First Ever Simpson Crossing - The good, the bad and the STUPID!

G'Day Phil,
You've touched on something that was the topic of discussion around the camp fire one night.
These blokes that do the crossing on bikes without support vehicles....how do the radio ahead for dune crossings and how do they hear the call out from others?
I'm assuming and I hope for their sake that I'm right, that they might have a voice activated UHF headset in their helmets.

Fab.

To answer your question. It beats me. In the hills we have had them stopping and resting on the bullbar once. He went mad until I said "smile for the video camera". Dead silence and shot off. But that's the bad side and lets see more of the good.

We were boohoo'ed for going solo before we went but I would do it again any day.

Did you get down to Lone Gum and his mates? How about Big Red did you try it. We didn't. Too many spectators crowding the top. Didn't really need to go that way after all. Don't need to prove anything. It's just a big dune.

What did you think of the "narrow" knolls track? Great pin striping.

Phil

Phil,
I too have a dash mount camera. Just downloading all the avi files as I type. I was also trolling the forum and came across someone in a Freelander who was asking about doing a solo crossing and read the advice. Lots of advice about vehicle prep and recovery gear, no mention of a UHF...!!!! Sad.

The same poster has posted from Uluru saying that he did the crossing. I think I've found my suspect!!!!

Didn't see the lone gum because we stuck to the WAA line. Big Red was a walk in the park. I went up the most left hand track that is part of the three way spur. I did try the next one over which is one of the really tough tracks, but even with F6psi and R8psi, I couldn't get it. It was late in the afternoon (soft sand and loaded up), although I've done that same track other times with less weight really easily.
Knolls track wasn't much thinner than the WAA line in sections. The scraping was minimal.... glad to be in a dehydrated version of a Pajero. The Landcruiser we were with copped it pretty bad though.

Fab.

However - making and listening for UHF calls does not absolve travellers from keeping a proper lookout and assuming someone will be coming the other way.

Some people just rely on radio calls at throw all other precautions to the wind. To assume everyone is using a radio is just downright dangerous.

On meeting half way down a dune - did anyone take the time to get out and ask the Freelander driver to back down - if so what was the response.

On person's ethics or etiquette is not necessarily anothers and if they are not rules then it is safe to assume they will not be followed.

Garry

Garry

I do not recall anyone saying that the radio is the be-all and end-all of it. We just didn't mention the other stuff.

If I met someone when I was half way up a dune I would reverse down also. Heaps easier to reverse down a dune, than down a dune. And it's non confrontational. No big deal. Let them pass, give them a wave, even say hello and then carry on in a good frame of mind and not full of adrenalin after "manning up" and forcing a showdown. Not worth the time of day even thinking about it mate.

Phil

OH for an editor.

The second sentence in the second paragraph should have been: "Heaps easier to reverse down a dune, than reverse up a dune."


Phil

Just curious Fab, you posted this thread on your trip across the Simpson with a heading the good the bad and the stupid.

After reading your story and most of the comments it was plain to see that you gained a fair bit of sympathy in regard to the " Stupid "

This thread was posted at 10 15 am this morning, about an hour later you declared that you have found the culprit, who has posted his own thread on EO about his travel experience across the Simpson.

What I don't understand is at 8 51 this morning you already new about this other persons thread and had already commented on it.

"FollowupID: 787496 Submitted: Tuesday, Apr 23, 2013 at 08:51
Member - Fab72 (Paradise SA) posted:
Hello Stephen and Vesko,
Ah....so you were the lone traveller in the Freelander.
Ok...well not to rain on your parade or anything, we came across you between Poepells Corner and the QAA line. We were in a party of 3 cars led by a 75 series cruiser. Just a bit of desert ediquette for future trips.

1. Ditch that 0.5 watt hand held UHF. Get something better and actually use it. The reason for a lead vehicle to call "Party of 3 travelling from West to East along the French Line" is so you can gauge proximity of where others are and acknowledge their position in relation to yours and avoid a head on. That means actually replying on a radio that can be heard over at least one dune.

2. Speaking of head on.... our lead vehicle was not too pleased about firstly almost wearing you as a bonnet emblem and secondly having to reverse up a dune, back over the crest and back down the otherside to allow you passage when you were only half way up. Common courtesy would have been for you to back down.

3. You mention highway pressures.... I didn't see much bagging out of your tyres. I did see many failed, rutted out attempts along the dunes. I'm sure not all your doing but it does serve as a reminder to lower pressures BEFORE you enter the desert.

