Ban free camping???

Off track,
Iwill be interested to see the replys to this post as I for one cannot agree with what has been said .Ihave travelled all over Australia for many years and during the 4 months of the tourist season you would battle to get a spot in a caravan park without booking.The average fees now are well above the $30 per night mark and as far as I am conscerned I free camp whenever I can and if the councils are providing more free camping(I have not experienced this) it would be a very good thing to allow more people to see the country without a strain on the budget.In fact in my experience more and more free camping spots are being closed down which only encourages rip off rates at the caravan parks.Everyone to their own but I will continue to free camp wherever possible and good luck to the developers who buy out the parks as I am sure the c. parks won't be selling at a loss.

Its not a free country - never has been never will be. We have many freedoms
- more than alot of countries but less than others
but were not a free country, dont confuse freedoms with free

It's unorstrayan to ban free camping surely.

Anyway, if you want people to avoid your town go right ahead and remove access for 'freebasers'. Land value is undoubtedly a big issue in many cities and coastal areas though.

So they loose 50 caravan parks a year. Big deal!
What about all the businesses closing every day that get no government assistance at all & nor should they. It a free market.

Next thing you know they wil ban drink fountains because the poor bottled water companies are going broke!

i have found c/van parks refusing to give me a site for one night doesnt suit me when i am travelling to a distant destination forced to free camp.

Quote..
"Mr Valli, who charges $28 a night for a powered site and $22 for an unpowered site, said business had dropped dramatically.

"We only have two or three vans in at the moment and it should be more - there's plenty of vans on the road,'' he said."

Some math and a question or two.

Is it two or three? Let's assume two and a half. That's seventy dollars.

We all know what we get for the privilege of staying in a caravan park and have our views on the value but I question the mentality business owners who keep putting the price up when sales and patronage goes down hoping that fewer purchases will pay the bills.

I reluctantly stay at expensive, poor value for money caravan parks on average two or three nights a week. Using Mr. Valli's figures that's about Seventy Dollars a week.

Now it's all about tolerance. There must be a line and personally that line for me is about Fourteen Dollars. By this I mean at that price I would probably be very happy to stay five nights a week in a C/P.

That's amazingly Seventy Dollars.. go figure.

It has often been said.. "Halve the price and triple the patronage"

So Mr. Valli and all your mates; do the math. Here's mine.....

"two or three" would become six or nine. Lets assume seven and a half at Fourteen dollars a night would be One hundred and five dollars.

I could go on with a pile of percentages but I don't think I would be anywhere near the actual figures.. Because I feel very confident in saying that if the price for a nights stay in a C/P was nearer to the value received say Ten Dollars a night the C/P's would be near to capacity.

I've just spent 3 months travelling up the centre and down the west coast. We always stayed in caravan parks and at times finding accommodation in caravan parks was problematical.

In my opinion most parks that close down are doing so because there are too many parks for the passing trade in that locality, the area is not attracting tourists, or the place is not up to expected standards.

Caravan parks should be like any other business, competitive, so if they aren't getting the customers then they need to assess their business plans and charge rates to try and attract more customers. Banning free camps won't resolve anything, in fact it will probably drive travellers to areas where free camping is permitted thereby making the whole community feel the effects of the loss of trade.

WBS

Just recently stayed at park up here in far north Qld as couldn't find free campin close to a location and was shocked at the rates... The going rates up here are about $28 to $30 a night for two plus additional fee per person after that, all for an UNPOWERED SITE..... $30 a night to sleep in the paddock and use thier shower and toilet, glad i didn't have the whole family with me as it would've cost a bit... Any way such is life

We use caravan parks occasionally with our CT, and I get annoyed at the attitude of some of the parks that say they only have powered sites.

I tell them I don't need power, and in general I don't even carry a power cord.
I don't know why they refuse to just charge a smaller fee for powered site if you don't want power, they just say I have to pay for a powered site and that is it.

In defence of the parks on another point, I know how much my council rates, water rates and electricity costs have gone up, so I guess they have got to put fees up to cover these costs.
There are a lot of parks now with quite well equipped camp kitchens, so a lot of people use those facilities instead of cooking by the CT or near the tent. Use their gas instead of ours. These are free to use, so that is something that is built into the fees.
There are lots of people who have no idea how to reverse their big caravan into a site, and there is a demand for drive through sites to overcome this problem.
That of course means less sites in the park to cater for the drive throughs.
Many more large vans on the road now too, so, again less sites in some of the parks.
Less sites means less chance of covering rising costs.

I am amazed that very few Caravan Parks and even Motels do not have water saver shower heads on the showers, so goodness knows what their water bills would be like. Not to mention the waste of water.

I have noticed that there are a lot more cabins in the caravan parks now, and have been told that is where their market is.
So, I guess the next lot of complaints will be from the Motel operators complaining about the caravan parks taking their business.

