Battery State of Charge data poll.

Submitted: Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 00:15
ThreadID: 72371 Views:6600 Replies:12 FollowUps:39
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Hi folks, if any of you have the time, and have access to a digital multi meter, would you kindly take part in a simple battery voltage test.

The idea of the poll is to see whether cranking batteries are not being charged above the 70% level that is proposed in quite a few articles or is it more like 90+% as I have posted about.

There are 10 basic questions and just answering the first will do, but if you have the time and info available, answers to any or all of the other nine would be very helpful in see just how alternator battery charging works in different vehicles.

The first question will be more accurate the longer the vehicle's motor has been off, preferably 12 or more hours after the motor was last on.

[b]1 ) Once the motor has been off for a few hours, preferably 12 or more, what is the voltage at the cranking battery’s terminals.

2 ) Type of vehicle.

3 ) What make and type of battery ( a model number will do )

4 ) When was the last time the vehicle was driven.

5 ) How long was the last drive

6 ) Is this your day to day drive or a once a week vehicle

7 ) Alternator size

8 ) Is this your tow vehicle or other.[/b]

If you can, the following info would also be of interest.

[b]9 ) What is the voltage at the cranking battery about 1 minute after you first start your vehicle ( cold start )

10 ) With the motor still running, what is the voltage at your cranking battery after a 30 minute drive.[/b]

The last two questions are for gaining a better idea of how different alternator operations. Alternator operation in most vehicles is now controlled by the vehicle’s Engine Management Computer. This independent control not only means that there will be differences in alternator operations between vehicle makes but even between same make and models.

I Had an 03, Mark III Range Rover, first version of the current model. It’s alternator went to 14.3v soon after the motor started and stayed there for as long as the motor was running.

I now have an 08 Mark III Range Rover, the latest version of the current model. The alternator in the 08 RR does not start generating power for about 30 to 50 seconds after the motor is first started and the initial voltage can then be anything from 14.2 to 14.9 volts and does not seem to be influenced by ambient temperatures.

Exactly 30 minutes after the first start, the voltage lowers and can be as low as 13.2v.

So info on how the different alternator operations would be interesting to see.

[b]For anyone trying to get any form of alternator operations info, it is almost impossible to get any data form any of the manufacturers, so your input can be very helpful.[/b]
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Reply By: drivesafe - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 00:19

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 00:19
This is an example of the type of data collected, this is the info from testing Subaru Forester

1 ) Once the motor has been off for a few hours, preferably 12 or more, what is the voltage at the cranking battery’s terminals.
1 ) 12.62v

2 ) Type of vehicle.
2 ) Subaru Forester Sports

3 ) What make and type of battery ( a model number will do )
3 ) Make? Type = 55D32L = 48 A/H Flooded Wet Cell

4 ) When was the last time the vehicle was driven.
4 ) 16 hours

5 ) How long was the last drive
5 ) 25 minutes

6 ) Is this your day to day drive or a once a week vehicle
6 ) Daily drive, average drive time is 45 minutes

7 ) Alternator size
7 ) 110A

8 ) Is this your tow vehicle or other.
8 ) Shopping trolley and to and from work transport

9 ) What is the voltage at the cranking battery about 1 minute after you first start your vehicle ( cold start )
9 ) 14.55v 1 minute after a cold start

10 ) With the motor still running, what is the voltage at your cranking battery after a 30 minute drive.
10 ) 14.32v after a 25 minute drive
AnswerID: 383724

Reply By: Maîneÿ . . .- Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 01:08

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 01:08
Would be interesting to see the same test done on the Auxilliary battery :-)

Maîneÿ . . .
AnswerID: 383726

Follow Up By: drivesafe - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 01:49

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 01:49
Hi Mainey, I’ve posted this poll on a large number of forums and a few of the replies have had info about the auxiliary batteries as well.

Once the poll has had time to get a good few replies, both here and on all the others, I post up the results
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Follow Up By: ob - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 11:24

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 11:24
Hi drivesafe
Excellent post, good info, I don't have time just now to do the full test that you have proposed however I will. Like you I have always wondered about the claims of the inability of any car alternator to fully charge batteries.
My vehicle a HZJ75 Cruiser has just spent 3 weeks sitting idle.

