Japanese low powered diesels

The new Toyota beauty will run on turps will it?

Dream on.

It won't run on turps any more than the Audi will.

or a Renault... ;-)

Various grades of mineral turpentine (Avtur 1 to Avtur 5) have been used in Malaysia on recent Toyota vehicles in some of the mines, as a cheap and reasonably suitable substitute for diesel in remote areas (serviced solely by light turbine aircraft). Far easier to only use one sort of fuel in those environments. It is not ideal, but does work.

I can't see Toyota being so short sighted to cut themselves out of an entire market (mining).

isnt Avtur a variation of Kerosine not Turpentine???

Yes it is Fisho, as you point out it's an acronym for Aviation Turbine Fuel.

But facts can get in the way of an emotional argument. :))

Yes I can see how it would be easy to be seduced by turpentine's attributes!

fact is turps is made from wood resin, avtur from hydrocarbons.

having said that though I have no idea how it would go in a modern diesel, and you would be brave to try it!

OK, OK, OK. My bad... I was thinking "Kerosene" but wrote "Turpentine" due to the Avtur similarity of sound....

I did however correctly identify that diesels can run on differing weights of Avtur (Jet A1 - Jet A5)

The 3.0Di is an engine designed and built by Nissan and supplied to Renault under a technology sharing agreement that sees almost all other technology supplied by Renault to Nissan.

Re Garyinoz thread - What a load of crapparoo

There is an equivalent to a troopy?????

Case conclusively closed.

I'm aware that they are dearer than the Jap stuff, but a fully loaded Prado diesel can't be described as cheap?

Prado Grande listed on discountnewcars.com.au at $73080, Audi Q7 listed in the drive.com.au e-catalogue at $85070, not sure if the Audi price includes on roads

I'm just a bit frustrated that the Japs aren't really offering a similar engine.

The answer is quite simple. As I stated the Japanese are aimed at the all types/qualities of fuel markets (World market), whereas the Euros are aimed specifically at the Euro market, but if you happen to have fuel good enough you can have them too (this being specifically why we could not get anything else but the lowest tech eurodiesel until recently due to the sulphur content and other impurities in our diesel).

You are comparing engines that are made to run on two VASTLY differing qualities of fuel (similar to 91 RON petrol and Nitromethane)

You make a valid point about the quality of diesel in remote markets, but I can't agree that the Euro manufacturers are not interested in the World Market.

Mercedes, Audi, VW, BMW (forget the Frog vehicles - I for one will NEVER buy a vehicle from those who exploded nuclear weapons in our backyard) are pretty interested in the World Market with their diesels. VW is at the forefont in AU - Golf sales testify to that, and the others have a wide range of diesels.

But there is nothing stopping toyota releasing a competitive engine in the Prado. All car manufacturers have different specs for different countries.

"Mercedes, Audi, VW, BMW...are pretty interested in the World Market with their diesels"....now..........

Hasn't always been the case though has it?

"But there is nothing stopping toyota releasing a competitive engine in the Prado. All car manufacturers have different specs for different countries."

Yes there is. Toyota are catering for the "backwater" countries and it is easier to design one set of engines and do minor fiddles with them to suit local conditions (none of the differences between markets are that great, and more often related to how they measure things, eg Japanese "ps" vs the "kW"). This does have the effect of having to cater for the lowest common denominator in the equation as a base, rather than being able to have a higher spec engine as a base. Maintenance and reliability issues are a concern too, given some of the routine services we have may not be available to people in other countries.

Toyota is the largest car company in the world.

If any manufacturer is capable of releasing different engines to different markets it is Toyota.

To lumber the world with old technology because Zambia wants to buy the vehicle is ridiculous.

Many far smaller companies release different engines for different countries without problems.

Bas show, I'm afraid, for Toyota.

I'm intrigued that you feel the Golf is highly stressed?

This car is tof of the list for a replacement for SWMBO's car.

What RPM is it at 100k's?

Your economy is much better than most of the Journos credit the vehicle with, but it's what I would expect. Is it DSG or manual?

What are the scheduled service costs like?

Don't get me wrong, it's fantastic particularly on the HWY. It's a 6 speed manual and sits just under 2k @ 100k. The torque is amazing and does not ever require a gear change up hills @100km/h. We have averaged 5.8L/100k since new (22,000k). Hwy ranges from 4.8L/100k to 5.5. City 5.5 to 6.5. We get 850k from a tank around Canberra and 900 to 950 on the Hwy.

