Who would get the blame?

Submitted: Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 12:06

ThreadID: 39273 Views:3557 Replies:13 FollowUps:18

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Alan H

One of the erratic morning bike riders I compete with for road space on the way to work nearly met his maker at 0720 this morning.
Driving sedately in a northerly direction and approaching a roundabout at which I turn left, I observed a cyclist heading towards me on the pavement, on my left hand side.

Giving my normal clear indication of my intentions (rarely do cyclists ever bother to let other road users know what they're up to) I entered the roundabout and the fat oaf swerved across the junction right in front of me.
The ABS on my 4 wheel drive worked well and I just avoided flattening him which was just as well because at about 18 stone (how much is that in kg?)he would have made a more than sizable dent in the bonnet of the vehicle despite the roo bar!

I hurled the usual compliment out the window as his head jerked round in my direction ( he obviously hadn't seen me and was no doubt absorbed in the sound coming from his walkman) ...."You fat wanker" and he blithely cycled on and disappeared in the direction of the Police Academy.
The oaf maybe an instructor within that establishment.

Now this is the point, if he's a cop and I believe he is, how hard would it be for me to prove I'd clearly indicated my intentions if he'd been flattened?

Would the the fact that I drive a 4 wheel drive automatically mean I was guilty? That would certainly be the only fact published or commented upon.

Would the bull bar be blamed for having caused his death or injuries despite him not being aware/interested/too copper arrogant to care about what was happening on the road around him?

Why was he riding on the pavement? Is he above the law?

Why is a Nissan sporting the flag of Scotland which parks outside the academy allowed to have a "rocket launcher" attached to his bull bar?
Is it OK for him as he works there, or possibly was training there, or are they so unobservant that they haven't seen it?

I haven't got anything against cops, they do a job I couldn't and wouldn't do, although I admit to having no respect for either the basic driving of many police drivers or their policing of the road rules.
"Don't do as I do, do as I tell you".

Alan H

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Reply By: Member - Craig D (SA) - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 12:13

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 12:13

Which police academy?

AnswerID: 203885

Follow Up By: Alan H - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 12:17

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 12:17

Not yours.
A.

FollowupID: 463576

Follow Up By: Member - Andrew (QLD) - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 12:25

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 12:25

Police Academy 4: Citizens on Patrol

FollowupID: 463577

Reply By: Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 12:38

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 12:38

Hi Alan ,
I guess police can break the law and make mistakes just like everyone else . The part which is scary though , is that his word would be believed before yours if there was an accident .
Cheers ,
Willie .

AnswerID: 203888

Follow Up By: Alan H - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 12:42

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 12:42

Yes Willie, we all make mistakes but luckily most of them don't lead to death or injury and hopefully we learn something from them.
Happy motoring.
Alan H.

FollowupID: 463580

Reply By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 12:45

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 12:45

By "pavement", do you mean footpath...??? If so, it's illegal to ride a pushbike on the footpath unless it's a designated shared path. When utilising shared paths, as a cyclist, you must give reasonable way to pedestrians and also give way to motorists where the shared path intersects a roadway...

AnswerID: 203890

Follow Up By: Alan H - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 12:50

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 12:50

It isn't a shared pathway Blue. He obviously is above the law and wasn't looking where he was going either.
Giving way is not even considered by most road users let alone riders like him ...... completely inattentive.
Bloke I know rides a low rider bike and his idea of giving way to other users is to shout obscenities at them ."Get out the ****ing way"!
Such a pleasant person.
Alan H.

FollowupID: 463581

Follow Up By: GaryInOz (Vic) - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 19:21

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 19:21

"Mascot" material next time. Lovely bonnet emblem.

Gentle nudge to get him to realise that he should be looking at the road and not his old fella...

FollowupID: 463649

Reply By: Member - MUZBRY (VIC) - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 13:04

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 13:04

Gday
He is not aloud to ride his or her bike on the footpath if he or she is over twelve or fourteen,not sure which, but he is in the wrong....

and thats about 114.5 kg......