Vesko, I understand that as a first timer, it is a steep learning curve. Use this forum and many others like it to prepare yourself better. You'll never prepare yourself fully until you're actually out there doing it....it was my first time too. But some of the silly oversights almost ended your first crossing before it even began. Yes this might seem harsh but I want to use the fact you're getting so many views to educate others. Your Freelander would have been no match for the solid steel bullbar of a 75 series cruiser. Lucky my guy saw you in the nick of time and did a stall stop to narrowly avoid the head on.

Please take my advice, the advice of others and learn by it. Don't be put off by what might seem like harsh criticisim....LEARN....we're all still learning everyday.

Fab. :)

Why did you find it necessary to continue to demean this person by way of opening another thread and then alerting us all to the so called suspect ?? were you afraid that we may have missed your condescending rant towards him by not reading your comment on his thread or were you just having a superior moment.

If you are wondering why I have called your comment a condescending rant, it is because you have crossed the Simpson the same amount of times as he has, ONCE, you gained your info from the same source as he did ( EO )so to me this makes him just as knowledgeable about the crossing of the Simpson desert as you.

I would like to hear Vesko's side of the story if indeed he is the "stupid suspect" as this is not proven yet.

Phil.

Fair call Phil. Yes, let's hear the other parties version of events.

My rant still stands... it is STUPID to not listen in for oncoming traffic.The desert park pass tells you to, it's been mentioned plenty of times on this forum and I hate to say it but it does seem like common sense.

I'm sorry....did I miss something? Where on this thread did I mention Vesko?

Fab.

One other thing Phil....
Yes it was my first time across the Simpson Desert so I don't proclaim to be an expert by any means and I have total respect and admiration for anyone who crosses solo especially on their first ever crossing, if in fact it was Vesko as you point out.

You will also note that I was not the lead vehicle in our convoy. I left this honour to the person with the most experience in the Simpson.

What I find STUPID is that the near miss could have easily ended in a substantial loss for both our lead vehicle and the Freelander, all because some basic protocol was not followed. A damaged vehicle, not to mention an injured driver out in the remote desert is not a situation you want to be part of EVER.

All it takes is for a few crashes and the cronnies will start re-evaluating whether two way traffic is viable or heaven forbid, permisable at all.

Fab.

Hi Phil - not really saying that radio is the be all etc - just making the point that we need to account for all the issues in 4wding and not just rely on one aspect - was a comment not a criticism of the UHF discussion.

I agree about backing down the hill but this did not seem to happen in this case - both parties based on their threads would seem to be reasonable people so I was just interested to know if anyone actually asked the Freelander guy to go back down.

I am certainly not an expert on 4wd etiquette but do try to be as helpful as I can so if resolving an issue is not clear via a bit sign language from the drivers seat or chat on the radio I will get out and havachat - seems to work most of the time.

Cheers

Garry

Sent you a thanks Garry Crossed our wires mate.

Maybe one day I will buy you a beer after all. To hell with the expense.

I am out of this thread. It's starting to become another argument.

Cheers all and play nice.

Phil

I guess my objection to this tread is the way the other person has been portrayed, I have no problem with etiquette in regards to sharing remote locations and appropriate use of equipment on remote tracks.

It seems to me that you had already said your piece and explained your position on his thread earlier than you own post, but then to post this experience again in another thread as if this person was anonymous to you to gain support for your thoughts to me seems like trolling,I have seen many of you posts before and I am curtain that you are not a troll, I was just annoyed at the way this firt time desert traveller was portrayed.

Your post on his thread does read like you are the be all and end all of all desert crossings in your stern advise, yet on your thread it is then learned that you yourself were a first time Simpson traveller.

No Fab you did not mention his name on this thread but you did alerts all to his thread that did have his name/ nic on it, but that is splitting hairs.

Anyway you enjoyed your trip and he enjoyed his, no one was hurt and people reading both threads know a little more on the etiquette to desert driving, now I'm off to have a beer and get the boat ready to go fishing.

Phil

Dear Aussie Traveller,

if any one on this forum should be labelled a troll it would have to be you, instead of seeing a thread for what it is you find in in your worthless manner to make argumentative comment in oh so many threads. To cut and paste a complete reply is ridiculous so who is belittling whom now - unintentional vs. intentional.

I wonder if you would like to be the one who has to inform the Freelanders next of kin that he died on the simpson desert as he didn't have the basic common sense to do some homework and communicate or do his best to let his position known to others.