Services to 45k on corporate plan are free but from memory they were not overly cheap but are at 15k intervals. From memory the 75k (major) service was $6-$800.00.

I'm not totally convinced that a 2L diesel that has so much power is going to be as reliable as the older style engines but can't fault it as yet.

Thanks for that info.

I don't think you need worry about durability - the Golf is approx 1200-1400kg depending on the model and it is a 2.0 litre. Even a 2.0 litre petrol would be unfussed lugging all that weight!! :)

Now if you bunged another 2 pots onto it you would have 3 litres (50% increase) and increased the weight of the car by 50% to 2100kg you would have a medium (albeit a bit slim) 4WD wagon with 154kw and 480nm (50% increase). Fuel consumption maybe 9-10 which all sounds plausible to me.

Lots of prayer required :)

Just had a thought - Jeep (choke) has what I'm looking for in an engine - 5 cyl too, usually smoother than V6.

Common-rail direct electronic fuel injection
Engine Block: 3.0L CRD I-5
Maximum Power: 160kW@4350rpm
Max Torque: 510Nm@1600-2800rpm

Pity it's in a Jeep.

Toyota/Nissan take note - it can be done.

Now, how can I shoehorn that engine into the Jack - anyone interested in a project.....

I can see why Toyota are conservative. Nissan have had a bad run with the 3L diesel which was considered powerful when it came out and their reputation is up the creek.

It's actually a eurodiesel engine in a Jeep........

Out of the same factory as the Jeep Grand Cherokee is manufactured (Germany IIRC)

Hi Davo,

Nissan's fault for using French rubbish in my opinion. The French like exploding bombs in and around AU - maybe they specifically re-designed the engine for here?

They did replace them all in the UK though, maybe the French wouldn't come to the party for total replacement in AU.

Do they hate us more than the Poms??? I hope so, cause the feeling's mutual.

Getting off topic here .....

Power is available in a 4wd.

Power and 4wd drive ability are not mutually exclusive.

Progress!!!

Hi Phil,
There are countless posts on this forum and others where people spend thousands on aftermarket turbos, power chips, etc to make their 4.2 litre diesels produce more power. I'm sure a sport car wouldn't do the job for them.

When buying something new, I like to have available the latest technology for consideration. Toyota and Nissan don't offer it.

Jeep (choke) does
Common-rail direct electronic fuel injection
Engine Block: 3.0L CRD I-5
Maximum Power: 160kW@4350rpm
Max Torque: 510Nm@1600-2800rpm

Won't buy a Jeep though, even if it is a beaut Merc engine.

Jimbo,
Give me a diesel 4wd with big torque at low revs over one with power anyday.

Gerhard,
Soon after the M series Merc 4wds came out, there was an amazing stat that stuck in my mind. There were more Mercedes that broke down in the Simpson Desert than any other make. And the problem was that the motor would stop, and no one could fix them - had to be shipped back to the dealers.

People buy the jap vehicles for their RELIABILITY.

Phil,

When I go to the Vic High country with my usual group, one of them drives a Troopy with the 4.2 engine you love.

There's a hill heading north out of Dargo (still on bitumen) which is a good winding climb.

For some reason the low torque petrol engine in my Jackaroo keeps propelling me up his rear end unless I back off all the time.

Where is his torque? I can't rev fast enough to get into my torque band let alone my power band when I'm following him. Same applies when in low range - he's revving his tyts off in low low and I keep having to stop on a cutout so I don't clobber him from behind.

I hear what you say about breakdown in remote regions, but what are you going to do when the old, dirty (pollution) 4.2s can no longer be sold? You will only be able to keep it running for so long before they will be outlawed by Kyoto or similar agreements.

This happened with 2 strokes - Bike racing, Kart racing, outboards are all under severe pressure, Kia could no longer sell its dirty Pregio. Even the super clean Euro diesels are under pressure to clean up even more.

> For some reason the low torque petrol engine in my Jackaroo keeps propelling me up his rear end unless I back off all the time.

Gee, your petrol engine is faster than his diesel?? WOW.
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I bet yours is revving harder than his too..

YMMVYAW

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Wrong.

