Not happy, bro ?

Perhaps the Govt is trying to get all communities to work towards that sort of solution ?

'Tis a sad day when man has to rely on a daily alcohol intake to go anywhere.

Yes Willem I agree. But who am I to throw stones ? I don't drink.

Ahhh..I was replying to Bill's post

I wasn't disagreeing or having a go. It IS a sad day. Known too many, white and black who suffered that condition.

Agree Willem and I can throw stones Footy :))))

Quite like a drink (of almost anything alcoholic known to Man) but I can go weeks/months without one.

If you can't go a couple of days without alcohol, you HAVE a problem. Don't fool yourself.

Gramps, I used to have an occasional drink but I had to give up one vice and that was the easiest ! I still enjoy the company of drinkers, and am probably sillier than most of em by midnight.

It's a bloody sad day when one ozzy bloke has a go at another for enjoying drink when he goes bush...

Jeff,

I'm not saying you have to be teetotal but you don't NEED one every day :)))) As I said, I'm quite partial to one (or two, or three, or ..... ) myself.

Oh now worries Gramps, was not pointed at your comment anyway. I'm the same as you, sometimes during the silly season your lucky if you have more days sober than you do under the weather, but then I can go weeks (don't know about months! LOL) without one.

Jeff

I was relating to this by Sandman: "You wouldn't even be able to take your own supply in with you, so would need to "dispose" of it.......NOT. Just wouldn't bother going".

I understand where SandMan's comming from though. When I go away, I like to enjoy a drink. If there were two places to go, one where I couldn't drink and one where I could - I'd have to put that as a serious part of the decision. It would also depend on who I was going with, if I was going with a bunch of mates, the drinking would have more of a priority to me going with the missus and kids too.

Each to their own, that's all. I reckon if a bloke wants to have a beer when he goes away, and decides to go somewhere else because he's told he's not allowed to at the place he was going to go to, then fair enough in my books.

I repeat what I said initially and apportion it to you as well...:-)

'Tis a sad day.

"'Tis a sad day."

At least we agree on somthing today.

Just another bit of culture being stripped away from us. The humble can.

"It's lonesome away from your kindred and all,
By the campfire at night where the wild dingos call;
But there's nothing so lonesome, So morbid or drear
Than to stand in the bar of a pub with no beer."

Yerrr..............Agree....lol

Well who are you to say when one can have a drink or not.

I don't drink every day Willem, in fact when working I have a social drink some nights, one week out of three.

What I detest is some Authoritative D!khead telling me when I can and can't.

I will reiterate what I said above, I just wouldn't bother with the hassle of disposing of the current bottles of red wine I MAY have with me.
I would just drive somewhere else where I felt more comfortable.

Now, multiply this by the average number of like minded travellers and you may well find a considerable impact to tourism in some parts of our Country.

Bill

If you had read my comment with due consideration then you would not have to come to the wrong conclusion.

I am not advocating anything. What you may care to do, or not to do, is entirely your business. I personally don't care if you drink yourself into oblivion each day.

Your statement is pretty narrow to my mind, and it basically states that you cannot survive for long without having to take on some form of intoxicating substance to keep your lifecycle operational.

'Hence my comment. 'Tis sad'

Alcohol restrictions have been around for the past 30 years and it has had little impact on tourism, if any.

Cheers

Ah Willem,

I think it is you who is making an assumption mate.

My comment on possible restrictions is entirely in line with existing ones in the Cape area of FNQ as well as one or two other places.
What these restrictions lead to is the total ban on the POSSESSION of alcohol in a certain area. So if one is travelling from point A to point C, but through point B where no alcohol is allowed, then travellers are not "legally" allowed to have in their possession ANY alcohol at all. So a traveller must dispose of their existing "supplies" they have with them. WRONG!. Not this little ducky. Faced with this situation, I would have two choices. Not to travel through point B, or ignore the legalities and leave my couple of bottles of wine, or whatever, covered and secured somewhere in my vehicle. Simple as that.

These laws are introduced with the intention of stopping the aboriginal tribes from getting hold of the Grog, even though the MAJORITY of us otherwise law abiding citizens have no intention of even giving any of them a drink, let alone sell it to them.

That is the point I am making.

As far as the aboriginal people are concerned, their biggest problem of all is that they do not possess an ability for self control, like most other "tribes" in the World, black, white, or otherwise. It doesn't seem to matter whether it is drinking, sex, petrol sniffing, or accosting travellers. They just cannot control themselves, so silly rules are put in place by the Authorities in an attempt to control this minority group by forcing draconian laws on EVERYBODY. No booze. No petrol powered vehicles.

Now that may be a political statement by me, that other people can take however they bloody well like.

