Battery for winch

Hi guys, thinking about buying a tigerzII 12000lb winch and need to know if you are required to have a dual battery setup to cope with the winch load or do they run off of the starter battery alone.
I have a 870cca starting battery and use a redarc battery management solonoid to charge the deep cycle in the camper whilst traveling.
Thanks, Tim
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Reply By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 18:12

Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 18:12
The battery load current depends on the amount of weight you're going to winch.
And for the Ah requirement, multiply by the run time.

Say you're winching your car/truck out of a gully which could take 6 minutes of winch run time and the average current draw during this time could be 100 amps, a total of 10Ah.
Your starter battery should be sufficient for this, provided it's still relatively young and hasn't lost much of its rated capacity yet.
I wouldn't put more than twice this Ah demand on your starter battery though.

What do you intend to winch, and for how long, between recharging?

Best regards, Peter
AnswerID: 406730

Follow Up By: obee1212 - Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 18:26

Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 18:26
the alternator puts out 80 to 100 amps. I would not contemplate running from the battery alone so I would be running from the cranking battery with the engine running. The cranking battery in any case is built to deliver high amperage for reasonably short amount of time. Isn't that why they are rated CCA?

Putting a heavy load on a deep cycle battery I think not a good idea.

Owen
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Follow Up By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 19:13

Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 19:13
Owen,

I blew an alternator on a Paj once by doing just what you suggest.
Fried some diodes in it.
It's ok, for a few seconds, while you jump start another car f.e. but the longer you draw such high current, the hotter the diode plates inside the alternator will get. Maybe if your alternator was exceptionally well built hiqh qual/specc, then yes, but obviously there is a risk, especially under high ambient temperatures.

You're quite right, starter batteries are rated in CCA, which means they're designed to give a high percentage of their Ah capacity within a short time.
Deep cycle batteries cannot give so much of their Ah percentage within the same short period of time.

But using a deep cycle VRLA AGM battery for winching, won't hurt it as long as the cutoff voltage is observed and the maximum current load won't exceed their 3C rating.
They're not rated in CCA, but you can draw hundreds of amps for a few minutes, at above freezing temps, and if the battery is fully charged before you start winching.
You can even use them for occasional cranking.
I've done a youtube on this, to illustrate expected voltage drop on a 100Ah deep cycle battery while cranking: follow this link

Hope this clears everything up.

@ usguys07,

thanks for your route description, would love doing this one day - you're not going to be doing serious terrain by the sounds of it?

Your starter battery will be up to the occasional task I'd say, your' not going to winch your rig up some vertical cliff....

Yes, and take a snatch block along following Kiwi Kia's recommendation, this will essentially half the current draw.

Best regards, Peter
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Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 19:22

Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 19:22
Agree Owen. A winch motor draws much the same current as a starter motor. It's essential that the alternator provide most of the current for the winch. A good cranking battery will provide the remainder for a brief period. A deep cycle battery is not suitable for this sort of use. Depending on the alternator, it might provide 80-100 amps, but many are rated at only 55 amps and will get pretty hot and bothered if called on to deliver that for more than a few minutes.

usguys - suggest look at posts in the last few days where the need for a winch was discussed. Seems many of us carry them, very few ever use them.

HTH

John
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 20:07

Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 20:07
Most winches fitted by reputable company only work when the vehicle is running, hence only connecting to the starter battery.

I would say if your alternator failed during a winch then there was properly an underlining problem.
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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 20:32

Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 20:32
olcoolone - I have never seen that set-up !

Winching a heavy load should really only be done with driving assist (if possible) and in short bursts to avoid over heating the winch. The only long winches that I do is rescuing people bogged near the surf line on beaches where I am often a fair distance from the bogged vehicle. You also need to make sure that the winch rope is being wound onto the drum evenly and not bunched up in one corner.

KK
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Follow Up By: Battery Value Pty Ltd - Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 20:38

Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 20:38
olcoolone,

Well, the 'problem' in my case was an ageing starter battery together with a low rated alternator on a hot day...

If you use both alternator and battery, then the high winch current might get split up 50/50 between the alternator and the battery.
But if the battery's old, then the bulk of the current will come from the alternator after only a few seconds of winching.