When he's in low low revving his tyts off at 3300rpm I'm nowhere near that, even though I'm auto.

But I'd like to have his engine braking going downhill, however that's nothing to do with the torque the 4.2 reputedly has.

I'm with Phil, there is no substitute for low down grunt if you want to carry a big load over vast distances in remote areas, keep it simple and reliable, something that the average bod can fix on the side of the track, that will handle the overloading that most do when doing a remote area trip.
Speed is mostly irrelevant when travelling, we usually sit on 90-95 k's on the road expressways included and it is amazing the numbe rof vehicles that fly past all day time and again and camp at the same spot each day as we do and then have to replace tyres and or repair vehicles due to the excessive speed

What a load of crapperoo

ok garry where is your constructive comment ?? ...You think it is crap then put a constructive comment to prove me otherwise!!!! otherwise BUT OUT...666TOY

666, ignore him. I got the same treatment with no explanation of his viewpoint either.

Both of your comments speak for themselves - you guys made the statments - it is up to you to back up your statements - where are the facts rather than emotive statements - it is not up to me to show why you are wrong - it is up to you to show why you are right - show me the FACTS not motive crapparoo.

garry

Yep, apparently they "don't last". I'm sure AUDI would argue with that, given that their diesels have won the LeMans 24hour. Can't remember the tortoise even entering the race though! The Golf cruises at 100k at less than 2000rpm - that's really going to wear it out fast - not.

I agree that the Nissan engine would be right up there if increased to 3l, similar extrapolation to the Golf 2l expanding to 3l. They'd be better off fitting your Mitsi engine :)

Toyota learned what they know about engines years ago. Their first petrol was a Chev and the diesel was a Merc, that's where the reliability came from. They've kept up to date in the petrol field but have dropped the ball with diesels and fallen far behind.

It's intriguing that even Isuzu, arguably the world leader in diesels, doesn't have a product either - eg the 1.9 used in the Opels is 88kw or thereabouts and the Rodeo's engine is good but only on a par with the just superseded Toyota.

On the Astra, was at a Holden dealership on a totally unrelated matter when it was mentioned that HSV have a souped up HSV version and it goes extremely well - so well he was saying that it was blowing away some of the bent 8's. Wasn't there to see that but that's but sounded pretty impressive coming from a mechanic (not saleman)

Kind regards

yet to see a eurotrash diesel do 400,000klm on a original eng. merc benz 4x4 seem to have a real problem keeping going here in Aus.
If euro diesels were the top of the range why is the most common eng fitted to trucks today a Cummins Cat or Detroit..?
Why do most large trucking company's still use Mack, Kenworth Or Western star trucks? & i can assure you it is not because they are cheaper!
The answer is THEY LAST & HAVE FAR LESS PROBLEMS THAN A EUROTRASH TRUCK & there aftersales service is second to none. Just try dealing with volvo out at say Tambo it is nearly impossible to get cooperation.
A friend of mine who is all so in the mechanical trade has already had quite a few vw eng come to him lately as well as numerous merc benz eng .He all so states that the most unreliable vehicle on the road is that god awful merc benz van. So if there vans & cars are already having bad problems how much hope is there for there 4x4,s I don't think there is a lot there at all .
The problem is they are trying to squeeze to many ponies out of too smaller eng.
As for what would i know ?...hmm... i am only a heavy diesel mechanic.
You stick to your eurotrash gerhard your making people like me wealthy . Mean while i will plan my next trip across the ann-beadell highway in my ultra reliable TOYOTA...666toy

you sound like one angry dude.... I am sure all the Euro car companies are using Toyota as their benchmark.... trying to achieve low specific power and torque outputs, while using more fuel is quite an achivement. By the way, i dont see the connection between Detroit Diesel, Caterpillar, Cummins - and Toyota

90kw for a Prado 3L diesel - how did they do it??? that is some achievement! how dare they go up to 127kw, that is really pushing it beyond it's limits! (for a Toyota anyway) go back to playing with your little toy.

