefore being wasteful of natural resources. It is true that some heavy petrol 4WDs do consume more fuel on average than petrol sedans, because of the weight factor in the main. However a 2 tonne 4WD uses no more fuel than a 2 tonne Statesman or People Mover!
The diesel Nissan Patrol or Toyota Landcruiser, for example, can easily achieve 10.5 lt/100 km in highway driving conditions and not greatly less in urban driving. This is almost identical if not less than the average large station wagon.
With regard to pollution older and/or poorly maintained cars and erratically driven
vehicles are by far the biggest contributors towards airborne pollution (Source -
EPA). The mere fact that a vehicle is a 4WD does not mean that the contribution to
pollution is any greater than that of a conventional family sedan.
Diesels come in for special mention in some articles. However as engineers are well aware the modern common rail diesels with low sulphur fuels are actually less
polluting than either petrol or LPG engines. Further, modern small diesel emissions
are already clean and do not require catalytic converters (many of which can
become infective shortly after new anyway!) that petrol vehicles do.
The latest small diesels pass the stringent European Euro 4 (2005) requirements
WITHOUT a catalytic cracker! Some of them also have PARTICULATE filters (Citroen and Peugeot since 2000 for example). These can be easily retro-fitted to make all modern diesels meet the Euro 4 (2005) standards (Mercedes and Peugeot are already offering these as a retro-fit to existing models).
When you add to this the extraordinary fuel economy of modern diesels it is overtly
apparent they are not the “polluting” “fuel guzzlers” implied!

Economics of a 4WD for the Yearly Trip
Many people who own a 4WD get themselves out of bed every morning, go off to a
job they probably don’t like just so they can go on that yearly holiday to Yamba or
fishing trip to the Gulf! It’s their raison detre. They understand every time they go
for a service or to buy a tyre how much a 4WD costs to maintain and they still do it!

For more information please do not hesitate to contact the Toyota Land Cruiser Club or the NSW 4WD & ACT Association or Dr Jon Jenkins at the respective websites:
Toyta Landcruiser Club: www.tlcc.com.au
4WD NSW & ACT: www.4wdnsw.org
Dr Jon Jenkins: www.trac.org.au

Summary of the Anti 4WD Falsehoods
US Crash Statistics!
• The US statistics are skewed by the different types of vehicles and
the Firestone tyre fiasco.
• Only 11 of the 50 US states use seatbelt enforcement. This is
particularly relevant to rollover deaths.
• Accident rates for sedans are almost the same as 4WDs in Australia.
Many 4WDs are used in country areas on the worst roads at high
speeds: this is a very positive statistic.

Stability and Light Vs Heavy 4WDs
• There are different types of 4WDs. The “light” 4WDs such as the Subaru Forrester are no different from sedans.
• Heavy 4WDs will rollover more easily than a sedan but sedans will rollover more easily than a sports car: where do we draw this imaginary line?
• Many vehicles do not do well on the “swerve” test (including the infamous Mercedes A160 which actually rolled when tested in Germany) and yet there are no anti-vehicle name campaigns.

Size and Blocking of Vision
• Even the largest 4WDs are smaller than the replacement people movers.
• Even the largest 4WD is smaller than the average family sedan such as a Commodore or Falcon station wagon.

Crash Statistics
Monash University research has shown that the heavier the vehicle the more damage it inflicts to smaller vehicles. A 2 tonne 4WD will inflict the same damage as a 2 tonne sedan or a 2 tonne delivery van or minibus or a 2 tonne people mover. 4WDs should not be singled out for attention.

Pedestrian Safety
• ATSB statistics indicate that 4WDs contribute less to pedestrian fatalities than either sedan cars or heavy vehicles.
• Child deaths are also under represented in 4WDs.

Load Carrying
• Heavy 4WDs are designed to carry and tow heavy loads. In this respect they are safer than lighter vehicles even lighter 4WDs!
• They are required by caravans, horse floats, boats and tradespeople.