Even a new battery will drop to around 11V during high current demand.

Alternators under full load only come down to around 13V, meaning the moment their output voltage is forced below 13V by too much current, they may or may not survive this for very long.

Look at this from another angle:
Alternators may have a rated output power output of 1kW.
If your winch takes in 2kW, and your starter battery isn't up to scratch (either not fully charged or old or both), your alternator will see an overload for which it hasn't been designed.

Best regards, Peter

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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 10:36

Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 10:36
And if you have a bad aux battery you will be drawing excess current through a lower current isolator or
you only have on battery or
you have been camping for a few days and the aux battery is showing 11.5 volts or......

As I said before Peter there must of been an underlining problem and there was.


"Winching a heavy load should really only be done with driving assist (if possible) and in short bursts to avoid over heating the winch."

Agree, this is why it is better to run of the starting battery with the vehicle running.

I have never come across some one who turns there vehicle of before winching.






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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 14:38

Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 14:38
It depends on the capacity of your equipment.
I have a 130 amp alternator that is over temperature protected.
A mechanical 200 amp Redarc solenoid (600 amp peak).
Flooded wet cell starter and deepcycle batteries that I lock together, with an override switch on the Redarc when winching with the motor running.
When winching I feel the winch motor from time to time and if it gets excessively hot – I stop and let it cool down. I have yet to have an electrical problem – though stuffed the cable last time I used it to winch out a couple of trees. A new cable will cost about $600 so will only use it for retrievals in future.

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Follow Up By: Olsen's 4WD Tours and Training - Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 07:55

Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 07:55
Actually, most of us who train people agree that winching should preferably NOT be done with assistance from the vehicle. There are exceptions such as on on flat ground in sand etc Where you have a heavy load and where there is a risk you will either overrun the cable, or shock load the cable by slipping suddenly backwards, the risk of damage to gear and subsequent risk from failure means that assistance is discouraged.

What many people don't know is that -

1. Most winches are not appropriately sized for recovery of a seriously bogged vehicle. Lets take the example of an 8000lb (3636 kg) winch. This capacity by the way is only possible with all the cable out. The capacity drops tremendously with a few layers of rop on the drum. A 3 tonne vehicle on a very steep hill represents about a 4 tonne load (add 1/3) which is greater than the capacity of the winch.

2. The winch duty cycle requires a short run time and a long rest.

A 3 tonne vehicle bogged to the chassis in wet mud represents about a 6 tonne load, so even a 12000lb winch is not big enough with a single line pull.

Just some of my rules for winching are

1. Know the capacity of your equipment and guestimate the load using the information I just supplied above.
2. Know the capacity range of your winch ie all cable out to hardly any cable out.
3. Use a double line pull almost always, unless you have calculated the load is less than the winch capacity. Because a double line pull results in the winch "seeing" half the load, and requires more cable to be off the drum giving greater capacity.

Read the manual and follow the manufacture's recommendations for duty cycle. If you don't know, then use 30 seconds on 90 seconds rest.



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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 08:14

Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 08:14
Rule number 1 - Get out your shovel :-))

In real life you will not get very far on a steep slope unless you use a gentle drive assist.


KK


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Follow Up By: Olsen's 4WD Tours and Training - Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 08:22

Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 08:22
Yes to rule number one. As I said, these are SOME of my rules. Lessen the load as much as possible...and a shovel is your best recovery equipment.

As for real life. After more than 30 years I have plenty of real life experience with winches, and I almost never assist on steep hills. One of my real life experiences includes winching for six hours on the CREB track. With 5 changes of attachment point, winching around corners on the steepest wettest slippery sections. You won't get much steeper and more slippery than the CREB. Assistance in that circumstance would have ended in disaster, and we had only one winch for three vehicles.

So in real life, be real about the risks, and assess them. If you use a double or triple line pull you will lessen the load, and assistance will not be required, thus eliminating one more risk factor.
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 10:50

Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 10:50
A lot of what you said is common sense but the fact that you are a tour operator doesn’t make you an expert on 4WDs and 4WD techniques.