What some of you guys are forgetting is that this new common rail thing is all pretty new and you cant expect every new common rail to be a successful engine. The nissan 3.0L is probably one example. BUT the nissan is now fairly reliable from nearly all reports. Therefore they are starting to refine a new technology. Euro cars have been refining diesels for even longer and therefore are even better. The japs dont care for innovation, they are just copiers of the great innovators, they always have been and continue to be. When the new BMW style hit the roads the japs were so far away its not funny, but now they are beginning to look similar. This is because they dont think outside the square. The toyota 4.2 is the biggest heap of crap in every way other than one point - reliability - and even then a lot of thats market hype, cause there would be heaps of euro diesels which have the same reliability record if you looked into it. ( i have not but logic dictates that a part of the world producing diesels fo so long would have to have made some excellent engines over time) So basicly if your happy with old technology then buy a toyota, then go to sleep at traffic lights because your so tired of blandness. If you want progress buy a euro car, they are innovative and always progressing, making some mistakes but on the whole are a better product. Over there remember they dont pay a premium like we do so its not really fair to say they cost more, also if you say they are an average priced car in eurpoe, then command a premium here, its amazing to see they are in business, the point is they have a better build quality.

Dont know where you get the angry bit from pagero ? The trucking industry leads the way in development for economy vs power vs reliability in a diesel eng.
So there fore the tech effect gets put down the line eventually into the 4x4,s that we all love . Hino (Toyota) & Cummins have been sharing info for quite some time as have Cat & mitsubishi. What they don't share just gets copied anyway by the japs. I bet my Toyota has done more klm already than your pagero ever will my friend ;) Who leads world sales in 4x4s ? TOYOTA there has got to be something in it . I love my little toy ...666toy

I sold my Pajero a long time ago, but thanks for playing anyway - sorry, no consolation prizes...- let's be honest about what Toyota have done... what were they first at doing? To use diesel? No To first use common-rail diesel? No (last company in the world to) if it wasnt for the "Euros" Toyota wouldnt have ever made it past 90kw! LOL they will catch up (to everyone else) one day. The most disappointing thing is, they have a lot of experience at producing diesel engines...Did Toyota invent the term "SUV"? no! -no they can only invent counter terms like "AUV" as if it was completely original or something. By the way, Ford sell more F150s than Toyota sells Corollas. That was a useless fact I don't care about, i am just hitting you with your own sword. I don't base my purchases on sales stats. There is a Toyota, i wouldn't mind owning - that's if Toyota Australia ever dare bring it out here - that is a 2007 Tundra with the 4.4L TDV8 (common-rail as based on the "Eurotrash" diesels) i like cubic capacity too, but as long as it's got some decent technology inside it.
By the way the forthcoming Toyota 4.4 Twin Turbo TD will have around 220kw/650Nm - the Ford/PAG 4.4TDV8 will have 265kw/800Nm
i like cubic capacity too, but as long as it's got some decent technology inside it.
- not just a big iron block with a turbo tacked on to it. The Audi Q7 6L V12TDI and VW Touareg V10 TDI that use 11 litres per 100km would struggle to keep up with a 130kw Toyota diesel that gets 15L per 100km i am sure.....Oh yeah, but the Toyota has "DAT" which will get it to do anything you want of course...

f4phantom, for the record, the Nissan ZD30Di is not Common Rail but is Direct Injection, hence 3.0Di not 3.0 CRD.

OT

High tec bs has no place in the scrub it justs creates more headaches proven fact .
Big iron block with turbos works well . proven reliability unlike the eurotrash .
Just for the record i have a 6bgt isuzu mounted in a old f 100 it delivers the goods with 460ft lb @ 1800 rpm 180hp @ 2500rpm & still gives 11ltr @ 100kph These figures checked on a dyno so dont argue ..396cui with iron block straight 6 with a turbo while less than your twin turbo,d bucket of bolts tecno crap I guarantee it will pull it in half not to mention these eng,s have a very high durability rate over 10,000hrs is not uncommon . This truck will take off in top gear.Pushrods Iron blocks & big cubes win the long lasting race ill convert for you ..
600.63nm@1800
134kw@2500rpm
6.5ltr eng
this is serious grunt
its all horses for courses as for me i will stick to the old school of doing things if i cant buy it with what i want i will build it & it will still outlast any eurotrash & in some cases will exceed it in real grunt in a tougher package. Like i said Toyota has proven themselves & so had Nissan until the patrol 4 banger came along. Like i said to some other joker "you stick to your eurotrash your keeping me wealthy" Your entitled to your thoughts but figures on paper mean nothing without reliability & long lasting ability . Not to mention that if it fails out bush it needs to be able to be worked on by the local mechanic unless you want a huge bill to freight it to your nearest capital city. Have a nice day....666toy you can lead a horse to water but you cant make the bugger drink

"Who leads world sales in 4x4s ? TOYOTA there has got to be something in it"

yeah .. it's like 1000 flies can't be wrong... they still sit on .hit..

