The federal government is bringing out tougher laws for us

Submitted: Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 13:20
ThreadID: 69560 Views:6625 Replies:19 FollowUps:28
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G’day everyone

I’m in a Victorian 4wd club. At our recent meeting, the member who does all the work between the club and the Victorian association stood up and told us something.

Apparently, the federal government is currently organising new laws for lift on four wheel drives for all through out Australia (making state laws useless).

He told us that they’re going to make a 50mm (2 inches) limit on all your lift put together, that’s out of tyres, suspension and body lift all put together, and there’s absolutely no way around it, no engineering certificates or anything.

I don’t know about other states, but in Victoria, I’m 99% sure the limit is 2 inches suspension and 2 inches tyres, if the limit is made 2 inches out of all the car put together, 90% of four wheel drivers will have unroadworthy 4wd’s and will have to re modify their vehicles, especially the people with monster trucks.

I don’t know about other states, but in Victoria, at the moment the police and everyone hardly enforce the lift laws we’ve already got. One thing the club believes will happen, when new federal laws are made by the federal government, the cops and Vic Roads will really crack down on lift and they’ll have no choice anyway because the federal government will give strict orders to the state police and Vic Roads to strictly enforce it immediately, and when they start enforcing lift, they’re likely to start enforcing other laws, like competition tyres that are technically illegal to use on public land, driving lights all over the roof, that sort of thing.

One thing to, members are saying that with how politicians and police seem to love revenue raising from traffic infringements, this will be the perfect chance for it when 90% of four wheel drivers have illegal modifications on their cars.

The Victorian association is seeing what they can do, but apparently it doesn’t look good.
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Reply By: Flywest - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 13:49

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 13:49
I have a 4wd & I don't have any lift at all!

I think its wrong to suggest "90%" of 4wd's have lift etc etc.

I would say 90% of the 4wd's I see on the streets including all the tradesmans 4wds etc are factory standard.

Maybe 90% of the people in your 4wd club have lift kits, but as a % of the 4wd's on the road that will be affected, I'd be surprised if it is 10% =- probably a LOT less.

I'd be a LOT happier sharing the roads with 4wds that were as the designed / manufacturer intended! (i.e. not lifted).

I can see that IF you add a LOT of weight to the rear of the vehicle in the way of long range fuel tanks, and LPG tanls etc - so maybe 300 or 400 kilos - that your suspension might sag and you might want lift springs to bring it back to normal tolerances.

Generally speaking tho - I am NOT a fan of lifted 4wd's.

Essentially the axel's diffs etc are still the same height from the road, so no real extra ground clearance is gained. (Only the body's jacked way up).

I'd like to know that the 4wders sharing the roads with me - have vehicles as engineered by the manufacturer and in accordance with the Aust design rules, when it comes to stability in cornering etc.

I just can't see the point in jacking the body way up.

IF there is huge ground clearance differences with giant mudders tyres etc - then generally those twits seem to drive down sandy 4wd tracks without lowering their tyre pressures and chew the tracks wheel ruts so deep that standard 4wd's with legal tyres then can't get thru.

I would have to say I am in favour of the new regs whatever they might beif it gets this element off our roads and tracks and leaves them to the "normal people" who don;t use ther vehicles as some kinda toy to destroy the tracks for others.

My personal opinion, is that your 4wd should be for the purpose of getting somewhere to do some activity (fishing camping exploring photography gold mining etc etc, NOT as a form of entertainment in and of itself (i.e.lets go drown the bastage in some mud hole for fun, cause many $1000's damage to the vehicle, put all and sundry at risk while it is recovered/winched out) and call it a weekends fun - when we just made that track impassable to everyone else who might actually have needed to get thru for some LEGITIMATE activity.

To me, those who use the 4wd for "competition / 4wding" and destroy our environment in doing so are the enemy - they are the ones who give 4wds a bad name with the rest of society.

I as a rule dont subscribe to magazines that promote such activities on their covers etc (listening 4wd Australia?).