Totally agree with you Sand man, the communitys do need some sort of control, as for the policing of tourists this needs to be adressed, as this has considerable impact on the communities and roadhouses and stations which rely on tourisim. I live FNQ and have seen the impact of these restrictions, where once fishermen and tourists used to flock, now there is no body ( good for the enviroment ) and so many people are now suffering fianancially. When these laws where first introduced 2 young Sydney guys who had planed their trip to the cape got busted 2 weeks into the new laws, which they didnt even know about for having their supply and fined in excess of $2000 each, i bet when they got home they wouldnt be telling their mates to go up the cape or even travell to QLD. And for Willem, what if i was to tell him he couldnt do one of his pet likes while he was camping im sure he would have something to say, and would think about where he chose his next camping spot. I would also like to say i am a considerate drinker and is part of my recreation, unlike the natives who are the only race of people on the planet who never brewed, chewed or had any sort of drug in their culture and now abuse evry thing they can get their hands on. An Abbo with no alcahol has so much to offer us, but one of the planet, i need not say more. Col

Typical white fella bigotry by you Bill, and by you Col.

Not Bigotry at all Willem, just plain, hard, factual logic.

And I don't "sway with the breeze" like some people I know.

You definitely don't know what you are talking about!

I guess someone needs to break the cycle, maybe two generation down the track, the children that are not abused due to intervention, wont become abusers themselves. Its has to be worth a try, i feel for the children!! Michael

The cycle of government intervention on an age old culture is what the problem is.

Lack of proper communciation and understanding of the indigenous culture needs to be addressed. This does not happen. Instead todays Australian culture is forced upon the indigenous peoples without proper consultation. It is unlikely that these new measures will work.

On Thursday, June 21, 2007 at 16:53
Truckster (Vic) replied to the question
I fail to see the problem.. they wont help themselves.

THAT,is the problem;;;

TVL

Willem has lived in the NT and knows what he is talking about.

I have worked in SA and NT and had a lot to do with the indigenous community. "They won't help themselves" is rubbish. Those sort of ill-informed stereotypes are part of the problem.

Tjilpi

then you show me anywhere where they are helping themselves. wasnt atsic using money supposed to be for "THE PEOPLE" and wasnt?

Hi Truckster

I can name Wallace Rockhole and Areyonga for starters. Not good to tar everyone with the same brush just because they belong to a particular group. All groups have their share of no-hopers that give the rest a bad name - just look at the reputation of 4WDers in some places.

Cheers
John

TVL

A large percentage of the people in the NT are indigenous. Many of these people work and live very productive lives.

You should not judge everyone by the few. It is unfortunate that there are long grass people who get intoxicated in public view. Those people are the minority but some people stereotype all indigenous people by those few.

In Australia there are a range of indigenous people from University Professors to those unemployed. They include trades people, business people, teachers, police officers, nurses, etc. All people are different no matter what cultural background they are from. To stereotype them by saying "they wont help themselves" is incorrect.

There is a community Jilkminggan. The members of that community previously lived on neighbouring Elsey Station but were forced to move off the station after Wave Hill. They received mining royalties. They saved up that money and purchased Elsey Station. They now work that station and it is a successful business which provides income for the community. If that is not helping yourself I don't know what is. The people on that community are very proud and hard-working.

Every community regardless of cultural background has social problems. How many indigenous people have you worked with? How many indigenous people have you called friends?

Tjilpi

How many indigenous people have you worked with? How many indigenous people have you called friends?
thousands,,,,,,and most my friends ARE BLACK,like me............

TVL

My last message was supposed to be directed at Truckster who stated:

then you show me anywhere where they are helping themselves. wasnt atsic using money supposed to be for "THE PEOPLE" and wasnt?

Tjilpi

So now that a few have criticised this policy as the wrong solution...

...WHAT IS THE SOLUTION???

Don't ask hard questions Off-track. You'll only get the same crap solutions that have been tried for years and failed.

Yes... he's asked this, very pertinent, question a couple of time... and is _still_ waiting for an answer - no surprise there then....

Mike Harding

Hairy, I'm going to take a couple of points to task if I may.
1) Yes grog free. Drug and sniffer free ?
2) WHO feeds the kids ? Not the parents, not the community because look at who funds it. Its time the PARENTS fed their own kids isn't it ?
3) Not quite all, unless its a funded sports or cultural thing. Seems to depend on the whim of the communities as to where they are at a given moment. I've seen outstations treated as taxpayet funded holiday weekenders.
School attendance is all very well, but what good is an education without a job ? I've seen the watered down half education given to some. They simply go back into their communities, won't listen to the elders, and become trouble makers with an attitude.
I didn't see any money for creating sustainable employment/business opportunities. Such expenditure would actually save taxpayer funds in the long term according to some aboriginal costing figures...but hey there's an election coming, we need a quick fix. Well not really, just need to be seen to have a coherent policy to cover our own backsides.