Oh what a feeling not to have to drive a Toyota ... I had Mercs and BMWs all my life .. no diesel though .. too slow .. and engine problems was never an issue ..

Very interesting how some here argue from heresay or their "bluecollar pub I heard something" mentality ...

Why is it that you all get aggrevated about defending your purchase ? or whatever it is ...

have fun
gmd

You only wish you drove a merc or bmw you silly little man. TOYOTA LEADS 4X4 SALES READ IT & WEEP IF THEY WERE NO GOOD NOBODY WOULD BUY THEM YOU CLOWN. Then again you are just a antagonist who only wishes he could own a 4x4 or a bmw or merc .Are you still having problems paying your ea falcon off mr gmd..have a nice day fool..666TOY

when you hit a dog he barks... roflmao

Your right. I am doing the hitting & your doing the yelping lmao fool. Its all so very hard to argue with a idiot so good night no reply necessary as you have been weighed measured & found wanting . "ANGUIS IN HERBA" _gmd_pps.
.................................666TOY..................................

Most profound statement in thread (IMHO).

Cheers
Greg

you obviously haven't seen the video clip of the Touareg pulling the 747, or the Audi Q7 being thrashed around off-road without fuss... or even every Range Rover and Discovery out there hitting the trails, or pulling heavy horsefloats at competitions, or the Land Rover dealership at the Docklands taking every car they have around their test track all day every day, and still not a sign of wear on the cars, - no squeeks or rattles, - i agree with the part about it getting fixed in Meekatharra though, but that is only a benefit of ownership - not a reason why the car is better. The Range Rover, Discovery, Merc G class, Audi Q7, and VW Touareg are all rated to tow 3,500kg and have better off-road capabilities than a standard Prado/LC100and yes i can back that up with experience (except the Q7 and Merc G Class)

Yep Paj,
I've seen all the "stunt videos", I've seen all the Discos towing horse floats, seen all the dealers taking round 'n round test tracks,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

But I don't see too many of 'em being sold and I don't see too many of 'em 250kms north east of Laverton (WA) or 250 kms east of Marble Bar.

Must be a reason eh?

Bilbo

PS - I'm with "666Toy" on this one. I'm an (ex) heavy truck mechanic too. There is simply no substitute for cubes and cast iron when you want long-term reliable grunt.

Look at the number of Euro cars in general, not just diesels, that arrive here in "Oz" and look at how many fade away after a few years. Euro cars just don't cut it here in "Oz". We need cars with long legs that can be abused, not something that looks good towing a 2 horse float down to Subiaco fer a skinny latte.

Euro cars need too much looking after. Take the 4 pot Nissan diesel for exmaple - a Euro engine, lghtweight, high revving - and hasn't lasted, it's getting Nissans a bad name all over Australia. But we can look at thier old 4.2 old tech, push rod, cast iron donk and see clearly that a lot have done over 500,000 kms and still don't burn oil and will still pull a brick schithouse down. It's an ex- Jap truck engine.

I'm afraid that 'stunts' and flash plastic don't cut it here in "Oz".

Oh and before you go off about me possibly being an "Aussie Oik", I'm a Pom by birth and came here when I was 27 years old. I'm now 60. I've worked as a mechanic in both countries.

Bilbo

Hi Sand Man,

That did get a few of them going, that's for sure!!

I'll be hanging on to the Jack for the following reasons -

I love it cause it's got space, grunt, costs bugger all to maintain, it's already scratched, goes anywhere I want to go, it's only done 135,000ks, uses a bit more fuel than I'd like but doesn't require 10 litres of oil every 5000ks like those torquey 4.2s that I keep running into :) Still uses less fuel than they do as well.

There is no real replacement candidate - as I started out saying, I'd consider a Jap diesel but no-one has one I'd like to have. Even the Rodeo engine is the same as all the other Jap stuff.

I haven't had mine valued as a trade, but I'd probably be offered $7000 or less. If I saw my car on a lot for $7000 I'd buy it in a flash :) I won't pay $75000 for a Prado with a second tier engine, that's for sure! and Jeep - yuck - has a beaut engine but nothing else going for it.

