Should I (and others) leave certain advertisers alone on this forum?

1 word......fitch

Its a consumers right to question or criticise any product that does not live up to its advertised performance.

In this instance all the questions or criticism has been leveled at Mr Futch because he cannot provide any substantiated proof that his product works as claimed.

When he is able to provide that independent, substantiated proof that his product works as claimed then all questions will cease in respect of his product and in fact we would all probably buy it.

I think that Bill is fair game since he is constantly advertising his product in the forum plus for the reasons stated by John. If I was selling a product that actually did increase engine performance, I would not reply to every post that has anything to do with car engines saying 'your problem is you don't use my product', sounding like a broken record. Advertising belongs in the advertising section.
A little while ago he posted a reply that had nothing to do with futch and I nearly fell off my chair!

I dont care if the feltch works or not! Imagine if every post was answered by sellers touting business like bill does with fuel problems.
For instance if I ask for opinions on why a vehicle is blowing smoke instead of helpfull replies all i get is diesal mechanics telling me to bring it in for a look
Or if wanting info on campsites i got bookstores offering to sell me map books etc
the forum would turn to crap

My first reply to this post, is actually a reply near the end, but I've got something to say on this point made by Bware (Tweed Valley). I agree that when Bill posts into the Forum he is far game - and our policy states very clearly that advertisers or no, no one is to use the Forum to self-promote their business. Our Forum modertors are employed specifically to deal with this so occurances of this directly by Bill or others are dealt with quickly. However, often the attack on Fitch comes up even without Bill being present in the Forum and this is what I think the original post is about and hence my reply at the end of the thread.

That's kinda what I was thinking.... might be time to dial it back a bit....

I mean, when push comes to shove, this forum is a wealth of info, and I spose anything we (as regulars) can do to welcome, rather than frighten, new users is a good thing.... I mean, the more people that come here, the more intelligent we are as a group.

All constructive criticism welcome!

Cheers,

Chump

A bit of self promotion will always turn up and, I believe that most people see it for what is and can accept it. It would be very hard to accept that there is not one of us who has not promoted themselves at one time or another.

Having said that I am of course speaking of "promotion", drawing attention to existing parameters, highlighting "facts". Things that exist, are provable, tangible, something you can see, feel or hold, things you know exist.

However when it comes to "that" particular promotor and his now very old and tired product that has I believe, been flogged around North America for some thirty odd years, it may be an entirely different matter.

Here we have a "product" that has never been proven to perform. We have had the most outlandish claims put forward on this forum. We have had promises of "tests" to be performed and published "shortly", etc.....: etc:

I then ask myself if this is "self promotion" or something entirely different, it's no secret on this forum I'm sure, that I believe it to be a case of false pretences in that the product is presented to do something it has never been proven to be able to do.

In my book that is no longer self promotion and becomes eligible for challenge.

Ian

Even Members have been known to bypass the Trader & advertise items both for sale or wanted in this forum.
What's the difference?

The frequency with which it is done v's a reply of any other nature.

lol - I guess I am owed a few freebies then....

GoneTroppo says it well - and this is precisely my point that I'm trying to get across in my couple of responses to this thread, hence the suggestion that biting your tongue when you see something come up about a product that you know has already been heavily discussed previously. Ignore and move on to a better subject is the suggest best course of action when the topic comes up (and alerting the moderators to any self-promoting posts of course!). Thanks :-)

Is the issue of Nissan "Not" placing adds on the forum an issue with lack of editorial control???

What I mean is that when a 4wd magazine does a product review on say a Nissan its always done with the biased view that Nissan is an advertising client and we need to protect our revenue base.
If the editorial review was "straight" then the results may very well burn a major client.

Nissan or any other advertiser can't control the opinion or comment "good or bad" of us the consumer on this forum or in any other forum or place that people are free to express an opinion.

It does not make sense in some respects, If you produce a good product then you should be happy to stand behind it, regardless of the opinion of a few who may disagree.
Not advertising on the forum won't stop opinion of the product.

That does make sense. There must be a line somewhere between profit & loss in any business. It is also a fine line one must tread between supporting someone for their ideology & just wanting their advertising dollar. Very touchy, because as I have just experienced to my great cost, an advertiser does have a duty of care in as much as he/she can also be held liable if a dispute erupts over what can be construed as "false or misleading" claims in advertising.
What I guess I am prattling on about is that the site owners have to decide whether or not the forum brings in business to their site, ie if you close the forum does the site also loose due to lack of interest from loyal followers who buy because of convenience of the site as a whole? Then the advertisers don't advertise as no one is hitting on the site, & the viscous circle continues....
Tough judgement to make....