Maybe I'm different from aLOT of 4wders - but I'd be surprised if a LOT of the members here aren't just your grey nomads tourers who want info on products for towing and touring and destination information etc for their travels.

I honestly reckon SOME (not all) 4wd clubs are more focused on using the 4wd as and in itself as a form of "entertainment" and not as a "means to an end" to get somewhere remote for some legitimate purpose.

I guess I am getting old and showing it.

My 2c
Cheers
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Follow Up By: kingkennas - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 14:04

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 14:04
When I said 90%, I wasn't talking about 4wd's full stop, I was talking about the 4wd vehicles that are actually frequently used off road in Victoria.

There's no exact figure, only estimting and I could be wrong, but when I'm four wheel driving on a track, 90% of other vehicles I see actually on those tracks have more than 50mm of lift in total, or illegal tyres or tyres sticking out from the wheel arches or illegally fitted driving lights, something like that, but it could be a conicedence with what I've seen.
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Follow Up By: Rolly - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 14:13

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 14:13
Flywest,
I think that you have spoken for a lot of us who find our favourite 'off-road' areas becoming inaccessible due to the mindless activities of a small minority who treat the environment as if only they are entitled to (mis)use it.

Same goes for the mountains of garbage often left rot by gatherings of booze befuddled "mates" who don't give a stuff about others who might want to use the area later, and certainly not for the environment, nor it's flora and fauna.
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Follow Up By: Patrol22 - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 14:29

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 14:29
I would venture to say that most people who use there 4WD off the bitumen and for other than simply having a capable tow vehicle DO have a lift of some sort. I would venture to further say that the vast majority of lifts are on the suspension with somewhere between 40 and 60 mm. Manufacturers make their suspension to provide the best comfort level and safety when unladen. While this may be great on the autobahns of Europe, freeways and motorways of Australia and the US, they are by and large crap for off road travel. A 50mm lift will usually come with firmer suspension set up and allow for a better ride when laden and towing.
It drawing an awfully long bow to say that because someone has a lifted vehicle that they by definition will rip up the tracks....that is usually the domain of the small number of brainless fools who also persist in doing burnouts in suburban streets etc.
I have a 50mm lift and my vehicle handles much much much better than it did with the soft and sloppy factory fit. Indeed, factory suspension are to some extent the result of a cost engineering approach - ie what can be done cheapest to meet minimum required safety standards. Just have a look at the shockies on a factory standard 4WD....great for the highway but not so great on the corrugations of Cape York and other off road destinations.
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Follow Up By: Crackles - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 15:19

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 15:19
Flywest your reply seems to lack any real knowledge of 4 wheel driving & tars all who modify vehicles with the same brush.
"Essentially the axel's diffs etc are still the same height from the road, so no real extra ground clearance is gained." ..........
Obviously you are unaware of the terms Approach/departure/rampover angle as these are often the key to negotiating difficult terrain & are all improved with a suspension lift.
"I'd like to know that the 4wders sharing the roads with me - have vehicles as engineered by the manufacturer and in accordance with the Aust design rules, when it comes to stability in cornering etc."............
You make the assumption that if a manufacturer builds it then it must be right. Many modifications not only lift the car but actually improve the handling & ride by using better than standard components. Cars in general are built to a price & can always be improved. There should always be the option available to re-engineer cars for the better.
"IF there is huge ground clearance differences with giant mudders tyres etc - then generally those twits seem to drive down sandy 4wd tracks without lowering their tyre pressures and chew the tracks wheel ruts so deep that standard 4wd's with legal tyres then can't get thru."
Clearly you don't know any of these "twits" as "generally" they are the 1st to let their tyres down ;-)
"your 4wd should be for the purpose of getting somewhere to do some activity ...........4wd clubs are more focused on using the 4wd as and in itself as a form of "entertainment" and not as a "means to an end" to get somewhere remote for some legitimate purpose."
So now are you saying that 4 wheel driving for pleasure is not a legitimate purpose? And that we can't just drive for fun, we must now be doing some other "legitimate activity" in conjuction :-))
I'd like to think there's room on the tracks for the 10% who just enjoy driving a 4x4 :-)
Cheers Craig...........