I like the idea of an H3, but not overly optimistic that it will be specced where I would like - if it does arrive with the diesel it will be the Rodeo second tier diesel as is used in the European H3, and with the adventure pack will probably be priced in the silly zone for what would be technically comparable to the Rodeo (apart from the adventure pack). It wouldn't be a bad jigger but not that much better than the Jack if at all. For $55000 I'd be very tempted though, but my bet is it will be $70 plus.

So I'll keep the Monterey until something comes along that appeals.:)

Cheers

That's sounding a bit more tasty. Hope it's correct, but the pricing might still be in the silly zone.

The Vortec 3.7 is a lot better than the 3.5 it replaces, but still no real improvement on the Isuzu 3.5l I currently have.

The VM Motori looks excellent, would be a challenge for those mechanics who can't learn new technology though :), especially when it inevitably breaks down after 10,000 ks or so.

I keep telling my customers that they should still be using CP/M because its more reliable than Windows (read easier for me), but they keep insisting on Windows. Oh well, keeps me in work ...... have to keep learning though, dammit.:)

We can tell you have never really been out bush. You better check your prices because it is far cheaper to service a Toyota or Nissan than a merc or vw .
Not to mention parts availability for Toyota's & Nissan's supersedes any eurotrash 100% .Have yet to see a range rover over 350,000 without serious problems.
Or a merc benz m class that does not go back to the dealership regularly because of faults .
Also your statement about taxies is incorrect yes they do 1,000,000 klm but never on the original eng or trans The best i have ever seen a falcon do was 380,000klm on the original eng & then it was a xf & not a e series .
If eurotrash is so good why the hell don't we see more of them ? Like i said about trucks you see mainly USA & jap built trucks on the roads . You do see the occasional eurotrash truck but not many .
If they were as good as you make eurotrash out to be this industry would pick it up straight away.
In fact volvo pushed very hard recently & a lot of company's were attracted to there cheap price now a lot of them are trying to off load them because of regular faults & power issues. Every one will tell you nice to drive but a PITA to keep going.
anyway good night pagero & co. ...... ...TOYOTA -SOLD MORE 4X4,S THAN ALL THE EUROTRASH COMPANYS PUT TOGETHER...666TOY

For a start i have driven a merc benz m class & a r class. & i have been called out to numerous roadside breakdowns involving eurotrash .It was funny how most of the callouts involving eurotrash were on relitively NEW vehicles. Audi volvo vw etc.
Now as for me not driving decent cars ?? hmmm..I probably have driven more cars ,trucks & bikes than you have had hot meals including here in the USA & Canada as well as Saudi Arabia(m/b mad) & the UK.Every thing from a fiat bambino to a Rolls Royce Phantom.
I am a heavy diesel mechanic (fuel injection specallist) & am not against change but against change that create UNRELIABLITY. I know better than most of what works & what does not when it comes to being out bush. By all means buy a vw toerag (oops i ment touareg) & do the Canning i bet you don't make it .Like some joker that went out there in his "unstoppable quality built m/b" 12 months ago & had to be rescued .Yes i know many Toyota's & Nissan's have broken down too but the per capita rate is a lot more in favour that a eurotrash vehicle will die out bush before a Toyota or Nissan. Says a lot for modern high tec eng lol.
Now your comment about the autobahn NEWS FLASH WE LIVE IN AUSTRALIA. & the autobahn is divided into speed areas so your comment does not wash for the Roll-lux .
Yes i agree Toyota's have gone soft & so has Nissan as have most.
That is why my L/C is a old girl Ultra reliable simple & very cheap to maintain.
I am not afraid to poke down a overgrown track or get a little mud on the tyres this would not be the case in a $80,000 vehicle unless you are a complete idiot with more money than sense.
Seen a fool with a r series m/b at Landcruser park a while ago could not get through a wet boggy hole. It was recovered by a TOYOTA & a very low tec Suzuki sierra with nothing more than 10r15 wides on for mods drove straight through after him like it was just gravel. Not to many others got stuck there either (Toyota L/C ,hi lux, Jeeps, Nissan patrols & navaras, Suzuki's ) So if this is a testament to there off road ability ill stick with my TOYOTA L/C thanks
Finally you are incorrect about the Chev v8 the 5.7 was a Oldsmobile eng & yes it was a problem. The 6.2 is a different animal all together designed for small trucks & found to be extremely reliable later upgraded to a 6.5 then turbo,d.
You can buy what you want i don't care but you saying that Eurotrash is superior is only proofing that you are a blind fool. To dismiss Toyota & Nissan as crap is shooting your self in the foot .You go buy your eurotrash vehicle you better keep it a while because there resale value is bloody hopeless (just look at range rovers) The engines are too complicated & unreliable to be used in the bush .
.The aftersales service is woefull
. Just try getting parts like panels & the like
. Service costs twice as much sometimes quadruple the cost of a Toyota or Nissan
. The off-road ability is really not there (although most of it comes down to the driver & from your accounts i doubt you have the ability)
They are usually Fragile
Finally they look like crap (land rover being the exception here)
Like i said before Toyota leads the way with Nissan close behind in sales & with good reason.... THERE RELIABLE (except that horrible little 4 banger) who really cares if there a little down on power there still fast enough to get a speeding ticket.
I would rather use more fuel & have a reliable vehicle than have a complex vehicle that uses less fuel & costs a lot more to maintain .
PLEASE BUY EUROTRASH ITS KEEPING ME WEALTHY ...........666TOY
I