2x 105AH Federal AGM's which normally run an Engle and camp lighting about 18 months old conected in pararell 14.71 volts

2x 5 year old Century N70ZZ wet cell conected in parallel crankers 12.45 volts. I guess they are running clock etc.

Neither have had any charging done in the last 12 months at least except daily drive and then as I said not for the last 3 weeks. I hope this is of some use

Cheers ob
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Reply By: wazzaaaa - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 06:05

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 06:05
Hi Drivesafe, this is my son's car as mine is in the workshop.
Wazzaaaa



1 ) Once the motor has been off for a few hours, preferably 12 or more, what is the voltage at the cranking battery’s terminals.
1 ) 12.68v

2 ) Type of vehicle.
2 ) Mitsubishi Dual Cab 1997

3 ) What make and type of battery ( a model number will do )
3 ) Supercharge Type = SMF57 = 480 cca Flooded Wet Cell

4 ) When was the last time the vehicle was driven.
4 ) 12 hours

5 ) How long was the last drive
5 ) 55 minutes

6 ) Is this your day to day drive or a once a week vehicle
6 ) Daily drive, average drive time is 55 minutes

7 ) Alternator size
7 ) 65A

8 ) Is this your tow vehicle or other.
8 ) Shopping trolley and to and from work transport

9 ) What is the voltage at the cranking battery about 1 minute after you first start your vehicle ( cold start )
9 ) 14.44v 1 minute after a cold start

10 ) With the motor still running, what is the voltage at your cranking battery after a 30 minute drive.
10 ) Not my car sorry
AnswerID: 383732

Follow Up By: wazzaaaa - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 06:09

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 06:09
V6 motor
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Follow Up By: drivesafe - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 07:12

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 07:12
Thanks wassaaaa
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FollowupID: 651433

Follow Up By: wazzaaaa - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 12:46

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 12:46
Battery is two months old.
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Reply By: drivesafe - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 07:58

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 07:58
So far with 20 vehicle’s cranking battery’s stats posted both here and on the other sites, the count is 3 = 70% or less, 3= 80 to 90% and 14 are 90% and better.

These are stats from all different makes of vehicles.

This is starting to show that the myth that no vehicle batteries will charge over 70% is just that, a myth, but lots more posting are coming.
AnswerID: 383739

Follow Up By: Member - Lionel A (WA) - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 08:33

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 08:33
Hi ds, interesting exercise, will gather my gear today and do a test tomorrow morning.

Just a couple of questions:

Does the age of the battery have any relevence ?
Does the ambient temp also play a part ?
The alternator is only 3 years old but I have to tickle the diodes on a cold start which means a quick couple of hits to 2500 rpm to get the voltmeter to swing over to 14.6v. This obviously cant happen untill oil pressure has built up [about a minute]. Will this also have any effect on the readings ?


Cheers.....Lionel.
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Follow Up By: drivesafe - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 09:30

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 09:30
Hi Lionel, any additional info you wish to post with the battery stats is welcome.

As to the temperature, this is not a factor that has to be taken into account with this poll because absolute accuracy is not what is being sort.

The idea is to prove once and for all that statements like your alternator can’t charge the cranking battery ( or any other battery ) over 70% are nothing more than myths and sales hype.

Cheers.
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FollowupID: 651451

Follow Up By: redeye141 - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 17:57

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 17:57
Yep have to agree with the absolute accuracy is not going to be achieved as the average meter is 5% accurate. My 15 year old digital Fluke is now 0.50 volts out at 12 volts. It has been retired.

Unless they are calibrated or very accurate instruments the trial is ,,, well.

Must also state that voltage is not the ultimate measurement for battery charge. The only true measurement is to discharge the battery with a known load for a predetermined time and measure the voltage.

Red eye
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FollowupID: 651534

Reply By: Wayne's 60 - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 11:32

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 11:32
DS,

It will be interesting to see your post on the gathered information.

[b]1 ) Once the motor has been off for a few hours, preferably 12 or more, what is the voltage at the cranking battery’s terminals. MAIN – 12.65v AUX – 12.15v

2 ) Type of vehicle. 80’s Landcruiser N/A Diesel

3 ) What make and type of battery ( a model number will do ) Bosch BN70ZZ4W x 2 connected with dumb solenoid.