Two years ago I was with a professional tour operator in Kununurra, towards the end of the wet.
He got totally bogged by doing something unnecessarily stupid and then his retrieval gear failed due to the fact that it was underrated to do the job.

He had run his operation for years - but it took a couple of young guys with bit more savy from a nearby station to get him out
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Follow Up By: Olsen's 4WD Tours and Training - Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 11:23

Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 11:23
Dennis

Thanks for you assessment of my knowledge based on your assumption I am simply a tour operator.

I am in fact a qualified workplace trainer with a great deal of experience in winching. I run a business that not only offers tours, but trains mining company personnel, exploration personnel, and private individuals. We train Ambulance officers in basic and advanced 4wd skills including advanced recoveries. I am qualified to deliver the following training and have extensive experience delivering the following training.

- Drive and recover 4WD vehicle. (Mining, recreation, Forestry)
- Drive 4WD vehicle in Difficult Terrain Using Advanced Techniques
- Operate Light vehicle - Coal Surface Operations
and many others.

Your "professional" tour operator may well be professional that is to say he does it for a living. But how long has he been doing it? Was he the business owner or someone employed on the day to run that tour? Was he a trainer? Was he experienced at winching. I see lots of so called professional tour operators doing lots of stupid things that in my 30 years of experience of traveling and working in the bush have taught me not to do.

You are right to claim being a tour operator doesn't make me an expert on driving and recovering a 4wd. My 30 years of experience, my formal qualifications and my qualifications to teach others these skills however does.

Is there more I can learn? Yes and I do every day. Did I say you MUST never assist a winch?- No I did not. What I said was you need to have knowledge and apply that knowledge while assessing all of the risks.

In my experience, a properly setup recovery with a winch rarely requires assistance from the vehicle, and if it does, then that assistance needs to be as Kiwi Kia said, very gentle.

If his winch failed due to being as you say undercapacity, then it simply highlights what I said earlier, he and many very experienced people do not understand the winch has very limited capability in a single line pull. You must know it''s capabilities, and operate within them. generally if you need to assist the winch, this indicates you could probably do with another pulley. Granted it may be easier to just assist, however, if you do, you must assess the risk of doing so and take appropriate precautions.

BTW I have no doubt a couple of young blokes from the bush have more practical sense than some tour operator employees. That is why I run my tours myself, I've worked a great deal in the bush, in 4WD vehicles on properties and in other industries. I've had fencing contracts, worked as a ringer, operated cranes, excavators, trucks, loaders etc etc etc. I've worked underground, in laboratories, on boats, in aquaculture etc etc. I've worked as a war zone freelance photographer and photojournalist.

I think your assessment of my qualifications was perhaps a little hasty.






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Follow Up By: Olsen's 4WD Tours and Training - Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 11:28

Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 11:28
By the way- one of the things the Army teaches you, is there is not such thing as common sense.
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 14:55

Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 14:55
Didn’t realise you were ex Army – I was only giving you a bit of stick.
I’m ex infantry - 2 RAR Vietnam 1967 and 1968, though it had nothing to do with 4WD’s.
Regards Dennis
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Follow Up By: Olsen's 4WD Tours and Training - Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 15:40

Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 15:40
Some Army Training only, no service. A fraction too young for Vietnam

Well aware of 2 RAR involvement including Operation Coburg and relieving the US 199th.

No worries about giving me stick digger, you had me lurching on the front foot fast.

Now I think we've hijacked this thread long enough but curious to know- Did you come to Townsville in '69 or were you out by then?


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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 16:48

Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 16:48
You’re well informed – that was the TET offensive.
Not Townsville 1969 - I was a Nasho and discharged by mid 1968.

Regards Dennis
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Follow Up By: Olsen's 4WD Tours and Training - Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 17:02

Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 17:02
I had to study such things for OSB.