Fuel Economy and Pollution
• Light petrol 4WDs use the same amount of fuel as light petrol sedans.
• Heavy petrol 4WDs use the same amount of fuel as heavy petrol sedans (e.g. Statesman, Fairlane etc and People Movers).
• Modern Euro 4 and Euro 5 diesels are more efficient and less polluting than either petroleum or LPG vehicles.

Bull Bars
• Don’t call these bull bars anymore, call them roo bars
• Don’t need a roo bar in city BUT do need a roo bar in the country.
• City people drive in the country and country people drive in the city!

Dr Jon Jenkins MLC www.trac.org.au Preserving the Environment
Protecting Your Right to Enjoy It
-------- End of Attachment --------------------
David (DM) & Michelle (MM)
---------------------------------
Currently Mapping in the Field Across Australia Fulltime in 2023 - 2025

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message
Moderator

Back Expand Un-Read 0 Moderator

Reply By: ExplorOz Team - David - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 13:25

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 13:25
Just to clarify - the only sentance I put in the above copy and paste is the first one being: We received this information today from the WA4WD Association.

The remainder is as it came from the WA4WDA. Interesting stats and information regardless of the reason for it. Think we might have to stop work for 30mins to watch this one.
David (DM) & Michelle (MM)
---------------------------------
Currently Mapping in the Field Across Australia Fulltime in 2023 - 2025

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message
Moderator

AnswerID: 78069

Follow Up By: GeoffSA - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 13:46

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 13:46
David,

Would I be able to use this info with my 4WD Club?

I would like to present it as a hard copy if able.

Geoff.
0
FollowupID: 337652

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 14:03

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 14:03
Yea same for our club.
0
FollowupID: 337654

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 14:13

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 14:13
and we have a report in the advertiser today saying that AAMI have done a survey and found that 70% of the population think 4wd drivers are arogant and aggressive.
We are also:
more dangerous to other road users
50% believe that 4wd should not be in the cities

If i wanted to die young then i'd go and buy a little zeta or gogomobile and play roulette out there on the roads.... just like those who most likely are our bigger critics.

Are 4wd more dangerous than a tradesmans Van?
They... Tradesmans Vans are big and bulky and wont let the drivers of little buzz boxes see.
Ditto for poeple movers
What consitutes a 4wd....a subaru, a mitsubishi AWD or the ford etc etc
All these things are going to hurt if it hits!!!

Geeez when will this crap about 4wd being more dangerous to others stop!

0
FollowupID: 337655

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 14:22

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 14:22
ooops Geoff n Karen already posted about this subject earlier....
0
FollowupID: 337657

Follow Up By: ExplorOz Team - David - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 14:28

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 14:28
Geoff & Truckster,

Yes please feel free to use this as you wish.
David (DM) & Michelle (MM)
---------------------------------
Currently Mapping in the Field Across Australia Fulltime in 2023 - 2025

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message
Moderator

0
FollowupID: 337658

Follow Up By: GeoffSA - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 14:47

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 14:47
Thanks.
0
FollowupID: 337661

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 22:27

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 22:27
Thanks Dave..
already sent to editor :D
0
FollowupID: 337726

Reply By: Truckster (Vic) - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 13:26

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 13:26
>>> We believe the ALP has done a deal with the Greens, to use whatever means to get 4WDs out of the cities as usual, in exchange for preferences.
As I said throw enoughbleepeventually it will stick.

>>> The segment may have already been recorded, Channel Nine has not interviewed Jon, so we may once more end up being ignored on this one.
Gee dave.. your suggesting the media are biased?? never.

AnswerID: 78070

Reply By: Member - John (Vic) - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 14:08

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 14:08
Finally the voice of reason and common sense.
VKS737 - Mobile 6352 (Selcall 6352)

Lifetime Member
My Profile  Send Message

AnswerID: 78073

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 14:20

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 14:20
Where?
0
FollowupID: 337656

Reply By: Member - Crazie (VIC) - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 14:26

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 14:26
smells like an election looming......
AnswerID: 78076

Reply By: Truckster (Vic) - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 15:03

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 15:03
From the toothless tiger.