Get out in the sunshine and stop being the righteous 4ssh0l3!

Hey cookie do you see the irony with your post, you come on here and personally attack me then you have the gall to call me a righteous ass hole.

If you had read the whole thread you would see that most of the people that commented on this thread actually agree with me, that is that Fab 72 was a bit over zealous with his comments to a guy doing what most people on this site could only dream about.

By the way I did see this thread for what it was, it was a thread to demean and embarrass a man who dared to cross the Simpson on his own, this thread is no more than someone being jealous.

The point of me copying and pasting the post from the other thread was to show this thread for exactly what it was, a demeaning jealous rant in order to make Fab feel better about the condescending post he had put up on Vasko's thread.

What this thread shows me is that neither Fab or his mates had the gonads to confront the loan driver out there in the field and teach him the error of his ways, but sit behind a computer as bold as brass and mouths off with ease, this itself proves to me that there are 2 sides to this story.

Now, I going out in the sunshine a going fishing, I guess you will sit behind you computor and call me names again, you have fun with that cookie.

Phil

Phil,
You've crossed the line now between fact and insults.
I'll say it again, at no point in this thread did I mention names.
My last paragraph seems to be the one that has upset you, not many others to be honest to rather than call all out war against me or others who can see the logic, fight your own battles.
Jealousy? Why? I crossed the Simmo, so did the Freelander guy. Let's not stray from the fact that the Freelander guys trip almost came to an abrupt end. Who would be the sorry, jealous one then?
And finally, our lead guy tried to strike up a conversation but was ignored (windows up style) and repeated attempts to contact him via UHF failed too.
I re-read my 3rd paragraph extensively before I posted it, and since and also the one I post on Vasko's thread. Perhaps I'm not putting the same emphasis on certain words or phrases but for the life of me, I can't see much more than facts.

Should I perhaps titled my thread The Good, The Bad and The Ugly (a common phrase) which may then have been interpretted as a person slag on an individual's appearanance.

Try reading my post again in a calm manner, leave all emotion out of it and you'll see, it aint that bad, and neither is the one on Vasko's thread. Seriously..!!!

Fab.

Hey Aussie how's your bait fishing going?

Have read the thread and you're the main protagonist that sticks out like dog's nuts not only on this thread but on most of the threads that I choose to read.

I state again you are a righteous asshole who thinks that what you say goes and that we should bow down to your superiority - well my friend we wont as a lot of people can see you for what you are, a meaningless argumentative troll.

If Fab72 can save 1 person from having a really really bad day out there on the Simpson then I congratulate him for having the Gonads to put his point of view across.

Have a nice day now - don't forget your medications :)

G'Day Joe,
I'm just going through my dash cam video footage now. You can clearly hear over my UHF, our lead car calling "Party of 3 heading west to east along the French line". Then silence. I'm waiting on the flat between dunes.... you see our lead car disappear over the dune with only the very tip of his sand flag visible. Then there's some expletive stuff come over the radio before seeing our lead car reverse back over the dune.

Unfortunatley, the camera doesn't lie. You've hit the nail on the head. The description of the Freelander and it's sole occupant on previous threads match exactly with what we saw.


Fab.

What channel were you on Fab? Maybe he was on a different channel.

Is it really necessary to crucify the person (a relatively newbie) on a public forum - maybe better to speak to the person concerned offline and help him understand the issues instead of bagging him out publically.

Garry

Agree with you 100% Garrycol, surely the proper thing to do would be to sit down and have a chat with him if it offended you enough to bag him on a public forum.

from your comment "Party of 3 heading west to east along the French line", how is he meant to know where in the desert you might be, ground radar required now?. give the bloke a break, he may have just passed 3 heading east.
sounds like a good trip and looking forward to being out there in july.

What do you say then yorkie? Or are you proposing saying nothing.

Phil

i don't know, what do you say. do you answer with "copy party of three, party of one over the dune". maybe your radio has a fault and you do not know it is not transmitting?
you would need to be giving lat/long otherwise your just drive cautiously i would think.

Yorkie...fair comment. Land marks are obviously hard to come by out in the Simpson desert.
UHF does have one distict advantage and that is that with it's line of site limitations, one must assume that any conversation is close by.
We heard convesration plenty of times that required us to wait for up to 15 minutes for the oncoming traffic to pass...better to wait than to come to grief though, simply because we had no visual connection and you don't know exactly how many dunes away they are.