Well a tip of my hat to you mate.
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Reply By: usguys07 - Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 18:29

Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 18:29
Hi Peter, my wife and I are leaving sydney for cairns and doing the savannah way across to broome. Then we will be comming back to sydney on a diagonal track via the Alice etc. Will be towing an Ultimate camper. Will only need the winch for emergencies as we will be travelling alone.
Tim
AnswerID: 406736

Follow Up By: Batt's - Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 23:30

Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 23:30
Hay Tim what is the tow vehicle? Generally a 9000lb winch will be ample I have two snatch blocks from Supercheap 8ton rating you only need one really $24 on sale I've used them on a patrol up steep rocky terrain their great.Don't forget sometimes you need to go backwards especially in times of urgency I always carry a tirfor .Make sure yoer D-shackles snatch straps etc are all weight rated and bigger than you need if your travelling alone. ps hook your winch to your starter battery dual batt monitors favour the starter to help keep the battery charged don't turn your car off after long periods of winching for a while to get some charge into the batt I've never had or heard of alternators packing it in from using a winch in normal offroading situations must be something with his setup or it war already on it's way out.Sorry bout the long story goodluck
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Follow Up By: usguys07 - Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 19:14

Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 19:14
Hi, I'm running a 4.5ltr GU Patrol with the usual 2inch lift, koni adjustables, Lovells springs etc. We will be doing this trip as light as possible and loading up with a few extra jerrys of petrol for the long hauls between stations. Comming home via the Tanami. Should be fun!
Tim
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Reply By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 18:53

Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 18:53
If you are almost stalling the winch you may be drawing up to 160 amps ! High current of this order could burn out your winch relays so be sure to use a snatch block if pulling a very heavy load. If your vehicle has a hand throttle then keep the engine throttled up well above idle to keep the alternator contributing to the load whilst winching.
If you do not have something to winch off such as a tree or another vehicle (or better still two vehicles as an anchor) then your winch will not really be much use to you.

KK
AnswerID: 406741

Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 20:23

Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 20:23
PS For anyone who is likley to do a fair bit of winching I would strongly suggest that you fit a volt meter that can be viewed from inside the vehicle.

KK
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Follow Up By: Batt's - Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 23:37

Monday, Mar 01, 2010 at 23:37
Hi Kiwi Kia some winches draw up to 400amps can't see the realays burning out at 160amps unless the manufacturer tells you it will
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Follow Up By: Member - Kiwi Kia - Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 07:15

Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 07:15
Hi Batts, Try getting info on the current / duty cycle for winch relays from the manufacturer :-))

I have changed to solid state relays but even those don't have a very high current rating - or should I say that they are suseptable to high temperatures due to passing high currents.
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 14:33

Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 14:33
It depends on the capacity of your equipment.
I have a 130 amp alternator that is over temperature protected.
A mechanical 200 amp Redarc solenoid (600 amp peak).
Flooded wet cell starter and deepcycle batteries that I lock together, with an override switch on the Redarc when winching with the motor running.
When winching I feel the winch motor from time to time and if it gets excessively hot – I stop and let it cool down. I have yet to have an electrical problem – though stuffed the cable last time I used it to winch out a couple of trees. A new cable will cost about $600 so will only use it for retrievals in future.
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Reply By: Member - Duncs - Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 14:18

Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 14:18
Every time someone asks this question we get a large number of responses and it develops into a debate about the technicalities of auto electronics.

I don't get all that technical stuff but this is what I have been doing for some time now. It started with a bunch of problems on my previous car which were caused by accessories having been wired in anywhere the installer could get power. I didn't know what was running off which battery. One auto electrician opened my bonnet and simply said "buy a new car."

When I did buy a new car I adopted this principal. Keep it simple.

When Mr Nissan built the GU he equipped it with an electrical system to meet the vehicles needs. When I added things to the vehicle I added to its electrical capacity by fitting an extra battery which is isolated from the original by a clever electronic thinggy. I run all my accessories off the second battery. Just to keep it simple.

The last auto electrician who looked under the bonnet said. "I wish everyone kept it this simple and tidy."

My previous car killed a battery isolator a year, it usually took a battery or two with it. The GU has the same isolator it had when I bought it and batteries are lasting about 3 to 4 years each.

The winch is connected to the second battery.

My 2c

Duncs
AnswerID: 406876

Follow Up By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 16:54

Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 16:54
With new technology and smart charging systems starting to appear there are some thing you can not do.

For example the current VE Commodore has load sensors in the wiring loom to tell the ECU when to control the charging and for fault detection.