Following publication of a survey by AAMI, A Current Affair on Channel 9 is running a story tonight about four wheel drives in the city.

Stories appeared in the Age and Herald Sun this morning.

The Herald Sun is conducting a phone poll with the question:

'Are 4WD vehicles more dangerous to other cars on the road?'

To vote NO call 1900 956 435
To vote YES call 1900 956 434

Barry Chare
Secretary
Four Wheel Drive Victoria
AnswerID: 78079

Reply By: Member - Bradley- Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 15:33

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 15:33
Yep you wouldn't know there was an election looming at all would you !!

ACA - a current affair, or
ACA - another crappy ad

you decide...

interesting that 9 are covering this with the alp/greens tie in , seeing as they have their liberal stooges firmly in place within the organisation. As for that Scruby halfwit, it steams me up that our tax dollars pay for this moron to sit on every halfbaked panel there is. He might be usefull as a wheel chock though.....

But i'm really buggered now, my Jackaroo is registered as a 'holden station wagon' so i'm stuffed either way !!!

I wouldn't waste a cent ringing money maker 'poll' numbers or waste my time giving them ratings points watching this nonsense.. BTW did anyone else see media watch last night , what a ripper, showing all the media stooges for what they are..
AnswerID: 78083

Follow Up By: Member - Bradley- Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 15:36

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 15:36
oops forgot to say - 2 thumbs up Jon, good work.
0
FollowupID: 337670

Reply By: Member - Roger L (NSW) - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 17:48

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 17:48
Hmmmm,
It looks like a com on to me, a polies idea of gaining more tax money,
like smokes just add lots of tax to a 4b and see them reduced.
Cynical I know.
& I'm not a smoker
I used to have a handle on life, but it broke.

Cheers Dodg.

Lifetime Member
My Profile  Send Message

AnswerID: 78108

Reply By: Coops (Pilbara) - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 17:56

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 17:56
excellent post David and thanks to Jon.
I won't be giving ACA the publicity or exposure it is chasing by watching their garbage show though.

Question: I live in the Pilbara where a 4WD is not only nice to have but a necessity for a plethora of reasons (flash floods, desert, mudflats.........) yet I must travel to the city on the odd occasion - must I park my Landcruiser on the outskirts of Perth and walk in?
AnswerID: 78110

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 22:36

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 22:36
I've thought this as well with the BAN BARS IN THE CITY, so do you take tools with you and remove the bar as you hit the 400klm limit?

Na, it will just be a scam, its not a levy, and its not a tax, its a scam..

IAFSOT..
0
FollowupID: 337732

Reply By: Wombat - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 18:03

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 18:03
I won't be watching the sensationalistic hyperbole but I do have a question. What is it that we are in fear of here - that our elected government is about to make 25% of our personal transport illegal, unroadworthy and valueless with the framing of a new anti-4WD law? Surely not?
AnswerID: 78111

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 22:32

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 22:32
Dont be suprised.. when was the last time you heard of a polly making a logical decision?

They will make laws, rules, licenses, taxs, levys, charges, up the cost of diesel more, and people honestly think nothing will happen...

... amazing. I really hate to use this group as an example, but ask Gun Owners.
0
FollowupID: 337730

Reply By: ian - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 18:49

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 18:49
G'day All

Wombat is are right. Too much worrying about things that will never happen.

Do you think Ford will ALLOW such laws when the Territory is such a winner for them. What about Toyota, etc, etc. These guys have real clout, and running around in circles screaming that the sky is falling in is a waste of time.

How are our rich politicians going to tow their horsefloats and yachts?

Anti Labour rantings are just that.....rantings. There may be some changes in the future years, but we will be able to live with them. There are too many voters with 4x4. Changes to design of bullbars may be an issue for new registrations in a few years, I don't know.

Don't get sucked in by the hairy armpit brigade, who no doubt monitor this site.