Fab.

No need mate. It works.

Just plain old common sense. "Yorkie heading east. Anyone around?". What about that one. Surely you don't need me to tell you what to say do you. You must be pulling my leg then.

And if your car radio isn't working pull the hand held out of the glove box and use it.

Like I said - just plain old fashion common sense.

Phil

Boobook...
One radio on Channel 10, the other on scan. They were working fine and had plenty of discussion with other parties eg: The camel trekkers and the Dubbo Demons.

Fab.

just curious ... why channel 10 ????

Hello Joe, Mel and the kids,
That's the channel that is specified in the Simpson Desert Park Pass and written on the signs as you enter the Simpson. No other reason that I can think of....I guess they just want to try and get everyone on the same channel.....probably for reasons already outlined on this thread.

I found having one unit on 10 and the other on scan quite helpful.

Fab :)

thanks, it took me a bit of reading to actually find the "10" mentioned and I was looking for it as I, to be honest, did not know that, we went to Birdsville 2 years ago and went for a run out to little red, I do not recall passing any signs stating we need a "pass" to proceed any further, I also did NOT see any signs to direct us to switch to "10" and it explains why we had some d#$khead screaming and yelling abuse at us for not using the correct channel, he, I think was leading a group in and was pretty good (in his eyes) and standing up on the dunes directing traffic, yes it was busy as all the race goers were there (LOTS !!!) .....
Yes I did "inform" him we were on 40 and asked him what his problem was other than the effects of spending to much time around tourists and extreme heat :-) ....
So with that in mind yes some people are idiots but also some people don't use uhf's much and simply probably sit on 40 hoping that others do the right thing that is COMMON knowledge and do the same, we have been in all sorts of sand and desert stuff and stick to 40 or scan, why the hell they would pick 10 is beyond me ...
""""" Assumption is the mother of all luckup's """
Cheers Joe

The Desert Parks pass is only needed in South Australia, it's a state government thing.

Hello Joe, Mel n kids,
Mike is right...and so are you.
The desert park pass is a SA gov. thing. $150 per car in fact. You don't need a pass to go to Big Red and from memory it's only once you pass Poepells Corner that you need one. At that stage the advisory signs kick in.

I'm in the same boat as you.... usually I sit on channel 40 where ever I go (except in Adelaide due to the truck driver hating "Pedo" guy - Adelaidians will know what I mean), then it usually just gets kept off.

Joe, your description of the d#$khead and his behaviour is not that far removed of my description of the person illustrating stupid behaviour. (Different elements but unexceptable behaviour nevertheless). Prepare for the onslaught of people telling you your d#$khead "friend" was doing nothing wrong. Oh, and you'll be the arrogant, trolling, needing you teeth knocked out, etc etc.

I for one like to call a spade a spade, I give credit where and when it's due and point out errors when they occur. Yes I try to use catchy phrases in my title line, but that's how to gain an audience. So far to date, I on this thread we have extensively covered the use of sand flags, UHF radios and the importance of reading advisory signs and information contained in the DPP. If I have saved just one EO member from having a head on, then my work is done....bring on the insults.

Fab.

I will go along with fab. The guy was wrong in his whole approach. Maybe a polite approach would have helped.

It isn't the law so it's up to you what you have it on even off if you wish. But that is not helpful considering where you were.Big Red is about 35Kms outside the Simpson. Practically speaking, if you were previously aware of the practice it may have been a good idea to be on scan or even 10. But you were not wrong in being on 40.

In my case on our trip to the Gulf in 2011 we did a side trip from Birdsville to Big Red. I switched over to channel 10 at the start of a detour to do the tyres and put the sand flag on. The detour was well short of Big Red. Coming into the Simpson from the west I switched to ch 10 at the Simpson sign.

When on the open road we don't normally have the radio on at all. Just when we think that it's necessary or helpful for safety etc. Some people like that some don't. Cest la vie.

Phil

OH the irony.

Perhaps a polite approach on Vasco's thread or a politer title to this thread may have gone a long way in stopping the criticism of Fab and the way he told the story.

My response would have been the total opposite to the above had that been the case.

You guys can call me what ever you like, please note at no time did I express a problem with Fabs etiquette to desert driving, I just had a problem with the way he expressed it.

Phil

Phil (Aussie Traveller)

My post wasn't aimed at you personally or even at Fab.

I was just adding my opinion. Stop taking it all personally. It's not worth it mate.

