Refitting tyres to alloy rims in the bush - words of caution

Submitted: Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 16:12
ThreadID: 60031 Views:7847 Replies:13 FollowUps:18
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The Story.

Four stone punctures in the Pilbara in three tyres in a 13 day trip.
1. One destroyed BFG from running flat before I realised it was flat.


2. One Pirelli Scorpion with a thumb sized shale rock through the tread
3. One BFG with two holes.

HJ61 1989 Landcruiser running 31x10.5x15

I'm not interested in any debates about tyres or pressures, this is a post about what can happen even when you leave home confident you are well prepared, having problems and coming across unexpected obstacles.

I carried one full spare, and one bare tyre.
After destroying Tyre 1, (Road from Newman to Nullagine) I needed to fit the bare tyre. Using my R&R Beadbreaker I was able to get one half of the destroyed tyre off, but due to the 8.5"wide alloy rims and the small ring of rubber to push on, I couldn't get the rest of the tyre off. Fortunately the happy Chamberlain tractor mob were camped in the same truck bay and I borrowed a large sliding hammer. My Supercheap compressor also gave up, but I was saved by the wide load truckies in the same truck bay.

Refitting the bare tyre was not easy. The tyre was well used, so a little softer than a new tyre and eventually slipped over. I'd not brought a rubber hammer, so had to lever it back on with the R&R and tyre levers, and plenty of slippery stuff.

I picked up a second bare spare tyre in Karratha, but it fell off the trailer on the way to Millstream. I also bought a better quality compressor in Karratha.

Tyre 2 with the thumb sized hole. (On creek crossing going in to Wittenoon Gorge) Three plugs held for three days, then popped out and I could never get a seal again. The rubber glue supplied with the plug kit was too small to apply to many plugs, so maybe I was a bit stingy with it initially. The R&R kit has a much larger and apparently better blue glue - "Rema tip top Special Cement BL"

Tyre 3 Hole 1on Millstream to Auski Road probably as I was off the main cleared track in the road seeking some smoother surface. One plug held for a few days

Tyre 3 Hole 2 probably happened on the same creek crossing as above. These three were on the same day. We got good at plugging by then!!

Eventually all the plugs started working out, in particular when running on bitumen. No 15" tyres were available in Paraburdoo so we pressed on to the NW Coastal Highway instead of returning 80kms to Tom Price.

I planned to use the tubeless repair patch supplied in the R&R kit, but when I read the instructions it needed to be left for 24 to 48 hours to set properly. So we plugged again and got moving. In the 110km to Nanutarra Road house we stopped twelve times and replaced plugs 4 times. This was a bad experience.

I was running out of plugs, had run out of tyres, and was a long walk from anywhere. I still had VKS 737 up my sleeve, or setting up camp for the family and me hitching into the road house as fall back options.

We arrived at the road house early afternoon and I ordered two new tyres to be freighted up with Toll overnight. They won't accept payment over the phone, you have to have the goods delivered to their depot and paid for unless you have an account. They don't set up accounts for casual users. Pack and Send 'may' have been able to help, but I was fortunate to have buddies in Perth to help me out. I owe them big time.

Tyres arrived and I set about fitting these $290 investments, plus freight to the spun aluminium 8.5" rims with only levers and no rubber hammer. This was tough going. I bent the soft rims, and have discovered today I have ruined one of the tyres with the tyre lever by damaging the bead as I was levering it over the rim. :-(

This could happen to anyone on this forum folks, I'm no one special neither completely lacking competence, nor completely expert.

Inflating the tyres across the wide flat part of the rim caused a huge bang that brought all and sundry to see how many pieces of body were splattered on the walls. I tell you I was pretty nervous doing the second one which went off even bigger bang. Yes I used plenty of lubrication.

I'm trying to think of some tips to pass on, but can't find too many.
Buy good gear.
Don't head to the Pilbara with tyres on less than 50%.
Tyre pressures: who knows. Plenty of you will say to drop the pressures. Some of these punctures happened with 45psi, some with 35psi.

Tyre plugs are great, to a point. They got us out of trouble, but then into more. They are not so great with stone holes, probably much better for screw and nail holes. Part of the leakage problems around the plug was the ragged penetration of the stone, like a star chip in a windscreen, hard to find the end of them.

So do I get rid of my nice fat rims and tyres, or to I buy new tyres all round and make sure I have more spares on rims? FWIW, I'll be doing the latter so I don't have to change bare tyres on the road. With wide alloys it's just too risky. If someone nicked my rims, I'd probably get steel replacements.

