Fight Against Track Lockouts - Free Our Bush

Submitted: Monday, Jul 23, 2012 at 23:23
ThreadID: 97045 Views:2458 Replies:5 FollowUps:27
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Hiya Guys

Craig and friends have kindly donated there time to organize a site to
protest about tracks that are being locked up at an alarmingly high
rate...Please find a few minutes to support the cause and send a message that we've had enough...It will only take a few minutes of your time to sign the Partition..Its Australia Wide not just N.S.W,So lets band together and send a firm message.

Thankyou in advance..




After much longer than intended the Free Our Bush petition website is now live and receiving signatories.
For those of you familiar with the website concept sorry it has taken
sooo long, few hiccups with different things but thats another story.
Anyway it is now functional and ready for some of you guys to support
the cause. Send links of the website to anybody you think might sign.
Post up the link on any other forums in which you participate.
Have a good read throught the site and PLEASE contribute to the track
closures section. Lets not let the momentum slow down, lets build it
up and get as many signatures and as much interest as we can from ALL
users of our bush.

Towards the top of the home page you can see a reference to a Land
Management Inquiry which has been set up to look at the use of
"public" lands in NSW. The inquiry will accept its final public
submissions on the 3/8/12, less than 2 weeks, so the more signatures
we receive before then the better. Please send the inquiry a separate
private submission to broaden the effect.I will add more info as i get it.

Cheers
Craig
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Reply By: Member - John - Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 07:54

Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 07:54
Craig, Thanks. Hope it has some positive effect on our pollies.................. Nah, it probably won't, but we have to try..............
John and Jan

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Reply By: Barry 2 - Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 10:45

Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 10:45
Craig
Happy to support the cause.
It's time the DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY spoke up so the MINORITY groups can't control everything.
Enjoy your bush activities.

Barry - Southern Cross Dreaming.
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Follow Up By: River Swaggie - Wednesday, Jul 25, 2012 at 15:10

Wednesday, Jul 25, 2012 at 15:10
Thanks Barry a few from this sight (i was a paid member her a couple of years ago and have met some lovely people in that time) have gladly put there name too it...It only takes a couple of minutes...We have too start somewhere and if at the least it creates more open dialogue with relevant authorities before tracks are being closed permanently it will be worth it...

Oh just checked,500 sigs in a couple of days is looking good..



Cheers
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Reply By: GimmeeIsolation - Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:56

Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 12:56
Sadly with the way A LOT of people treat our country leaving rubbish, toilet paper, bashing trees down, making their own new tracks or trashing the current track with attitudes that I hear of " I can do whatever I want, I pay taxes" and a generation of people who have been told nobody can tell you what to do, is it any wonder that it has come to this.
There are even a lot of people on this site that have no qualms and seek advise about buying the cheapest two stroke generator to run in the bush to annoy everybody within a kilometre of their site who go to the bush for solitude and some peace and quiet and to actually have wildlife visible around them.
It is a total disgrace what is happening around our country and it's only going to get worse unfortunately.
I am really sick of seeing so much toilet paper fluttering in the breeze in the middle of nowhere out bush and seeing tinnies and stubbies chucked in their fire pits thinking they will magically disappear.
I am definitely no greenie but to treat out country like some do really irks me, as if you couldn't tell !
Even the Indigenous out woop-woop in the desert are closing tracks because people in 4X4's will not heed signs and have no respect for those who have lived there for many hundreds of years.
We reap what we sow.
AnswerID: 491560

Follow Up By: Hunter Gatherer - Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 14:07

Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 14:07
You make so much sense we agree completely with you, having
been to Cape York and only returning last week We were very disappointed with the rubbish left in garbage bags and toilet paper strewn everywhere , there was so much of the redneck element but also met some very decent people.
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Reply By: Bazooka - Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 13:36

Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 13:36
I have no problem with people expressing their views and expecting their opinions be considered in individual cases where closures appear to be 'unreasonable' - and decisions have been taken with little consultation - but broad brush 'petitions' such as this are downright scary in my opinion. The idea that there is a conspiracy of 'greenies' and local decision makers to block access or that 'tracks are being closed at an alarming rate' is little more than hysteria and rarely stands up to scrutiny.