It was in response to Joe's post. If anyone should be upset by my opinion it would the "group leader" that Joe mentioned. Not you or Fab mate. I try very hard not to upset people as you are surely aware.

Phil

Sorry Phil my bad, my response was pointed at the tread as a whole not at you, my last sentence was at all those that chose to personal attack me.

No worries

I have been drawn off into stupid pedantic nit picking irrelevant (that was a mouthful) sub conversations, arguments if you wish, also myself lately and I am a bit sick of it.

It isn't worth it. That was my main thrust to you. Just walk away. Whether you are right or wrong it's not worth it.

I have tried so hard not to offend people that I feel like just pulling the plug on the whole forum scene. However I have met some top people and have been able to learn heaps and get info for trips that I tell myself bugger it, have a cuppa and try again tomorrow. I would be the loser if I closed and deleted my account.

I also put a delete email rule on any emails coming from the thread or particular users so that I do not get drawn in until I am ready.

So back to the house work for me. Have to do something for my wife. After all she keeps me in the style to which I am accustomed. Ain't she wonderful.

Catchya

Phil

so to do some research on my trip in and not using the correct channel it has turned up some interesting things for me ......
and no I am not going to get drawn into all the arguing, ya all sound like parliament question time hahahahah
Anyway it seems you can actually travel right to "Big Red" and NOT be in the so called park, you WONT see any signs and you may well NOT even know about the channel 10 "rule" as I did not, I also have got a new UHF, and only could get an 80 channel even tho I can not see why ever I will need it I can no longer buy a new 40 channel, THAT sux, anyway I whack it on scan and it takes nearly 10 seconds to scan all the 80 channels, now I am of the opinion you could actually completely MISS a call as it could be in between the channel, you go check it, 10 seconds is a LONG time for a short message, so now I am really thinking about how safe it is, I mean you have to look at everything when you drive and equate it to your own safety, you can have all the equipment in the world but keep a few points in mind ...
You are charging down a ONE lane highway......
You are cresting BLIND hills on a one lane highway .....
Your stopping ability is greatly reduced on downhill sand tracks ....
Everyone coming in the opposite direction potentially will be speeding ..... on a ONE LANE highway ...
You HAVE to assume anyone coming at you has no idea you are there ... on a ONE LANE highway ...
You may well be cresting a hill only to find a car broken down just over that hill .........
Transmit and moniter the UHF but DONT rely on it, you could be in the bottom of a hill and the other dude could be at the top and you will not get the signal, if he is charging up a hill and both hands full he may not be able to reply ... and you may be charging up the other side and cant reply and you both meet at the top or just over .....
The UHF now seems to be a bit of a myth, I rely on it for our travels a lot but in the dunes I will now be very careful.
My take of it all is I should ALWAYS try to have the tallest sand flag, yes moniter the UHF but NEVER rely on it as it seems to me that it is not going to help in the way people seem to be expecting and just drive slow, you can only drive as fast as you are capable of stopping, that means if you can see 100m ahead then drive at a speed that allows you to stop in less than half that, remember the other guy needs half of that distance to stop as well ...... and don't get to nasty with other people as they may well have done everything right in there books, and everyone has a different opinion of how it should be done and by the sounds of what I now know the biggest mistake that has happened out at the desert is someone started using channel 10 and convinced others to do the same, and probally foolishly thought it was good as it kept it quite away from other tourists, often happens in remote areas with tour guides, it should have stuck to 40 and any chit chat uses another channel .......
So for me at least I can learn from it ..
And that dude screams at me again about not using channel 10 I will not say a word, I will quitely deck the fugger and gently pour some sand over his face, NON Simpson Desert sand that does NOT require you to be on channel 10 or have a permit and then supa glue his UHF to channel FOURTY and strap him to his roof rack with his bottom in the air and place the pole of the sand flag in his bottom, gently as I am a nice person, and I will get some of them BIG white ants and Gently place them all over his bottom so it shakes and the flag will the wave madly and warn all oncoming traffic and get his boyfriend to drive and his group to follow .......... on channel 40 ..........
Cheers
Joe

Ah Joe,


I couldn't have said it better myself........ and in so few words too!


I think it might be better to stay home in front of the telly watching Pat Callinan.


LOL

Joe for Prime Minister I reckon

Joe,
You've nailed it. Yep, it is pretty full on and not quite as simple as a Sunday drive through the desert.

What you've said about your recon mission out to Big Red is spot on. You'll see no signs and you don't need a pass.