Gday Footloose,
Yep I agree 100%...Well 90%
The bit about creating sustainable employment/business opportunities is a problem....there is no point if the people dont want to work.
I could'nt count how many aboriginal people I have got jobs (including apprenticships) for and just don't turn up after a couple of days. The most common reasons for not turning upwould be......
" No one picked me up", " I slept in", "I changed my mind" or "I dont know". All this lack of education opportunities and employment is rubbish. If your given everything you need in life including grog why would you bother going to work?

Cheers

Hairy, thats a common story I've heard from one end of the country to the other. But this policy, as far as I can see, aims to change the hip pocket cargo cult mentality that we've replaced their self respect with.
But there's still no point in education without being able to earn a living.
Perhaps in the future you'll be able to offer them a job and they will say "yes please" instead of "ok".
Hey, I can dream, can't I ? :))))))))

Hi Footloose

I sort of agree, but you have to start somewhere. Without education you have no future even if there is work. I hope the idea of linking parenting payments to actually doing some parenting (ie: sending Kids to school which BTW is mandatory for ALL Australian parents anyway) gets off the ground.

We employ a number of Aboriginal people at the clinic where I work, and all of them are educated, and a great part of the team.

Cheers
John

John, I have been lucky enough to have met a number of well educated and switched on aboriginal people.
I have also been unlucky to be part of an educational system, briefly in this case, that takes aboriginal children and half educates them until about 16, and then sends them back to their remote communities with half an education and no real skills. It's this well meaning but destructive sort of paternalism that I abhor.
So I'm wary of some of the changes, but excited that something good may come out of it all.

Hairy, thankyou, this has given me an idea and I would like to have somebody participate....... Basically I am willing to give any native austrailian a job as we only ever employ irish backpackers as labourers. I am prepared to give a guy a start whilst documenting it on video to see weather they are up to scratch or the same as these Irish backpackers who as soon as the get dolars in their acount don't turn up the next day because they are too blind.
You have seriously given me an idea and you really do not want to know what we pay these labourers

Footloose, You wouldnt believe how happy Id be if that would happen, and no in not a pessimist, but when you bang your head against a wall contiously for 5 years in education, and people say there is more need for education it doesnt make sense to me. When you finally learn to crack the education thing and get them employment and they dont turn up and people say there are no job opportunities, it again doesnt make sense. Why.... because they have every thing they need....welfare?? The days have gone were you could employ someone with no education. So kids need to go to school! If the parents arent made to send them nothing is going to change. It will take drastic measures and like my parents did when I was bad...take away something you like.......Grog money!

Exfilm, I think I know where your heading, but setting someone up to fail isnt good for any one. If you realy want a blackfella to come and work for you, you need to go out and meet one, or send me a return air ticket, 2 months wages and I reckon one might role up......no promises though..LOL

Cheers

NT still comes under Federal jurisdiction, so they're starting there, and asking the other states to come on board AFAIK.

I would guess that once the reforms are in place then that appears to be the case.
Pending the definition of a common area and road corridor?

Interesting point though none the less.

Chris, not sure who you're directing this to. Replace "lived" with "stayed" and sadly the answer is yes to all the above...and a h^ll of a lot worse.
Monitored...by whom, the stakeholders or the public ?
By posting and discussing these projected policies I'd argue that we are at least becoming more informed within the 4wd community.
Because of the diversity and yet commonality of aboriginal communities across Australia, no one size will fit all. But at least, good or bad in the long run, somethings finally being done.

If you could appreciate not bringing reality into this forum - especially in contradiction to those "knowledgeable members"... it would be appreciated.

Mike Harding

Mike, the question is, which reality ? One based on experiences within how many and how diverse communities over how mqny years and at what level ?
Reality is always subjective :))

>Reality is always subjective :))

Not if you're a child subject to sexual abuse it isn't.

Mike Harding

It's even more subjective in that case, as abuse is perpetrated in many ways by many different people.
Imagine yourself on a jury weighing the evidence against someone accused of this crime. Can you honestly say that you could be disconnected from your emotions ? I'd find it difficult to be objective and I imagine most others would too.
To be objective is the job of those who deal with such incidents. A mate of mine was in the child sexual abuse unit of the police. And they don't keep them there for too long (no matter what the TV says) for that exact reason. They become subjective or disconnected after a while.

Jim - what are you talking about!?

If you're a 9 year old boy being f*** up the b** by someone it doesn't matter a toss what Footlooses opinion of subjective reality on the Explore Oz forum is.... God Almighty....

Mike, you just proved my point.