The fact is that not all 4WDers, campers, fishers, shooters, trailbikers, mountain bikers etc have the same attitude towards looking after the environments they use. Abuse by any ever increasing number of people is what often leads to reviews and access restrictions. Lack of funding for maintenance and 'policing' is another reason why tracks are closed (I don't see any petition for more funds for parks to be able to address these issues). For example 4WDers wanting to test their vehicles and recovery techniques in muddy conditions - little thought to the damage they are doing to the tracks, but hey they had fun and learnt something so what's the problem? Unfortunately these days even the system of registering for keys to locked gates is open to abuse.

As ever the responsible majority pay for the actions of the irresponsible few but putting my name to a general grab-bag of views on unrestricted access is not my idea of good management.

AnswerID: 491563

Follow Up By: River Swaggie - Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 15:15

Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 15:15
" but broad brush 'petitions' such as this are downright scary in my opinion. The idea that there is a conspiracy of 'greenies' and local decision makers to block access or that 'tracks are being closed at an alarming rate' is little more than hysteria and rarely stands up to scrutiny. "


Hiya Bazooka

Ive never heard of anyone being scared about a partition,you either support it or you dont,its that simple.
I would also have to question how much you get out into the High Country,Especially,Dargo,Woods Point,Walhalla,Butcher Country and even Bunyip State Forest....Some tracks that are on the Seasonal Closure list are in fact locked up all year round..

Roothy from 4wdAction has been on about it too...Whether you want to worry about whether its a conspiracy with the Greens or Donald Duck the point is its happening..So if you just want to wait and just see until it affects you and it will be probably too late well that's your choice...Just like the VSI50 rule,many people signed up and it made a difference...

"The fact is that not all 4WDers, campers, fishers, shooters, trailbikers, mountain bikers etc have the same attitude towards looking after the environments they use. Abuse by any ever increasing number of people is what often leads to reviews and access restrictions. Lack of funding for maintenance and 'policing' is another reason why tracks are closed (I don't see any petition for more funds for parks to be able to address these issues). For example 4WDers wanting to test their vehicles and recovery techniques in muddy conditions - little thought to the damage they are doing to the tracks, but hey they had fun and learnt something so what's the problem? "

I totally agree with you there,Ive even spoken to a Parks Ranger up where the Crooked River is at Bull-town (Dargo)...he seems to think its only about 5% of 4wdrivers doing the wrong thing...Well its time to start dobbing in people (take there rego,pictures,video's)..I know its not the Aussie way to dob people in,but there affecting us getting into areas we love and enjoy..

They cannot say they haven't been warned...Skip-worth out of Jamieson was closed due to circle work,Anderson s campground in Walhalla closed to vandalism/circle work..If the Rangers right we can nail 5% of boneheads out there doing wrong....Just recently they vandalised the Mt Terrible Hut....

Ive already written to the Minister about a particular area about all the bleep e paper,bottles and cans in the fires,fiires kept alight over summer and rubbish left etc etc..He stepped up Patrols in the area and also said they can be up for a 5k fine if caught..

Instead of turning a blind eye be proactive, and get the right info so there made accountable...

To those that signed the partition thank-you very much,we need to start from somewhere..

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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 16:10

Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 16:10
"You either support it or you don't".

That's a simplistic view River Swaggie, much like the "petition" I'd suggest. I'd never support any petition which is as simplistic and broad brush as this - especially when it emanates from a source such as 4WDAction. It's scary because it relies on anecdotal, often populist opinion, in lieu of researched fact. If the effect of such a petition was to put pressure on decision makers to keep tracks open regardless of other factors then it's something I'd be happy to sign a petition against. Magazines like 4WDAction are part of the problem in my opinion - one reason I've stopped buying them.

