UHF antenna

Hey all,

Apparently I am getting a UHF radio to mount in my car which has no bullbar... I am wondering about what antenna and cable to use.

Its a 5W uniden, now I already have some of the thin cable (RG58) laid out for me (the previous owner was very kind!)... but I want to be sure I get the best signal I can... so i want to know a few things..
I am travelling in all variety of places... I guess most of the time will be flat but often will be hilly...

1) I have no bullbar so I want to mount it forward in the bonnet gutter... Is this a smart move? Should I use ground independant or ground dependant?

2) Do i need to replace the cable?

3) Whats the best way of hooking up the power? Find a spare slot in one of the fuse boxes and run it right from the battery? Hijack the radio or cigerette power?

I think that that just about does it for now.

Cheers,

Gav
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Reply By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 07:13

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 07:13
UHF radios have a very limited range and are usually only used to talk within a convoy. Moving the aerial around a vehicle will not make a lot of difference to your range so my advice is to not to get to carried away and just find a handy and secure spot.

KK
AnswerID: 377457

Follow Up By: GiveItAGoGavo - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:18

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:18
Gday,

Oh no Im not getting carried away at all... but still want to do the right thing since I know nothing about antenna types! Its a 5W radio so its capable of respectable (by UHF standards) range, and I dont want to screw that up by using sub-grade cabling, and/or the wrong antenna type.

In terms of the spot... The bonnet is about best for me I think.. no bullbar, no roofrack, no rear bar.. bonnets about the only spot I can think of!
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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:42

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:42
What I meant was that you can spend lots of dollars for very little return. If the range is only up to 10 km do you really want to spend Heaps more for only 2 km more range ?

KK
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Follow Up By: GiveItAGoGavo - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:45

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:45
Hey KK,

Yep I agree. Not worth stupidly large amounts of money. But I guess the flipside is that its possible to severly negate the benefits of a *high* powered radio (by civilian standards) and I just want to make sure I do my research..


I agree though.. for little gain, its not worth oodles of more money, BUT I still want to use the correct setup for the equipment I have, and when I make another antenna purchase, I want to make sure I get the right stuff and install it properly.
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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:54

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:54
I agree but 5 watt is not high powered at all, that's why non-licensed people are allowed to use them. I would also point out that if you are on dead flat country the horizon is not far away ! If your vehicle is pointing up hill then your signal will tend to be radiated up hill also. In rough country your range is limited even more then on flat country. In other words you are NOT going to get a great range from a UHF 5 watt radio on flat ground and no repeater aerials on the horizon.

KK
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Follow Up By: GiveItAGoGavo - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:57

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:57
I get ya KK. I didnt mean that its high powered, by OUR standards :)

Or by the standards of someone with an ic400-pro and a programming kit I guess :D

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Reply By: Stu & "Bob" - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 07:43

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 07:43
G;day Gav,
I have set mine up so that it takes it's power from the fuse box.

The antenna that I use is an AE409L from GME. This antenna is mounted in the bonnet gutter, and works quite well from there.

The AE409L is ground plane independant, which is what you would be looking for if you were going to mount the antenna anywhere else apart from the roof of your vehicle.

The AE409L comes in a kit ready to use. Included in the kit are;
6db gain antenna
9db gain extension
mounting base and co-ax.

The only thing that you will need to get is a "Z" bracket to mount it in your chosen spot.

HTH


.
AnswerID: 377460

Follow Up By: GiveItAGoGavo - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:28

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:28
Gday.. anywhere except the roof I hsould use ground plane independent??

So I *should* still get reasonable Tx/Rx even behind the vehicle? (assuming the tip of the antenna goes over the roof of course)
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Follow Up By: Stu & "Bob" - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 13:20

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 13:20
G'day Gav,

Well, you can use ground plane independant anywhere really, dunno what I was thinking before (must have had a senior moment lol).

You will get pretty good Tx Rx even behind the vehicle, subject to the limitations of UHF, but should be good for 10KM or so in a convoy type situation.

Mine has been on the guard for around 10 years, and I have had no problems with coverage. Radio is a Sawtron 999 that I bought new in 1985.

Make sure that the antenna has a good earth to the body, so it is not earthing through the co-ax.