I am not involved in Caravan Parks, but would not like the lifestyle they have, just about 15 hours a day, 7 days a week for a lot of them.
We stayed at a Caravan Park in Roxby Downs last week, and was amazed that they only open 9 - 12 Sunday mornings. Office closed Sunday afternoon. Never struck anything like that before.
Dave

I think the issue being raised here is that on one hand councils are charging park operator’s rates, and other government charges, and then at the same time setting up areas in town for RV’s, caravans and the like which can be used for free or a nominal fee and in direct competition to the van parks. Park owners, having invested money into a local business, might be entitled to feel a little ‘jibbed’ by Council actions in this regard.

But the long-term outcome almost looks guaranteed, and that will be the demise of Caravan Parks.

Many will say that is fine due to the price they charge, but without caravan parks to take the ‘slack’ we will eventually run out of ‘free’ camping. I’m sure there will be limitations as to how much land can be provided to this use and I doubt councils are going to provide facilities to the masses for nothing, forever.

An important consideration for those living in these towns and communities is the fact it will be them subsidising the cost of RV’ers, via council rates, staying in their towns for nothing. Who’d be happy with that?

Okay, an argument can be made that RV’ers will spend money in town, but not every town, and that only goes to those providing the services, the local shop-keeper or fuel outlet, not every resident. And for the RV’ers, eventually councils will need to police the ‘overnight’ only rule, so what happens when you want to stay longer and there is no caravan park to stay at?

I'm not sure that the demise of the local caravan park is in the interests of those travelling this great country.

But that’s progress, or is it?

Cheers, The Landy

I will have to get a comment from the bloke who runs the Caravan park in Chinchilla ;)

He loves the fact that there is 2 free camps within 20km of Chinchilla. (Archers Crossing and The Chinchilla Weir).

He prefers people to free camp and stay longer in the region but spend 1-2 nights in his Caravan Park (to recharge batteries, do washing etc) and then go back to free camping. The longer they stay in the region the more $$$$$ are spent in the region.

I see a lot of caravan parks becomming Cabin Parks and moving away from catering for Caravans etc.


Cheers Kev

Gidday

As any of you who have travelled through the South West of WA would know, it is not the availability of free camping that is putting the caravan parks out of business but the propery developers. All those beachfront caravan parks are sitting on valuable land. There have been several big parks in the Busselton-Dunsborough area that have been lost to housing in the last decade and even those that are left are booked the year ahead for holiday times. There has been a bit of a push here within the caravan industry for some sort of government help to create some more parks but I am not sure what has come of it. The problem is that even if somebody can find a site, get around the planning regs to have it approved they must then raise the finance to build it. those ablution blocks aren't cheap and i would suspect that the business plan would not stack up. As much as some might dislike caravan parks they are part of the system that travelers use ... sort of a necessary evil.

Cheers Rocco

Just further to my earlier post...

I had a look to see if there was any ‘industry’ comment on the issue and found the following article which provides some perspective from a Park Owners point of view.

No such thing as free camping


Cheers, The Landy

Gday,

Bit of an awkward one I reckon.....
It would be pretty hard if the same council you pay rates to was also taking your business away.
I can understand the council opening up some extra camping areas if the caravan park isn't suitable or cant cope but not in direct competition, and doing it for free with rate payers money??????
Sure have a place for overnight stays out of town a bit for those who are just travelling through but....a free campground????
Like someone said....stay at the hotels, have a meal and a beer and its a win for your pocket and the town.

Cheers

FORBES HAS 4 CARAVAN PARKS!!!! Der!! You think this may be a problem in itself?? What if it was 4 takeaway food shops or 4 hardware stores. These are private enterprises and the market will dictate the number required. Why do these park operators think they are special? Some are run down dumps that shouldn't be able to operate, they are happy to take the money but don't upgrade their amenities.. The good ones thrive by word of mouth and the crook ones should have a look at the state of their amenities and either upgrade or sell of the land. Having said that, most of the parks are sitting on prime land and it was probably a long term plan to sell the land for their retirement anyway!! Michael

I am just reading an article by Gil Schott
Gil's article

A lot of common sense here, and i love his analogy about fishing and the fish and chips shop.

For those of us in business, it is up to us to be competitive and market to our potential clientèle, not whinge because they walk past our shop to the next shop or the town picnic area (hypothetical case).

Motherhen

as a single traveller who would like too use unpowered sites at caravan parkes ;have too pay the rate for 2 people ;the caravan parkes charge extra for a third person but no discount if staying there by myself ;thats what i call a rippoff ;roll on free camping ; please note the caravan park at cooper pedy has a single and a double rate ; i stay there instead of free camping ; do not mind paying bye barry

I agree the costs for the operator is governed by their expense's but for us to camp in our camper trailer with three children off peak per night
Inland Powered 44 un-powered 38
Coast Powered 52 un-powered 47

Sharon

I live near a town that has a lake, I often see freeloaders camping there for nicks.

