DoubleShufffle/Doubling the Clutch.
Submitted: Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 23:34
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No I'm not talking about the latest dance craze or having two clutches in a vehicle. This gear changing technique may be of assistance to those who learnt to drive in the family
sedan and now find themselves driving a light truck. To achieve a smooth change to a lower gear in preparation to accelerate or as a means of slowing your vehicle practise the following. 1. depress clutch and select neutral in one smooth action. 2. rev the engine, the faster you are going the more revs you will need. 3. in one smooth action depress clutch and engage the lower gear while the motor is still reving. 4. release clutch and accelerate or repeat process to continue slowing down. With practise you will iron out the nose dive or the lurch. You may even experience less chugging and gear box growling. Have fun. Regards, Pauper.
Reply By: Member - Doug T (NT) - Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 23:51
Tuesday, Oct 20, 2009 at 23:51
You want to see some fancy footwork , watch the inset in the top left corner,
.
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Follow Up By: Member - Toyocrusa (NSW) - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 06:40
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 06:40
Hi Doug. I watched that footage as it was telecast from
Bathurst. I can't figure out how the engine revs change when the accelerator pedal does'nt move. Seemed like maybe when he touched the gearlever it dropped the engine revs somehow. Was hoping Cromley would explain it at the time but if he did I missed it. Bob.
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Follow Up By: Member - Lionel A (WA) - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 08:07
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 08:07
Hi Bob, Its called 'toe n heal' where the brake and throttle peddles are operated at the same time.
Most rally drivers use this technique also.
Cheers.....Lionel.
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Follow Up By: MrBitchi (QLD) - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 08:47
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 08:47
Bob, there is a micro switch in the gear lever handle that is connected to the ignition. When they grab the gear lever the spark is cut momentarily to allow the gears to change without being under load.
It still takes a heck of a lot of force to do the change though. Drivers often finish the race with blisters on their hands.
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Follow Up By: Member - Matt M (ACT) - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:44
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:44
Thanks Doug,
I could watch that time and time again with the headset on, just for the sound.
Skilful work. Wonder if I could get better performance out of the 80 series with some better pedal work?
Matt.
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Follow Up By: Member -Signman - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 16:21
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 16:21
The 'Kelly Boys' at
Bathurst !!
Now known around the pits as 'The Mobile Chicane' !!!
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Follow Up By: Member - Toyocrusa (NSW) - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 20:56
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 20:56
Hi Lionel, the heel and toe bit I could follow but if you watch closely there are a number of times where the engine revs change but the acc. pedal doesn't move. As John,(mr bitchi) said,I had a feeling it had something to do with touching the gearlever. Modern technology, phew. Bob
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Follow Up By: Member - Lionel A (WA) - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 22:36
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 22:36
Ahhhh!!! ok Bob.
Puters in the bedroom, watched it early this morning, sound off, while sleeping beauty was doing what she does best.
Experience has taught me to 'let sleeping dogs lay'.....hahaha.
Cheers.....Lionel.
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Reply By: Member - ross m (WA) - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 00:08
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 00:08
Whch light truck requires this technique? The ones I have driven were like normal cars.
That technique is like the one you use on a roadranger gearbox when you are going for your lic
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 18:01
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 18:01
an 80 series with the factory stuffed synchros. I double clutch
mine quite a bit
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Reply By: Travelin OZ - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 00:12
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 00:12
Hey Pauper unless you are driving a 23 speed road
ranger split gear box, you will not need to worry to much, as today's 4wd have synchromesh gear boxes, no need to double clutch.
OHH today's technology.
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Follow Up By: Member - Jack - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 06:53
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 06:53
: )
When my 80 Series Cruiser if cold, I do it changing UP from 1st to second and down from 3rd to second. Once it is warm it is as sweet as ...
Jack
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Reply By: Member - Lionel A (WA) - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 07:59
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 07:59
Brought up on old 'crash boxes' and still D/Clutch as a habit.
Funnily, been told by a couple of mechanics, its still worth doing on modern boxes as it save wear on syncro's.
Cheers.....Lionel.
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Follow Up By: Rockape - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 08:09
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 08:09
Lionel,
Volvo trucks used to have
driver training and they taught operators to flat shift,
saved syncro's and fuel.
Old habits die hard.LOL
Have a good one
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Follow Up By: Horacehighroller - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 08:34
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 08:34
I thought "flat shift" was what V8 supercar drivers do when accellerating - ie. keep the accellerator "flat" to the floor and just "shift" up a gear.
(Their Gearboxes are somehow designed to allow "clutchless" changes when changing up, but not down)
Have I got my terminology wrong?
Peter
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Follow Up By: Rockape - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 09:35
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 09:35
No Peter, the meaning of flat shift has probably changed over the years.
Volvo was about the first to bring in all syncro boxes and they had to get operators to change their ways when using them.
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Follow Up By: Rockape - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:51
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 12:51
Sorry Peter,
my reply didn't really answer your question, flat shifting for a volvo truck syncro box is the same as a modern car, no blipping throttles to rev match or doubling the clutch, just wait for the sycrno's to do the job.
Always remember! Driving a Volvo feels good until your mates see you.
Have a good one
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Reply By: Member - Axle - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 08:37
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 08:37
G/day , Theres a lot out there that change gears without the clutch, HeavyVehicles with the roadranger Boxes, all about the right revs and feel.
Cheers Axle.
