Trip Leader Training or Guide

Submitted: Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 20:49
ThreadID: 50617 Views:4174 Replies:12 FollowUps:17
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The recent forum thread by Carlin (which came to a pretty constructive ending - phew) caused me to ponder a couple of incidents with 4WD clubs on club trips.

These clubs will remain nameless, but their indiscretions, whilst a lot less concerning, do cause me to wonder if any of the 4WD associations - be it the National, or one or more of the State associations have required training for Trip Leaders, or perhaps a guide for Trip Leaders to at least read.

The core issues I noticed in these incidents in the Simpson were:

* lack of a tail-end charlie and lack of effective communication across a large convoy (20+ vehicle), leaving stragglers in difficulty
* lack of planning in failing to take notice of the road conditions report which would have told them of a major event that they tried to travel through (they claimed to have known about it but chanced their hand)
* failure to keep within the 40km speed limit.

The impact of each of these indiscretions was pretty low, but they didn't reflect well on the clubs or 4WD clubs in general. A guide, code (that was specific enough on this subject) or training could address these.

Is there such a guide? Is there any training available? Do the associations make it compulsory like it is compulsory to have a qualified trainer for certain activities, etc. (as I understand it)?
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Reply By: Member - Crazy Dog (QLD) - Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 20:52

Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 20:52
Yeh good one Andrew - Well done. As I said in my parting post I think we ALL have learnt something from Carlin's experience....

Grrr!!!
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Reply By: Middle Jeff - Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 21:11

Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 21:11
Hi Andrew

Simple answer to all your questions is no. Not much you could do for big trips as their is as many, if not more private groups doing the same thing, so how do you regulate some and not others. Personally I think it should be part of a licensing system ( this is going to get me flogged ). I believe that 4wds need to have their own license and I would happily line up to do it, only a small inconvenience but the benefits would be huge.

Have fun

Craig
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Follow Up By: Andrew from Vivid Adventures - Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 21:43

Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 21:43
Thanks Craig,

Well in both these instances, they were clubs. Sure, there are private groups, including some big ones, but 4WD clubs should be promoting responsible 4WDing - if the clubs offer it, you tend to find that the privateers have leaders who have club involvement anyways, even if they are not running a club event. That said, my experience is that the ratio would be highly skewed to 4wd clubs.

Politically, I can't see a licensing system for 4WDs that has anything relating to trip leaders ever getting traction - there are a hell of a lot of 4WDs in use in agriculture, mining, government administration, health, law enforcement ... you name it. Sure, they might need 4WDing skills - I can see a case for that, but compliance with a code of practice for trip leading... I can't see it ever getting legs.
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Follow Up By: Sand Man (SA) - Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 22:01

Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 22:01
Craig,

I fail to see where your logic is going to improve anything.

A 4WD licence?

There is a marked difference between a convoy of 10 vehicles crossing the Simpson and a convoy of 2 vehicles travelling from Marree to Birdsville to Innamincka and back to Marree. Depending on weather conditions, the shorter, "less risky" trip could prove more difficult than the desert trek.

It gets down to individual members of any convoy to determine if they are going to be "led" anywhere by an experienced "leader", or by a person with little or no experience whatsoever.
Even an experienced "leader" may take higher risks than what is regarded as "sensible" or "responsible", especially if they are trying to meet a travelling deadline.

I can only guess that each Club would have their own internal qualification procedure before a member is regarded as suitable for leading a sizable convoy. This would not only include the basic driving skills, but also knowledge of, or preparation for, the area to be traversed.

It gets down to the "reputation" built up over a period of time by members within a Club, or by a professional trip Leader working for a Company.

Thats my view anyway.
Bill


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Follow Up By: Middle Jeff - Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 22:05

Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 22:05
Hi Andrew

I know the licensing thing will never happen, for all the reasons you wrote and a heap more that I can think off.

I do a lot of trips with my club and lead about ten a year, but they would be weekend or at the longest four days, in these trips I lead it like a tour and sort out where each person should be and who does what, I take on that responsibility. On bigger trips that I have done, we work as a team and it is a joint effort and we work together. I have only done one big trip where I was a trip leader and ran it like that and I hated it and will never do it again. In the end I guess it is like anything, different people will do different things, other wise we would not have road rules and the need for police to enforce them and how boring it would be if everybody was perfect like us we would have no one to complain about and we would look average.