I never persnally knew why people ran two UHFs....I couldn't see the logic. I do now though, and like you said, at 10 seconds for a 1-80 scan, yeah, you could easily miss a transmission. Glad I've stuck with my 40. But I now run 2 UHFs...one on scan, one on 10 for reasons like you stated.

The only other thing from your post, is why do people charge up dunes? I see it all the time too. Kills the car and anything in it that is not strapped down, drinks the fuel and endangers lives. Taking another 4psi out of the tyres will achieve the same result without the show-manship. Great reply Joe....thank you. Well worth the read.

Fab.

Fab I may have misunderstood Joe, but I thought this was referring to ALL parties involved in this sorry story?

quote "You are charging down a ONE lane highway......
You are cresting BLIND hills on a one lane highway .....
Your stopping ability is greatly reduced on downhill sand tracks ....
Everyone coming in the opposite direction potentially will be speeding ..... on a ONE LANE highway ...
You HAVE to assume anyone coming at you has no idea you are there ... on a ONE LANE highway ...
You may well be cresting a hill only to find a car broken down just over that hill .........
Transmit and moniter the UHF but DONT rely on it, you could be in the bottom of a hill and the other dude could be at the top and you will not get the signal, if he is charging up a hill and both hands full he may not be able to reply ... and you may be charging up the other side and cant reply and you both meet at the top or just over ....."

Fisho,
All good mate.

If you want a play by play account of how it happened, I've just explainned it all again to Garry at the bottom of this thread.

I know the UHF is not the be all and end all, but neither are flags when only one party is watching.

As Phil has pointed out a few times now, it really needs to be a combination of both.

Maybe you can help (please) because I keep getting told that we/our group leader was at fault but yet, I honestly can't see why.

I've secummed to the fact that calling the other person STUPID was out of line. I'll cop the wrath of that for years to come no doubt, but as to what should have happened...please I need someone with experience and expertise' to explain that to me.

Cheers...Fab :)

you are all gunna hate me but ..... how high is a sand flag, I mean when fixed on the car from the ground to the tip..
Sorry but I don't have one so cant check it out ...
I am gunna get to the bottom of this yet, ruled out UHF's, having 2 is a VERY good idea but not practical for most ....
:-)

Nah...fair question Joe.

I certainly don't know but perhaps someone might know if there is a minimum height.

I just measured mine and mine is just under 5 metres from the ground. I had my cable tied to one of my antennas because I only have a nudge bar that sits pretty low.

By comparison, mine was the shortest in overall height out of all the cars in our convoy.

Fab.

"Maybe you can help (please) because I keep getting told that we/our group leader was at fault but yet, I honestly can't see why."

nobody was "at fault" as there wasnt an accident. But it has been pointed out by many people what was wrong with blaming everyone else for the situation.
Heres a scenario
On the highway doing 100kmh, it starts persisting down with rain and vis drops to 50 meters. You carry on at 100, a cars broken down (or makin a phone call, arguing with his missus etc etc, got a flat tyre) and you smash into him(or any track/road/trail etc for that matter). Whos fault?

"officer I beeped my horn lots to warn people I was coming"
copper-"well I guess it was his fault cos he was deaf/had the stereo on/his missus was yelling at him"

What different? Your mate by luck didnt have an accident, and the other bloke if hed been 3 minutes earlier and crested onto YOU without looking-well Im pretty sure youd also be bleating it was his fault, and it would have been.

Get over it, learn from it, noone was hurt just a bit of pride.

thanks Fab, I am going to check out the "sand flag" concept as I also think it may be a bit like the UHF, it seems to me it also does not work in the way it is perceived to (or should) work ....
In flat country with scrub the flag will be seen and not the car, in THAT case it serves a purpose, in sand dune country if it was 6M high it would equate to only 3M high if each car was driving up each side of the hill, towards each other, there would be chart that could be done to work all that out BUT..... it is looking like it may NOT be serving the purpose that it is intended to .......
I will get back on that one.....
Fisho 64, I am certain now that nobody could ever blame anybody for any wrong doing when the "basic" pre-cautions have been taken, as I have learned in this, a UHF could actually give you a very false sense of security as could having a sand flag, yes there will be many a time when people will get stroppy but it all wears off quick when they realize no person could really ever claim to be the ONE in the right...
Also, some people spend a siht load of money on the FIRST big trip, spend weeks/months planning and think they have it all down pat, and good on them for planning at least, then along comes ME with a 3 hour plan and it pees them right off, I guess we are placed on this world to test out these people .... and it bring out the best in the end..
Cheers
Joe

Thanks Phil..... the voice of reason.

