Family caravan with bunks - How big is too big??

Two points you should know before buying the van:

What sort of vehicle are you going to tow with?

Make sure you calculate the GCM (Gross Combination Mass) that means the weight of the van, vehicle and ALL the goodies you are going to take with you.

Too heavy and you just may have to leave the kids and dogs at home ;-)

Malcolm

Took a dog away once, never again. Too limiting, had to put him in kennels off and on. I'd have another shot at a temporary home for them.

Lots of van parks and most state forests won't allow dogs.
2!! I hope they're not big ones? Sound like they need new homes. Life will be busy enough with the kids!

We're preparing for a trip, too.

We're in a similar situation with dogs, but only 2 kids.
At $42/day for 2 dogs, long-term kennelling isn't an option.

Size of dogs is a major factor- one of ours is about 7kg and fits anywhere, while other is a gangly 24kg who needs about 4X the space, especially if stretched out in hot weather.

Sorry, can't advise on vans as we're also new to this.

Camps Australia Wide (no. 5) book includes info on dog-friendly parks/ rest stops/ state forests etc http://www.exploroz.com/Shop/Books/Misc/Camps_Australia_Wide_5_-_Spiral_Bound.aspx. People tell us this is a great book to have.

We also have Travelling with Dogs (NRMA) book + use forums at dogzonline.com.au.

Although books say parks are dog friendly, dogs aren't permitted during school holidays at some and one stated "not on weekends". Some phoning ahead also required, I think?

Hi there, as was stated before just remember all the stuff you will take with you for such an extended trip as it all weighs something and will add to your load and I'm just wondering ...what breed of dogs do you have as I can see you will only have 2 seats left over once all the family jumps in and those dogs are gonna get restless on long trips arnt they ?? I have a fridge in the back of my cruiser as I need it for those day trips without the van have you got much gear inside the car with you ? I'm taking my wife and 2 boys around oz for 9.5 months and we had to decide to leave our dog behind as you cant even get out of your car with the dog in a National park and there are some fab N/Ps to visit in this country !!
good luck with your planning and I hope to see you guys on the road somewhere :)

Hi there. About dogs: we have a spaniel, and took her with us last year to the Kimberly and Pilbara via Alice and Katherine and home (to Adelaide) via the Nullarbor. We had two problems with Lexie: one was the relatively few kennels/boarding options; the other was ticks. Too many of the best places were National Parks. So yes, it was a problem. So much so I would not want to repeat the problem; but then I would not wish to leave her behind for such a long time (11 weeks). So no, I don't have an answer.
Only one comment about weights etc.: with four kids and two dogs, there won't be much spare room in the LC. So that means you cannot distribute the load between van and vehicle - it will all have to go in the van.
Some so-called 'Tare' weights are a joke, and have nothing to do with the real weight of the van even empty. Then there's the issue of what was included in the van when its Tare was weighed (if in fact it was ever weighed!), such as water (as mentioned) or gas bottles, or airconditioner or awning or bike racks.
All this before you start to add a generator, bikes, food, tools, spare wheels.
So don't be surprised if the real empty weight is 2400 to 2500 kg, before adding your equipment, personal possessions and food. Which probably doesn't leave much in terms of both ATM and GCM.
26ft is, well, huge! I'd be very keen on a test drive before I signed up, especially since you have had no previous taste of what is involved. Your van will be ten feet longer than ours, and even that seemed immense at first, especially travelling backwards, which happens to all of us sometimes.
Hope it all worksout!
Regards

Greetings,
Much as I hate to say it, I don't think that you will be legal unless you tow with something huge (F350 or similar).

Your biggest problem will be staying under the GCM for your outfit, that is:- your tow vehicle and everything in it including 6 people, 2 dogs and luggage and your caravan and everything in it, including food, water, clothing, gen set?. etc may well exceed the allowable GCM for your tow unit.

Exceeding the GCM is generally frowned upon, (it is illegal), by the police and certainly by your insurance company who can and probably will use it as a reason not to cover you, should anything unforeseen happen.

Going off on a tangent, have you considered a large converted bus/coach with sleeping for 6, possibly a bit more room internally and possibly around the same cost as buying a Landcruiser and a custom built caravan.
You could tow a trailer with a smaller vehicle on it if necessary.

Just a thought or two for you to consider.

Disco.

Advertise the dogs to go to a good home . I know they are pets but you have 4 kids to look after as well .