My bmw 5 series engine is petrol and the service life (if you service it) is 600,000km.
It is only a 3.4L and has more torque and KW than a 4.0L v8 LR petrol and even the 4.6L. ( and uses less fuel) The engine was refined over more than a decade and is super reliable. Anyway I am not trying to prove anything by owning this car, I just happen to be a bmw fan. I think the build quality of eurotrash cars is far superior to anything from the US or japan, that includes toyotas. Perhaps euro cars dont last as long here if you give em hell in the bush but they are not designed with our tiny tiny market in mind anyway. We all know if bmw, or other good car brands wanted to, they could kick toyota and all the other jap crap down to hell. But they make cars for their largest buying audience. I cant see a mining company wanting to drive a toyota kluger and therefore an X5 will also not be on the table so dont compare an x5 or other like euro car to a 79 series. Anyway at least 666toy you admit that your trusty crap box is old tech and reliable rather than pretending toyota are keeping up with competition. I suppose one benefit to a your car, you drive into the bush and by the time you are there, you already asleep from boredom. Other drivers are so awake with excitement because their car freakin rocks hard core they cant sleep. I know I have this feeling. I also have a special feeling for you 666toy, because you single handedly will keep toyota in business buying genuine toyota headlight covers for the next 25 years. Good luck with your boredom machine and I am glad VW drivers are making you rich by getting their golfs stuck on the CSR.

F4,
Look i do not pretend Toyota is the be all & end all of motor cars i justly believe there plain but the end game for me & most is there RELIABLE . You say boring ok no prob & to a extent i agree but it just keeps on going unlike most eurotrash 4x4,s. Believe me if bmw thought they could knock Toyota off the winning podium they would try & most likely fail because TOYOTA is a far bigger company world wide than bmw could ever hope for or ever achieve to be .
I have never said that i have rescued a vw golf off the Csr ?? But i have got a merc m class going at popples corner & a co worker has rescued 2 mercs 1 m class & one r class off the Csr. Not to mention roadside pick-ups & repairs to numerous euro vehicles oddly most of them really currant model's .
I am sorry you think my truck is crap (the feeling is reflected) sure it don't have the bells & whistles but against your x5 off road it will cane it hands down both with reliability & 4x4 ability. Oh yes you will be quicker on the road but where buckets like yours come unstuck is in the rough stuff every time (remember the hare & the tortoise) Power means nothing off road it is a matter of how you use it & making sure it gets there . In fact the most capable 4x4 i have seen lately was a ww2 willys jeep with not a hell of a lot done to it made a late model range rover look silly over the weekend that we were there at the park .
By the way i rarely buy genuine parts. In fact i rarely buy parts at all.
When i want excitement i usually take my ninja 900 for a lap or 3 or take my Honda cr500 for a blat .Or when i think its safe to do so take the 9 sec charger for a blast (i really love this car i built it from scratch) & i know it eats mercs & bmw So please dont insult yourself i might just know better than you about that "awake feeling"...............AGE. FAC UT GAUDEAM.......666TOY