I've looked a little further after reading your thread. This sort of populist trash from Roothy is enough to turn my stomach:

"Right now, with the extreme greens and minority groups holding the balance of power, us ordinary Australians who are too busy paying taxes and bringing up kids to chain ourselves to trees are being fenced out of our own country. Access to great big bits of the bush, our Aussie heritage, is under threat everywhere you look. National Parks are using our money to gate us out. All we want is our Aussie birthright, access to the bush. But if we don't do something about it, we'll loose the best lifestyle on earth."
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Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 17:17

Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 17:17
"Roothy"???........... Nuff said!!!

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: Member - Jack - Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 17:34

Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 17:34
Gotta agree with the Roothy comment.

Jack
The hurrieder I go, the behinder I get. (Lewis Carroll-Alice In Wonderland)

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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 18:14

Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 18:14
So you think National Parks were established to facilitate unfettered 4WD access and activity? Or do you think it your "Aussie brithright" to go wherever, you want whenever you want and do whatever you want? While paying as little as possible of course.
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Follow Up By: Member - nick b - Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 18:37

Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 18:37
Gooday All : Maybe national parks could use the money that they take off us each time we go into the park and send in the rangers to patrol the hot spots .

they do a fairly good job of it in the south of S.A coorong etc

Regards to 4wd action " Roothy " wasn't it them who halted the push to ban bull bars on our 4wds

cheers nick
Cheers Nick b
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Follow Up By: River Swaggie - Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 20:18

Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 20:18
'bazooka"

If you had read your facts right it didn't originate from 4wdrive action at all...Just like the 5% that trash the bush i expected about 5% to have a negative attitude like yourself...It didn't take long...Its a shame you don't put ALL your negativity to try and find a solution...That would be too hard for wouldn't it......Its easy to sit on your ass at your keyboard putting people down while you'll do exactly nothing about it.......Leave it to everyone else while you can only Criticize...


"So you think National Parks were established to facilitate unfettered 4WD access and activity? Or do you think it your "Aussie brithright" to go wherever, you want whenever you want and do whatever you want? While paying as little as possible of course."

Grow up,I use the Forests as the law allows me too,I noticed you did not mention State Forests,Oh i guess you may use them too whenever you want...Do you pay extra to access the Forests ????? or are you going to contradict yourself,i gather the latter...Although on the other hand It doesn't sound to me you get out there at all...Accept on your computer...


"Besides the family and recreational reasons for keeping tracks open it is a seldom publicized fact that Fire Trails across the state are maintained by the 4wder on a constant basis. From the removal of trees that have fallen due to storm damage, the maintenance of bush camp sites, track repair and rubbish removal “days”, the 4wd community is generally positive in its approach to the care of our bush."

Guess you've done none of this too.....


Hiya Nick

Yeah mate your right and the VSI50 rule...But we now know who didn't bother to support it,only criticize as a guess...

"Gooday All : Maybe national parks could use the money that they take off us each time we go into the park and send in the rangers to patrol the hot spots .

they do a fairly good job of it in the south of S.A coorong etc

Regards to 4wd action " Roothy " wasn't it them who halted the push to ban bull bars on our 4wds "
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Follow Up By: splits - Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 21:06

Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 21:06
"Well its time to start dobbing in people (take there rego,pictures,video's)."

There is no need to River Swaggie. 4WD Action has already done it and put them in their magazines for all those in authority to see.
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 22:42

Tuesday, Jul 24, 2012 at 22:42
Just to clarify for you River Swaggie my comment about National Parks and birthright was obviously aimed at Roothy's puerile statement and Jack's apparent agreement with it.

I grew up a long time ago and I've said nothing about 4WD cleanup drives - which have sfa to do with your "partition" (sic). And I don't get your point about me contradicting myself but if you clarify for me I'll be happy to try and explain.