I would have a look at some of the European-style vans. Some are pretty well-made despite their light weight. I suppose it depends on the type of travelling you intend to do. Long and sustained trips along corrugated roads might not be a good idea although I believe some of them will stand up to a fair amount. The reason I suggest this type of van is not only it's light weight, but their innovative design systems typical of British/European vans. Beds pull from out of the wall, thus saving space, size and therefore weight. It's a slight chore to pull the bed out at night but when you look at the alternatives, you're only sacrificing 5/10 mins every night and saving yourself a lot of weight to pull and a lot of length to tow and park. Brands like Burtner, Geist and Adria (good value) for starters are worth a look.

Regarding the doggies, we've travelled with ours for years and although you have to sometimes miss out on certain areas, a surprising amount of places do take them, especially away from the popular east coast areas. If you look through the archives you'll find others have travelled extensively around the country with their pets. You just have to look a bit harder and grab yourself a couple of good guides like Camps 5, Craig Lewis and Cathy Savage do another which I think is every bit as good along with the ones the tourist info put out you should be ok. We have been to places like Lawn Hill/Adel's Grove where the campsite owners will keep an eye on your dogs in a pen just outside the office whilst you go to the gorrge. Other dog owners will sometimes look after your's for a day if you return the favour. Several sites we've been to are happy to let a member of staff keep an eye and take your dog for a walk for a small fee.

You really have a LOT to think about. One is: are we taking too many people/pets and expecting to put them all into a caravan.

You are talking about vans between 23 feet and 26 feet long. About the longest van you should put behind a Landcruiser is about 20 feet. You should hark back to your high school physics and think about MASS and MOMENTUM. If you have to swerve and brake suddenly while underway you will have this huge, heavy pendulum (your van) hanging off the back of your Cruiser. Instead of your Cruiser PULLING your van, your van will be PUSHING your Cruiser. Your van brakes can do just so much and it is very likely to push your Cruiser off the road in a jack-knife action.

An extreme illustration of what I’m talking about: imagine a marine tug in front of a supertanker. The supertanker, by virtue of its MASS and MOMENTUM needs many kilometres to slow down to a stop. If the tug can’t get out of the way (like your Cruiser can’t because it is connected to your van) the tanker will just push it aside into the ditch. It will be even worse if you have created a perilous situation by having to swerve your Cruiser to avoid a hazard on the road.

In a lot of ways, for that many people, you should be thinking of a motorhome.

Can I ask what brand of caravan you guys are looking at ordering?

Hi, only have 2 suggestions for you to consider...
1) You have 4 children & 2 dogs, you need a van to accommodate them, so it will be sizeable through necessity. Take into account the technical info that the good people here have pointed out re weights etc, then buy what you consider will be comfortable for you and your family. Yes things may be awkward due to the size of the rig at times, but you cant go around, with 4 kids, in a 2 man tent!
2) Consider whether you REALLY want to go.... by the tone of your posts and replies to advice, I'd say you really do. So... DO IT!
Like I said, take into account the technical stuff the people have pointed out, buy whatever suits you and these 'restrictions', pack up, and go and have the time of your lives. Sure, the dogs will restrict you in some ways, sure the size of the van will too, sure having 4 children on the road may make for uncomfortable situations at times, hey! life wasn't meant to be breezy (well, not all the time). Look at the positives, all your family will be together, including the family pets, you're going on a big adventure, have fun.
Frequent this site, and ask question after question, make sure you are as prepared as you can be, nobody here will mind answering you to the best of their knowledge and/or ability.
Enjoy, Dave
P.S. as my son always says to me before I go away, 'take lots of pictures!'

hi, just found this link from another forum about fishing (on this site) with some info you may want to check out, or make contact with.
Hope Matt and Caz dont mind.

http://www.travelingoz.webs.com/

Buy your dogs some charcoal bites. Our dog is 6 and can clear the car very quickly. We take him on small trips but he is staying with nanna when we go for the big one. Something to remember is your weight that gets loaded up in the car not to mention the van. The roof rack if you have one is so easy to load up and so dangerous if you dont know what your doing. Have you had experience towing. There is so much to consider. Which way are you heading. We have three kids and travel with the 17"van, tent swags and bikes. It all adds up. I keep thinking about the families that travel around with a camper trailer for two years with kids. They seem to manage.

I'm not a greatly experienced caravanner, AND it's many years since the family used one, AND it was only for short breaks (weeks not months)

BUT - as highlighted above,

a landcruiser and large caravan 22-26'

PLUS clothes and linen for 6 people,

PLUS bikes/scooters/scateboards/toys for the kids,

PLUS necessary vehicle spares (belts/filters/spare tyres) plus caravan extras (LPG Bottles/BBQ?/Hoses for fresh and waste water etc etc etc)

PLUS personal items (Hair Dryers/Laptop/Mobiles and the respective chargers)

is GUARANTEED to exceed the gross vehicle weights of both the car and caravan.
(Even at the legal gross weights an inexperienced operator would find it a nightmare to drive.)