P.S re the report on Fuel: Landcruiser fuel vs Statesman! I have both, and the Statesman does not use as much fuel as the Cruiser. Get a grip! Such nonsense only harms our sensible arguements and call for sanity.

Just have fun
Ian
AnswerID: 78117

Follow Up By: Member - Lindsay S (Int) - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 19:48

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 19:48
I did not see the show as I do not live in Australia. I live in Brasil where there are real issues to contend with and this sort of fungus does not rate. Think of the upside, if this is all Australians have to get worked up about in todays world it is a great place to live. The US stastistics are meaningless in reference to the 4wd SUV debate as the majority of SUV,s over there that I saw were 2wd vehicles including the two Explorers I owned while living there. They were not bought to go off road, they were bought because they are practical strong vehicles with a good seating position and usable loadspace. They also coped with Houstons suburban back roads, there is no better tyre and suspension buster than concrete if it is not maintaned, at least our potholes have soft edges and no steel in them.
0
FollowupID: 337705

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 22:03

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 22:03
Thanks for that Ian. So your suggestion is: keep a low profile,
do nothing and hope everything will be OK. Let's hope you're
right because if you're wrong it'll all be too late, won't it?

Mike Harding
0
FollowupID: 337719

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 22:30

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 22:30
How many Territories do you see with bullbars?

The smallerbleepboxes will be exempt.

And dont think it will "NEVER HAPPEN".. you are in for a rude shock I think
0
FollowupID: 337729

Reply By: Mike Harding - Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 21:56

Tuesday, Sep 28, 2004 at 21:56
>Dr Jon Jenkins MLC www.trac.org.au Preserving the Environment

Jon: I suggest you employ a good public relations consultant ASAP,
God help us if this is our response.

There is no point in preaching technical stuff to the converted - you
have to make it simple for the "great unwashed". Gordon Bennett...!

Mike Harding
AnswerID: 78150

Follow Up By: jon jenkins - Saturday, Oct 02, 2004 at 14:24

Saturday, Oct 02, 2004 at 14:24
Hi People,

Some quick notes on this issue:

1: The version posted here is a little hard to read. If you want the orginal PDF you can go to here and download it. This version will be updated regularly; for instance we have just found out that the rollover stats for 100 Cruisers and Patrols are better than utes, panel vans or delivery vans!!

2: This document was not sent to the general public. It was distributed to all NSW clubs so we have a logical and factual story for the media. In fact it was dstributed as a "Media Kit" to all club executives. The only releavent bits for the general public is the summary at the end. I agree this whole doc is too weighty for general consumption.

3: The AAMI survey is a crock! Imagine if you asked the public if they thought Mercedes drivers were arrogant or if Holden drivers thought Ford drivers arrogant? UhhhDooohh we don't need a survey to tell us the answers.

Anyway people please keep in contact if you have any ideas or suggestions.

Jon Jenkins jon@trac.org.au
0
FollowupID: 338094

Reply By: Member - Mungo Explorer (NSW) - Wednesday, Sep 29, 2004 at 01:17

Wednesday, Sep 29, 2004 at 01:17
Some good points in there (some, not all) but why this:
"We believe the ALP has done a deal with the Greens, to use whatever means to get 4WDs out of the cities as usual, in exchange for preferences."
There's no evidence for that at all, and that statement alone reduces the rest of it to the status of an election campaign trolling exercise...
AnswerID: 78171

Follow Up By: jon jenkins - Saturday, Oct 02, 2004 at 15:02

Saturday, Oct 02, 2004 at 15:02
Hi,

There are several reasons why this was included:

1: Because Mr Carr has made his promise well known and it is part of the ALP policy (Keating on ACA: "4WDs taxed out of existance"). As it is for the Greens and you don't need me to tell you what they will do with their balance of power in NSW and Federal Parliaments after this election. The only people who may oppose this are the Nats!

2: I am not running in any election, it is a federal election and I am a state member.

3: I have not asked for your vote and will not until the next state election in 2007. You and others need to decide how important your 4WDing, park access, horse riding, fishing or other rec activity is to you. For me and my family it was everything we enjoyed doing and over the last 10 years it has all been taken away for no other reason then to get lunatic green preferences to one or other of the major parties!