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Follow Up By: Wherehegon - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 16:10

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 16:10
I had a 97 prado, I agree with Patrol22, we had a 2 inch (50mm) on the prado and while its main purpose was for support in the rear end when loaded it also made the vehicle handle alot better then the factory suspension, sloppy, bottoming out on the diff stops, body roll, etc. While I agree with you on some of the vehicles I have seen with massive lifts, wheels hanging out guards, spotties on the roofs, 1/2 a dozen hanging off the bullbar I do some times wonder how these things are registered and handle but at the same time most I have seen drive sensible so I wont be commenting on them or there vehicles. Yes some do dig up the tracks and make it harder for the next person to come through in a STANDARD 4wd BUT most who have these vehicles only go to tracks where I would have no chance of even taking the prado anyway, way out of my league, yes they like to bury them in mud, go through the deepest mud/water hole they can find but alot of this is done on private propertys/4wd clubs and at the end of the day its their vehicle and money and time to get all the mud off BUT hey I think most of us who have owned 4wds from a younger age have al done this ?? Some still do,AS long as there doing the right thing and not leaving rubbish and crap around everywhere and the tracks they are chewing up big time are on private land dont see a problem.. I have never had the big patrol/cruiser with lifts etc but sure as hell have had some fun in the old suzukis, hilux and old prado. I will be lifting the current prado we have again with a 50ml lift with again, bullbar, spotties, this one will be also set up for towing more so then the old one. Most insurance companys will only allow 50 mill lift. I know for sure the NRMA will allow 50ml suspension AND 50ml body lift. Cant be that bad for an isnurance company to allow it, especially when they would have alot of stats to go by ?? Just another money making scheme/revenue maker.. What about all the buzz boxes that are turbo'd, go like a dog shot in the clacker, wonder if they have had to do mods to brakes etc to pull them up ?? I doubt it, these are the vehicles wrapping around poles etc, isnt it speed that kills ?? not lifted 4wd's.............WHG
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Follow Up By: The Landy - Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 08:47

Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 08:47
I can see where Flywest’s comments are coming from. If a vehicle needs a lift after the addition of accessories such as long range fuel tanks to bring it back to ‘normal’ than there is no issue as I see it. We did this to our vehicle, but the body is not lifted beyond what it would have been with normal suspension and no long range tank or canopy.

What I’m often surprised about is the number of people who actually get lifts for the sake of it.

Like many things most likely 99.99% of people won’t be affected.

My ten cents worth…….
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Follow Up By: roger80 - Sunday, Jun 14, 2009 at 08:16

Sunday, Jun 14, 2009 at 08:16
Firstly,

I don't know why you think you have the right to determine what activities people should be allowed to do "as a form of entertainment in and of itself" and whether or not 4WDing is a "legitimate" activity. Does that mean that you can only go for a walk if it has a defined purpose and not just for the sake of "going for a walk?" What if you leave adult size foot prints that a child then gets stuck in? Is that any different to a 4WD leaving wheel ruts? Are mountain climbers who climb mountains simply because "they are there to be climbed" also doing the wrong thing in your opinion?

Secondly,

Why does having lift mean that you are going to tear up tracks any more than if you don't have lift? I suggest it may be just the opposite. A standard height 4WD has limitations when it comes to approach, departure and ramp over angles and may get caught up and therefore have wheel spin trying to get unstuck whereas a lifted 4WD will have the clearance to get over the obstacle and not have any wheel spin at all. A small amount of lift can make a big difference to these angles.

Thirdly,

4WD clubs I believe are mostly made up of responsible 4WDers who join the clubs to learn how to do their CHOSEN LEGITIMATE LEISURE ACTIVITY better, safer and with less impact to the environment. Yes,I am in a club. Yes, I have lifted my 4WD and Yes, I choose to sometimes go 4WDing just for the sake of it. I enjoy the challenge. I also let my tyres down when I go off-road and drive in a manner that minimizes my impact on the environment as I believe most clubbies do. It is part of what they teach you in driver training which I believe most if not all clubs encourage their members to undertake.