In summary I have to agree with advice posted above that you should seriously consider a LARGE motorhome which will allow you much more internal space and an enormous increase in carrying capacity (weight).
(You will require an "Heavy Vehicle Licence" to drive one.)

As stated above you will also require a tandem trailer and a vehicle large enough to safely and legaly carry your family but it won't need to be anywhere near as large as a Landcruiser.


GOOD LUCK


Peter

Hi, Sounds like you have lot's of research to do! The trick to keeping the weight down is to really think through what you will need. We also have 4 kids ages 13,11,10,7. We have a Patrol and have had a lot of fun family trips. You really don't need that much! We travel out in the bush without towing anything, just a and tents, and are able to be fully self sufficient for up to 3 weeks, ie carrying all food, water etc so that we don't go near a shop for the whole time. Also have made a trip towing a camper trailer. I know it is a different scenario, much longer trip, but the point is, don't take it unless you really need it.

Regarding the van, why a toilet and shower? If you are going to parks you will be using them anyway rather than squashing into a tiny cubicle.

Obviously some people travel with pets, but personally would never do it.

You may want to hire or borrow a van between now and when you go, and take a small trip. I think this would be the best process for learning, and you will realise what is important for you! Every person has a different style and want different things.
Hope this helps somewhat.

Some mass (weight) definitions here.
http://www.racq.com.au/motoring_advice/about_your_car/towing/trailer__and__tow_vehicle_specifications_explained

Mate,

Go the Jayco expanda. With your kids being so young and therefore small the expanda would meet your needs. Instead of having a double mattress at one end just get two single mattresses and turn them north/south instead of the current east/west configuration of the double. Then the 7 & 5 kids will have their own beds with a little space in between. The two 3 year olds would easily fit head to toe on the converted table/bed. And you can get one with a shower/toilet and slide out lounge section all in around 16-18 feet when towing. This will reduce the length you have to tow making it safer, I do agree that getting beyond 22ft internal is a lot to manage.

Even though you would have a reduced length van yopu still end up with all the space you need once fully opened up plus a reasonable sized annexe that kids could sleep in in the warmer climates; plenty of options.

As others have said you still would need to watch your weight. Do a couple of short trips to sort out what you actually use and need and what you can leave behind.

Happy travels, wish I was doing it!!!!

Cheers
Ev

Hi, we did it 4 two years with 2 kids and one dog. Our van was a 24footer shower toilet combo. I recall seeing a few years ago a van approximately 20 feet with a L shape set up at front with bedding for three and wardrobe. Your 2 three year olds could share the bottom bunk on left, 5 year old on top bunk and 7 year old above the wardrobe across the front. To the right was the toilet shower. A mid mounted kitchen and a fold down bed from side wall at the rear. I recall this set up was a great idea for saving on length and weight. It also serves as a great way of opening up space inside the van. I think Avan make a van in their pop top range with A/Cond and posibly toilet with the reverse set up, double fold down at front. Seen these a couple of months back second hand on ebay for around 30 thou in great condition. Just do it, u will have a great time and I understand the dog thing.
Gav

RVPoint.com.au is a good place to start if you want a second hand van. Lots to choose from with lots of photos and contact names and numbers to go and look. We travelled with 4 kids, no dogs though, and not full time on the road. We did have a few extended holidays of 4 to 5 weeks away. We had a Jayco Dove. Pretty squashy. As suggested in another post, op shops are great for circulating end of season clothes. Saves having to carry wardrobes full of both seasons for 6 people. If you are not going remote you can hit the local IGA or Friendly stores every few days. This cuts down on carrying extra weight in food. An annex is a bit of a pain and takes up a fair bit of room and adds weight, an awning is good. We carried a small light tent for the kids to play in when we arrived at destination. Another alternative could be one of those fly screen tents. (flies can be bad for little ones' eyes and for spreading tummy bugs) We didn't take any bikes or scooters away. We tried to stop at parks for meal breaks, some colouring in stuff, books, balls and sand pit trucks are good. I made our kids their own bags that hung off the chair in front of them. Most van parks have an area for kids. Must admit a toilet and shower would have been heaven but we survived without. Stay calm and above all don't panic. Oh and don't forget a really good first aid kit plus some first aid knowledge.