Michelle, if you put this whole debate in the washing machine and see what comes out in the end, we, as consumers, want to see/read/hear that a particular product isn't just snake oil, being sold to people gillible enough to take the sellers word for it.

That's it. That's all. Nothing more.

The seller in question hasn't, and appears he can't, provide an answer to that question.

Sponsorship of this forum, or any other, has no influence on us, the consumer.

As for Nissan not wanting to be part of the forum advertising, that is not suprising at all. Many on the forum believe they have unsolved issues and those issues will never, ever, be forgotten simply because the company does or does not advertise with you.

Michelle ,Bill is the only advertiser that actively pushes his product in an open forum.
Sure you need the advertising revenue,but forum users need a forum where they can get advice from people not trying to flog a gadget that doesnt appear to comply with Australian Standards for testing.

On top of that a number of reputable independant organisations such as the RAC and NRMA warn against fuel saver gagets .
This site also prides itself on promoting honest and sensible advice for travellers but I feel that it compromises itself from taking money from those flogging fuel saver gadgets.
Maybe you need a rethink on whether items that dont comply with relevant standards should be advertised.
I bet you wont find FITCH or HICLONE being advertised in the RAC members monthly;)

Keep up the good work but those who appear to be ripping off the motoring public will always be considered fair game .

Another point, Michelle; It doesn't look good if an advertiser is allowed to bend the rules constantly when the majority of forum users abide by the rules most of the time.

Bware - I just want to clarify that we do NOT encourage, nor do we allow Bill or any other business (advertiser or not) to bend the rules. That is absolutely untrue and I must impress that fact upon anyone else reading this.

A web site like this will never do very well financially so the owners and obliged to take what they can get in the form of advertising dollar$. You can see by their retail prices that they are not at all competitive with the real world and as a result I purchase similar or the same products by phoning retail stores and get a far better price (up to 40%). I would be surprised if this site even has the ability to provide 1 reasonable full time income to anyone. It is just not doing enough. Its success is in its visitation and most of this is calculated every time someone opens a page in the forum. This is a flawed method of calculatng traffic and to advertisers can be misleading.

Given that, this website is probably OK for anyone new to 4WD travelling. It will not do anything for experienced 4WD enthusiasts other than to provide a method for communication and banter when you are bored. The positive side is that occasionally there is a bit of useful information communicated.

Slow regional download speeds make this website a bitch to use most of the time. By putting this massive amount of information and spinning wheels onto every page makes it even more painful to use.

Having said that the amount of stirring that Bill from Feltch gets is a bit unfair as he is a guy just trying to stay in business. He is not the only one that answers his post with a company logo. Look at Cape York Connections, ABR, denco etc... They all do it too.

To be honest I only jump on here occasionally (if the internet speed is OK) for a bit of timewasting. I dont even see the advertising on the sides and to be perfectly honest I wouldnt know who the page sponsors are (or care).

When I buy products I research them from their own websites and purchase direct. It is far cheaper shopping that way. Ex Oz is just not competitive at all.

Hey Spike, you obviously haven't seen the About Us page - this business is very much independently financial and the products in our online shop are all sold at, or below RRP with a 5% discount to members off most products and regular 10% discounts via newsletter specials for a month on certain categories you seem to have just totally overlooked all that. However, I'm not here to convince you about my business - you can do whatever you like but don't come on my site and tell lies due to ignorance.

Sorry, Michelle, I phrased that wrong. I was not insinuating that that is what is happening, but that it could be viewed that way.

Spike you really are a dick head.

Weather the owners of the site make money or not is none of your concern.
If you believe the prices are not competitive then don't buy, nobody is forcing you to.
But would disagree with your comments about the prices being uncompetitive, I believe they are and the convenience factor of good service and ease of purchase is always worth a few dollars extra to me.

As for the advertisers having their logo and details as a signature add on, well thats a benefit offered as part of their advertising arrangement with the site to further promote their respective company.
It also makes it clear that they have a vested interest in a product or service and that interest is clearly declared to all.

As for Internet speed, I have no issues, The site is largely as fast as any other I look at. I would suggest you have issues either with your hardware or the cheap shoddy ISP you are using.