Ledt me expand that a little further.
Mike, as I understand it you said that the victims of such crimes do not see reality as being subjective.
They must see it as being objective, then ?

So the poor little kid thinks "Oh my goodness, this must happen to everyone." It must be normal ! ???
I think not !

Anyone who'se had the misfortune to be professionally involved in such things knows that every individual case is very subjective. To be objective would mean adopting a "well mate, these things happen" perspective.

I stand by what I said, reality is always subjective.

Understand footy.......
If its the norm well its ok huh..... who is to say any different, Lok at that island of the coast.... Sorry but I can not remember the name as it is thursday and my drinking night. There was even a judge that was having his way with the youngens just to keep the blood alive on the island

Dunno about knee jerk reaction, although the NT Govt who've been sitting on their hands for years might think so.
AFAIK many of these changes have been in the public eye since at least this time last year. Its just that nobody took much notice of the Minister until Howard decided there were votes in it.

I agree with Kumunara on most of this, we will see the final policies leter I guess, as he knows my SWMBO is a Yank and her accounts of how they finally sorted out the majority of the American Indain problems is a pretty good template for OZ to follow. (Stop throwing money at the problem and get the communities to regain some of their self respect). Anyone would think an election was in the air LOL

Footloose

In my work I have been involved with Aboriginals since 1972. This problem just didn't suddenly occur. In one community I worked in there was no such thing as a 13 year old virgin. They had been raped by then and it was often by a close relative. This problem hasn't suddenly surfaced it has been known for years.

I am extremely happy that at last the government is trying to do something about it. That attempt should have started 30 years ago.

Is it going to be a real attempt or is it all show to gain votes.

Despite it being a huge problem the perpetrators are a minority and it is unfair if all indigenous males get stereotyped. There are enough stereotypes that give people negative incorrect attitudes about indigenous people.

Institutional Racism is alive and well in Australia. To solve the problems changes need to me made but not just by indigenous Australians but by all.

Tjilpi

Thanks for your comments Mike

How many of you cynics have been there??? seen what is all about - be realisic - you have completed your 4x4 touristy thing - yep, so you can tell all your Queen St buddys - I've driven big red, been to the cape, done the daintree, spent my 4 weeks a year doing the 'been there done that' scenario - crap - spend some REAL time - not smelling the roses, but experience reality - open your eyes and see what is effecting the real people, black, white, purple or whatever - not, as previously mentioned impressing your Queen St cowboy mates having done the '5000' km in the period of your annual leave - look and see!!

C

Chris, quite a few by the looks of it. Although the average person might "see" a bit of what's happening as they travel, it depends on their perspective as to how they internalize the experience.

I think that you have to look further than "hey there's a problem for us" and try and find out why the problem exists, and what the real effects are on indiginous people. This might come about from studying aboriginality along with spending time with a community, talking to different communities and different elders etc.
Just being there with white predjudices doesn't cut the mustard.
And not being there means zero, as you point out.

One problem is that each community is different, and there's no one size fits all.
So even if you've been to wherethehell and spent time with the locals, you can be clueless about the locals in, say Birdsville.

Personally, I've spent a lot of time and effort trying to understand many aspects of the various problems that exist, and been involved with some efforts to change some small things in particular instances. So I've combined an academic thrust with on the ground practical experiences in situations involving many areas Australia wide. And after 15 years I have to say that although I now see things more clearly, that doesn't necessarily involve solutions. Because at the end of the day I go back to my nice, warm, comfortable white existance.
More consultation is needed.

And there are some very knowledgeable, switched on and increasingly vocal aboriginal people out there. For example, the Cape York Communities.

Things do need to change, many many things. And not all of them are in aboriginal communities.

If nothing else, John Howard has put the spotlight exactly where it should have been 30 years ago.
Whether we,as a nation, will have the fortitude to try and make the necessary changes, is another matter.

Hindsight will be a wonderful thing :))

Footloose

Well said.

Most people see what is happening through their own perspective. They fail to realise that the perception of a person from another culture is completely different. The term for it is ethnocentric.

There is a song "walk a mile in my shoes". By using empathy and understanding Aboriginal cultures you get a cleary picture of the problem. The problem is huge and there is no easy quick solution. The problem has existed since Captain Cook arrived in Sydney and a lot of people have tried to solve it without success. There has however been improvement and if people from all cultures work towards making this a better country for all then eventually the problems will be minimised.

One step in the right direction is to stop stereotyping. Not all whites are the same and not all indigenous people are the same. There is an old saying "fix the problem not the blame". Instead of trying to blame anyone for this problem lets look at the problem and find real solutions.

Tjilpi

>and if people from all cultures work towards making this a better
>country for all then eventually the problems will be minimised.

What a load of meaningless drivel.