All the punctures were on the rear tyres. The trailer carried 600 litres of Canola oil which fuelled our trip, and was running skinny light truck tyres on 13" rims that are 40 years old from my EH Holden.

Apart from all of this, we had a great trip out east of Nullagine to the Oakover and Carawine Gorge, Karratha, Millstream, Karijini. We planned to head south vi Mt Augustus but common sense prevailed and we took the bitumen south. It'll be a long long time before I get my missus out trekking again; bad tyre problems made for bad memories.

An on board tyre pressure monitoring kit would be a real good thing too!

Enjoy your travels folks. :-)

Tim













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Reply By: Willem - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 16:31

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 16:31
Hahahahahahaha.....It all a learning curve.

Good gear
Good rims
Good tyres
Good compressor
Diswashing detergent
The right tools

After much grief with them fat tyres and rims I have gone back to splits and crossplies. One puncture in a seriously off road situation in 35,000km of mainly gravel roads, tracks and cross country.


Cheers
AnswerID: 316550

Follow Up By: Member - G N (VIC) - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 18:36

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 18:36
I agree with your choise Willem, did the same years ago when we did lots of shooting off road and went from 2 -3 puncture per week to 2-3 per year, but if the tar got a touch wet it just only luck that would get you around, had the old bus side ways up the bitchi a few times.
I dont think i want to test my luck again.
GN
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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 22:37

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 22:37
Willem, What tyre pressures would you be setting in the area that Tim is talking about?? He is quoting 35psi and 45psi!! Is 35psi still too high?? Michael
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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 22:38

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 22:38
Willem, What tyre pressures would you be setting in the area that Tim is talking about?? He is quoting 35psi and 45psi!! Is 35psi still too high?? Michael
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Follow Up By: Willem - Wednesday, Jul 23, 2008 at 08:18

Wednesday, Jul 23, 2008 at 08:18
Michael

I would be running 24 to 26psi cold in those wheels.

If I were there myself I would drop my crossplies down to 22 cold. There could be as much as a 10psi variance in these tyres depending on the outside temperature

There are lots of 'for and against' re tyre pressures but 35psi is generally acceptable for bitumen running.

Driving style can also account for tyre problems

Another reason for going back to splits is that they are much easier to repair in the bush

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Tim HJ61 (WA) - Wednesday, Jul 23, 2008 at 10:11

Wednesday, Jul 23, 2008 at 10:11
The advice I got from the tyre fitter who supplied my second hand BF Goodrichs was to run 40 psi. I was carrying a full load including trailer and travelling on the bitumen from Perth to Newman so I added a few psi to 45psi for this part of the trip. I don't think this was a bad thing to do.

On day two late in the afternoon we left Newman and hit the dirt road to Nullagine. No I did not drop my pressure. Call it an error of judgement, stupidity or whatever you like but I had stopped prior to the first flat to check the temperatures of the tyres. They were all at normal temperature. Even when the first tyre went flat and exploded, the matching tyre on the axle was not hot. I lost the tyre because it ran flat after a stone piercing, not because the pressures were too high.

There are two issues here. One is the theory that softer tyres mold around stones, the other is the issue of temperature and tyre life. Running less pressure bagged the tyres out too much for my liking with the load I had. That's why I like Phil's helpful observations about tyre rating.

I accept the argument about softer tyres and have always dropped pressures to 30 in the past. This time I didn't. The Nullagine road was in fact not too bad, a few corrugations but not as rough as I had thought it would have been. It was also late in the day and we had been on bitumen all day and we were trying to get to a campsite for the night. I picked up a stone - bad luck, the moons were aligned against me.

Tim
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FollowupID: 582975

Follow Up By: Willem - Wednesday, Jul 23, 2008 at 10:42

Wednesday, Jul 23, 2008 at 10:42
Tim

Ahhhhh .... Phil is a luminary when it comes to tyres and has some sound advice, as usual. Maybe he should give up his day job and open a tyre place and service centre....LOL

Yeah...there isn't a hard and fast rule with presures and tyre life. It is what suits you and when the moons align at opposite poles you are cactus whichever way you look at it.

In 06 the Nullagine Road presented no problems re tyres but a speeding cocky in his LC Ute threw up a stone the size of my fist and scared the princess out of her wits. Spent the rest of the holiday looking around the splintered glass at the scenery.