4 ) When was the last time the vehicle was driven. 4.30 PM Friday 18th.

5 ) How long was the last drive. 30 minutes

6 ) Is this your day to day drive or a once a week vehicle. Day to day.

7 ) Alternator size. 120 amp

8 ) Is this your tow vehicle or other.[/b] Tow

If you can, the following info would also be of interest.

[b]9 ) What is the voltage at the cranking battery about 1 minute after you first start your vehicle ( cold start ) MAIN - 12.91 AUX – 12.91
Engine turned off and at one minute after one minute run, MAIN - 12.86 AUX - 12.51

10 ) With the motor still running, what is the voltage at your cranking battery after a 30 minute drive.[/b] Not going for a drive ATM, I will post later.

Cheers,
Wayne & Sally.

AnswerID: 383754

Follow Up By: drivesafe - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 11:54

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 11:54
Thanks for the info ob and wayne, and the results so far, with 20 vehicle’s cranking battery’s stats posted on the other sites, the count is 3 = 70% or less, 3= 80 to 90% and 14 are 90% and better.

As more info is compiled, I’ll keep you informed.

Cheers
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FollowupID: 651469

Follow Up By: Wayne's 60 - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 12:56

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 12:56
No problems, and thanks for your reply.

FWIW, we will be on a club trip next week and further information can be gathered on a range of vehicles although we won't be returning until the 4th of October.

Cheers,
Wayne & Sally.
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FollowupID: 651474

Reply By: Sand Man (SA) - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 15:02

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 15:02
1. 12.62v
2. Holden Colorado LT-R Turbo Diesel
3 Furukawa MF 622 CCA - 80Ah
4. Yesterday (approx 15 hours)
5. Around 30 minutes
6. Daily Drive
7. 90 Amp
8. Yes
9. 14.56v
10. Not measured


Bill.
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AnswerID: 383791

Reply By: Member - Gaz@Gove (NT) - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 15:11

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 15:11
Drivesafe, Good topic.


1 ) Once the motor has been off for a few hours, preferably 12 or more, what is the voltage at the cranking battery’s terminals.
12.31

2 ) Type of vehicle.
1999 Landcruiser 105.GXL

3 ) What make and type of battery ( a model number will do )
Exide N70ZZL x2 - in parrallel - smart start disconnected. (Both 2 months old)

4 ) When was the last time the vehicle was driven.
Thursday 0900 NT time.


5 ) How long was the last drive
18 mins.

6 ) Is this your day to day drive or a once a week vehicle
Once or twice a week.

7 ) Alternator size
100amp

8 ) Is this your tow vehicle or other.
Tow vehicle.

If you can, the following info would also be of interest.

9 ) What is the voltage at the cranking battery about 1 minute after you first start your vehicle ( cold start )
14.31

10 ) With the motor still running, what is the voltage at your cranking battery after a 30 minute drive.[/b]
14.31 after 18 min drive.


Mmmmmmmm, now where do we go next?

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AnswerID: 383793

Reply By: henpecked - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 16:05

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 16:05
G'Day Drivesafe

1) 12 V.

2) 4.2 Patrol 2003

3) NRMA 4704 CCA = 850, RC = 140

4) 48 Hours ago.

5) Perhaps 15 minutes

6) Once a week (but not always)

7) 100Amp

8) Tow Vehicle

9) TBA

10) TBA

Other stuff: Ran vehicle for about 3 mins. Charge V. @ idle = 14. @ 1500 RPM = 14.6

Then approx 40 mins. later with motor running: 11.87V at idle immediately after start.