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Follow Up By: Member - Doug T (NT) - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 14:28
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 14:28
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Follow Up By: Member - Tonyb (FNQ) - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 16:56
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 16:56
Good thing to learn - When you do your clutch in your car you will be happy you know how to drive without a Clutch - Just start in gear and without a clutch using your revs the whole gear change is still available :-)
No good when you get to town though, you have to catch all the lights.
Cheers Tony
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Follow Up By: Rolly - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 19:12
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 19:12
Anyone who's had a rear engined VW will, at some time or other, snapped a clutch cable.
Learning to start the car in 2nd. gear and clutchless gear changes becomes 2nd. nature after a short while. ;D
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Reply By: Honky - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 09:35
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 09:35
the way the V8 racers change gear it looks like thay are the same as a motor bike.
That is when they change up they just keep clicking down on the gears and the electronics cuts the motor.
When I used to ride large
bore bikes we called it "racing change" just rev the ring out of the bike and just blip the throttle to get it to go into gear without using the clutch.
Couldn't do it changing down though and had to use the clutch and five it a bit of a rev to get it to change down smoothly.
Honky
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Follow Up By: Member - Duncs - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:05
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:05
On bikes I only ever used the clutch when stopping and getting going again.
On the car I practice changing gear without the clutch every now and then and teach my kids the principle.
Many years ago I arrived in
Adelaide on a Friday afternoon. Set up
camp and went for a drive to find somewhere for dinner. After dinner while driving back to
camp the clutch linkage failed. Had I not been able to manage the gearbox without the clutch that would have killed our stay. Instead I drove all weekend without the clutch until I could get the part on Monday morning. The annoying thing was I knew the problem and fixed it in less than 5 min once I had the part.
Anyway, I still practice just in case I ever have a similar problem.
Duncs
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Reply By: Bill Streater Contracting - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:35
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:35
Hi all,
Synchromesh gear boxes were designed to make life easy by only having to press the clutch once to change gear especially in trucks and the like. Saves damage and excessive wear to the components as
well.
The V8 Supercars all run a similar type of g/box as a motor bike ie a constant mesh box in which you move the gear lever one way to change up and the other way to change down as mentioned before. The electronics that they have in the r/cars these days to monitor revs, cut the ignition when gear changing etc etc are more powerful than the computer you are reading this on now.
Changing gears without using the clutch is a useful skill to have but, even with Roadranger and Spicer boxes in the big vehicles, it is not recommended as not very many people have the skill and knowledge to get it right. I have seen the results of buggered gear changes eg twisted counter-shafts, chipped gears and the centres torn out of clutches.
SB
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 11:22
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 11:22
I dont know of any modern car gearboxes (20+ years at least) that are NOT constant mesh?
Constant mesh does not refer to the shift pattern (inline or H), it is the internal setup using all gears permanently meshed with their running partner. They are engaged by a sliding dog locking the gear required to the shaft.
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Reply By: Honky - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 13:49
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 13:49
From Wikapedia:-
A sequential manual transmission (or sequential manual gearbox) is a type of manual transmission used on motorcycles and high-performance cars for auto racing, where gears are selected in order, and direct access to specific gears is not possible.
With traditional manual transmissions, the driver can move from any gear, to any gear, by moving the shifter to the appropriate position. This type of transmission is often referred to as a H-pattern because of the path that the shift lever takes as it selects the various gears. A clutch must be disengaged before the new gear is selected, to disengage the running engine from the transmission, thus stopping all torque transfer. In auto racing, this process is slow and prone to human error; hence the development of the sequential transmission. A true sequential transmission will very often use dog clutch engagement rather than the more usual syncromesh as fitted to a normal H-pattern road car gearbox. Engagement using dogs only requires a very brief interruption of engine torque to complete a shift into any adjacent gear. This allows shifting between gears without the use of the clutch. The clutch would normally be used only for standing starts
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 14:48
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 14:48
it is still a constant mesh gearbox though
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Reply By:- Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 20:07
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 20:07
CRIKEY. Thankyou all for your interesting and informative responses. My definition of a light truck in the context of this thread would be heaviest tray top you could drive legally with a car drivers license. Not everyone drives a modern 4x4 and learning to slow down using gears can save your brakes. May even help you get out of angel gear. What is angel gear you ask. Angel gear is being caught in neutral on a steep decline and you are having trouble selecting the lower gear because your road speed has increased due to brake fade from overheating and you need to use gears to slow down. Regards, Pauper.
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Follow Up By: Madfisher - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 21:42
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 21:42
Replied this would only apply to non synro boxs. Most trucks now run 5, 6 and 8 speed syro boxs. Have been caught in neutral though, probably hit the
gate. Our new Rosa 25
seat bus is auto and down changes as soon as you touch the brake.
Cheers Pete
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Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 20:17
Wednesday, Oct 21, 2009 at 20:17
I bought my first 4wd in 1979 - a 2A LandRover. No synchro on first or second. In the
Sydney peak hour traffic, my wife soon learned how to double shuffle in both directions. Its a good skill.
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Reply By: Member - Shane D (QLD) - Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 at 21:11
Reply By: Off-track - Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 at 22:09
Saturday, Oct 24, 2009 at 22:09
Sounds like someone just got their MR license??
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Reply By: cycadcenter - Sunday, Oct 25, 2009 at 01:31
Sunday, Oct 25, 2009 at 01:31
I remember many years ago wotking around
Moree with a harvesting contractor who had an old Mack, I think it was, with a joey box.
Now there's a skill driving one of those that would test most of the
young ones today.
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