I see this every day I sit in parlament where the Greens hold the balance of power and use it to bring their policies into force! This is not scare tactics it is very real!

4: The agenda is set and this will become an election issue for the NSW election in 2007. If we do as we did for access to National Parks (not a lot) we will end up in ther same situation: nothing.

This is what **IS** on the agenda for 2007:

1: bull bars banned for non country registered vehicles
2: rises in registration for non country 4WDs
3: special (and probably expensive) licenses for 4WDs
4: rises in "weight tax" component

Remember 10 years ago everyone said: "they will never lock up the National Parks" well they did. I have heard the same from fisermen up and down the coast and yet it's happening with massive bans on fishing in QLD and NSW right now. Note that there are 10 times as many fishermen as 4WDers and yet the gov still does pref deals with the Greens! The threat to 4WDs is very very real!

Jon Jenkins web site
jon@trac.org.au
0
FollowupID: 338095

Follow Up By: Member - Mungo Explorer (NSW) - Tuesday, Oct 05, 2004 at 01:57

Tuesday, Oct 05, 2004 at 01:57
"Because Mr Carr has made his promise well known and it is part of the ALP policy (Keating on ACA: "4WDs taxed out of existance")"

Keating saying it does not make it ALP policy. And Keating can probably spell "existence" properly.

"The only people who may oppose this are the Nats!"

Trolling then. QED.
0
FollowupID: 338265

Follow Up By: jon jenkins - Tuesday, Oct 05, 2004 at 18:50

Tuesday, Oct 05, 2004 at 18:50
Ahh you missed something: Carr **AND** Keating said this and I can tell you that if these guys say it publicly it IS ALP policy: they never say anyhting in public without a specific purpose in mind: they are way too experienced as polticians.

And as you would expect that Nats, who represnt farmers who use 4WDs as a way of life, would oppose this.

And how do I know this: because I spend a large part of my time in parliament with these people!

As to spelling you are correct, I generally use Dragon Dictate which auto corrects for me and I have become very lazy when I have to type with my fingers and produce lots of spelling mistakes :-(

Dr Jon Jenkins MLC www
Parliament House
Sydney NSW
0
FollowupID: 338394

Follow Up By: Member - Mungo Explorer (NSW) - Tuesday, Oct 05, 2004 at 20:15

Tuesday, Oct 05, 2004 at 20:15
Don't want to unnecessarily prolong this thread but this is silly: Keating has retired from politics and his views are those of a private individual. Carr's views - and you have failed to quote him - do not constitute ALP policy either. In fact, the ALP has NO policy on 4wd that I have ever heard of. Good try at some election scaremongering but you're making it up.
As to your own party, it has a largely rural electorate and will, as you suggest, therefore defend farmers and their vehicles. Quite rightly. But insofar as there is a real debate about 4wds it concerns urban ones: even Keating doesn't want to take the fourbies away from the farmers. You and Keating are simply mirror images of each other on this, each engaging in a bit of windbag rhetoric to suit their different audiences.
0
FollowupID: 338406

Follow Up By: jon jenkins - Tuesday, Oct 05, 2004 at 21:08

Tuesday, Oct 05, 2004 at 21:08
Hi

OK as you say this is silly. You simply do not understand politics and the ALP: you never retire from the ALP and his views are never private. He along with Neville and Barry are some of the most influential people in the NSW ALP today. Carr is the Master and generally what he says goes without question! In addition the simple truth is that the Greens have the balance of power in the NSW Upper House and basically get whatever they want: They want 4WDs banned! This is the reality!

As I said above I am not standing for election and this is not scaremongering. Further you seem to believe I am a member of the Nats, I AM NOT: I AM AN INDEPENDENT. As a member of the Legislative Council I have three basic "electorates": 4WDs, fishermen and horseriders.

I sincerely hope that most 4WD owners do not take this so lightly otherwise they will go the way access to National Parks went and they way fishing is going now: banned!