What _practical_ and _realistic_ steps would _you_ suggest rather
than soft-soaping us with palliatives?

Mike Harding

Mike

What I have said is fact. If you find it meaningless drivel it may be that you do not have the knowledge base to understand it.

Let us look at some more facts. The standard of health in many communities in Australia is lower than in most third world countries. One community in which I worked the life expectency was 38 years of age. Half that of the wider community. I have mentioned health but is just one of the many problems.

Howard has just all of a sudden come up the idea of all communities being dry. The are already mostly dry. Those that are not have restrictions such as six cans of light beer only. Prohibition does not work and by making communities dry people travel to get alcohol. Often they travel about 100 kms. They then cannot take the alcohol back into the community so they binge drink. They drive back to the community intoxicated and that can result in serious road crashes. They camp at the boundary of the dry area and drink the rest of the alcohol. They then fall asleep on the road. Yes they do get run over. Wouldn't be a more practical solution to have restrictions on the communities such as light beer and and educate people about safe drinking.

Howard has suddenly come up with solutions to problems that have existed for 30+ years and are getting worse. I agree that something needs to be done but as I have said before will it just be for show due to the upcoming election. How much money will he put into it. That has not been mentioned. Will he provide the necessary resources. Up until this time very little has been done and that is not the fault of those trying to work in this area. It is that the agencies that work in this area are understaffed and under-resourced. So more resources and more staff would help.

I will repeat something I have already said on this post. Victims of child sexual abuse frequently grow up to be perpetrators. Paedophiles cannot be rehabilitated. Unless something is done the cycle will continue and the situation in will get worse.

Child sexual abuse is not the sole problem and is one of the results of the socio-economic problems that exist in Aboriginal communities. Other problems include lack of education, employment opportunities, poverty, health, substance abuse, domestic violence, etc, etc, etc.

These are complex problems and need solutions. I hope that those solutions are forthcoming. There was a Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody. That Royal Commision highlighted the social problems that were resulting in the disproportunate numbers of Aboriginal people in custody. Recommendations were made to deal with those problems. The solutions have been there - it is up to Governments to implement them.

Tjilpi

So... your solution is light beer and more money.

Sigh....

Mike Harding

As usual Mike, I see your quick to criticise and ridicule the comments of others and yet you offer no personal view on how "you" with your world wide hands on expertise on these issues would address them, right or wrong!

As usual you contribute nothing substantive and merely enjoy belittling others.

I would suggest that you're certainly not part of the solution and would fit the bill of being "part of the problem"
If you don't like the opinions (right or wrong) of people on this forum why bother visiting let alone passing comment.

Typical of you.

Hey John

I second that.

Cheers Steve.

John, you know that some people only comment to stir and argue. Careful, lest you be asked for the data and its source as once given, it will be ignored anyway.

Mike

From your comments I can see that you are a person who has no knowledge in this area and finds it difficult to understand english.

If you read my post you would have seen my reference to the Royal Commission Into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody. I suggested that following the recommendations of the Royal Commission is one of the solutions. I suggest that you obtain a copy of the recommendations. For info there are hundreds of them and three volumes. If you use a dictionary when you read them it may assist you in understanding them.

And yes some of my suggested solutions could be interpretted as more money. Because it costs more to staff and resource Government Departsments such as the NT Police, the Department of Health and Community Services, etc. People employed by those departments and numerous other government and Aboriginal organisations are trying to solve these problems while you sit back asking what the solutions are.

If you have anything constructive to say that may insist in solving the problems I would like to hear it. All your comments show your ignorance on these issues. I doubt whether you have the knowledge to come up with any real solutions.

Tjilpi

Kumunara

Dont take to much notice, some people just come on here with arguements about anything, just to get reactions. Most of these are people who have to argue on here because they loose all the arguements at home and have to run and hide on the computer.

Dont take to much notice, some people just come on here with arguements about anything, just to get reactions. Most of these are people who have to argue on here because they loose all the arguements at home and have to run and hide on the computer.

Absolute unmitigated male bovine faeces - a forum is for self expression - if you cannot accept discussion in terms that the majority of plebians can understand - keep out of the kitchen.

C

Don't challenge them too much Chriscd - it stresses them - they like their comfort zone :)

Mike Harding

Yes agreed Mike its easy to see your comfort zone purely extends to belittling others to massage your own self inflated ego.

Jiarna

I too work in the NT and I understand the frustration you must suffer and your reasons for being a little cynical. I share them.

One thing that has not been mentioned in this forum is that victims of this type of abuse often grow up to be perpetrators. It is imperative that something be done about it.

Today’s victims will grow up to be tomorrows perpetrators and the cycle will continue.

Paedophiles cannot be rehabilitated.