As far as being one of 5% not prepared to put my name to some amorphous 'free our bush' sentiment is concerned : I would hope the numbers might be far higher but if not I'm comfortable being in the minority. In my opinion an open slather "petition" (slogan) is no solution to the issue of track access and closures. The environment and it's protection for everyone's benefit is FAR more important to me than a few closed roads. I don't have any trouble finding places to go off the black top but I prefer the tread lightly/ minimal impact approach.



"Regards to 4wd action Roothy wasn't it them who halted the push to ban bull bars on our 4wds "

More accurately they played a big part in whipping up hysteria. The reality was far different:
Bullbars not being banned

Media Release

Exploroz discussion - one of many
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Follow Up By: River Swaggie - Wednesday, Jul 25, 2012 at 15:32

Wednesday, Jul 25, 2012 at 15:32
Look B you've wasted enough of my time...May i ad your the only one..I haven't read Roothy's site about it so if you've pulled out quotes from it i thought they were your own,so a bit of mix-up i guess...You don't have any trouble going off the black top but prefer to tread lightly you say..Well i was right,you never get out into the bush and are therefore not affected by (as you say it a few closed tracks)...So your commenting on something you haven't any idea about..Parks close them without notice on there web site...So do a five day trip that has to be cut short a day or too because you have to bypass these tracks....If it was lets say a few closed tracks do you honestly think people would jump up and down about it...

You wont even support this site,by being a paid up member so i doubt you'll support anything...



"There is no need to River Swaggie. 4WD Action has already done it and put them in their magazines for all those in authority to see."

Hiya Splits

Not sure what you mean by that statement ??? What issue is it so i can look.. But It will never stop mate,while up at Burgoyne's in late Feb we come across a hut,quite windy and the buggers left the fire going,its happened a lot this year,yet there was a bucket hanging from a tree,obviously too lazy to walk the 50metres to the Mccalister and back to put it out..I even have it on video.....Left to other people once more..


Thanks to all that have taken there time too vote...
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Wednesday, Jul 25, 2012 at 20:03

Wednesday, Jul 25, 2012 at 20:03
Okay gloves off it is then River Swaggie. You presume you know about me and my outdoor activities but you obviously haven't got a clue. I could equally paint you as a mindless 4WDer prone to making broad and often hysterical generalisations about issues of access and road closures who also thinks Parks and forests were set up as his own private playground - but that would be as unfair and childish as your responses have been to date. I think you'd do well to look up what tread lightly means and try incorporating into your 4WD activities.

Tracks are closed temporarily in national parks and state forests for many reasons - the vast majority are legitimate and reasonable if you bother to enquire about the facts instead of shooting from the hip. Unsafe and wet tracks, fire hazard in the area, feral animal shooting, bad weather (high winds bringing down trees), lack of funding (previously mentioned), tree harvesting, possibility of legal action, etc. There is also the bigger picture of trying to reduce the damage/impact of the mindless minority whose actions lead to the restrictions which annoy many of us. Unfortunately there are currently few options open to those responsible for the long term management of parks and forests other than blocking everyone's access. I'm sure they'll be glad to hear any practical alternatives you have.

By the by - what exactly does "Freeing our bush" mean? I think I know, and I don't like the idea one bit (did I say that already?). Leaving the public to determine what is fair and reasonable usage will see massive degradation of environments, facilities and access roads in a few short years.

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Follow Up By: Robin Miller - Thursday, Jul 26, 2012 at 08:38

Thursday, Jul 26, 2012 at 08:38
Thanks for alerting us to that link Swaggie , I hope everyone will sign it.

I accept and understand that all actions by 4wd community are not perfect and neither is the political party I vote for but the bottom line here is that we are increasingly losing access and petitions like this are part of the fightback and need supporting.
Robin Miller

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Follow Up By: Nigel Migraine - Thursday, Jul 26, 2012 at 09:22

Thursday, Jul 26, 2012 at 09:22
“Leaving the public to determine what is fair and reasonable usage will see massive degradation of environments, facilities and access roads in a few short years.”