Cheers, Sally

Hi There,

We are currently travelling oz have been on the road full time now for 8mths, we have a triple bunk retreat daydream it has sep shower/tiolet and queen size bed, we plan to be away at least 2yrs but not limited as the kids are home schooled. Our van is 23 foot long we tow it with a 97 80's turbo diesel cruiser.

Our van has 7 double power points however we don't use them all. We have a table for outside cooking on the 3 burner gas stove. I also have (because we are living in the van for a long period) a Gas oven, grill and stove top, seperate Fridge and freezer (184 ltrs I think). Our van came with a microwave however I don't use it much (never did at home either). We have 2 9kg gas bottles on the van, a gas light for free camping.

Hope this helps, please feel free to email me at carolinehys@yahoo.com.au if you have any other Q's.

Cheers
Caroline
http://www.travelingoz.webs.com

Hi Leah,

Just reading thru the replies some do sound a bit negative but they are only trying to help. Vehicle weights (and associated stability and braking not to mention insurance) are very important both for your own safety and everyone elses. It's one thing to write yourself off, it's another to take another innocent family with you! By identifying these important items, you hopefully can find what you need in a useable package so that you enjoy your trip rather than worry all the time. You haven't said what your hubby does or his experience (or yours either, cause you might have to drive too) towing... he might be a truck driver for all we know and be more capable of driving a big rig than most. Making the right (or somewhat right!) decisions know could save you a lot of money down the track. You wouldn't be the 1st person to have to upgrade their car to pull a van they went and bought! Not to bad if you're upgrading an existing vehicle but a costly excercise if you went and bought one especially for the task and it didn't fit the bill!

More specifically, I can't remember anyone recommending a 5th wheeler in discussions so far probably because of the number of kids you need to seat. I wonder if there's a small truck with seating for 6 (dogs could travel at their feet/ in the 5th itself / special cage or compartment built into the fiver) A little bit of imagination might be needed, but if your prepared to get a van built and by a Landcruiser, now is the time to explore all possibilities, although to get something built, time is running out! With a 5th wheeler you could leave it at a C.P. whilst seeing the surrounding area. If you went for a motorhome towing a vehicle, that vehicle is still going to have to be big enough for 6 seats and the mutts. Not sure what fits the bill there.

Regarding the bed ends of an Expanda. We have a little wind-up camper with similar sleeping arrangements and had the matress split into two for our kids. This way they get tucked in seperately and don't annoy each other too much (except when they want to... hey they're boys!!!).

I'd probably leave out the shower and toilet as nice as they would be too have with the kids. Showering 4 kids regularly would be time consuming... actually I think I've changed my mind on that!!! Wet shower cubicles are a bugger with little kids, at least in your van you can put them on a towel while you dry them.

Cheers, Nige

Just a hint.

Get all your gear that you think that you will be loading into the van.
Pots, Pans, clothing. cooking utensils, toys. electric games computers and anything else you may think you need then weigh each item or boxes of items add it all up and see what you get. Then add the number of litres of water the van tanks hold ( each litre = 1Kg) Plus gas weight in bottles then add all this to the tare of the van and see what you come up with.
Your going to be in for a shock I'm sure.
With a 26ft van you will have a lot of trouble in van parks and even getting into State forests because of length and turning circle.

.

FYI
Buy the "Camping with Dogs" book.
State forests allow dogs, National Parks don't.

Firstly a correction A 100ser can tow 3500KG

Secondly getting a 23ft van into a lot of van parks is a bit tough.

Our van is 21ft 6 and is 25ft overall We have been refused in some parks when its busy due to a small number of sites for large vans.

Dogs may be allowed in some parks but are not necessarily appreciated by your neighbours.

You are also generally not allowed to leave them and take off for the day.

Also it is a bit hot up North to have them in a car for extended periods like when you go shopping.

Ticks as stated are also a problem.

Weights generally the tare is only a fictitious figure for a model of a van and not necessarily yours.
A tandem van is normally allocated 400kg load over tare.
This might seem a lot till you take

180kg water
30kg gas bottles and gas
23kg water in hot water system.
??? contents of fridge

??? clothes and extra linen and towels
???Food
??? Annexe ( quite heavy)
Chocks and hoses and bits and pieces
Toaster Iron?? BBQ Pots and pans.

It all adds up.

Buy the latest edition of Caravan and Motor home.
There is an arrticle in there by a guy who did the figures and its quite interesting.
His was an off road van with a higher load capacity but will give you the idea.