Sure, there are some idiots out there who do the wrong thing in lifted 4WDs with big tyres just as there are plenty of idiots doing the wrong thing in standard 4WDs. There are always going to be idiots doing the wrong thing no matter what LEGITIMATE LEISURE ACTIVITY you are involved in but nobody has the right to determine what should be "a form of entertainment in and of itself" unless such an activity is "unlawful."

That's my 2 bobs worth.


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Reply By: Member - DW (NSW) - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 14:04

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 14:04
There are some 4wd vehicles around that look like they are likely to be unroadworthy. They look really top heavy and even do not appear to handle very well when following them.
A tilt tray operator, out of Kununurra, was telling me of an almost new Landcruiser he picked up near Kalumburu. The owner had spent a lot of money on lifting it only to find it became very unstable with the result it overturned and was a write off.
Maybe the manufacturers know the limits of their vehicle when they build them better than some of the owners.
It is about time the Federal Government laws over ride the State laws as it seems some States do not put a priority on road worthy vehicles. Already we are all governed by the Australian Road Rules so it stands to reason that the Feds will ensure all vehicles comply to safety standards.
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Follow Up By: Kumunara (NT) - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 18:45

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 18:45
DW


I agree that some drivers go overboard on their lifts. 4WD by nature are top heavy and prone to rolling. To lift the vehicle increases that tendency.



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Follow Up By: Kumunara (NT) - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 18:46

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 18:46
DW


I agree that some drivers go overboard on their lifts. 4WD by nature are top heavy and prone to rolling. To lift the vehicle increases that tendency.



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Reply By: get outmore - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 15:27

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 15:27
sounds like bollocks

there are many areas where making laws fderal would make sense and they dont so what makes you think they will do it for 4wd lift?

we dont have federal road laws, gun laws, vehicle liscensing laws etc
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Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 13:13

Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 13:13
I believe we SHOULD have federal vehicle registration & road laws !!

To go to another state for an extended period, as here in WA, you then have to have your vehicle RE-registered in WA, or it has no 3rd party insurance and is considered as unregistered even though it remains registered in the original state.

We use vehicles to travel throughout the country, so it should be legal to use them in any state of the Commonwealth and for any period of time, as long as it is registered as roadworthy and the fees paid to the Government (what Government doesn't matter)

Maîneÿ . . .
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Reply By: George_M - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 15:55

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 15:55
Hi kingkennas

This is not legal or regulatory advice, however I think that Vic Roads already uses vehicle standards that have been developed nationally, specifically Vehicle Standards Bulletin (VSB) 14, the National Code of Practice for Light Vehicle Construction and Modification. It is Vic Roads compliance with VSB 14 that allows us Victorians to have a maximum 2" suspension lift, and tyres no more than 2" greater diameter (or 15mm smaller, I think) than the largest standard tyre. Modifications outside these limits require an engineering certificate.

It will be very interesting to see if the national standards change as you've written.

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Follow Up By: George_M - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 16:14

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 16:14
Well there you go - the internet is indeed our friend. There is a review of the NCOP underway - try here.

Not really sure what Section LS means:

"Section LS
• Clause 2.6 added advising that modifications to vehicles equipped with ESC not permitted under Section LS modification codes.
• Reference to commercial vehicles replaced with goods vehicle.
• The allowable wheel track increase of all off-road four wheel drive vehicles and goods vehicles (MC, NA, NB ADR category) has now been increased to no more than 50mm beyond the maximum specified by the vehicle manufacturer for the particular model.
• Codes LS7 and LS8 have been updated with more information added to content and checklists – amount of vehicle lift permitted has not been changed from the original version of the NCOP."

I notice comments on Version 2 closed in April. Not sure if there are further versions, or what the process is.