Muzbry
Great place to be Mt Blue Rag 27/12/2012

Lifetime Member
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AnswerID: 203894

Follow Up By: Alan H - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 13:11

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 13:11

Hi MUZBRY.
Whether he's allowed to or not, he was. But irrespective of that who would get the blame?
As I've comitted all the sins by driving a 4 wheeler with a bull bar what do you reckon?
In the present climate of opinion I've no doubt it would be impossible for me to prove my innocence....... "Guilty until he proves his innocence"!

FollowupID: 463585

Follow Up By: GaryInOz (Vic) - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 19:25

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 19:25

If he was breaking the law when the accident occurred then he is at fault, no question. No different to going through a red light and causing an accident, be it in a car or on a bicycle. He is as much obliged to respect and obey the road rules as you are.

FollowupID: 463650

Reply By: Member - Stephen L (SA) - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 13:11

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 13:11

Hi Alan
Thank goodness he was not hurt, as can you just imagine the headlines
"Four Wheel Drive with Anti Person Bar Strike again"

It makes you very cross that people like this feel that they are always in the right of way and you are in the wrong for just being on the road.

Like above, if he was a Policeman, you would be in the wrong which ever way it was.

Once again, keep our eyes on the Lookout for that ever present Fat Bike Rider.

Cheers

Stephen

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AnswerID: 203895

Reply By: Voxson (Adelaide) - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 13:58

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 13:58

Dont worry about cops guys......
If they are in trouble and they can burn a civillian,,,, or change the story,,,,,

It would be like picking a fight with an abo in Coober Pedy.....

AnswerID: 203900

Follow Up By: Pezza (Bris) - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 16:57

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 16:57

Oooohhhh, that's a brave statement mate !!! LOL.
Better you than me :-))

BTW. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Avagoodn
Pezza

FollowupID: 463614

Reply By: Joombi - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 14:22

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 14:22

Sounds like he didn't see you for colon he had his head that far up his ar$e...
LMAO@voxon

AnswerID: 203902

Reply By: Gerhardp1 - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 16:37

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 16:37

Although he is apparently doing everything wrong (his opinion clearly differs from yours, but what is "right" anyway?), the fault would be yours.

This sounds harsh, but as a car driver you cannot assume anything, what I mean is, how are you to calculate whether the rider is fat/thin, under/over 12 (or whatever), whether it is a shared footpath (irrelevant anyway since the fact is the rider is there), etc, etc before you decide whether you can hit him or not and be legally in the right.

The fault would be yours also if you were driving a Getz instead of a 4wd, so what you are driving is also irrelevant, also irrelevant is all the other emotions you felt.

I'm not having a go at you, but clear thinking is required when the shock and emotion of a near miss is put aside.
I believe I know how you felt, as I once went through a school crossing red light when I was 18 and missed a child by a bees d!ck. I could have blamed the child, since we were taught emphatically back then to look left, right, left again before proceeding, but he didn't. It was still my fault.

AnswerID: 203927

Follow Up By: Alan H - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 16:50

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 16:50

Gerhardp1. If I'm on the road clearly indicating my intentions and a cyclist who should not have been where he was gets flattened because he's not paying attention, how can that possibly be my fault?
I'm fully in agreement that we should be aware of others on or off the road and be taking all precautions, but that is exactly what he was not doing. I wasn't checking anything out to determine whether I could hit him and be blameless, I was just bloody annoyed someone who should know a darn sight better nearly got squashed!
We're all responsible for our own welfare firstly, but should give every possible consideration to others especially those like cyclists who are so vunerable.
Moons ago I was a very keen cyclist and have every sympathy towards riders now I'm getting fat old and ugly.
I give way to them and others regardless of whether I'm in the right or wrong.
Alan H.

FollowupID: 463611

Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 17:32

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 17:32

You seem to have missed my point.