Because of the infrequent use I have been caught a couple of times with a "flat" battery so have now just set up charger to top-up battery for an hour or so each day if I know the vehicle wont be used for a while.
AnswerID: 383810

Follow Up By: dbish - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 17:18

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 17:18
HI henpecked why not put a 5Watt solar panel on the shed roof to keep battery toped up if you only use the vehicle in frequently. works for my boat battery,& they arnt expensive.
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FollowupID: 651526

Reply By: paulnsw - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 17:30

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 17:30
suggest you folks read the post on caravaners forum

this is a commercial post and is a terrible action
a person getting people do work for personal gain

anybody who knows anything about battery and voltage knows voltage is a useless guide to battery capacity or state of charge

this fraud is trying to get business for his flagging business trying to con people you can fully charge aux battery from vehicle alternator
AnswerID: 383821

Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 18:53

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 18:53
Who cares if it is or not, it is an interesting question/s and I find the outcome/s very interesting too.
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Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 19:55

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 19:55
Paul,
Remember, DS has only asked:
" if any of you have the time and have access to a digital multi meter
would you kindly take part in a *SIMPLE* battery voltage test "
He is only asking for the Voltage at various times etc, not high science is it?

I've read the caravaners forum as you recommended, I see no opportunity at all for any commercial or even any personal gain either there or here either
( stated by a guy with a business degree on the wall - not an opinion )

DS is actually saying you *DON'T NEED* expensive after-market equipment, he is NOT gaining business from the information being posted as the results are proving that the Alternator will adequately charge a 12v battery.

If you believe I'm wrong then I invite you to explain to me, in simple English, with-out getting off track and no personal abuse, how DS will possibly gain any business at all when the results so far are showing the 12v battery is adequately charged by the Alternator alone.

I believe there is nothing commercial about it, and there will be NO personal or even commercial gain to DS, but I guarantee some people reading this thread will be surprised by the results posted by EO 'members' and 'non-members' alike.

Lets keep it honest and NON abusive, if you have any *facts* present them as facts, personal opinions are definitely not facts and therefore are not relevant!

Paul, lets avoid a 12v bleep fight, ask questions if you don't know the correct answer, don't elude towards the negative, I'm sure you will be advised by people with correct factual knowledge, not personal opinions or unsubstantiated rantings.

(just my 2 cents worth & no I'm not putting forward my 12v results, as they emulate the best available here also)

Maîneÿ . . .
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FollowupID: 651559

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 21:05

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 21:05
Hi Mainy
We have not alwaysagreed,BUT in this case I agree 100% with your views
This is an interesting question & will / could put to bed the myth that batts will not charge more than 70% of an alternator.
Often made as a blanket statement with no qualifications on possible differering cases./circumstances.
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FollowupID: 651568

Follow Up By: drivesafe - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 21:14

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 21:14
Thanks for the support folks and keep up the stat postings.

When the different sites get quiet, probably in the wee small hours of Monday morning, I do another compile of what has been posted and I'll put up the results for all to see.

So far there is now more than 50 replies on all the forms.
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Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 21:17

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 21:17
paulnsw replied:
anybody who knows anything about battery and voltage knows voltage is a useless guide to battery capacity or state of charge "

Hi Paul
Are you saying that all the links put out showing battery state of charge by voltage are useless??
What better means do you know of for sealed batterys ?
I agree it does not indicate battery capacity ,what it does represent is the % of that batt's capacity.
A100amphr battery may have lost capacity to where its actually only a 10amphrs bat the battery can still rise to the voltage in the tables showing it as a % of that lower capacity
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FollowupID: 651570

Follow Up By: Member - Matt M (ACT) - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 22:23

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 22:23
Mainey,

I support your call for a rational discussion, no problems there.

You use the term 'adequately charged' to describe the outcome of alternator charging. My question is this, adequate for what? I don't think there can be any doubt that an alternator can 'adequately' charge the cranking battery for its main purpose; cranking the engine. But the vast majority of people who buy these 'expensive' systems do so to improve the charging of auxiliary batteries, not cranking batteries.

I really don't care if my cranking battery maintains 70, 80, 90 or even 100% charge, as long as it starts my car. But I DO care what charge my auxiliary batteries hold. So if Drivesafe succeeds in proving that an alternator will charge over 70%, it is largely irrelevant. BUT if I can fit a system that increases the stored charge by even 10% then THAT makes a difference. 10% represents nearly a day's consumption for me, big difference.

If Drivesafe wants to prove the wide held belief wrong then good on him. But, in the interest of keeping it rational it does not help to add comments like, "Once people are aware of this fact they will no longer be conned by individuals or companies who use this myth as a means to scare unsuspecting potential customers into thinking they have to spend mega-dollars to achieve something their alternator will achieve and actually do better, with out having to spend anywhere near the sums of money these snake oil peddles want them to spend."