George

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Reply By: Member - Longtooth (SA) - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 16:05

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 16:05
kingkennas lead story on the lift rules mooted to be implemented are the same as we were given at a briefing in SA on the 21st May. That seems to be what our commie federal government wants. That will be what our mainly commie state governments will do. Remember the golden rule - he who has the gold makes the rules!
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Follow Up By: Patrol22 - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 17:00

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 17:00
Actually Longtooth it was JWH (ie he who sits on the right hand of Genghis Khan but was a pretty good PM for the most part) who introduced the set of national standards that are currently being bandied about....and not as you so eloquently put it 'our commie federal....state governments' (who also for the most part have done a pretty good job...stand fast NSW in later years). These things come up for review periodically and usually end up with reasonable outcomes. To take to your political high horse adds nothing to any debate IMHO.
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Reply By: wild dog - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 16:58

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 16:58
This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Off Topic Rule .

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Reply By: Muddie - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 18:23

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 18:23
So if you have a current engineers certificate for lift and tyres, will it be void???
AnswerID: 368731

Follow Up By: kingkennas - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 18:31

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 18:31
When the meeting was over and people were having a chat, a fair few people went up to him for questions and someone asked him that, yes engineering certificates people have already got are void, apparently the government wants it to be a 50mm total lift full stop.
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Follow Up By: George_M - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 19:41

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 19:41
kk

From the documents I've read (see above post) the "maximum 50mm lift" applies to ESC equipped vehicles only.

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Follow Up By: kingkennas - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 20:39

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 20:39
Well I don't know too much, but that's not what the association is trying to tell all the clubs.

Other clubs have had the same thing said to them.

I've been talking to people who know because the association has told them over the phone or face to face or on email.

Either it's all 4wd's or there's been a huge misunderstanding and the wrong information is going to thousands of people.

Maybe it's something to do with past laws and new laws, maybe it's a grey area of law, maybe it's something to do with different states and governments, I don't know, it's weird, but I'd say the association would know and the president of the Victorian association is an experienced lawyer.
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Follow Up By: Member - ross m (WA) - Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 00:30

Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 00:30
They dont normally void an engineers certificate when rules change (unless a serious fault was built in)
The govt would open itself up to compensation claims if it voided certificates.

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Reply By: DIO - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 19:52

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 19:52
Don't think it is bollocks. Tonight's news announced ALL new vehicles must have Stability Control fitted and active by 2014. Victorian Govt. announced they will require such equipment 3 years earlier - 2011. With the high rate of single vehicle accidents (of all vehicles) it suggests drivers are not coping or exceeding their ability. Guess the govt. figures that the more controls fitted to vehicles the less likelyhood driver error will have in contributing to such accidents (collisions). All about road safety - for everyone.
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Follow Up By: tim_c - Monday, Jun 08, 2009 at 12:06

Monday, Jun 08, 2009 at 12:06
Interesting. Personally, I think licences are handed out far too easily and have been reading reports of several recent major crashes involving young drivers in Victoria. I guess it's easier for the Gov't to mandate compulsory ESC/ESP rather than to admit that they've been issuing licences far too freely.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd be surprised if mandatory ESC/ESP substantially reduces the rate of road deaths.
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Reply By: BenDiD - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 22:55

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 22:55
There is something very simple we can all do to stop this ever happening.

Remember this and act accordingly when our "mate" from Qld goes to the polls.
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Follow Up By: Patrol22 - Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 08:37

Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 08:37
I don't think that would achieve much even if enough people could be mobilised to protest. Believe it or not the development work on these sorts of things is done by the departmental staff/engineers and then discussed with state counterparts and then around the block again for good measure. Once an agreed position is established this is then put to public discussion and in most cases will go before a specialist panel or a parliamentary committee. After this, which sometimes takes years (like is the case here this new code has now been on the table for 3 years - ie way before Rudd), the various ministers (State and Federal) sign off on the deal. The only legislation that is required is if enabling legislation from one or more of the states is needed to bring a whole-of-Aus set of rules into place.
Would changing the government effect a change....I doubt it once the bureaucracy gets its teeth into such things they develop a life of their own.
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Follow Up By: Patrol22 - Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 08:39

Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 08:39
ohhh ....and that's the Washminster system of government at work...ie our form of democracy. Is it the best.....well it could always do with some fine turning but by and large it has served us pretty damn well over 200 odd years.
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Follow Up By: BenDiD - Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 10:07

Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 10:07
Patrol,

I wouldn't bother with protests either - I am suggesting we remember who shafted us and vote accordingly.