As a licensed driver, you have to assume that a cyclist, who is never licensed and never has to do any test, is always going to do the stupid thing. You did that, and after no-one was hurt, are now unhappy that he appeared to be a policeman, but as I said before you couldn't have known that in advance. It could have been a 12 year old child. All your other exasperations are not relevant to the key point, they are your emotions which are real only to you. As I said before, it's happened to me but I didn't blame the near victim, you are seeking to blame the near victim because , paraphrase, "it can't possibly be my fault".

Many cyclists are children, and they are NOT responsible for their own welfare despite what you say. As a motorist you are responsible for the welfare of any children (or unlicensed adults) who are in your words extremely vulnerable, and who do the stupid thing near your 4wd.

Clear thinking is required.

FollowupID: 463619

Follow Up By: Alan H - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 18:13

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 18:13

Gerhard1. I actually asked who would have been blamed if the cyclist had been hurt, not who would have been at fault.
Being as he appeared to be a copper I was and still am of the opinion that I would automatically be blamed because he of course is a highly trained person who should be more aware of what's going on around him.
The fact is that he wasn't and nearly got knocked off, so as far as I'm concerned that is his fault.
I don't assume that all cyclists are naturally going to do the wrong thing at all, but I certainly give them a wide berth and take all precautions even going as far as to stop if I may come into conflict with them especially children. I'd rather suffer a minor inconvenience than be held responsible for death/injury to anyone even if that person should have known better.
Thanks for your thoughts, most forumites would appear to be of the same opinion as myself and I'm now toddling off to have some amber liquid.
Alan H.

FollowupID: 463635

Follow Up By: GaryInOz (Vic) - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 19:31

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 19:31

Let it be known at the local cop shop that one of their members is regularly seen riding on the footpath, and has in fact come close to causing an accident. If you can identify the bike/helmet, then the other police should know who you are referring to and perhaps word him up that he has been noticed by the public breaking the road rules. Gentle reminder that it is not good public relations going into the holiday season....

FollowupID: 463654

Reply By: Sand Man (SA) - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 16:43

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 16:43

Alan,

Perhaps you have it all wrong mate.

Perhaps he is riding the bike to work because he has already lost his driver's licence performing other questionable "acts":-)

Bill

I'm diagonally parked in a parallel Universe!

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AnswerID: 203931

Follow Up By: Alan H - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 16:55

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 16:55

Hi Sand Man.
That's not beyond the bounds of possibilty either. I knew a bloke used to write for the local rag and he was disgusted that his son was a copper when he'd lost his licence for drink driving.
I know they're struggling to keep up with the attrition rate but keeping someone like that on is not good enough.
As I said before it's not a job I could or would do but the majority of those in the job do a good one.
Alan H.

FollowupID: 463613

Follow Up By: Member - Duke (TAS) - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 20:33

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 20:33

Allen H
6 Demerit points for missing him.
Duke

FollowupID: 463672

Reply By: WDR - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 19:06

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 19:06

The joys of life's little misses.

I was in lane Cove this morning in a line of cars waiting for traffic at a T junction which was being held up by a traffic light on red, we were all then going to join said traffic.
The light changes and everyone starts moving (slowly because of environment) and a motor cyclist courier suddenly explodes off the footpath to the right of me - facing the T junction and speeds across sin front of the Nissan Patrol in front of me - The poor damn Nissan driver could not have seen him coming without eyes in the back of his head.
Needless to say there was significant braking, horn blowing, gesticulating by the mbr etc... - No doubt the poor guy in the Nissan went home and has a still cup of something.
Cycles and motor bikes have gone from the nuisance category to the downright dangerous / abusive / intolerant / threat to the normal population. The attitude of the law enforcement people in this regard is reprehensible in Sydney and no doubt in other parts of Australia too.
My sympathies to you,

Cheers

AnswerID: 203963

Reply By: Member - Stephen M (NSW) - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 19:32

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 19:32

Saw a good sighn on the front of a patrol bullbar at the nissan trials the other day. "DONT BAN BULLBARS BAN STUPID PEDESTRIANS" how appropriate for what happened to you. Glad you didnt hit him thou as it would have been you having to live with it especially if you had killed him. Should have followed him to where he was going and had a few words. Regards Steve M

AnswerID: 203975

Reply By: Ray Bates - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 19:53

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 19:53

I remember a few year ago a kid was knocked off his bike and seriously injured. The car driver was not to blame and never charged but there was uproar when the drivers insurance company sued the kids parents for the damage to the car. I believe it got on the media.
What also makes me angry are motor cycle cops on patrol in shirt sleeve order. A very dangerous practice as well as not setting a good example to the general public.