Why add that? The discussion then steps over from a rational investigation and shows the sort of personal bias that you (rightly) encourage others to avoid. That sort of statement doesn't help his cause I am afraid.

A much more interesting survey would be to compare cranking batteries with auxiliary batteries along with information on what type of charging system (if any) is used. If voltage is the accepted measure, then I still get a better result out of my auxiliary batteries than I do from my cranker. In which case I am happy to have fallen prey to the 'snake oil peddlers'.

Cheers,

Matt.
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FollowupID: 651579

Follow Up By: oldtrack123 - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 22:39

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 22:39
Hi Matt
I think once the 1st part to determine what can the alternator do,the follow on would be about charging aux batts under various conditions.
.The actual ability of the alternator needs to be established 1st.
I see this as the purpose of the poll.
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FollowupID: 651580

Follow Up By: Member - Matt M (ACT) - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 22:46

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 22:46
Oldtrack,

I think from Drivesafe's comments, he has clearly made up his mind on the second question of charging auxiliaries.

I don't believe that any of his 'snake oil peddlers' actually sell systems to charge cranking batteries, they are aimed at auxiliary batteries.

Kind of defeats his 'rational' approach don't you think if he has already pre-judged even before his results are complete?

Cheers,

Matt.
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FollowupID: 651582

Follow Up By: drivesafe - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 22:49

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 22:49
Hi paulnsw, I agree with what oldtracks has posted.

The accuracy of these measurements is questionable in relations to the capacity of the battery but with out going somewhere and getting a full load test done, voltage measurements has long been the accepted means of governing if a battery is being charged.

And thanks oldtracks, you beat me to Matts answer and same again, I agree with oldtracks reply and is actually what the poll is intended to show.

If it's proven that you can fully charge the cranking battery then there is no reason why you can't fully charge the auxiliary and house batteries too.
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FollowupID: 651583

Follow Up By: Member - Matt M (ACT) - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 23:02

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 23:02
Drivesafe,

Nowhere before have you stated that your poll is designed to show that an alternator will 'fully' charge a battery, only that the 70% theory is, in your own words, B/S.

You are muddying the waters here because even if your poll results show an average alternator charge of 71% then you are right and have proven your point. But, that extra 29% sure would make a difference to auxiliary betteries.

Matt.
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FollowupID: 651586

Follow Up By: drivesafe - Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 23:40

Saturday, Sep 19, 2009 at 23:40
Hi Mat and actually, it’s the other way around, rather than muddy the waters, I have specifically left any reference to auxiliary batteries out of the questionnaire.

From 20 years of hands on experiance, I expect the majority of replies will show their cranking batteries to be at 90% or better, but will just have to wait and see.

Cheers
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FollowupID: 651594

Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 00:34

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 00:34
Let's get this 70% thing straight. Many people attribute this to Collyn Rivers as that he gave the 70% absolute limit. He has at no time stated that an alternator will never charge a cranking battery to a level over 70% As I read his literature the 70% charge figure is a level that is possible for many batteries in a short time and it takes a long time for a standard alternator to achieve more than this. He produced a paper early this year and it commences with these two paragraphs

"Years ago I stated that few vehicle batteries get charged much beyond 70% or so - and explained why. This comment was seized on by journalists and eventually appeared on websites worldwide. Over a decade later it still does.

"But as many writers know to their cost, there can be chasms between what’s intended and what others read into it or miss. Within weeks, people somehow arrived at totally wrong interpretations. What I thought I had clearly written had morphed into ‘Collyn says that car batteries cannot charge beyond 70%’. Or worse still: ‘charging is terminated at 70%’. This then is a further attempt to show what happens."

You can read the whole text by going to this link and clicking on to the link in the first message. If you understand this paper you will see there is a subtle difference to what Collyn is reputed to have said and what he was trying to convey when he first went to print all those years ago.

PeterD
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Follow Up By: drivesafe - Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 06:20

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 06:20
Hi Peter, I like the way Collyn takes the credit for other people’s hard work and to state that it eventually appeared on web sites world wide is pour fantasy.