Yes, the working level detail is prepared by Departmental staff - but they simply implement policy settings.

The policy comes from elected politicians.

The essence of this policy is: Kevin & his soy latte friends despise 4WD owners. They wrongly see us as bush bashing, CO2 polluting, National Party voting, gun toting rednecks. Policies like this are just a way of pollies screwing people they wrongly see as the "enemy".

The worst thing we can do in the face of this is accept it. We don't need to publicly mobilise - that is often counter productive - better to hit 2 fronts: (1) representations through ANFWDC at Departmental level to minimise the impact of policies like this, and (2) within ANFWDC to ensure we all remember who is ultimately responsible at election times and vote accordingly.
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Reply By: splits - Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 23:52

Saturday, Jun 06, 2009 at 23:52
I would imagine the reason behind whatever the Federal or any State Government is planing will have something to do with accidents. Drivers of any kind of cars see the occassional accident on the road or on TV but there are people in Government departments who see the police and/or accident investigation team reports on all accidents.

It would be interesting to see the exact causes of all those involving 4wds. Modifications like larger diameter wheels will increase the breaking distance. Raising the centre of gravity dosen't help either. Changes in the distance between the centre of gravity and the roll centre of a suspension can have an adverse effect on the roll angle of the car and the way it handles. Few 4b owners would have a clue what any changes they have made to their suspensions have done to its geometry and I don't mean its wheel alignment. Any detrimental effects may not be evident until the car gets into an emergency situation.

There is also overloading which is common with 4wds. It could be argued that this is encouraged by the huge number of aftermarket springs available to "correct" this problem.

If all of these things are showing up in national statistics as being a probelm of sufficient severity to warrant regulation changes, then they are going to be introduced sooner or later
AnswerID: 368768

Follow Up By: Patrol22 - Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 08:41

Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 08:41
Spot on Splits....but we still shouldn't let the facts get in the way of a good whine :-)
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Follow Up By: Crackles - Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 09:13

Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 09:13
Your theory Splits relys on the premiss that there are actually statistics to support the introduction of these laws. Well, where are they? ;-) If this is such a serious problem as they are making it out to be then "the facts" should be fairly easy to find, would they not?
Like "banning bull bars in the city" I see these regs as going over a little over the top.
Cheers Craig...............
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Follow Up By: splits - Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 13:12

Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 13:12
Craig

I am just assuming that is the reason. Governments usually have to be pushed to do anything. They don't wake up each day and ask themselves what are they going to do for the day then say, "I know, we can get stuck into 4wds, Yeah, great idea". There will be a reason and it will most likely have been building up for a long time.

It could be because of track damage but I doubt it. Stock cars can do a fair job of that in wet conditions. It does not have to be the lifted variety.

We hear plenty of complaints on talk back radio from people who don't like looking up at the top of some 4b tyres stopped inches from their window in heavy traffic but once again, I doubt if that is behind it.

Accidents could be a different story though and it may not be so much the number of accidents but the cause of them that is causing concern.

We could probably easliy find out the number each year but the cause will be locked up in lengthy reports which are not made public. I dare say you could get access to them if you wanted to but the Government is not going to come looking for you to show you.
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Follow Up By: Patrol22 - Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 13:41

Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 13:41
Far too much thought going into that post Splits :-) far far easier to simply blame the pollies. I too doubt very much if the average pollie would give a toss about 4WDs but they would react to pressure groups and particularly those from such notable institutions as the Monash Uni crash investigation people, the stats coming from Insurance Companies, police, RTAs etc etc. As I've said before changes to design rules are for the most part generated in the bureaucracy....these are not things the average voter cares about. Now if we were to talk about health, ageing, pensions, employment etc then that is another matter.
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Reply By: Brian Purdue - Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 09:18

Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 09:18
The argument for needing "extra lift" when carrying addidtional fuel is false. 150 litres of fuel weighs less than a couple of lard arses, (like me 95 kilos) in the back seat and in addition the weight is generally lower. (Some of course insist on carrying the fuel in jerry cans on the roof rack).
Most problems appear to be caused by overloading combined with excess speed. Why do people who are "looking around our great country" need to travel so fast?. Why do they have to carry so much stuff. You can buy food every second day almost anywhere in Australia unless you are camping for a protracted time and then you do not need so much fuel.
I recall reading some words of wisdom here a while ago. "When travelling buy something from the little store on the side of the road. Next year they may have gone broke and closed down and you need help."
I no longer have my RR but still get about in the car. I make it a habit to follow those words of wisdom. I still top up with fuel and have a chat even now.
Happy travelling
AnswerID: 368798

Follow Up By: splits - Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 13:23

Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 13:23
One thing that never seems to get mentioned when people talk about lifts, heavy loads a stiffer springs is the car manufacturer's maximum load specifications for the front and rear axle. It is very easy to exceed them and no amount of heavy springs or air bags is going to fix it.

If that is ever a contributing factor in an accident, you can bet the accident investigation team will notice it as will the insurance company.
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FollowupID: 636322

Reply By: paulnsw - Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 10:21

Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 10:21
The new laws will in fact be stricter than you state.
Hopefully this will help stop the rampant 4WD environmental vandalism that is so prevalent. We are campaigning for stiffer laws at Federal and State level and containment of 4WD because of the alarming 4WD vandalism in to the environment everywhere. About time 4WD rampant hooliganism is curtailed. Australian bush can no longer tolerate destruction of everything by much idiots behind the wheels of 4WD.
AnswerID: 368807

Follow Up By: V8Diesel - Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 11:05

Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 11:05
Bit bored this morning cob?

If you're going to be a troll and bait us, at least go to much school and lurn how to right proppa.

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FollowupID: 636309

Reply By: D200Dug- Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 11:31

Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 11:31
They would be better to bring in compulsory ABS and traction control for all new vehicles, these would be the best and safest options.

As for lift we replaced the springs and shocks and had 20mm lift put in and our vehicle is far safer and has less body roll than the manufactures standard suspension. I feel safer handling on the road with the mods done than in the vehicle as delivered.
AnswerID: 368816

Reply By: _gmd_pps - Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 12:08

Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 12:08
I would much prefer the license to be harder .. lets say $4000 or so like in other countries or maybe even a special license for larger, stronger vehicles (like motorbikes) .. that takes a few idiots off the road ... and I would much prefer the police crack down on drivers with lights not working. The number of cars with lights not working (front, rear, brakes) is staggering ... and the number of posers with their fog lights on under normal conditions ... the few 4WD with d.ck extensions are not really the problem I guess ...
And yes .. any excuse to get rid of this government is good ..

have fun
gmd
AnswerID: 368822

Reply By: png62 - Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 16:13

Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 16:13
I have 50mm suspension lift.

I have 50mm larger tyre diameter.

I enjoy challenging drives - on tracks, in this "free" land.

I am with patrol22 mostly....... I utilise my vehicle as he does plus a bit more, I like the more remote parts of the country where I can escape the wannabes and yahoos.

How about we just have a better enforcement of the current laws...... I resent the yobbos who drive obviously unsafe vehicles with huge lift and enormous tyres, tear up our tracks, leave the rubbish, earn us the bad reputation and bad press. I resent the yobbos whose cars are dropped lower and souped up so they can do burnouts, etc. I resent the "decent hard working" people who drive whilst on their mobiles - because their behaviour couldn't possibly cause an accident could it? (sorry - cynicism and sarcasm in one statement - I'm a little ticked off with these issues)

Blame our pollies - yeah why not - after all they are the government we deserve.

More importantly blame yourselves, yes me too, stop whining and send an email to your local MPs, State and Federal. Join the ANFWDC and have this say in a fashion that can influence policy.

Stop the vocal minority - "the squeaky hinge gets the oil" - over-ride them with your voices in the pollies ears....!!!!!!!!!