But this is not what you posted about. We had a young fella on our last trip who had a few punctures too many and he was given some lessons in removing the tyres from steel rims. I watched on with glee seeing him and his cohorts sweat to get the tyres off and on the rim. When I was running tubeless on alloys I had 10 plugs in a tyre once just to get me home and then had to throw the tyre away. Life for me is easier now having reverted back to split rims. Yeah, it's old technology but then I am a person of yesteryear too....lol

Cheers

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Follow Up By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Wednesday, Jul 23, 2008 at 19:22

Wednesday, Jul 23, 2008 at 19:22
Willem,

You have got me thinking, i was about to dump my 16 x 5.5 chrome inside splits for some more Patrol wheels for my trailer and set them up tubeless. The current tyres have done about 40,000ks (Dunlop SP Road Grippers) and tyres and tubes and wheels were all new in 1999.... never been apart or punctured so im thinking that being 9 years old, i may be pushing my luck if i keep them any longer.. May be worth just buying the same tyres and tubes and buy a patch kit!!!!! In your experience, what is the ratio for punctures in trailers compared to vehicles on any one trip??
Michael
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FollowupID: 583062

Follow Up By: Willem - Wednesday, Jul 23, 2008 at 21:45

Wednesday, Jul 23, 2008 at 21:45
Michael

I would not have a clue

When I was running Eldorados on the trailer I got numerous punctures in the Little Sandy Desert. Probably 50/50 to what I got on the truck. But trailers need to cut corners in the bush and go over bad stuff you tend to miss with the truck. I like to run the same type of tyres on the trailer as on the truck so if there is a need I can interchange the wheels.


Cheers
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Reply By: Steve63 - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 17:13

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 17:13
It is stories like these that make me think splits are a good idea. We had 8 punctures last trip, most of which were done at camp. Having changed a tyre on a safetry rim before, it was much easier and quicker. Especially after all the practice!

Steve
AnswerID: 316560

Reply By: Outbacktourer - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 17:30

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 17:30
Thanks for sharing Tim, you told it like it was.

For me the most important thing is new or near new tyres on the rear when embarking on a "rough" trip.

OT
AnswerID: 316567

Reply By: Stephen M (NSW) - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 17:44

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 17:44
These are the type of stories I love to hear when sitting around a fire. Pain in the rear when it happens to you but would be a good laugh I reckon especially when the wife would add the few extra words that I'm sure you have not put in your post LOL. Glad to hear you still had a great trip and made it home safely. I reckon those tyre monitors would be worth every cent for trips like that. All the best and hope the wife has a short memory for your next planned trip. Regards Steve M
AnswerID: 316575

Reply By: George_M - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 17:51

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 17:51
Looking back on this trip, Tim, you'll probably describe it as "character building".

That probably not what you were thinking at the time! lolol

George

PS Are you still married?
Come any closer and I'll rip your throat out!

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AnswerID: 316577

Follow Up By: Tim HJ61 (WA) - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 18:52

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 18:52
Character building indeed ......

Yep, still married. Will probably have to leave her at home next time tho!

Tim
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Reply By: Bonz (Vic) - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 18:05

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 18:05
We're not related are we? Mind you your comment dont go on under 50% tyres is a very wise one.
.
Time is an illusion produced by the passage of history
.

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AnswerID: 316582

Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 18:19

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 18:19
Hehehe Thanks for sharing that with us Tim - I could have told almost exact same story 10 years ago when I also had a HJ61 with half worn 31x10.5R15 tyres. I destroyed one tyre within 20km of leaving the bitumen, and the following day stuffed another two.

You'll never get strong tyres for 15 inch rims. The ones you are running are 6-ply rating, and have a very low load index of 109, for a biggish vehicle. Thats why all your problems were with rear tyres.

Best solution I found was to move up to 16x7 tubeless rims, and fit some 10 ply LT tyres - either 235/85R16 or 265/75R16 - your load index will then be a healthy 120 or 122. I'd leave the pressures etc to you...

Plugs is another story. Most people don't appreciate the learning curve. We have used plugs wherever possible over the past 10 years. Rocks thru treads don't go well with plugs - like you say, the hole is often a bit big and ragged. I've plugged or watched plugged probably 100 tyres - we always use glue, and usually with "Tech" brand plugs and the Tech brand glue. If you're using Rema glue, the blue special cement works well with many of the other plugs you'll buy off the shelf. Can buy the Rema glue in the big tin, with brush. I get it at Motor Traders in Adelaide.