This is the antenna I was thinking would suit your purpose.
AE409L antenna

No affiliation etc.. usual disclaimers

My antenna is roughly 15 years old, haven't managed to break it yet.

.
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Follow Up By: GiveItAGoGavo - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 13:34

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 13:34
15 years... cant ask for much more than that!

Im not expecting much more than 10kms I suppose, just didnt want to get a piece of bleep and hook it up wrong (thin cable, wrong antenna type in the wrong position etc) and end up with barely 1 or 2 km because of my own ignorance and stupidity!

That one you linked looks great as a 2 in 1. Probably worth getting a little 3db whip for the hilly stuff as well?

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Stu & "Bob" - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 13:49

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 13:49
I think that you will find that the 6db will be more than adequate, and that you will hardly (if ever) use the 9db extension.

The 6db is a pretty good all-rounder IMO



Regards
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Reply By: Sand Man (SA) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 07:45

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 07:45
Mounting the antenna in the location you mentioned is about the second best spot for the average length UHF antenna, which is around 800mm.

The top of the antenna should be just above the roof line of the vehicle for best reception.

You can buy a stainless steel "Z" mounting bracket with different offsets to suit your vehicle.

The antenna you buy will come with its own length of coaxial cable.

I chose an RFI CD63-71-50 black stainless steel antenna to do the job.

Bill.
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Reply By: Ray - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 08:07

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 08:07
Have you thought about one of those magnetic anntenas on the roof?
AnswerID: 377464

Follow Up By: vk1dx - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 10:24

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 10:24
Just a thought on the magnetic base.

I have one that sits on the back of the bonnet close to the windscreen and in the middle. It is not for UHF as I run other comms transceivers. The beauty is that when not in use I remove it from the bonnet and mount it on the firewall under the bonnet. Out of the way and out of sight. I have had too many jealous rat bags damage antenna bases just for the fun of it.

Yours being for UHF; that would be an excellent location. That's why I use that spot for the other radios I run. I have UHF CB but it has not been used much at all, so it's stuck on the bull bar. The others are more important and as such get the best location.

My bases (I have two of them) will not accept the standard UHC CB antennas, so I cannot suggest where you would get a suitable magnetic antenna mount.

Phil
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Follow Up By: GiveItAGoGavo - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:26

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:26
Gday,

No I dont think I like those. Im sure theyre great, but I like my equipment to be relatively solidly based down... that goes for inside the car too.. I thought of mounting the UHF just anywhere since its a compact unit but Im a bit pedantic when it comes to site selection and mounting... everything must be bolted down!
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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:48

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:48
Maybe you missunderstood me. The radio (which costs in 5 figures range) is bolted down in the car. The biggest antenna that goes with it on the mag mount is about 6 feet long and has a lot more wind loading than any UHF CB antenna. Its quite safe but you must get a good quality mag mount and that will cost.

For the UHF CB I would then suggest getting a gound independant antenna and a Z bracket and put it on the bonnet "gutter". Any 6 or 9 db one will suffice as you wont be talking over long distances or to any satellites.

Enjoy

Phil
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Reply By: Member - Ian H (NSW) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 10:22

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 10:22
The BEST position for the aerial is a non ground independent one in the middle of the roof. (Ref GME info). A mate who travels with us uses a magnetic base one which works a treat. If you mount a ground independent aerial in the bonnet gutter it will work fairly well forwards and to each side but will be affected in performance to the rear because the roof and windscreen are in the way. Check the GME site for best information. Good luck with it.
AnswerID: 377481

Reply By: Member - Doug T (NT) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:12

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:12
I use one of these antenna's mounted on the roof bar , and it works a treat. I have given right and rare conditions talked to and recieved 98Klm up to and over 200Klm .

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Follow Up By: GiveItAGoGavo - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:20

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:20
98/200??? Are you talking about a 5W UHF here? wow...

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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T (NT) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:22

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:22
YES...