Dr Jon Jenkins MLC
0
FollowupID: 338414

Follow Up By: Member - Mungo Explorer (NSW) - Tuesday, Oct 05, 2004 at 21:38

Tuesday, Oct 05, 2004 at 21:38
OK, I may not understand politics and the ALP but I understand the difference between hysterical scaremongering and the truth. So tell me:

1. When did Carr say he wanted 4wds "banned"?
2. When, for that matter, did the Greens actually say that was their policy to "ban 4wds"?
3. Since when has fishing been "banned"?

Of course you're free to disagree with the ALP or Greens, I do myself on many issues, but don't make up things as you go along.
0
FollowupID: 338419

Follow Up By: jon jenkins - Wednesday, Oct 06, 2004 at 08:27

Wednesday, Oct 06, 2004 at 08:27
Where do you live, in a cocoon totally removed from reality?

>1. When did Carr say he wanted 4wds "banned"?

The preference deal that was done between the Greens and Carr is a matter of public record. One of the parts of that deal was the removal of 4WDs from city streets . In fact the Greens have publicly castigated him on numerous occasions for not complying with this part of the agreement.

>2. When, for that matter, did the Greens actually say that was their policy to "ban 4wds"?

The official policy is to tax them to the point where it is too expensive to own them by import tariffs and registration duties: thats the same as a ban! BB has stated as his official policy to put an import tariff of 15% on all 4WDs. Apart from that I have heard first hand the diatribe from our current sitting Greens and everything they publish is anti 4WD from removal from National Parks and beaches to their outright support for the NPA and NCC whose official policy is to ban them totally to their twisting of the crash and pedestrian statistics .

If you can't use them its as good as a ban. This is all part of the same agenda: tax them and ban them from everywhere. This is not a local phenomena either, it was the Euro Greens who pushed for the ban on 4WDs in Paris.

>3. Since when has fishing been "banned"?

Jeez where do you live?

As of now in QLD fishing is banned along 30% of the GBR with more coming. Fishing will be banned from Cairns north completely. This is just the start!

In NSW currently there are massive bans along the NSW coast (Eden, Narooma, Jervis Coffs, etc etc). In the most recent Marine Park you are basically banned from fishing from Ballina to Brunswick Heads except for Lennox Beach. The Greens are supporting the NCC and NPA to establish a fishing ban of 50% of the coast of NSW.

I don't know where you live but you need to get out more :-)

jon
0
FollowupID: 338453

Follow Up By: Member - Mungo Explorer (NSW) - Wednesday, Oct 06, 2004 at 15:54

Wednesday, Oct 06, 2004 at 15:54
Nimble footwork but you're still firing blanks mate.
No more mention of "banning 4WDs" I note. The anti-4WD pact between the Greens and Carr is now a preferences deal, the bread and butter of politics. Carr, far from wanting to "ban" 4WDs, is now castigated by the Greens for doing nothing. Turns out the Greens don't want to ban them either but discourage their urban use through taxation. That's NOT the same as a ban: all kinds of things (cigarettes, alcohol etc) are taxed to discourage their use but perfectly legal.
Same with fishing: no bans, noone even talking about it, but various restrictions. Now we may disagree about the wisdoms of these restrictions but nobody is banning, or threatening to ban, fishing. Agreed that some Greens sometimes get a bit hysterical but then hysteria, as you amply demonstrate, is to be found on both sides.
There's certainly room for discussion in a democracy about where to draw the line between absolute freedom and sensible restrictions for the greater good, and there are good arguments on both sides, but your scaremongering, which on your own admission is without any foundation in fact, doesn't help such rational debate. As you might have guessed, my own sympathies are somewhere between Labor and the Greens, but I also own a 4WD and enjoy fishing. I do get out a lot and where I live neither are seriously threatened.
0
FollowupID: 338526

Follow Up By: jon jenkins - Wednesday, Oct 06, 2004 at 20:22

Wednesday, Oct 06, 2004 at 20:22
OK this is the last thing I will say on this:

1: So we can increase the tax on them by registration and duties to the point where they are unaffordable, we can run campaigns thru our "front" organisations like the NRMA to discredit and demonise their owners, we can twist and lie about the ststistics and we can prohibit them from National Parks, beaches and any other place where they can actually be used.