Why don't you enlighten us as to How traffic to a web site should be calculated? I'm sure we would all love to learn from your expertise on the matter.

If the site is such a problem to you, then why don't you simply jump off and post somewhere else if you want to waste time.

John you are a big girl and a baby. Which of mothers skirts are you wearing today?

Must have missed something there????

Am I a "Big Girl" or a "Baby" don't think I can be both?????

Oh and by the way, you still have not answered the questions!!!!

Yep - absolutely, that's my point entirely so all the more reason to not make a song and dance about a product that you don't like. Doesn't make sense to give publicity to a product that is unfavourable whatever it is. Alert moderators to sel-promoters and ignore the undesirable posts whatever they are.

You would have to be one naive advertiser to think that by advertising on here or anywhere else for that matter you would be exempt from criticism.

As I said if you offer a good product then you stand behind it and if your product is crap then by placing your advertising to try and avoid criticism won't stop the opinion of the consumer.

Lots of advertisers on here who don't get bagged for the product or service they offer and appear to continue their advertising without negative comment about the opinions of the consumer on the forum.
Wonder why that is????

Criticism is fine, if you have FIRST HAND knowledge on which to base your facts!

ABR frequently say on this forum that they have this or that in stock to help someone out, that is advertising in itself, but seems to go through to the keeper.

ABR is a paid advertiser (Supporter of the site) and in my view there is nothing wrong with him responding to a question with a reasonable response along those lines.
I would also consider the fact that he was probably offering advice on the matter in the first place????

It would be similar to someone seeing his add in the paper and contacting him about stock availability & price etc.
Except that he has capitalised on his advertising dollar by being proactive and pre-empting the phone call.

Bill S is also a paid advertiser who cop's it because he cannot provide any facts about his product when reasonably requested to do so.

Criticism of Nissan is generally directed at the well known 3.0 litre issues and the companies attitude to the problem. (Yet to see someone criticise the 4.2 litre Nissan Patrol???)
Same level of criticism would be directed towards Toyota over front diff's and IFS issues and I would submit commonly is when the topic comes up.

Hi John,

Do a quick search of the forum on "overheating" or "5th gear"and see how many times the Nissan 4.2TD comes up. While I agree the Nissan 4.2TD is arguably the most reliable 4WD around, it is still not without a few problems.

Cheers

Captain

Captain, you beat me to it. I would say to you John, I have and will continue to be critical of the 4.2 I own. Specifically relating to the overheating and 5th gear.

The guts of the this matter is (and I have been guilty of not heeding my own ideology) that those without experience on a particular product should leave the answers to those that do have 1st hand experience, good or bad, on the discussed product. The verbal attack on individuals (advertisers, members or visitors) should not happen and I feel sad that I have let myself down on this level only recently.

Looking forward to reading and learning a lot more about this fantastic country and the vehicles and products required to travel it in relative safety.

Regards, Trevor.

Perhaps I should have said "I have yet to see criticism of the Nissan 4.2 to the same degree as that leveled towards the 3.0 L"

Your right no vehicle is without its issues but is anyone prepared to say that Nissan Australia's handling of the 3.0 litre issues has been anything but bloody woo full?

Hi John,

"anyone prepared to say that Nissan Australia's handling of the 3.0 litre issues has been anything but bloody woo full?"

NOPE not me.
Trevor.

Hi John,

You got it in one, any manufacturer is always going to have some fault at some stage with a vehicle, its how they deal with it that counts. Nissan has done an extremely poor job with the 3.0TD issues, but its deeper than just the 3.0TD IMHO, its their whole attitude to the customer (just a cash cow!!!).

I (well my 8yo daughter) broke the rear hi-level brake light cover due to a faulty design where if the rear doors are closed at the same time, the small door hits the break light cover on the large door and breaks it. While one can easily argue that it was my fault, the fact one has to know in which order to close the doors makes it a design fault IMHO (does one expect an 8yo to know?).

Anyway, the point is they wanted over $50 for a small plastic cover than was worth 2c and no way was warranty going to cover it. This on a vehicle that was in for a $900 service and had had several thousand dollars worth of servicing over the last 2 1/2 years, from the dealer the vehicle was purchased from. What was going to happen if I ever had a MAF sensor fail???

While you can argure that, I broke it I pay, on my wifes people mover my 6 yo son broke the plastic "shopping" hooks and not only did this get noticed during a service, but it was fixed for free under warranty. Now that was service and guess where I prefer to spend my $$$ on a new vehicle?