No-one else will do it for you - accept responsibility .... !!!!!!!!

Stay safe out there, be vigilant boys and girls, because all these rules and regs will NOT stop people speeding and drink driving and just plain old being too stupid to ever be permitted to be in charge of a motor vehicle.

AnswerID: 368836

Reply By: chris_s - Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 18:58

Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 18:58
For years people have been complaining about different laws in the different states. The same applies to 4X4 mods. What's legal in one state is illegal in the next. I've got a 50mm lift with slightly larger tyres (26570x17 as opposed to the original 27065x17) on my patrol.
AAMI knows and accepts this as a legal mod, but any higher and a larger tyre would make it unroadworthy (and not insured).
Qld (according to members on the Nissan Patrol Forum) have complained on being pulled over and given unroadworthy tickets. The same applied to 4X4s going through Marysville and Merrijig last year. Quite a few wre put off the roads.
It is about time the states had uniform road and traffic laws, especially when towing, travelling interstate.
AnswerID: 368850

Follow Up By: _gmd_pps - Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 19:15

Sunday, Jun 07, 2009 at 19:15
Why ?
I am happy with what we have in WA and couldn't give a damn about the eastern states regulations. Stay where you are .. if you need your yearly tickets ? well so be it .. we can't be bothered with such money scams

have fun
gmd
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FollowupID: 636354

Reply By: Nargun51 - Tuesday, Jun 09, 2009 at 11:30

Tuesday, Jun 09, 2009 at 11:30
A few years ago, I was driving a Honda Prelude (my wife’s car at the time) along a divided highway when a lifted Hilux with oversized muddies that was overtaking me decided to inhabit the same lane. He may have forgotten I was there, didn’t see me or had a momentary lapse in concentration; doesn’t really matter

Despite leaning on the horn, braking and heading onto the verge, the bottom edge of the bull bar managed to tap the Prelude’s driver’s side mirror.

I know the Prelude is a low car and the seating is also low, but it was terrifying to see a bull bar coming in at head height.

Interesting that not one person so far has stated a thing about the other 98% (10% of all 4WD’s lifted?) of other cars on the road that are not lifted and discuss the possible implications for them.

Gives a pretty good indication of what these people really think about others they share the road with

Personally, fit what ever lift you want to your car.

However, be prepared to wear the consequences either of your decision in the civil or criminal jurisdictions but don’t expect the 98% to support or finance your decisions

PS: give you a hint, the lawyers will get richer; the insurance companies won’t get poorer
AnswerID: 369080

Reply By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 at 15:42

Wednesday, Jun 10, 2009 at 15:42
Your club has only just heard about NCOP?? Your kidding arent you?? Its been coming for 10yrs.

Anyway NSW and Qld have started re-writing it, so it isnt coming anytime soon.
AnswerID: 369329

Reply By: GLX3000 - Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 at 19:21

Thursday, Jun 11, 2009 at 19:21
Flywest said in part:

"I honestly reckon SOME (not all) 4wd clubs are more focused on using the 4wd as and in itself as a form of "entertainment" and not as a "means to an end" to get somewhere remote for some legitimate purpose.

I guess I am getting old and showing it."
-----------

Flywest, you got my vote. I would bet the farm there's more of "us" then there is of "them", ie., people just wanting to go about their lawful way, enjoying Australia within the law. The redneck brigade who care little about habitat destruction will be taken care of with the impending law changes.

If, and it's a -big- IF, the laws are policed and enforced. The down side will be that the Feral Guvmint may chuck a blanket over -all- 4wheelers and find ways to fatten its coffers - Polies gotta be paid hey!

Why do the "lifters" not lobby local guvmint to get themselves the use of a quarry. Transport your (unlicense-able) rigs by trailer and go knock yourself out. Enjoy - Don't Destroy. No Puss, No Pain! We have our tracks, you have your quarries.

As for driving lifted rigs on our suburban streets and highways - get real! I mean, get real!!

Yeah maybe I'm getting too old too, but I know what's sensible and safe.

wood4me



AnswerID: 369554

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