But that’s not a BAN that' "discouraging their use"!

2: Fishing is already prohibited along large parts of the NSW coast and many more Marine Parks are planned. No ones talking about it, well you had better tell that to the thousand or so people at the Brunswick protest the other day!

But hang on these are not BANs they are "restrictions".

I hope anybody who reads this and has any sense can see through your crap, you are, to use the great Australian vernacular, "full of it"!

To anyone who reads this remember the story with National Parks and Wilderness 10 years ago. No one thought they would ban 4WD access to most of the National Parks and yet look at what’s happened. I bet Mungo was saying the same thing then: "its just scaremongering".

It may take another 10 years but unless people stand up and say enough they will win! I overheard a conversation between a senior advocate and a member of the National Parks Advisory Committee: "you are all f*cking dinosaurs and in 50 years you will be dead and your kids will not know what a 4WD was". That’s how these people think of us and that’s the timescale they are working on.

The Greens are a bunch of far left extremist ideologues who have taken over the environmental movement to further their political aims. They even tried (and almost succeeded) to remove the only remaining real environmentalist in NSW from the their party! If you want to see the results of real extremism have a look at Kosciuszko NP these days; that’s what ideological management does. Anyone who votes for them or any party that does deals with them without understanding that deserves everything they get!

Jon

Dr Jon Jenkins MLC www
Parliament House Sydney
02-9230-2751
0
FollowupID: 338563

Follow Up By: Member - Mungo Explorer (NSW) - Wednesday, Oct 06, 2004 at 20:43

Wednesday, Oct 06, 2004 at 20:43
The NRMA as a "front organisation" for the Greens and left-wing extremists - whatever next? Al Quaida behind the RSPCA? The Red Cross a Jewish plot?
Excuse me, I'm going fishing before the KGB confiscates my rods...
0
FollowupID: 338569

Reply By: Big Trev - Wednesday, Sep 29, 2004 at 08:09

Wednesday, Sep 29, 2004 at 08:09
All I am going to say on this matter is that I refuse to watch ACA, it used to do a regular hatchet job on Truck Drivers under the leadership of Mike Munro, now it looks like Ray Martin has taken over the mantel, but this time targeting 4x4's.

Do what I do - boycott the goddam program - it is sensantionalism at its best - they hunt down the most vocal people to give the "anti" opinion. Today Tonight and 60 minutes are no better. I don't watch any of them.

If you want real current affairs reporting go to the ABC for the 7.30 report, and believe me you never see them bagging 4x4'x, truckies, etc. Just real issues.
AnswerID: 78179

Reply By: KO2004 - Wednesday, Sep 29, 2004 at 12:35

Wednesday, Sep 29, 2004 at 12:35
Well perhaps you could also tell them stories like ours.

We live in a small country town on the outskirts of the city and we own a Patrol. My husband starts work early and as such has to drive along the highway and has hit a kangaroo. Yes the bullbar was damaged but he was still able to drive safely. He also carries an array of tradesman's tools etc.

We have just come back from a trip to Cape York too! We also regularly visit our National Parks with the Patrol.

We have a 22ft boat to tow and we also regularly tow a horsefloat loaded with the kids pony. I think that people would rather see me towing these things around the city with the trusty patrol rather than my toyota corolla!!

We pay through the nose for our petrol taxes and believe me the ole patrol is a very thirsty girl. We pay hefty prices for tyres and all other mechanical repairs.

The patrol spends most days in the garage these days because we really can't afford to be running it around all the time.

Perhaps the government ought to give consideration to reducing the tax and associated registration for cars that make it out of the garage every now and then. It might encourage people to have a car for every day of the week!!
AnswerID: 78212

Sponsored Links

Popular Products (9)