Weights again The gross loaded weight of a 100ser is 3260kg
INCLUDING THE BALL WEIGHT OF THE VAN
Payload is 672kg for an Auto
So by the time you hook the van on with about 280 kg ball weight you will be drawing straws to see who stays at home with the dogs.

The GCM is 6680kg that is the loaded weight of both

Roof load is 200kg including weight of rack and is still part of the 3260

Those figures are for a Turbo diesel and an old 1hz is less.
Was talking to a guy at Ularu who has a 33 ft van and I asked him how it towed in a wind.
Answer Exactly like a block of flats.
Even our van was a handful on one day from Adelaide to Port Augusta on a wet day with a strong side wind all the way.
We were going to buy a 28 ft until a few people said Dont expect to get that in many parks..

Seems a big ask if you are inexperienced and going north at Xmas into the wet is also questionable.


Not being negative just realsitic after buying a car too light for the van we bought
Even on this trip we had to ditch stuff as we were over weight and there is only two of us

Cheers

Hi Again,

I can't speak for everyone else - however we have a 97 TD lancruiser it tows our 23ft caravan just fine - we have had the ball weight ect checked, the kids bikes are on rhino racks on the cruiser. I would NOT BE without my toilet and shower (the girls shower together most nights). We don't have an external BBQ table but wish we did, we do have an annexe and use it when we are staying a week or more in one spot.

We free camp a lot as most CP's will charge anywhere from $4 - $9 extra per night per child.

We carry enough clothes for us and have had to buy new clothes for the kids (we keep feedin em they keep growin) but we donate their old clothes to Vinnies ect.

We have been on the road now for 8mths and not looking back

Cheers

Hi No Worries it is a HUGE exercise and can be stressful. We have a Retreat Daydream its 25ft from drawbar to spare tyre. There has only been ONE occasion where we were knocked back and he pointed us to a CP just up the road that could accommodate us (bear in mind we when we started we went "the wrong way round" Longreach in December ect) we are now chasing summer and are currently in Kununurra and there are a quite a few people here so we needed to book ahead.

Also it just depends on driver ability - Matt has had many years trucking experience so if we can't get a drive thru site its not an issue for him. We find with CV mirrors get the truck ones they are the best.

Ask as many Q's as you want I will try answer the ones I can. Its truly a great experience and our two girls are LOVING life on the road - we ask them if they want to stop and settle and they scream NO!!!!! WAY!!!! not sure how we are going to settle down again.................mmmmm perhaps we will be permant Gypsie's

Cheers
Caz

Hi

I have only just come across you're query, and though I might be able to tell you of our experiences as a family travelling with a caravan and 5 kids, all boys 12,10,8 & 5,5. We travelled last year thru vic,sa,nt,wa and nsw pulling a 23 ft van with a 100 landcruiser - we spent about 6 months travelling and had a great time. It took us about 12 months to get organised (we run our own business), and in that time had to purchase both tow vehicle and van. With that wonderful thing called hindsight, we wouldn't tow such a big van again. Although we were very comfortable, (our van had a queen size bed, dbl bunks and toilet shower), we could have made do without the toilet & shower + this adds a lot of weight to a van, with the extra water. With kids you do tend to have a lot of extra gear to carry - originally we had bikes, a boat, scooters, etc - we dumped all of this at a friends place about 1/3 of the way into the trip just to lighten up. The cruiser was a very comfortable vehicle, and towed well, but there was no escaping the fact that a big van will certainly slow you down if you want to have some sort of fuel efficiency. I know having little kids, the thought of not having a loo handy is scary - but if you are going to stay mainly in caravan parks then you will have access to loos and showers anyway - and bonus, you don't have to clean them!!!! In short, we will travel again, prob not for such a long period of time, but we have sold our van, and bought a camper trailer - we also found that with our caravan, we were limited to where we could camp when we did freecamp - v hard to get down near a river with a 23 ft van on behind you!

Hi again Leah,

I revised one of my posts above as I had incorrect figures for the Gross Combined Mass of the Landcruiser.

Two final points:

1. Diesel Landcruisers are approx 100kg heavier than the petrol.(Re your post above)

2. If(when) you sign a contract for the caravan ENSURE that the dealer specifies on the contract the figures for the "Tare" and "GVM" of the van.

They will try to avoid specifying the "Tare" with the argument that (because of your design) they will not have an accurate figure until the van is completed, however any manufacturer should have a goog idea of the likely weight.
Therefore ensure that they specify a Tare weight which will NOT be exceeded.

With these weights you can then accurately ascertain wether the weight of all your "contents" wil fall within the allowance.

As advised above you may need to pay for an increase in the GVM of the van.

Peter