Be it vaners , motor homes or backpacker vans they are there every morning by the dozen.

I also see the same people move on the next day at sunrise and empty their toilet at the FREE dump station, these ( ) insert whatever, set up after 6PM and leave before 6AM, without spending a cent in the town.

If you think that is fair then good luck to you, rest assure if you do it in my town, I am a wake at 430 and will drive past you before 5 and I will do wake you/ up.

Free camp if you will and I don't have a problem with it just do it in the bush, don't deprive a small town of a living.

After travelling for a month with my family through South Oz and Victoria in Spetember, I have an appreciation for both sides of the argument.

We stayed in caravan parks, some cheap some not, but it was very expensive.
We chose caravan parks, only for the use of their power for our heater as it was extremely cold. Wife, 5 year and 3 year old need some comfort or they don't enjoy it.

While I have no problem paying for the use of someones facilities, I believe over half of the places we stayed were certainly not value for money.
Purely business orientated.

Now that said, we have stayed in some lovely caravan parks where the operators and or owners have been very accommodating and the services and facilities have been great value for money.

"User pays". No problem with that.

However the flip side is that as many previous posters have said, not everyone wants to, or can afford to pay for a caravan park.
$25-35 per night equals around $175-245 per week.
A lot of towns that sort of money can rent you a 3 bedroom house with an ensuite......

I see no harm in free camps providing a service to these people.
One can only assume they are tax payers who have contibuted to these services anyway. They are also visting attractions, supporting local business and buying fuel. (someone commented on long range tanks etc, but there is always goign to be those folk who are tighter than a fish's 'ears')
As a general rule, I have always seen travellers frequent local pubs, bakeries, shops, service stations, museums, clubs, etc.

Unfortunately while I see the argument for caravan parks having their place, so do free parks.
If you don't like the competition, make your place a better place to stay or sell up and move on...............

Brian

Hi Guys

Speaking from experience A large part of the problem is the lack of vision by past and current councils. Take the Redlands, since the 1970's there have numerous individuals who have tried to get new caravan parks up and running (How many parks for tourists in Wynnum and Redlands). There is a budding tourism trade waiting to explode but the grey nomads and others have to cart their vans over on the ferries at exorbitant prices so they don't bother coming and yet these councils make a half hearted attempts at the tourism industry. Granted there are some towns that aren't interested in the Grey Nomads and that is thre choice. But the towns that embrace them prosper.
Wynnum is a different case as the foreshore is not designed for free camping ut the Redlands could accomodate some.

As for caravan parks they are a business and I have been turned away even if I book ahead so I am not a real fan. Best camping is free camping (not herded in to an organised park) as long as it does not infringe on others outlook or privacy.

Tension Wrench

I have been watching this thread develop but now I have to put in my 2cents worth.

I live just outside of Mission Beach FNQ and go up and down the main street along the foreshore several times a day. Also walk a couple of k's along the beach most afternoons after I finish work. (it's tough but someone has to do it, besides the dogs like a run)

We have 5 caravan parks of various standards and prices as well as a council "pay to stay" camping area.

Tourism is the main economic activity of the town. The regional council however is predominately based on agriculture. Like most councils there is never enough money to do everything with out doubling rates to homeowners.

I am happy to admit that there two sides to the free camping v caravan park issue.
BUT time and time and time and time again we have free campers in the foreshore car parks. SOME then really make an effort to abuse the facilities that are provided for day visitors.
Examples:
The dreaded brown stained paper trail.
Rubbish from their last three days piled into bins to overflowing
Bottles cans etc strewn everywhere.
Black water tanks emptied straight on the ground.
Tyres car parts broken jerry cans just left.
Fire on the beach with bottles food etc thrown in the fire.
Tree branches broken off to light said fires.
Driving on the beach at night.
All night parties with the associated noise

All this is right in town, meters away from from homes.

It is a minority of idiots that are the problem.
But it is a PROBLEM that isn't going to go away. Locals do not like having their town trashed and we do not like having our council spend scarce funds to clean up after them.

So far no one has come up with an answer, but I suspect the answer will be that a moronic few will spoil a good thing for many.

I suspect Mission Beach isn't the only place facing this conundrum.

Free camping ? The subject is complex , I live in a small town of less than 100 population , we have a small council c/van park and the fees are $12 per night for a powered site , no matter if your 1or 6 people on that site , 3rd night is free , ,,, Thing is the council office opens at 9am and closes at 4pm Mon- Fri and is shut over the w/end , ,,
Can honestly say that the ratio of payers to free bludgers is 50-50 , pull in at 3.30 or later during the week and gone by 7.30 in the morning or Fri afternoon and leave early on Monday morning , ,heaps of "free bludgers",, they wander up to the pub , buy 1 or sometimes 2 beers , generally complain about price of a meal and the cost of fuel at their last refill , promise to call into the council office to pay the c/van fee [ all promises ,no substance] and are on their merry way thinking and boasting that they have helped the towns economy by their grand gesture of buying a beer or two while at the same time stealing the council provided toilet paper rolls.