---

Absolutely! We can’t let the great unwashed make decisions can we, the plebs deciding for themselves what happens in their country, not on ol’ boy!

They need PLUs (people like us) to ensure they follow the correct track, that’s what governments and authority are for and the plebs should just damn well knuckle down and do as they’re told. They have reality TV… what more do they want?

Mate: Mr Bazooka, it’s people with attitudes like yours which scare me.

PS. And don’t pick on his spelling, even if you do it with posh Latin notations.

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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Thursday, Jul 26, 2012 at 16:40

Thursday, Jul 26, 2012 at 16:40
Populist ignorance is no way to manage anything at any time Mr Migraine. There are examples littered through history of how short term thinking and 'popular' views have stuffed up the very things we valued in the first place. It's a classic example of the tragedy of the commons, with the added failure of decision-making based on a narrow set of user views and anecdotes in place of facts.

The one common factor in all these type of pushes is that they are usually based on hearsay, they take next to no account of other factors or opinions, and many of those involved think they are better positioned to make decisions than the people on the ground and in the offices who are required by law to look after the environment and related infrastructure, as well as balance a wide range of user demands. That's not only preposterous, to me it's the height of arrogance.

I'm sure there would be almost universal support for a petition which said something like 'we ask that the interests of 4WDers be considered etc.....' but this idea suggests far more than that from what I can see.

I've read lots of comments on different forums about this and similar issues. The one thing they all have in common is that no-one has an answer on how to stop or curtail the anti-social behaviour which is the major cause for access restrictions and closures in the first place.



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Follow Up By: Nigel Migraine - Friday, Jul 27, 2012 at 17:43

Friday, Jul 27, 2012 at 17:43
"Populist ignorance is no way to manage anything at any time Mr Migraine"

What makes you think individual arrogance is superior?
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Follow Up By: Andrew & Jen - Friday, Jul 27, 2012 at 21:14

Friday, Jul 27, 2012 at 21:14
Hullo Nigel

I have gone back and read this thread from the beginning and can find no reference to "individual arrogance" being "superior".

What I did read in Bazooka's last response was "those involved think they are better positioned to make decisions than the people on the ground and in the offices who are required by law to look after the environment and related infrastructure, as well as balance a wide range of user demands."

I agree - from my perspective, Bazooka is absolutely on the money with that statement.

Cheers
Andrew
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Follow Up By: Marty M - Sunday, Jul 29, 2012 at 14:32

Sunday, Jul 29, 2012 at 14:32
I would like to add my support to Bazooka and others. This sort of petition has a very nasty aspect to it. It is a catch all and those it catches are narrowly selfish in their perspectives, focussing on gratification in the short term. 'Free our Bush' is a cliche designed to draw in the shallow and the thoughtless. It is right wing politics and should be seen for what it is - the individual first at all costs.
Marty.
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Follow Up By: River Swaggie - Thursday, Aug 02, 2012 at 15:25

Thursday, Aug 02, 2012 at 15:25
Hiya Marty

"From the site: OUR National and State Parks are being closed at an alarming rate and its only a matter of time before “your” favorite place has a locked gate blocking the trail."


You are entitled to your views but i believe your a little misguided and i don't say this in a disrespectful way either...The site isn't asking to open the bush for a free all orgy of 4wdrives to get in there and access everything....

See i don't know how much you get out there...Boozooka believes treading lightly is driving on Bitchumen (don't forget they were a track at some point in time)...

What i have noticed that members of this site that i know are regular keen 4wdrivers have signed it.....If it doesn't affect you don't,it may affect your children in the future though....

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Andrew & Jen - Thursday, Aug 02, 2012 at 15:53

Thursday, Aug 02, 2012 at 15:53
Hullo Craig

It would help me to know what in your view a "regular keen 4wdriver" is. What do they do that non-regular and not so keen 4wdrivers don't do? How would I recognise one if I met one in the bush somewhere?