If nothing else, this serves as a reminder that poo can happen, it nearly did and the consequences for poo happening in remote areas is far more severe than poo happening at the local intersection.

If others can't take that learning away from this thread, then bad luck. But I'm not about to make excuses for my blunt comments.

Just like I make no excuses for pointing out the filthy buggers who leave their rubbish and dunny paper laying around...oh, but no one picked up on that one did they?

Thanks Phil. I appreciate your comments and I do hope to have that beer with you one day...cars in tact and with no injuries.

Fab.

I stopped responding in this Forum due to the attacks on individuals in threads but couldn't help but congratulate you Phil for pushing ahead with your down to Earth common sense.

I responded to a thread many moons ago about stopping at the top of a dune every now and then, calling ahead on the radio whilst having another on Scan for those that were on the wrong / different channel, and having a good look ahead for tell tale signs of movement (others cresting dunes) ahead.

All commonsense but got pulled apart from those that crest dunes at home :-)

I am about to do the Simpson for the 3rd time in July and believe me, I do not want to be the one that has to perform first aid on someone that didn't do enough homework or use a little commonsense.

Yes the first time I did sand driving was with a bunch of very experienced people and I learn't lots, but I did not learn the basics on my own in the Simpson Desert.

There was a serious incident on the Canning last year where 2 cars met at the top of a dune that required the smaller vehicle to be towed back to Kunawarritja - he learn't a very expensive lesson that day.

Cheers

Thank you Cookie and Phil,
It seems like the vast majority of people responding to this thread are hell bent on trying to keep things politically correct for fear of making enemies and trying to pull me up for my direct approach.

I'm dealing with facts, not emotion. If I make enemies because my rant educates another Simpson virgin on safe operating procedures, then so be it. I'm not about to sugar coat the fact that a very severe incident was avoided by fluke rather than good planning.

The fact still remains, the Simpson Desert Park Pass contains this information, it's readilly publicised on EO and other forums and there's signs advising of it on entry into the desert.

Fab

"Here is a bloke making a sensible and fair enough point"

If he made his points like that all the time I bet he's got no teeth!

Got all my teeth thanks Bob.

Tooth decay comes from too much sugar intake, hence I don't sugar coat my words.

Fab.

Hi Allan

We just said something like "Solo car heading east on WAA line" every second or third dune. And how strange was it that I actually stopped on the top of a dune when I called. I wonder why I did that. Hmmmmm.

Worked a treat and gave enough time for a brief meeting chat with the oncoming car before meeting. No hassles.

So easy. Even I can work that way. And I don't even know how to drive a tablet or god forbid an iphone etc. But apparently too easy for some. You have to laugh.

Phil

No need to be facetious Phil.
I am aware of the limitations of radio propagation and the desirability of elevation and would expect you also to exercise such good practice. Or did you just stop to relieve yourself?
My point clearly was the peril of taking some feeling of safety in no response to your broadcast. Nothing more.


I drive such that my vehicle slows to a crawl as I reach the dune crest and trust in my rigid high flag to alert an oncoming vehicle of my presence. I am convinced that this is a safer technique than broadcasting to someone who may not hear me. As has been said.... "It is the unloaded gun that may shoot you!"
So far it has worked brilliantly. LOL

Hi Allan

No insult meant Allan. Maybe I stuck to the radio stuff too much for your liking. Do you really think that we all go in blind folded. No we don't but why do we have to list everything in the car when the topic is obviously centered around using radios in the Simpson. I am not going there in this thread. Open one up on desert driving safety measures and that would be an appropriate thread to do that. So I ignored the flags and other stuff.

Hard isn't it to keep the conversation "on track". Excuse the pun please and again no insult meant.

Phil (may change my name. Too many Phils on also)

No worries Phil. I may do just that one of these days.

Both to John!!!!!

Allan,
I must commend you on the excellent point you make about sand flags. The higher is definitley the better.

Sand flags too have their limitations and unfortunatley this experience highlighted one such time.

Let me step you (and others) through it.
Car A heads up the dune looking for a sand flag. None seen so proceeds to crest the dune.
Car B in the meantime has commenced heading up the dune, and upon seeing the sand flag on Car A, Car B stops dead in its tracks just short of the crest.
Car A with a windscreen full of blue sky, proceeds slowly and upon levelling out gets a nice surprise when he meets face to face with Car B.