Having recently returned from 15 weeks travelling around the Eastern Half with a van and 3 kids, we've seen both sides of the equation. We used free camps throughout Qld and NT, only stopping in Caravan Parks to use water & power to wash clothes/top up etc.... However, through SA, Vic & NSW we stayed in parks because it was cold and we needed the power for heating.

Both free camps and parks have their place. The big issue for us has been the extra fees charged for kids. Most places were a reasonable enough $28-$30 per night for a powered site, but how do you justify an extra $15 each for the kids in some places. It makes for an expensive stop when instead of $30, you have to pay $75. We use no more power in the van with five instead of two (the same heater, lights, stove etc. whether there's 1 or 10 really), and my kids certainly don't use that much water or toilet paper to justify $15 each.

It's this equation that makes travelling, especially with kids, a case of free camp as much as possible.

Surely there is room for a wide variety of accommodation options to suit different travellers. It seems that many operators of overpriced second (or third rate) CPs see vans going past and blame free camps for their problems. Their vocal lobby group has no hesitation in cramming in more cabins and undermining the local motel owners.
If a business is not doing well it is likely that the remedy lies in the hands of the owner/operator! It is usually not someone else's fault!
Many CPs make the false assumption that those travellers avoiding them could somehow be forced to use their facilities if free camps were abolished. This is nonsense. Just as we drive past motels, luxury resorts and B&Bs we will not stay at overpriced CPs which are becominbg less and less attractive as sites become smaller and cabins proliferate.
Many CPs need to look at their actual market and work out how to attract those customers ie develop a reasonable business plan. eg If they are in a grey nomad tourist area it is no use charging resort prices for very ordinary facilities!
The Peak Hill CP is a successful case in point - thriving in a very small town despite being surrounded by free camps. They deliberatelly target grey nomads, keep charges and facilities to a modest level and provide warm hospitality!
Of course grey nomads spend money in towns, if not every town every day! They eat and drink, buy fuel and visit attractions etc. This helps pay the wages of the locals working in those businesses and the money circulates!
The CP industry also needs to consider the implications of more people owning self contained vans etc and being on the road for longer periods. We certainly don't want to pay for facilities we don't need so unpowered sites at a lower rate etc should be offered. Lynne

A Perspective from a Resident of a popular Tourist Town,

I live in Broome, yeah I know love it or hate it!

We have 5 caravan parks and 6 overflow areas for the peak season.

Admittedly during the peak time this is not enough. However as a rate payer I take humbrage at the following.

1) You go to use the local boat ramp at first light and you can,t park due to all the "Free Campers".

2) You go to your house being constructed and find each evening some joker with a new cruiser and 24" van plugged into your power and water. Does he leave a donation other than whats left in the toilet and bin?

3) You go to have dinner at Cable Beach but you cannot park due to "Free Campers" taking up 2 bays each, 1 for the car and one for their deck chairs and washing line

4) You go for a fitness ride just out of town and have to hold your breath as you pass the truck and tourist info bays. Why ?because someone has left behind their used toilet paper, rotten food waste and beer cans.

I travel alot but dont expect to "Frre camp " in the most ideallic locations.
i also research my destinations and calculate the cost of fuel food and caravan parks. If I cant afford O don't go. Why? Because I don't think the rest of Oz owes me a living

There are obviously places where it is unsuitable or rude to "free camp". There is no excuse for dumping rubbish or leaving any mess wherever you stay.
However councils have the power to fine rubbish dumpers, whether locals or others, and move on campers who ignore 'no camping' signs.
No council ever seems to do this, even those who claim to employ "rangers".
People who feel harassed by inconsiderate campers in their town should demand that the council they pay rates to police the rubbish and camping regulations. Troublemakers would soon get the message! There would be no need for constant expensive patrolling - just some judicious targetting!
One way some councils deal with illegal camping is to provide a reasonable camp site out of town! This, combined with some sensible policing, would solve most problems.Unfortunately most councils just take the easy option by banning everyone and everything, including dogs and camping! And so reasonable people lose out and tourism is not supported. Lynne

I bet day travellers leave as much mess as do the night stop-over people so why is everyone getting stuck in to the night visitors only.

It's pretty simple really, if you don't want visitors in your town, have the council errect signs which say "Visitors Not Welcome" and we'll all stay away. If it's only the Grey Nomads you don't want then specify that on the signs. Really, we don't care a whole lot and we really don't want to be somewhere we aren't welcome.

berny