Tjilpi

Blaze

At the moment the Borroloola Hotel doesn't have a licence to sell alcohol - it is the pub with no beer. The general store does but will not sell anything else but light beer.

It is a different town at the moment.

About moving the problem you are spot on. It makes it worse because people tend to binge drink prior to returning to a dry community. There is also the problems associated with intoxicated persons travelling.

Some communities are tackling the problem by selling light beer in the community and controlling the drinking. This also helps educate people about safe drinking.

Tjilpi

Yeh I knew they had lost their licence, just was using it as a general context. You and have discussed before that getting communities to setup their own outlets etc isn't a bad idea. At least this way the Elders can keep a handle on what’s happening and some Pub owner isn't getting their pockets filled with cash as the only outlet for beverages.... Light beer etc is a great idea and I believe some communities in Arnham Land are as you say already doing this, of course we tread a very slim line before it’s classed as discrimination if you ban any single race, gathering etc from participating in things that others are allowed to do..

I just hope the do gooders don't stuff up what could be a chance for some communities to get their self esteem back before its to late....

Blaze, you have struck a chord there.
"we tread a very slim line before it’s classed as discrimination "

And isn't that what the average Australian feels is unfair and wrong ?

Agree 100% as per reply 3 to this post. As predicted, the mealy mouthed do-gooders had their say which amounted to jack$hit as usual.l

Noel's position is well known. He has set out his response brilliantly, as usual.
It encompasses very little that has not been covered on this topic in this forum, and was intended as support for the Federal Govts announcement.
By the way he's as elequent in person as he is in print.

Well said Hairy. The only abuse you'll cop is from the politically correct do gooders who refuse to accept that they are just as responsible for the current situation as everyone else.

Every other approach has failed MISERABLY. Either they were totally wrong 'solutions' or they were not carried through to finality. Unfortunately it's time for what a lot would call draconian measures. In this particular situation, the end DOES justify the means.

Hairy

I strongly reccommend you read this book "Why warriors lie down and die" by Richard Tudgren. Therein lies an explanation to many of the ills besetting the indigenous peoples of this country.

Whe I arrived in Australia in the 60's I was well aware of the 'Assimilation' policies expounded at the time. I was in agreeance one with that policy. But as one grows older and you delve into these things your opinion may change. Over the years of research and asking questions, my opinion has changed dramatically.

Basically we are forcing a very old culture to accept the culture of modern Australia and to embrace it. It hasn't worked so far and it will not work until fundamental changes are made. Read the book.

Cheers

Gday Willem,
I will get the book and have a read. I have heard about it and I'm sure I wont disagree.
I still think someone needs to write the sexual though "How Warriors stood back up"
Don't you think that every other race in the world progresses and changes and tries to better themselves but when it comes to Aboriginals everyone seems think change is a bad thing and they are happier running around the scrub with a spear?
If I have a party and it gets too loud I'm told to shut it down.
If my neighbours smash up there house and fight all night it isn't their fault it was their visitors.
I think changing a lot of things about aboriginal people is a good thing. If I go out to a community I'm expected to treat certain things and places with respect because of cultural reasons, I think when people come into town situation they need to change there ways and show respect for things we value too.

You don't need to lose your culture to live in town or show respect for others and the assault, rape and paedophilia going on never has been cultural and if they are starting to think it is, they need change.

Cheers

Whoops..bloody spell check...."I still think someone needs to write the sexual" should have read ...."I still think someone needs to write the sequel"

Hmmm ....what do you have on your mind?.....lol

I didnt do it honest!!! ......It was spell check!!! LOL

What fundamental changes are needed then?

Pepole shouldnt be paid cash unless they work. (welfare money shouldnt pay for grog)
If someone trashes their house they are made to pay for damages and not just accept it.
Kids are made to go to school.
People are made to clean up their own houses.
These would be a good start.

There were many Black fella's working hard before sit down money, the problem was there was no proper education put in place for these people.

So in the late 60s the gov of the time decided to pay welfare to ALL Australians, that were unemployed.

As most black fella's weren't educated to a standard they were deemed un employable, therefore they were given welfare, ( sit down money ) now those that were working decided to not work as the gov now gave them MONEY FOR NOTHING.

Before Balanda, Black fella worked in the morning to hunt food, in the heat of the day sit down under a shady tree and make tools for hunting, in the afternoon he went hunting again.

Now they get money to do nothing, No Hunting to do, No tools to make, what does this create boredom.

The question should be asked, did the same gov change the education situation to rectify the problem? the answer is NO nearly 40 years later the education given to these people is disgraceful to say the least, yet there are a lot of you people above that will sh1t on these people from your ivory towers with out a solution.

Well I always believe that If your not part of the solution you are more than likely part of the problem.