Have fun

Craig
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Reply By: Member - shane (SA) - Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 21:16

Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 21:16
this is one of the reasons i have not joined a club, to much bulls#$t.
from my view, the things you commented on, weather you have a team leader or not. you must take responsibility for your own actions. i can't believe that only one person new of the road conditions, and some one is always tail-end charlie. there has to be a last if more than two. as for speed, that's up to each and every one of us to know the speed limit where we travel.
this is in no way a personal attack on you, but with 20-30 4x4 a day across the Simpson on a good day i don't see it as life threatening, just someone having a go with like minded people looking for some fun, thats made a few mistakes. i think we have all been there.
cheers, Shane.
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Follow Up By: Andrew from Vivid Adventures - Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 21:48

Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 21:48
each to their own as to joining clubs. I'm not a club member either ;-)
But as with commercial activities, likewise with organised activities like clubs - there is a duty of care, and I was intrigued to know whether the 4WD associations were active in helping club trip leaders do it well.
There is the Adventure Activity Standards in Victoria which 4WD Vic has been involved in, but as to whether they do or encourage training - that is my question. Do clubs even know this stuff exists?
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Follow Up By: Member - shane (SA) - Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 22:01

Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 22:01
i dont think they do, the three where i have been to meetings to ( to see if they had something to offer me as a member) seem to be making it up as it goes.
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Reply By: mike w (WA) - Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 21:18

Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 21:18
As far as WA 4wd association goes, and I am happy to stand corrected, whilst I was trip co-coordinator of my club, there was supposed to have been trip co-ordinator/ leading training that was to be attended and run by the WA association. It never happened in the 12 months I was in the role, and wasnt aware of it happening after.

Many clubs have guidelines for trips and trip leaders, as you are probably aware, and I will admit that my club are diligent in adhering to them.

AnswerID: 266904

Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 21:54

Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 21:54
Hi Andrew,
I run a lot of private trips, 4wdclub trips and have been on a number of commercial tagalongs. I've never been a commercial operator, I've had a a fair bit to do with clubs, but lately have been doing my own thing. This is what I've noted:

#1 Specific Trip Leaders Courses are (or were) available through SAAFWDC. I did a SAAFWDC accredited "Trip Leaders Course" in 2001, and have the certificate at home. This training is not "required" but is available for the benefit of members, and to encourage members to put their hand up to run trips. Its up to the club's Trips Coordinator to decide whether someone is capable of running a particular trip. I was a trips coordinator of a large club some years back, and my preference was to encourage an appenticeship system where new trip leaders would be backed up by an experienced leader. But I would expect that this would be the exception rather than the rule.

4wdclubs, like other volunteer organisations can suffer from variability in their management, and how their constitution, by-laws etc are enforced.

#2 Its easy to assume that a large group in the desert must belong to a 4wd club. I'm pretty nosey and usually stop for a chat with the leader of oncoming groups. The trend I've noticed is that commercial 4wd tagalong tours are willing to take more vehicles than most clubs, and I guess this is for commercial reasons.

The three biggest groups I've come across have been commercial. We counted 21 vehicles in one group along the QAA Line and up the Hay in August 2006. Another commercial group in 2003 had 15 vehicles spread across about 100km in the Simpson. Their "tail-end Charlie" had a rear wheel bearing failure (rusty from no maintenance) so was left behind. Other participants were on a mission to pick up bearings in Birdsville, but we provided them with a set of LandCruiser bearings to save the trouble. Biggest 4wdclub trip I've encountered has been 12 vehicles - our club sets a limit of 10 vehicles, but I've noted some clubs are willing to run bigger groups than 10.

#3 Convoy Procedure. 4wd clubs always use a tail end charlie, but its a bit variable as to how well they know the importance of their job. Commercial groups that are smaller than say 8-10 vehicles usually don't have a 2nd support vehicle, so its up to the leader to teach someone to be TEC. One paid desert trip I went on, had a TEC who didn't have a clue, and when we realised that gates weren't being shut, we dropped ourselves back there. Another paid trip I went on had 16 vehicles in the group, but was superbly organised - having 3 lead vehicles that rotated positions as leader, TEC and one in the middle. No problems at al with that one.

Next question: what training is available for Commercial Operators?
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Follow Up By: Blaze - Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 23:45

Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 23:45
Hi Phill, Totally agree with all you have written and to add to it, personally I prefer groups of about 5 vehicles as a maximum on most trips I go on. One thing I believe these larger groups should try to put into practise is what we came across last year. We had a group camped near us with 12 vehicles belonging to the same club.
They had 2 leaders and 2 TEC organised for each day, one group would head out and after they had all made their way out about 15minutes later the second group headed out. This made each group easier to keep an eye/ear on and also easier for oncoming vehicles.
The leading vehicle in group 2's job was to try and keep a good distance between the groups and the groups worked independant when it came to gates etc, each day members changed from which group they were in.