Been pretty rare to have a plug work its way out - occasionally they will develop a pinhole airleak and need replugging, and sometimes they just don't seal the hole , so get a patch from the inside, but I'd guess that 80+% of tubeless punctures are fixed well with plugs.
AnswerID: 316587

Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Yalgoo) - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 18:50

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 18:50
having destroyed a few 15 inchers just on the road as well - your spot on, they especially dont like over inflation as the tread pops out by impact fractures to the tread rather than sustaining a puncture
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Follow Up By: Tim HJ61 (WA) - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 18:54

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 18:54
Appreciate your advice Phil, I'll look into it.

Tim
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Follow Up By: Tim HJ61 (WA) - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 19:18

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 19:18
Phil, what model Cruiser do I need to look at for getting rims? Are the 80 series okay? 6 stud pattern on the 60 series as you know.

Tim

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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 19:51

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 19:51
Tim,
80series, Prado and Nissan are no good - too much backspacing (different offset).

Tubeless rims for 60series: Toyota made a limited number of 60series with a 16x6 chrome rim that was tubeless (not to be confused with most 60series chrome rims that are a split rim, with the split on the inside). They are ideal for 235/86R16. They are hard to come by, but here is an example I found on EBay.

Aftermarket rims: 16x7 - easily bought, but cost up to $120 per rim new. Can fit both 235/85R16 and 265/75R16. I prefer the Speedy Desert Rat because they have a deeper well than the ROH Trak2. A deeper well makes it easier to change tyres when you are out in the field. I have both sitting in the shed, and just took this photo:
Image Could Not Be Found

Theres heaps of split rims out there for 60series (same rims as 40 and 70series), but I personally get sick of helping repair flat tyres caused by split tubes and pinhole leaks, and chnaging tyres everytime is a pain.
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Follow Up By: Dasher Des - Wednesday, Jul 23, 2008 at 10:35

Wednesday, Jul 23, 2008 at 10:35
Having read the reports. the common denominator is the 60series cruiser. In 1998, heading up the Oodnadata track in the old HJ62, 3 flats from stones(rear wheels) and stuffed two up before we got to Oodna, all fixed up at the Community shop including a replacement case and then next morning, about 30 k's up the road towards Hamilton, got another one. tyres were less than 50% as I then thought it would cost me less to replace a tyre.
Just came down from Dalhousie to Oodna last Friday, Road had recently been graded and was in excellent condition. And no flats either. LOL
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 20:16

Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 20:16
Hey Dasher!!!!! You bloody wally!!!! The common denominator (with emphasis on the word "COMMON"), is actually Blandcruiser!!!! hahahahahaha

Nowhere in this sad tale of woe, is there any mention of a Nissan. That is because EVERYTHING about Nissans is more reliable than toy-mota..... hahahaha

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Tim, sorry to read of your dilemmas.

I won't preach to you as you already have nailed the issues of pressures and tyre tread depth. New tyres and appropriate pressures will overcome 99% of the problems you experienced on that trip.

Cheers and all the very best

Roachie
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FollowupID: 584080

Reply By: Steve - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 20:21

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 20:21
And the rims ?? After Market or Original Equipment ?
AnswerID: 316624

Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 21:32

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 21:32
Steve,
Aftermarket.
All factory 60series rims were steel - the fancy ones were either 16x6 chrome or 15x7 chrome on the Sahara.
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FollowupID: 582915

Reply By: wannabee - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 22:02

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 22:02
im a tyre fitter from way back and the best advice i could give anyone on changing tyres on the side of the road is before it ever happens and your away on holidays is to go to your local tyre dealer and get them to show you how its done -it should only take them 5 minutes and they would probably be happy to show you.
my fourby club here in adelaide organized a tyre changing night with our local tyre dealer/also our club sponsor , it was a good turn out and was fun.
also get them to show you how to fit a tube- after all your plugs fall out/or leak a tube is the best bet.
you can get it fixed up without the tube when you get home.
rema tyre &tube patches and glue are one of the better repair gear to use, but knowing how to is again a challenge.
AnswerID: 316665

Reply By: Member - Glen O (WA) - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 22:42

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 22:42
Hi Tim,
I have lived in Karratha for the last 25 years and been to most the places you have mentioned. I had similar experience a bit over 10 years ago on 15" passenger contructed tyres, having to use the jack and tow bar to break the bead but managed to fit a tube to repair the flat.
The best thing to have is two full spares ready to go. I have been having a good run with Goodyear MTR's in 235/85/16 size.
35psi is to high for running on gravel roads up here. I run 22-25psi in the front and 25-30 psi in the rear. With the lower pressure the tyre moulds around the sharp rock instead or puncturing staight through the tyre.
I think you were just extremly unlucky this trip to have so many punctures. Better luck next time.
A mate of mine run's canola oil from the local fish & chip shop in his 6.5 Chevy diesel converted Range Rover. Has been going great for the last 3 years. He filters it through toilet rolls.