The original article was written in 1995 by a guy in the USA, and went around the world then. The article was about the state of charge that of cranking batteries found in the average family sedan.

The article was about not being able to charge a cranking battery much beyond 70% in a family sedan, in the middle of the North American winter, at night, in rainy weather while trying to get home in slow moving bumper to bumper traffic.

The likelihood of a battery getting charged much over 70% with the headlights and windscreen wipers on, the air conditioning and heater up full and the sound system playing, and all this on while moving slowly through bumper to bumper traffic.

Not only was the article written way before Collyn ever came up with his misleading quote, it has absolutely nothing to do with the way we use our vehicles.

Furthermore as more and more people submit their battery charge stats, it’s becoming very clear that the 70% is a myth that is going to be put to bed once and for all.
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FollowupID: 651601

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 06:57

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 06:57
"You can read the whole text by going to this link and clicking on to the link in the first message."

- the link only works if you're a member of the CANDM forum.
.
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FollowupID: 651603

Follow Up By: Member - Matt M (ACT) - Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 08:01

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 08:01
So Drivesafe,

If you have specifically left out any reference to auxiliary batteries, why then mount a crusade against the sellers of systems designed to charge auxiliary systems?

Matt.
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FollowupID: 651612

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 08:07

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 08:07
"why then mount a crusade against the sellers of systems designed to charge auxiliary systems? "

You don't understand. There is no crusade against systems designed to charge auxiliary systems.

The "Alternators can never charge a battery above 70%" myths are perpetuated by people selling better Alternator controllers - for starting OR auxiliary batteries.
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FollowupID: 651613

Follow Up By: drivesafe - Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 08:36

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 08:36
Matt, if these seller were honest in the advertising and about how well these devices actually work, I and others would not have to alert unsuspecting people that, in most cases, they don’t need to spend a fortune on devices and set ups that will actually NOT work as well as their alternator.

Furthermore, I have heard that in the not too distant future, hopefully before years end, there are two articles about to be published that dispel the use of these wonder devices and set ups and show clearly that an alternator can easily do a better job of charging auxiliary and house batteries.

These two articles are being written by electrical engineers, not jurnos.
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FollowupID: 651615

Follow Up By: Member - Matt M (ACT) - Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 08:38

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 08:38
Mike,

Can I suggest that you read Drivesafe's contributions on the Caravan forum first. Please come back and (honestly) tell me if you don't think that this language reeks of a crusade:

"So I’m actually posting a community service by running the poll."

"conned by individuals or companies who use this myth as a means to scare unsuspecting potential customers"

"spend mega-dollars"

"with out having to spend anywhere near the sums of money these snake oil peddles want them to spend."

Drivesafe tells me that his poll has nothing to do with systems designed to charge auxiliary batteries, so help me out and tell me which snake oil peddlers he is taking aim at?

I have one of the systems he dislikes. NOWHERE in any of the literature, technical specs, or installation instructions does it tell me I can use it to enhance the charging of the cranking battery. It is designed to assist charging of the auxiliary/house battery.

So help me out, tell me which systems do this? Perhaps I misunderstand the direction of Drivesafe's ire.

Matt.
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FollowupID: 651616

Follow Up By: drivesafe - Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 09:25

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 09:25
So the facts are that I am running a crusade because I’m fed up with people and companies that deliberately set out to mislead potential customers so that these same unsuspecting potential customers will be tricked into buying things they just don’t need, then I’m running a crusade.

Now how about the nature of your posts, You have bought one of these wonder products but because I’m trying to bring back some honesty into this field, according to you, thats a NO NO.

Being as most of the replies to the poll clearly show that their alternators are fully charging their batteries,my “crusade” is working.
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FollowupID: 651620

Follow Up By: Member - Matt M (ACT) - Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 09:38

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 09:38
Drivesafe,

Thanks for the reply. I am just confused at exactly what you think your poll will achieve.

If you want to protect us all from these shysters (some of whom are ExplorOz advertisers BTW) then how about a poll that can really prove that there are NO benefits from these types of products.

To do this you would need to identify for AUXILIARY batteries:

1. State of charge achieved (alternator vs smart chargers),
2. Time taken to re-charge depleted batteries (are they any quicker?)
3. Any advantages in terms of battery life and longevity,
4. Other perceived advantages (battery monitoring, cranking battery protection, management of fridges while charging, ability to accept solar input, etc).