By what we seen of this setup it worked really well with a large group. I guess you could compare it to the way EO Gatherings are run with eg: Warraweena, 30 or so members splitting up into smaller groups.
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Reply By: Wayne (NSW) - Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 21:55

Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 21:55
Andrew,

It is not easy being a trip leader, and being a good tail end charlie is even harder sometimes.

Putting a Trip leader Course together would not be hard to do, but getting drivers to attend would be a different story.

Clubs might be able to do something but a group of mates on a trip would be a lot harder.

Also who would police the qualifications of the person leading the trip?

A good idea but I don't think it would work.

Wayne



AnswerID: 266911

Follow Up By: Andrew from Vivid Adventures - Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 22:22

Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 22:22
G'day Wayne,

Welcome back. Where ya been - I haven't bumped into you since Marla some time ago.

Vic was doing some training along these lines was he not? I thnk Dave and Rose Wilson also run similar. There is some formal competency (I think I got it from ParksVic) that I have filed away somewhere that I will go digging for.

Anyways, my thinking was that even though they might not come to a training course, a structured code of practice helps remind them of a few more of their responsibilities, and gives a framework in which departures can be rapped over the knuckles.

There probably is already too much regulation, but the associations should be promoting responsible 4wding through the clubs, and compliance with a code of practice would help. I know ParksVic is making compliance mandatory (not necessarily training) for commercial operators.
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Reply By: Crackles - Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 22:15

Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 22:15
Yes Andrew there is trip leader training available for clubs in Victoria & several clubs make the course mandatory before an individual can lead a run. As helpful as it may be for some please lets not talk of making it compulsory for all clubs as it really does take alot of the fun out of going on trips. I know a couple of these clubs struggle to get trips off the ground as they don't have suitably trained personal despite having over 200 members, many experienced just not qualified.
Trained or not, club members, tour opperators or just Joe public. People will always chance their hand with track conditions or drive too fast stretching out a big convoy trying to meet their holiday schedule.
There is another training course one can take. It's called the Scouts. Leadership, navigation, group skills, it covers the lot :-)
Cheers Craig............
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Follow Up By: Andrew from Vivid Adventures - Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 22:24

Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 22:24
Yeah - well I'm not big on mandatory either, even though I mentioned making it compulsory. I was just wondering if the training and/or guides were accessible, promoted and used by the clubs.
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Reply By: RustyHelen - Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 22:40

Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 22:40
Hi all
I haven't read all the threads in detail but there is a constant through them as to Trip Leader training. It is topical in my mind as I have just completed it in our Club, The Pajero Club of Victoria.
Both this Club and 4WD Victoria put out guidelines and conduct Trip Leader training. I understand that the 4WD Association guidelines were developed from the Pajero Club and with input from a number of Clubs in the State.
You cannot lead a trip without completing the training. It certainly includes Planning, Conducting, Advertising, What If's and both Convoy Procedures and 4WD Code of Ethics.
At the end of the day though it is up to individuals.
So join ther Pajero Club of Victoria and enjoy the benefits of doing Trip Leader training....
Rusty
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Follow Up By: Andrew from Vivid Adventures - Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 22:41

Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 22:41
nice one Rusty.
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 23:36

Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 23:36
Rusty is largely correct, 4wd Vic has been very proactive in developing a trip leaders program for Victorian Clubs and the notes, procedures etc used came originally from the Toyota Landcruiser Club (Vic) who have been running their own trip leaders program for many years.

One part of the issue is the size of convoys, our club generally limits convoys to a maximum of 8 vehicles and if a trip has more than 8 vehicles they are split into two convoys and travel separately so as to minimise any adverse impact on other users.

The club also covers quite extensively convoy and radio procedures as part of its driver awareness program as its recognized that an incoherent convoy is a nightmare for all track users.

A professional tag along group probably has the most difficulties as the relative experience and training of the individuals participating will vary greatly and certainly make hard work of it for leaders.
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Reply By: Member - Kim M (VIC) - Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 23:40

Tuesday, Oct 16, 2007 at 23:40
Fair dinkum

The recent response to the post I saw was a complete load of hysteria over a minor dust up in a camp site. Happens all the time, get over it.

Talk about a carry on....!

Kim
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Follow Up By: Andrew from Vivid Adventures - Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 07:37

Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 07:37
Each to their own - I guess you're not a club member either Kim ;-)
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Reply By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 08:19

Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 08:19
I am presuming that you are not inferring that commercial operators make better trip leaders then people who belong to a club. I have seen more commercial operators do things that I was not impressed with then I have seen with club trips.