Cheers
Andrew
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Follow Up By: River Swaggie - Thursday, Aug 02, 2012 at 17:41

Thursday, Aug 02, 2012 at 17:41
"FollowupID: 767731 Submitted: Thursday, Aug 02, 2012 at 16:25
River Swaggie posted:"



Andrew its River Swaggie thats posted the message your replying too NOT Craig ssheesh...And if that's the best you can come up with mate,jumbling words about,You and Boozooka deserve one another full stop !


Good-luck.
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Follow Up By: Andrew & Jen - Thursday, Aug 02, 2012 at 18:01

Thursday, Aug 02, 2012 at 18:01
Apologies River Swaggie
BTW, it was a serious question, not having a go at you or anyone else.
Cheers
Andrew
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Follow Up By: Bazooka - Thursday, Aug 02, 2012 at 21:18

Thursday, Aug 02, 2012 at 21:18
It's the cynic in me no doubt but your posts on here give me no confidence that you understand what your petition is actually calling for River Swaggie. That you've had ample opportunity to explain it but failed miserably to do so suggests to me it's little more than a vague feeling that you're losing something - being unfairly locked out of places you shouldn't be. I've already suggested indirectly that you provide evidence, and have a go at giving us a balanced explanation of what is happening "at an alarming rate" (hyperbole is never convincing), why it's unfair, and how the people responsible have erred. Not everyone is as gullible as you might like to think. There is NOTHING specific about this so called petition. It's ridiculously open ended, and that makes it dangerous in my view.

I'm loving that you apparently know all about me but you've got one thing wrong - I've never driven on bitchumen in my life that I'm aware of.

I note you couldn't be bothered looking up what tread lightly means in a 4WD context. Here's but one of many explanations: 4WD Action Tread Lightly
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Reply By: River Swaggie - Wednesday, Jul 25, 2012 at 16:16

Wednesday, Jul 25, 2012 at 16:16
4wd Australia encourage you dob in a hoon also......

Here is the form you can print and put into your glove box...


Dob In A Hoon

SUSTAINABLE FOUR WHEEL DRIVING
ENVIRONMENTAL VANDALISM REPORT
This form should be used when you see environmental vandalism off road in Victoria. People
who cut down trees in camp sites, who do donuts anywhere, who drive in and out of water
crossings or bog holes numerous times to enlarge the hole, who destroy ‘road closed’ signs
or pull out gates.
If you witness this type of behaviour please report it and help us make a difference!
AnswerID: 491652

Follow Up By: Andrew & Jen - Wednesday, Jul 25, 2012 at 21:11

Wednesday, Jul 25, 2012 at 21:11
The police have stated that if you haven't got photographic evidence with embedded time and date, the conviction won't stick.

Now that can be tricky as the perps could well take exception to you taking a photo - so discretion is needed.

An example was the destruction of the hut and loos up on Long Plain where the many families present were intimidated by the group of (drunk) holigans who threatened anyone who looked like they were taking pictures.

Cheers
Andrew
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Follow Up By: River Swaggie - Wednesday, Jul 25, 2012 at 21:24

Wednesday, Jul 25, 2012 at 21:24
Hiya Andrew

I wont personally be intimidated but too the people that are (and there can be many what ifs)...Your advice should be taken into consideration...

Maybe you should email 4wd Australia and explain your concerns...


Cheers
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Follow Up By: get outmore - Thursday, Aug 02, 2012 at 18:49

Thursday, Aug 02, 2012 at 18:49
a photo on its own is useless

you have to be able to prove when and where it was taken and it involves the people you are accusing

if you cant prove each and every point they cannot be convicted beyond resable doubt

for instance if you have a pick of a person and his vehicle shows his number plate pulling donuts

if he claims it was happening on private property and you cant prove it wasnt then no case
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