I am lucky enough to get a new vehicle every 3 years and while my Nissan has been great, the attitude on this $50 part may lose them up to $70,000 in the next few months.

Sorry for the ramble but I still fume at the amount of $$ spent on dealer servicing and no customer goodwill.

Cheers

Captain

"due to a faulty design where if the rear doors are closed at the same time, the small door hits the break light cover on the large door and breaks it."

"and no way was warranty going to cover it. "

- if goods are not of merchantable quality or not fit for purpose then you should lodge a complaint with the Dept of Fair Trading or equivalent in your state. There is no time limit on this. It doesn't matter whether the manufacturer includes this in their written warranty or not - it cannot over-ride state laws. Do they state in the Owners manual that if you close the doors in the wrong way you will break a light ?

I'm with you on this Shaker. If people have first hand knowledge then let us know. Unfortunately people who have NFI all jump on the band wagon. I have never had a fitch so can't comment one way or another.

All thats ever been asked of Bill S is to provide independent proof to support his claims.

No one other than Roachie and one or two others on here have said it made no difference to their fuel usage and / or performance.

In my view the entire point of the Futch debate has been directed at the spruker to substantiate his claim.
Until he can provide that independent proof I for one will regard the product as nothing more than crap.

Hi Mike,

The manual does say to close the big door before the little door, but doesn't mention anything about breakage if not done right. But how often does an 8yo read a manual - a design fault IMHO as its a thing done so easily.

But I suppose the point in this example is not the cost of the part but the attitude of Nissan. I can easily superglue the part back together but should I have too? And for this particular part its not worth pursuing via Fair Trading - but one day when I am retired and have time to follow thru...

Nissan spend a lot of money advertising for new customers, yet fail to look after the ones they have got (had!). Hopefully as an advertiser on this forum they look at the big picture and see just how many disgruntled customers they have over the sake of minor dollars.

Sorry for hijacking the orignal thread.

Cheers

Captain

I totally agree with John.

It's not complex. If it can do things we regard as technically improbable, prove it. It's a simple case of "put up or piss off".

Bill has done neither.

For anyone interested I still have some delightful waterfront properties available for sale in Queensland, at a very competitive price. I'm happy to show them to you at any time you like, just as long as it is at low tide.

Wow, Willie, touchy touchy :)) I agree with your main points but hey do you need another holiday mate ?

Maybe we should also moderate our criticism of our politicians whilst we are moderating our opinions on various products.

Maybe I'm wrong but I actually thought all this criticism of products and people was called Free Speech.

Willie, I agree with your comments. The main reasons that I Do Not purchase 4WD mags is because of the biased comment on the advertisers products and I have no desire to know how many slabs that Wammo can carry or Billyo can drink in a night around a fire.
I use EO and the net to do my research on places I intend to visit or products I am looking at purchasing.
Just my 2 bobs worth.

Hi John....was that "Free Speech" you were talking about?? If you are correct why then does it always come at a price?? LOL!! Catch you soon...after things have quietened down a bit eh. Leigh

Footie ,

What are you on about ? I am not in a bad mood , I felt I just stated the facts and was very polite .

I'm as happy as a pig in excrement .

What a dreadful rugby game tonight . I reckon the coach told them to play like that , surely and I reckon he needs to have his head read .

Cheers ,

Willie .

Willie, how did/does your Fitch your work?

Shaker ,

I don't have a F*tch on my car . The gent rang me up and offered to install one no charge , but I declined .

Why would I put a product on my $60,000 car which has not been subject to an independent test ? Why would I believe the claims of the promoter regarding this product when he will not substantiate anything ?

You seem gullible Shaker , so why don't you get one . You can post a typical test of the product - it should run like this - " it seemed to halve the smoke in the exhaust and the fuel consumption was way down on my trip from Moree to Sydney ". Don't bore us with any specifics , controlled testing etc .

Willie .

>> Why would I put a product on my $60,000 car which has not been subject to an independent test ?
maybe to find out if it actually worked? (havin a dig, we already know the answer to that LMAO!)

Willie, like yourself I have absolutely no idea if Fitch work or not.
Unfortunately there appears to be a pack mentality in some on this forum, of which you appear to be part of.
Derogatory comments that may affect people's livelihoods should be left to those qualified to make them. ie: Those with first hand experience.