If you wire any higher loads direct to the vehicles battery (dual battery / caravan) you have a good chance of having a flat battery and logging a fault.

If you run a separate earth wire from the battery to the vehicle you have a good chance of over charging the battery or causing the alternator to shut down.

Volvo trucks....if you replace the cabin marker lights with common 10 watt globes instead of the harder to get 5 watt ones, it will bring up a fault code and may cause the vehicle to shut down, the fault code can only be reset by a scan tool.

Poke around with a test light in a CANBUS system and cause thousands of dollars of damage.

Replace a blown HID headlight globe in BMW, Merc, Audi and many more you have to open communications with the ECU or BCM to accept it.

Replace or disconnect the starting battery is some vehicles requirer a scan tool to reset the BCM.

Chrysler Voyager you only can change the battery in a workshop and it takes about 2 to 3 hours.

Replace components with non comparable components or install in the wrong sequence can cause damage.

With every new vehicle being introduced there is more and more protocols, tools and training needed for working on them.

Welcome to the world of new vehicles and smart charging systems and kiss goodby to DIY.



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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 17:36

Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 17:36
Done most of those things and it doesn't apply to the Toyota 70 series V8 diesel.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 20:29

Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 20:29
Yet!
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 20:35

Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 20:35
Wait until the alternator clutch starts to play up in the middle of no where.
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 22:39

Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 22:39
Mate, yours might - but these are real work trucks.
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Follow Up By: olcoolone - Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 23:04

Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 23:04
??
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 23:27

Tuesday, Mar 02, 2010 at 23:27
Doesn't have an alternator clutch
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Follow Up By: Olsen's 4WD Tours and Training - Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 08:30

Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 08:30
You want to try getting to the starter motor of a 70 series V8 diesel, in the middle of the Simpson desert. It is a lot of fun to have to remove the inlet manifold to get to the starter.

As I said to the Toyota Marketing guy. The peak of 4WD technology for Australian conditions and for what I do, was the 1HZ equipped Toyotas and the 4.2 Nissan, it has been down hill ever since.

I believe personally that research, development, manufacture and marketing of Euro 4 emissions compliant vehicles used more energy than it saved. I also believe buyers should have a choice of a vehicle that doesn't comply, even if they have to pay more for it. If I could buy a 4.2 Nissan engine for the rest of my working life, I'd be a happy man.
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Follow Up By: Dennis Ellery - Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 10:44

Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 10:44
Hi Olsen,
A lot of what you said is common sense but the fact that you are a tour operator doesn’t make you an expert on 4WDs and 4WD techniques.

Two years ago I was with a professional tour operator in Kununurra, towards the end of the wet.
He got totally bogged by doing something unnecessarily stupid and then his retrieval gear failed due to the fact that it was underrated to do the job.

Your opinion on the new Toyota’s 70 series V8 performance against the old 1HZ equipped Toyotas and the 4.2 Nissan shows that your mechanical knowledge leaves something to be desired.
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Follow Up By: Olsen's 4WD Tours and Training - Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 11:50

Wednesday, Mar 03, 2010 at 11:50
Re Your opinion on the new Toyota’s 70 series V8 performance against the old 1HZ equipped Toyotas and the 4.2 Nissan shows that your mechanical knowledge leaves something to be desired.

Dennis

I think you need to re-read my post.

I've commented on your assessment of my experience in your copy post above. This post includes the above comment about your assessment of my mechanical knowledge.

I made no assessment or comment of the performance of the new V8 at all, ever.
What I said was they were the peak of the technology when you consider what I do. Let me explain it for you.

On almost every tour, I've ever run, at least one vehicle has a problem. Yes the newer vehicles have fewer on average, but the solution to the problem is often much more complex, more difficult to address, circumvent, or work around, and access issues such as the starter motor under the inlet manifold make it way more difficult if not impossible to do some jobs in the bush.

Even the Toyota Marketing guy agreed the modern vehicles are a downward step for blokes like me who often have to troubleshoot and fix problems in remote areas, but as he said their hands are tied due to Euro 4 and Euro 5 emissions.

Now as to my mechanical knowledge, go ahead and challenge it. I'll leave it to those who've travelled with me to defend my knowledge.

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