Just so as you don't think that I'm a hypocrite, I intend to set up training and employment opportunities for local Bininj people of Kakadu in the very near future.

Richard Trudgen who wrote Why Warriors, has offered his services to both the NT and Fed Gov on many occasions to help put solutions in place, He has told them that he could show them how to spend 1/2 the money given and produce twice the out put, the Gov simply don't believe him.

The Gov give them Money they build them houses, when this money is gone they simply give them more, when a house is trashed they simply build another, As it is not their culture to be materialistic they don't care, Then the Gov help them not to care by not making them accountable for their action's until its to late, then run in and F*CK it up again.

There is alot more that I would like to say but its late and I'm tired.

Cheers Steve.

So in the late 60s the welfare system...
...it is now 2007 and what has any Gov done to educate these people? What has any Gov done to fix health in these communities? What has any Gov done to stop the degradation in these communities?

NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, Don't try to tell me that they have given copious amounts of money to fix the problem, because we all now that that money never goes to where it was supposed to.

Now every one is blaming the current NT Gov, for inaction in these communities, Well, here's a news flash: It was the CLP in Gov that did 4/5 of f*ck all in 23 years of Gov.

Now, that it looks like the Liberals will lose the next election by a country mile they all of a sudden want to fix a problem that has been bleep ed since since the late 60s,

Aboriginal people were living a healthy life style before White fella, In fact their average life span was 80 +, Now it is about 45.

Aboriginal people have been living in poverty since white fella landed in 1788, The abuse of Black fellas by white fella far outweighs the abuse with in the communities now (please note I do not condone what is happening now), It is just conveniently forgotten by most people.

How many people know that it was still legal to shoot or kill a black fella until 1973, only if you had a good excuse though.

This is nothing more than an election stunt, You know the ones (children overboard, weapons of mass destructions etc ).

If you think this is going to work or that the Fed Gov are serious about this you are seriously kidding yourself.

Do I have the solution? Probably not, but I have spent my whole life living and working around Aboriginal people, in their communities and I know what doesn't work.What this Gov is doing will never work.

Cheers Steve.

Gday Steve,
Thanks for the history lesson,
Just to clear things up, I have worked to help aboriginal people for many years. 5 of them being in education. I'm interested to know your background in Aboriginal education because it must be very different in the Top End compared to the Centre.

In the centre, every type of education available to non-indigenous people is also available to indigenous with a couple of bonuses, eg in schools aboriginal kids get money to go to school, don't have to catch the public bus but get a private drop off at home, have their lunch supplied and every effort is made to be understanding to cultural events ( going shooting on a school night and not coming in for a couple of days!). Schools have a special liaison officer and even special classes if requested (indigenous only). Technical type schools or colleges offer free safety boots for indigenous only and quite often food is supplied when needed, they get paid to attend and and again any time off is accepted as cultural. Oh and yeah its free to Indigenous too.
If you feel you don't fit in, cant keep up or just don't like the rules which the average person has to abide buy you can enrol (which is usually done for you) in an aboriginal only training organisation like "The Centre for Appropriate Technology", "Batchelor Institute for Tertiary Education", "Institute for Aboriginal development" or the many other Indigenous only Registered training organisations
teaching Nationally recognised training programs.
Yes I can hear you saying what about the bush mob!
Well, if you are a non-aboriginal kid living out on a station or something you do your junior schooling through home based education or school of the air. Generally You then move on to a boarding school ( paid for buy your parents) for the rest of your education or these days possible over the net. You choose to live that far from a school so that is the options.
If your Indigenous and live on a remote community most have government schools have government buses to travel out to surrounding areas and outstations to pick up the students ( if you can catch them!) If people decide to complete there junior schooling and want to go further they have the option of travelling to a place like "The Centre for Appropriate Technology" at taxpayers expense recieveing abstudy to pay your food and accommodation expenses. You receive free safety equipment free education in an aboriginal environment ( if you turn up ).
Yes leaving the community can be a very stressful time!!!! So don't!
All you need to do is call one of the RTA's and they will send out a Lecturer with all the gear to run a Nationally Recognised Training Program (FREE OF CHARGE) in your own community, and don't worry if you ring ahead with your boot sizes they will even supply them. Again they have to turn up!

Yes like you I could go on for ever. I continue to try and help, but I think standing there saying poor bugger me, look how hard we got it ,is just a bit much to take.
The people paying for all these extras in aboriginal eduction aren't complaining about doing it....Its the do-gooders and blackfellas living off this charity saying they want more...Cone on!
What is so bad with Top End Education?

Cheers

Steve,

"I have spent my whole life living and working around Aboriginal people, in their communities and I know what doesn't work.What this Gov is doing will never work"

Hmmm. It seems a few indigenous spokesmen disagree with you. I'll take their opinion over yours any day.