Shaker,

Get this. Bill has made claims about the Fitch. He has been asked to sustantiate this with independent, scientific testing. He has failed to do so. These three statements are facts.

Commonsense would also dictate that if such a simple device made the improvements claimed, motor manufacturers all over the world be fitting them. In a world where the car giants strive for (and spend millions developing) just minute percentages of of consumption improvement, not one of them fit a Fitch. Doesn't this tell you something? It's pretty bloody obvious to me.

Cheers,

Jim.

Jimbo, I am only being the 'devil's advocate'

But if you also have no first hand knowledge, then you are just a member of the aforementioned 'pack'

Shaker,There is NO pack,organised or otherwise.
There is howver a number amongst us who believe in the right to question a products quality and the sellers credibilty.
No, I have not tried one because the advertiser in question has failed to provide acceptable evidence that his product can live up to its claims and at $500- $600 apiece I wont be trying one to find out.

And what is it with this "PACK" thing?
Is that the label you attach to anyone who questions something that you personally disagree with???

Truckster ,
" Why would I risk my $60,000 investment with an unproven product " might have been a better way of putting it . Does that make more sense to you now ?

Shaker - While the dont knock it till youve tried it saying has some merit. Somethings dont need to be tried - For instance I am confident in saying that something is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick without actually getting afformentioned stick shoved into eye to see it is not good
Same as i dont need to ivest in wonderfull tax effective schemes and other get rich quick paraphenalia that is in the post to confirm it is a ripoff.
Cmon - bit of common sense!!

Thats better willie.

Yeah, but we are not the Department of Fair Trading etc and none of our advertisers are illegal businesses so who are we to be the police on that?. If the product doesn't sell well then in time that business would surely go bust and hence no longer advertise. Obviously, we have a commercial reality and up to now, have never needed to consider that advertisers needed to pass a test that we devised.

I admit, however like any other consumer, that in today's world it is buyer beware. I personally, look very suspeciously at any product that says it is a miracle cure - but this is the same in many industries - food, toys, diet products, etc. No advertising medium in their right mind would take it upon themselves to police the viability of these products but certainly there are channels for consumer investigation if something is seriously suspect so that formal investigations can commence.

I just think its the businesses own decision if they think its worthwhile advertising on a certain medium and if they get results, they'll obviously continue, if they don't then they'll probably cease. I have no control over whether our audience buy from our advertisers or not and its certainly not my place to tell you or anyone in our audience that you should - that is totally your personal decision which is respected by all.

However, as the original post raised the issue of should we continue to harp on old ground when a product is unfavourable with this audience, then my answer was that well, no we probably should just ignore those posts and let the previous answers in the archives deal with it. This post for example was not initiated by the business owner (or was it???) and I think the point being raised was less about the specific business or product, but about the issue in general of how to deal with these posts. That's certainly why I got involved but I'm nearing the end of my time to contribute. I"d like to thank everyone for your contributions. I don't often get involved in posts but when the topic is directly related to my role in the business then I'll see it through to the end. So thanks for listening.

Michelle,

You can rest assured I am in no way related to BILLS....

Cheers,

Chump

LOL - I can't wait to get to work tomorrow - bloody emails will be a mess....

I can see your point, but in this advertisers case, there is no first-hand knowledge to begin with. I normally buy products based on the fact they are proven to work. Especially if it going onto something important like my car.

I used to import and sell winches. I had to do all sorts of testing, get all sorts of insurance, and basically be very careful what I claimed about them. This advertiser seems to be able to say whatever he wants, and gets away with it.

But I guess I am starting to mellow out in my old age a bit. Enough has probably been said about it, and if anyone wants to buy one - good luck to them.

I seem to have struck a nerve with quite a few people here - I'll have to think up another similar question one day soon...

Cheers,

Chump

Jim, I for one would be disappointed if it was removed, considering that the Site owners have requested replies and thought's on the matter and thats just what they are getting.

Hi Jimbo,
No I wasn't suggesting that anyone bite their tongues on expressing their opinion of a product when it comes up, that would definately go against everythign we've built the Forum to be, that's not what I"m saying however I was suggesting that it would be better to cease the constant going over the same ground, as has become the case with the example advertiser being discussed here.

Fair enough Michelle. I see your point. I feel the way the forum has been moderated over the last six months or more, to the most balanced it has ever been. The balance between the serious stuff and the banter has improved the fun level here, whilst not detracting from the exchange of useful information.

Cheers,

Jim.