I dont have an X5 and they are an onroad only car and I recon they are probably in the kluger ability category. I like bikes too and dont even try to pretend my bm is fast, cause it aint, although it is a big powerful well made, safe family car. I know what fast is and isnt. you seem to some accross as if you have a lot of life experiances. Well, you probably do, but that does not mean the rest of us dont. I have also been to eurpoe and all that crap (i dont think eurpe is crap!), driven lots of cars etc, know what its like to ride r1's or whatever other brand makes fast bikes. The thing is, most of this stuff is opinion anyway. Yours vs others. In off road tracks, if we remove reliability which is probably the most important factor, you have just ability. LC's in my experiance in stock form are really way down there. They are probably strong, I dont know, but I have never seen a stock one really come up well. I reocn in stock form in ability only zuks are good, LR's are mostly all excellent, pajeros (the latest ones) and a few others. The type of 4x4ing you mainly speak about like the CSR is very harsh territory and will take a car to bits in a day. That is very different from say, difficult day trips, rivers, steep hills, inclines, mud and all the rest of the hugely different situations. The other thing is you can always find a situation where "your" 4x4 will do better than a LC or patrol. This makes people feel really good but at the end of it, you need to find a car that does what you want it too, be that look good, go fast, be reliable, go fast, or go fast. So in your case its clear the LC is the one and only, for me and perhaps others it is not suitable, eg I really value fuel economy. I really dont place one car over another BUT if the 2 cars are built for one specific purpose then I suppose you can compare. Anything from bmw is not really fair. One competiton I would love to see tho is a cayenne with factory off road kit vs an LC. My money would be on the porsche. Again, not fair, different price bracket.

Fair comment f4 just for the record i am not a one eyed Toyota man i love Nissans & even jeeps (no not the fancy stuff) but that is just me i live on the outer edge usually of life so like you said its just horses for courses ..for me its a Toyota for you its a bmw. I love makeing something & building cars (aswell as raceing them) but the low tec stuff has allways taken my fancy bloody hell i still use carbs over fuel injection (allbeit lots of them lol) & allways get told i should get efi or do this or that but i still win my fair share of drags with my old tec eng (in the charger that is not the Toyota lol)but it works for me anyway i might see ya on the track one day ...666TOY

This has been an interesting discussion and I am sure with the gentle prodding from pajeroTD another toyota war will be rageing again soon with some poor guy who just spent his life savings on his dream LC, only for pajerotd to rip him to shreds over the apparently worst decision in the world. The main thing is we actually spend time in the scrub enjoying what we have here rather than talking about which million dollar 4x4 is faster! I would love a porsche cayenne for 1 day just to thrash its pistons to pieces in the bush but that aint going to happen, in the mean time I will stick to my humble and cheap (dont tell anyone but japanese) 4x4.

Once again incorrect figures Toyota standard lsd diff from 1986
OK you think a porsch cayenne would have a better chance of doing the ANN BEADEL HYW than a Toyota L/C???lol you serious hahaha Bloody hell i will even place a $10,000 dollar bet on that. You got the porsch ? or could you organise ? i will even race against it out there in a old hj45. just to make it fair of course lmao.
No need to update my argument as i am correct. BIG CUBES , IRON BLOCKS , PUSHRODS, make for a reliable eng out bush not fancy cpu,s & electronics.
At the end of the day i dont care really what they put in 4x4,s these days .
You seem to mistake me for a one eyed Toyota man you could not be further from the truth. I just stick to the facts eurotrash 4x4 do not last here in Australia they are not reliable enough .
I just quote the facts.
TOYOTA IS THE NUMBERONE 4X4 SOLD IN THE WORLD..if a bmw or any eurotrash vehicle was as good they would be there instead of Toyota
TOYOTA HOLD RESALE VALUE. just look how much a range rover drops in value over the years.
PARTS & AFTERSALES SERVICE IS SECOND TO NONE..unlike eurotrash vehicles
where you can wait a month of sundays for just a balljoint.
So please tell me why would i buy a merc benz r class to take out bush ???
To gain a few extra hp that you really cant use ?or use less fuel only to get stung by high service costs & repairs.
Please !!!!! do not insult my intelligence
The only thing you & i are going to agree on is to DISAGREE
Consummatum est...................666TOY