Glen.
AnswerID: 316672

Reply By: Member - Glen O (WA) - Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 22:42

Tuesday, Jul 22, 2008 at 22:42
Hi Tim,
I have lived in Karratha for the last 25 years and been to most the places you have mentioned. I had similar experience a bit over 10 years ago on 15" passenger contructed tyres, having to use the jack and tow bar to break the bead but managed to fit a tube to repair the flat.
The best thing to have is two full spares ready to go. I have been having a good run with Goodyear MTR's in 235/85/16 size.
35psi is to high for running on gravel roads up here. I run 22-25psi in the front and 25-30 psi in the rear. With the lower pressure the tyre moulds around the sharp rock instead or puncturing staight through the tyre.
I think you were just extremly unlucky this trip to have so many punctures. Better luck next time.
A mate of mine run's canola oil from the local fish & chip shop in his 6.5 Chevy diesel converted Range Rover. Has been going great for the last 3 years. He filters it through toilet rolls.

Glen.
AnswerID: 316673

Follow Up By: Oldsquizzy (Kununurra) - Wednesday, Jul 23, 2008 at 08:12

Wednesday, Jul 23, 2008 at 08:12
Same here Glen, I have a 61 with 15 inch rims and run 33 by 10.5 mtr's. My wife and I just spent four weeks wandering around the ranges and old goldfields south east of Hells Creek. Most of the time there werent even any tracks as some of the mines are from a hundred years ago and they used bullock drays to get in and out.
I run 28 psi all the time as I dont get to do a lot of bitumen driving ever and when I do just keep speed down.
Bit of chipping on lugs but no flats. Other than that I leave in H4 when in rocky terrain to spread the drive load front and rear, less wheel spin.
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FollowupID: 582953

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 20:25

Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 20:25
Ahh, there's another valuable tip....the one about leaving it in H4 whenever you're on a gravel road. I agree wholeheartedly.
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FollowupID: 584087

Reply By: PeterInSa - Thursday, Jul 24, 2008 at 16:59

Thursday, Jul 24, 2008 at 16:59
Tim,
I have a HJ61 1988, Cruiser, when we go WA bush gold prospecting from Adelaide I carry 3 spares plus a tube. Most years I am glad I have the 3 near new spares, becasue of the country we go thru like you, they generally get damaged. Only had to use the tube once 5 years ago when we only carried 2 spares.

I find the front tyres seem to get staked (by dead branches) more than the rear.

The additional spares allow you the convenience of when you can fix them up or replace them. The Spares are mounted, one on the roof, one on the back and one underneath.

Carry the additional spares and you could well have the company of your wife on your next trip.

Thanks for your story.

Peter
AnswerID: 316947

Reply By: Tim HJ61 (WA) - Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 19:23

Monday, Jul 28, 2008 at 19:23
Phil,

Thanks for your ideas.

I'll be picking up 6 16x8 Speedie rims and 4 new Bridgestone 694LT's 265/75x16 tomorrow. And a wireless pressure and temperature sensor will be wrapped for my birthday in a week or so.

With a 10 ply rating, load index of 123 = 1550kgs I should be fine for a while! $256 for the tyres, $110 for the rims.

The 2 empty rims will get second hand BFG's in due course as spares.

For now the trailer will get new Landcruiser hubs and the old rims with 15" tyres. Whilst not ideal, in an emergency they can be used on the car. I figured I might as well get the most out of the rubber I have on the trailer as they are not worth anything to anyone else.

I'll sell the two near new Cooper STT 31x10.5x15 with less than 2000 km on them for a fair price and I'll sell my light weight spun alloy 15x 8.5" rims too.

For anyones interest, the offset for the HJ61 Landcruiser with
8.5" rims is -34mm.
8" is -28mm
7" is -20mm

Thanks
Tim

AnswerID: 317724

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