Hairy my point was that 40 years ago the then Gov said, that these people were uneducated and unemployable.

Today 90+ % of Aboriginal people are still uneducated and unemployable.

Gramps I speak to Aboriginal daily, But I recognize you have a right to an opinion.

Cheers Steve.

Steve, are you and Gramps coming at this from different ends ?
You are looking at the while spectrum of indiginenous problems, whilst Gramps appears to be more concerned with the child abuse end of things ?
I'm probably wrong again :((

I am very concerned about the problem, but I can not see how opening up the permit system and all the other dribble that came out of Mal Brough's mouth this morning, on The Insiders will help.

This is a short term (6 months get us through the election fix ) solution.

Mark my words as I said 40 years of nothing and now this, This is a convenient electoral problem for the soon to be ousted Gov.

Steve.

Steve, I can see your point . Perhaps the new policies will be the start, at least Australia is now talking about it and that has to be good.

Re permit system; AFAIK in some cases permits have been used to keep communities closed not because of the locals but so that some can run their own kingdoms that nobosy can criticize. Hence the child abuse etc . Permit system means no press and that means that nobody knows.

Steve,
You mentioned setting up training and employment opportunities for local Bininj people? Im trying not to be a pessimist but you were the one saying there is a lack of education and also the one wanting to start a new type?
You haven't explained what's wrong with the current system or offered any solutions. I don't think we are lacking in opportunities for aboriginals but enthusiasm.
I'm not trying to criticise nor doubt your ideas, I'm just interested.
What do you intend to do, what qualifications or experience do you have and do you have any backing. A debate like this could be a lot of blowing trumpets, or something realy good could come out of it.
When do you intend doing something? I might have some contacts or ideas that could help if your serious.
Cheers

Hairy, what level of Ed are you involved with, primary, secondary , vocational etc ? I seem to remember reading that your local govt schools were having staffing difficulties ?

Gday Footloose,
Im not currently envolved, I pulled out 12months ago. I needed time to clear my head and go back to my trade and keep in touch with the rest of the world.
I used to work at the Centre for Approriate Technology teaching Applied design and Technology, Welding, the Construction certificates and Cert. 1&2 in IT.
Cheers

Ahh, Ok. Son works for Theiss at the moment doing that sort of stuff...tough gig.
I was involved with ed u ma cation at the levels before they're allowed to solder, never mind weld :)))

Dont want a job do ya! Its still edumacation mista! LOL

Hairy, thanks mate but after 35 years of going bananas, no thanks. Still love the kids, but hate the crap that comes with the job. You and I could write volumes about it, and I'm sure nobody would believe it wasn't fiction.

Hey Hairy

Let me clarify my thoughts, There is nothing wrong with the education system as such, My point is that sit down money was given to these people, because they were deemed uneducated.

Therefore a precedents was in place, there was no need to go to school, because you just got money from the Gov.

I know all about the coon cheque as it was called when I was at school, but this wasn't the case in communities.

For example Waddie where there is 600 kids and only 200 seats in classrooms.

Its funny how people in Darwin at the moment are writing letters to the editor and blaming the Martin Gov, But everyone forgets the CLP did f*ck all for 23 years prior.

A lot of communities have a no school no pool program in place that seems to be working, but this is realy a band aid solution.

As I said I don't have all the answers, but I do know that a knee jerk reaction won't help either.

My other gripe is that this Gov are taking us for fools, by saying we are dropping the permit system because gov officials and police can't go to these areas because they won't give them a permit, so the only solution is to drop the system.

well if they can change the law so as they can drop the permit system why can' they just change the law so as these police and officials can enter with out losing the permit system that protects their sacred sites and alike.

As I said it is an electoral stunt no more no less, If this Gov get back in you watch what doesn't happen after the 6 months is up mark my words.

As for my training and employment program I was intending to self fund it, I may seek funding through a grant if possible.

This will start next March, It will include drive training to obtain an H endorsed licence, advanced drive training, then teach these people the skills to interpret their culture to balanda visitors from here and over seas.

Cheers Steve.

Steve, in some communities the education problem starts at the bottom. The High School may be a long way away. The kids dont want to leave, and the parents dont want them to leave. So from their perspective, what's the point of them sending their kids to school if school is going to require the kids moving when they get to 12 or so ?
They cant see anything coming from this sort of education. The kids drop out of high school and come back as strangers with time on their hands and no respect for the elders.
I'm drawing on one particular community that I know. Obviously this may not be a universal trait, but it does show how the one size fits all approach just can't work.
This community has more comoputers than kids at school on many days. Mind you, they all show up on an excursion dayas its a fully taxpayer funded trip away !