AnswerID: 203984

Follow Up By: Muzzgit [WA] - Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 23:24

Thursday, Nov 09, 2006 at 23:24

Your damn right about the shirts sleeves. If anyone wants to see what bitumen does to bare skin at 100 klm/h you should have seen me 20 years ago, having a nurse scrape the sand out of red raw flesh. I was wearing shoes, jeans and a proper riding jacket and the road wore straight through my jeans and shoes like a coarse sanding belt through wax.

Riding a bike wearing shorts and singlet on a hot day is asking for realy painfull trouble.

FollowupID: 463728

Follow Up By: Member - John R (NSW) - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 04:59

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 04:59

Been there done that Muzz.

You know it's REALLY gonna hurt even more, when the Casualty Nurse comes in laughing, holding a pair of those oversize tweezers and says:

"THIS IS GONNA HURT YOU MORE THAN IT HURTS ME!"

Jeez I hate that.......

FollowupID: 463752

Follow Up By: Member - Bradley- Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 11:44

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 11:44

LOL - you want to see what happens to lycra shorts and top when you hit the deck at 60-70. ohhhh yeahhhhhh baby, standing in the shower with the nail scrubbing brush cleaning gravel etc out of self .....

FollowupID: 463827

Reply By: robak (QLD) - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 12:42

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 12:42

Alan,

This guy sounds like he needs a good hit - by a car or otherwise - so that he realises that the world doesn't revolve around him.

Anyway, the guilty person would be the one that broke the law.
I'm not sure which state you're in but in QLD cyclists are allowed to ride on footpaths unless it's specifically forbidden.

From what you've written my guess is that the cyclist was traveling in the same direction as you but on the footpath. When you turend left at the roundabout, he went stright across the road you were about to turn into, correct?

Well, once again in QLD, if a cyclist (who was riding on the footpath) was to cross the road they MUST walk the bike across the road, not ride it. However, if this pedestrian is crossing the road which you're turning into YOU must give way to them (not sure about roundabouts though).
So the anwer is:
1. If he rode across the road - his fault
2. If he walked across the road - yours

Another point to note is that cyclists can overtake vehciles on the left unless the vehicle is turning left.

Cyclists can also travel in the left lane of a multi-lane roundabout if leaving more than halfway around a roundabout, but must give way to vehicles exiting from the roundabout. So there.

I don't think you did anything wrong.

AnswerID: 204106

Follow Up By: Alan H - Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 13:02

Friday, Nov 10, 2006 at 13:02

Hi Robak.
No he was travelling towards me on my side of the road.
If it had been a pedestrian I would have given way if they'd started walking across, but being as he was a bike rider and I had clearly indicated my intentions and I had entered the rondabout I expected him to slow down at least and allow me to complete my manouver.
If I hadn't seen him (but I would have to be have blind not to) as I approached the roundabout the end result may have been different with a hurt rider and a very big dent in the bonnet.
I've seen some very dangerous manouvers before on these small roundabouts and am especially wary of cyclists, I know the probs. they have to contend with from stupid pigs in cars/trucks etc. so I tend to always err on the side of caution.

They've certainly got the same rights as us on the road but it's a pity more of them don't accept they've the same responsibilities as well especially as they are the ones more likely to get hurt if not killed.
That's part of the problem these days though, very few people want to accept that they're responsible as well for their own safety, not just everyone else!
Alan H.

FollowupID: 463843

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