Now if you can devise a poll that shows some reliable data around those issues, then I would be very happy to participate and interested in the results. If your poll showed there are no advantages based on those criteria, then I would be happy to take the issue up with my particular snake oil salesman.

Matt.
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FollowupID: 651621

Follow Up By: drivesafe - Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 09:52

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 09:52
Matt, I have never stated there is no benefit to using these devices, what I have continually posted is that MOST people will not get a benefit from these devices and set ups.

I would also point out I am also referring to inverter/battery charger set ups, not just DC to DC step-ups.

Again, if the sellers of these products did so honestly, people could workout from their own needs as to whether these set ups will be a benefit or will they actually reduce the charge potential of their respective set ups.

The poll is to let people know, based on independent replies, that the info they have been getting is misleading, and they can then make a more correct and accurate assessment of their own set up.
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FollowupID: 651622

Follow Up By: Member - Matt M (ACT) - Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 10:40

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 10:40
Well, snake oil is snake oil. A euphamism for a completely worthless product sold under the guise of something that is useful. So if you use that term (and you did) then you are suggesting they are worthless.

What about the time taken to re charge a depleted battery? Is that not a benefit? Now I can't say with any scientific rigour that these products actually do charge faster, but your poll certainly doesn't set out to prove this one way or the other. Yet you appear to have pre-judged these products and lumped them under your one biased umbrella.

You switch between aiming to prove that an alternator can charge a battery to better than 70% and proving that an alternator can 'fully' charge a battery. Which is it? My simple maths would indicate a 30% difference in those two aims. You would need to help us out and define what you mean by fully charged. I would assume that to mean at, or very close to, 100%. Interested to see if your poll results provide an average return that is at, or very close to, 100%.

BTW, just ran the multimeter over my car having sat idle for 20 hours after a two hour drive. Cranking battery at 12.53, auxiliary at 13.00.

Good luck with it, and I am genuinely interested in your results.

Matt.
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FollowupID: 651630

Follow Up By: Maîneÿ . . .- Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 14:22

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 14:22
Matt,
You say: “I am just confused at exactly what you think the poll will achieve”

Drivesafe stated:
“ The idea of the poll is to see whether *CRANKING* batteries are not being charged above the 70% level ”

If you go back to the very start of this thread you will see I was the first person to use the term "Auxiliary battery" N0T Drivesafe, as he (so far) is only talking about the CRANKING battery - not the Auxiliary battery, 3rd party charging devices or ways of maintaining the Aux fully charged.

The battery charge information requested (so far) is only relevant to Cranking batteries.
“So far with 20 vehicle’s *cranking* battery’s stats posted both here and on the other sites, the count is 3 = 70% or less, 3= 80 to 90% and 14 are 90% and better”

There has been no reference (by DS to date) to using third party charging devices or the voltage of the Auxiliary battery, as the Voltage requests are only relevant to the Vehicle Alternator charging the Cranking battery.

I think people are reading far too much into this thread and are looking for any reason, logical or not, to believe the Cranking battery can’t be charged 100% as we have led to believe on many web sites that do sell the 'devices' and require you to believe the Alternator can't charge the Aux battery to a satisfactory level.

The Voltage results posted clearly shows the 70% charge theory is thoroughly flawed.

Maîneÿ . . .
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FollowupID: 651654

Follow Up By: Member - Norm C (QLD) - Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 16:48

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 16:48
Give it a break Matt.
I've not always agreed with Drivesafe back when he was a regular poster here. I mostly disagreed with his manner. But everywhere he posts (that I know of), he is always Drivesafe and he does not push his business (or even mention it) unless he is goaded into it. (By the way, I am Norm C on every forum I post on).

I read the Caravanners Forum thread before I saw this one, and frankly I was appalled. I chose not to respond there due to the vitriol on the thread. Although Drivesafe has used some emotive language (as is his way), he has asked a simple question on a topic that is of great interest to most who frequent these forums. I am interested in his results - clearly others are as well. We are all big enough and (mostly) smart enough to put our own interpretation on them and use them (or not) when known.