I would suggest that (besides duty of care) there are two golden rules;

1. Do unto others....

and

2. Slow down !

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Follow Up By: Andrew from Vivid Adventures - Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 09:27

Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 09:27
Of course they are better trip leaders ;-)

I have never seen a commercial operator do things I was not impressed with - LOL.

Just to clarify, the post wasn't a comparison at all... I suspect there are far less commercial tagalongs (in my experience anyway) than there are club trips, and my experience is that commercial tagalong operators are by and large, pretty professional. Other operators, esp Backpackers Inc., are not so...
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Reply By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 08:36

Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 08:36
Have been on only a few 4wd club trips, and a few trips with friends.

Have been tail end charlie (TEC) a couple of times.

Find communications while TEC a bit tricky, since people can become spread out.

UHF has problems getting back to the leader due to distance, but I still have my old 27meg sideband, and find that useful if the leader has one too. Bit more range than the UHF for a group of over 4 or 5 vehicles.

Now repeaters are more common, I suppose the problem may be solved?

What do you do Andrew?
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Follow Up By: Andrew from Vivid Adventures - Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 09:40

Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 09:40
I don't take large groups for one thing, so convoy of 6 vehicles has been the largest tagalong I have run.

We are the photographers for the Simpson Desert Bike Challenge, which is a pretty big undertaking, and we are neither leader nor TEC, but we do end up helping out both convoys - front and rear and have to communicate our activities as we move through the cyclists.

I am surprised how frequently HF is a reasonable backup for UHF - I had always thought that it was no good at shortish distances (50-80km), but usually I can find a VKS channel that works so we use both and do radio checks to keep in touch on both regularly. It does require a TEC with HF. Stopping at the top of a hill, and relaying through the convoy also helps, but requires a little bit of training for how to run a relay. Rarely do I find repeaters much help, but perhaps I am not paying enough attention to where they could be used.

4 or 5 vehicles will usually be less than 5 km apart, and UHF has always worked for me for tagalongs. The importance of keeping in touch is that it only takes one problem and the whole group gets too spread out... it is important for the leader to stop on a high point with reception whilst rear end issues are sorted out or at least assessed and that agreement is reached on where and when to meet up again.

For the Challenge, the front convoy also needs to communicate to the rear convoy and this could be 40+km at it's worst. That said, speeds are low - rear convoy is doing no more than 12.5km/h behind the bikes, so the convoys generally are stopped in the swale for long periods, so even though you might have 15 cars in the rear convoy, they are easy to manage, and oncoming vehicles - if it happens, can be let through quite easily. TEC needs to pick up the signs and things, and communicate this to the rear convoy leader so the rear convoy is always nice an tight.
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Follow Up By: Member - Oldplodder (QLD) - Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 16:31

Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 16:31
Thanks Andrew,

Good points.
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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 10:52

Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 10:52
Hi Andrew,

So far we've established that the 4wd club scene is the only avenue for training as trip leaders - Sounds like it might be the opposite to what you were expecting?

If you want to learn a bit more about what goes on in clubs in SA, can I suggest you have a browse thu the SAAFWDC website.
Of particular note is the Natural Resources Advisory Unit (NRAU) and the huge amount of work thats been done to keep tracks open, and to maintain pastoral access in SA. NRAU page

Cheers
Phil
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Follow Up By: Andrew from Vivid Adventures - Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 11:38

Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 11:38
Hi Phil,

I knew there was some training available with connection to 4wd association in Vic. I've not seen evidence of it actively promoted and used elsewhere.

I have an acquaintance who is on the SA NRAU and am well aware of what they set out to do. I had looked at the SAAFWDC site and didn't see any trip leader training mentioned there, but they don't provide much detail on driver training page.

My experience was that some club trip leaders are neglecting the basics ;-) Both of these clubs were from Eastern States.

There are a lot of clubs doing good things - don't get me wrong - as I think through the number of valuable club "community" contributions and well run clubs, there are far more than can be mentioned, but some clubs and probably only "some club activities" are going off half-cocked.

It is not a criticism of clubs or the associations, nor should anyone get the impression I am tarring them all with the same brush.
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 20:49

Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 20:49
Andrew,

Yep - not a lot gets promoted or advertised. The clubs provide these courses for free, for the benefit of the members and the club. I guess as a volunteer club trainer, I for one get annoyed at people who join a club purely to get free training.
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Follow Up By: Andrew from Vivid Adventures - Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 21:19

Wednesday, Oct 17, 2007 at 21:19
Hi Phil,

For some obscure reason I still can't member message... perhaps you could drop me an email?

Cheers
Andrew.
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