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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:47

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:47
Doug,

Were you using that AWAC for a repeater when you got your 98/200 km on a 5 watt UHF radio :-))
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Follow Up By: GiveItAGoGavo - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:48

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:48
That was my first thought! :D
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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T (NT) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:56

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:56
It seems you lot of city folk don't believe me, under certain conditions early in the morning just as the sun rises you will recieve freak radio signals, unlike HF 27Mhz where quite often the signal will bounce of the Ionisphere to give 1000s of Klms range UHF signals can get trapped between 2 different layers , the same as freak TV reception can occur, I can remember just after SA got TV and I was living at Waikerie SA every now and again we would recieve Perth TV , sometimes a good picture but no sound, other times a poor picture with poor sound , Do a little googling around and I'm sure you'll find some info that will increase your brains knowledge...lol

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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 13:07

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 13:07
Doug,

The name of that phenomenon is "ducting"
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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T (NT) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 13:13

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 13:13
Kiwi Kia
Yes , thats right, I couldn't think of the correct wording, I'm busy downloading and naming a manual I downloaded about Airstrips around the SW Pacific .

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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T (NT) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 13:29

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 13:29
GiveItAGoGavo

Here you are mate, this will help explain to some extent some of it.

Tropospheric propagation

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Follow Up By: vk1dx - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 15:55

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 15:55
It's also quite predictable to get short conversations over long distances by using the ionised trail a large airliner leaves behind. Naturally you need a bit of gain to do it. And a bit more power than 5 watts. I used to get contacts with Brisbane, Adelaide and Melbourne when the planes were in between. This was on the UHF and VHF amateur bands. I don't know if they still do it but Sunday mornings was the most popular time.

Just for info.

Phil
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Follow Up By: GiveItAGoGavo - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 18:58

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 18:58
Ooh interesting reading!

Cheers
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Reply By: GiveItAGoGavo - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:25

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:25
Hey everyone,

Thanks for the info!

So am I right in thinking that a ground plane dependent or independent can be used in the bonnet location?

Certainly wont be using the roof so this is the next best spot? :D

This is the aerial pack I was thinking of buying... It comes highly recommended from what I have read.RF900 Explorist


I will be using the standard aerial that came with it for now, but I didnt understand anything about ground dependant/independant etc.

So looks like Ill be getting a Z bracket, and on that note I think I realise why the antenna matters... if its a big one (bigger than 80 or 90 I guess), then there could be alot of swaying around offroad... that could possibly damage the bracket? Or am I not giving the bracket enough credit regarding its strength?

Finally, is it just the ground-plane independant units that use the spring on the bottom? Im not sure I understand why theres a spring there... seems to me when Ive seen them theyre going all over the place far more than I would be comfortable with!
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Follow Up By: Member - Ian H (NSW) - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:34

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:34
Have you looked at the GME site for info? All the answers are there.
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Follow Up By: GiveItAGoGavo - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:37

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 12:37
Sorry Ian, I posted a reply before I read the suggestion to read there.

Going there now. Cheers
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Reply By: GiveItAGoGavo - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 16:06

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 16:06
Well just got the unit, its raining so I wont fit it yet, but its got a 6db non-ground independant (thats what GME say, I say its Ground Dependant)... so apparently I need to make sure I give it a good earth on the chassis...

New antenna will come in the future though thats for sure.
AnswerID: 377530

Follow Up By: Stu & "Bob" - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 22:44

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 22:44
Being ground dependant, I think that you will find that both Tx and Rx will be biased towards the side where the bulk of the vehicle is.
eg. If the antenna is on the RHS of the bonnet gutter, the bulk of the signal and "sweet spot" for Rx will be on the LHS of the vehicle and vice versa.

I had a similar problem years ago when using a 1/4 wave fibrglass whip on the ute headboard. I solved the problem by placing a piece of sheet metal 300 x 300 square under the antenna as an artificial groundplane. Looked a bit odd, but it worked well.


.
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Follow Up By: GiveItAGoGavo - Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 22:47

Tuesday, Aug 04, 2009 at 22:47
yes I thought so... and towards the rear also!

I think it follows that as soon as I can, Ill be buying a ground independant antenna setup... I think its well worth the $100 for an RFI900 Explorist kit, especially since it gives the smaller 3db unit for the hilly stuff...

But for now, this will do I think, I will just have to make do with this bias... having said that, I will mostly be in convoys so even ifits only 1 or 2kms in any direction, shouldnt be too much of a problem... for now!
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