You have had you say on his 'commercial interests' here, and possibly on Caravanner's Forum under a different name. Now might be a time to leave it alone and let the topic run. Once the results are in, have another go on interpretation in you have something to offer.

Norm C
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FollowupID: 651681

Follow Up By: Member - Matt M (ACT) - Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 17:07

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 17:07
Thank you Norm,

Please note that I have NEVER raised Drivesafe's commercial interests as an issue. If you can find where I have impuned Drivesafe in such a manner, please let me know where, and I will be very happy to write a retraction along with a full apology.

I very deliberately stay away from such assertions because I do not have shred of evidence to suggest that is the case. Please also note that I DO NOT post on other forums under different names. I have never posted on the caravanners forum, and likely never will. Please note also that I am happy to use my name here in exactly the same way you do.

Yes he has asked a simple question, but he has also seen fit to badmouth other suppliers of products, something I would not do without some strong supporting evidence.

I will bow to your request to shut up, but frankly I find your assertions about behaviour I have not engaged in at all, quite offensive.

Matt.
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FollowupID: 651682

Follow Up By: Member - Norm C (QLD) - Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 17:41

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 17:41
Sorry Matt. You are right in that you did not raise the 'commercial interest' issue. So much cr@p developing in the thread that I incorrectly attributed that to you.

Your reference to the Caravanner's Forum and your many posts here led me to at least suspect you might be one of those making multiple posts over there too. Sorry again.

I'm far from an apologist for Drivesafe. He does have a way of irritating people at times, but he does at times have some interesting comments to make. He might have 'generically' badmouthed other suppliers, but he has not named any or made any specific statements about how any product does not do as claimed (or how his does).

Anyway, enough said. I've apologised for misquoting you and you have suggested you will let the thread run. I'll bow out too, and hope there is no long term bad feeling between us (certainly not from me).

Norm C
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FollowupID: 651688

Reply By: Member - Peter W (WA) - Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 02:23

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 02:23
1...Main 12.3 Aux 12.4

2...Nissan Terrano II 2.7TDI

3...Besco N70ZZ Aux Delkor DC24

4...36hrs ago

5...70km

6...Day to day

7...70amp

8...Both

9...13.7

10..13.7

It will be interesting to see your results

Peter
AnswerID: 383874

Follow Up By: drivesafe - Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 06:22

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 06:22
Thanks Peter and will be keeping everyone informed.

Cheers
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FollowupID: 651602

Reply By: paulnsw - Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 09:45

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 09:45
Drivesafe the truth is you are attempting to fraudulently peddle the rubbish you make that attempts to charge an auxiliary battery and fails miserably. People have long found out the rubbish you and others fraudulently try and tell people will charge their auxiliary battery properly wont. All your wording proves you are trying to fraudulently convince people to buy the rubbish you make that fails to work as advertised. people have long last wised up to peddlers of snake oil like you and others.

anybody that knows the basics about vehicle alternators knows it is not possible to fully charge an aux battery to a ***full state of charge*** from a standard vehicle alternator

you dont need expensive devices to charge an auxiliary battery correctly. All you need is about $300 worth of gear including wire. that gear price will be saved nearly in the cost of the first battery. secondly it will allow people to spend that second day at a location they may like to without their aux battery going flat and wrecking the battery

all main vehicle batteries today charge to at least 90% and always have done.
the other issue is that anybody who knows the basics about batteries knows that voltage is in no way a guide to a battery state of charge. only under specific conditions is voltage a partial indication of the state of the battery.

drivesafe you are attempting to con people by peddling bad wrong information
AnswerID: 383901

Follow Up By: ModSquad - Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 10:02

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 10:02
Paulnsw and Others,

Until such a time that a RULE is broken, this thread will continue to proceed.

It would be advisable for you not to continue to TROLL in this thread.

Regards

The MODSQUAD
Moderation is just rules

Lifetime Member
My Profile  Send Message

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FollowupID: 651624

Reply By: drivesafe - Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 10:34

Sunday, Sep 20, 2009 at 10:34
Hi folks, I have drifted off subject in a thread or two but will now stick to replying to and answering about the poll.

My thanks to the moderators for allowing the thread to continue and again, folks the poll and just the poll please.

Cheers.
AnswerID: 383912

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