Now in hindsite I could pick the above scenario to bits and say that Car B should have stopped earlier, perhaps they didn't see the flag through inattention, perhaps Bar A's flag wasn't tall enough etc etc etc.

One thing is for sure flags alone, and radios alone are not sufficient. They must be used in conjunction with one another. I know I'm preaching to the converted Allan, but to a newbie, this might not be so obvious as to why both forms of communication must be used and not to get into that false sense of security that one will suffice.

Fab.

Hi Fab,
Thanks for your compliment to me re sand flags. Higher is only better when they stay higher and I have seen many long flexible poles that hang well back & low when the vehicle is in even slow forward motion.
My observation is that two vehicles with adequate dune flags will see each other even at a crest in sufficient time to stop, provided that they are not travelling at breakneck speed.
Certainly, the more safety precautions you take then the safer the situation but I would consider a good flag on your vehicle goes a long way even if the other vehicle is flagless. Whereas a even good radio on your vehicle is useless if the other vehicle has none. Your described situation validates this. Accordingly I place little reliance on UHF even if such as the Desert Park Pass and signs recommend it. I have passed many vehicles in the opposite direction but have heard few broadcasts of their approach.
Energy and Mining vehicles all carry dune flags and observe stringent safety practices but have you ever heard one broadcasting their approach? It is not part of their prescribed routine, or at least it was not when I worked in that industry in the Cooper Basin.

G'Day Mike,
Nah...you haven't upset me. Others? I can't comment.
I didn't call Vesko stupid and I won't. Like you pointed out, it took a lot of guts to do what he did and anyone who reads the post on his thread will see I prasied him for it.
The reference to stupid was more aimed at the fact that an accident nearlly happened and could have been further avoided had some stupid errors not been made. Things like radio comms..... at that point the thread went off the rails and now there are personal insults from one person to another.
I tried to talk to the Freelander guy as he went past. I tried to wave him down, he went past with the window up. I tried to call him on the UHF when he was just a couple of car lengths behind me...no response. I could only assume that the small handheld radio I saw was either off or not on channel 10 (The Simpson Desert channel). I admit, the reference to the 1/2 watt radio is an assumption by me, it may have been a 1 or 5 watt radio....who knows?
Fab.

Good point Candace,
Another thing that surprises me is the flag colour of choice is the High Vis orange which blends in pretty well with the colour of the dunes in the Simpson.

I often wonder why High Vis Green/Yellow isn't used?

Fab.

I had a collision in the Simpson last year with a moron with no radio or sand flag apparently just tooting his hoon at each dune which I didn't hear anyway.
Fortunately the damage to my vehicle was only superfucial but a few thousand dollars on his. I am totally miffed how someone can contemplate doing the Simpson without the correct communication system in place and a sand flag. My teenage children have never seen me that angry before!

I am quite surprised reading all of the above comments and debate about this issue when it is so simple.
Put a flag on your vehicle, the taller the better and regularly make yourself heard on channel 10 broadcasting from the top of the dune, when you receive communication from someone else you wait on a dune top until you get a visual on them maybe 2 or 3 dunes away and as you get closer to each other you communicate who will hold back and let the other party through.
It is very simple and common sense isn't it?
Compared to the cost in fuel etc to get to and cross the Simpson why can't people spend a couple of hundred dollars on a radio for the safety of themselves and others

Alby....THANK YOU for sharing your true life experience.
I can't believe the flack others and myself are copping on this forum of so called "experts" for suggesting something that is not only common sense, but is litterally thrust in front of your eyes in the way of the Desert Park Pass and signs upon entry to the Simpson Desert.

I bet your accidental visitor wishes he had of spent a few $$$ now, because the cost of recovery out there is often worth more than the car.

It's also easy to become complacent and rely on just the radio or just the flag to be seen/heard. They need to be used together. As you know, and anyone else who's been out that way, there are a few split seconds when you're starring at the sky that you physically can't see another car's flag until your nose levels out.

It's absolute B/S that people are arguing a point that is so mute or suggesting to sugar coat it with pink marshmellows and hundreds and thousands. It is what it is. End of story.

Thank you again for sharring your true life experience. Head ons are not some fabelled myth....they do happen and a lot more often than we care to imagine....just ask Barnsey at Birdsville Autos or perhaps Jeff at Mt. Dare who no doubts would have seen their fair share.

Fab.

Exactly Scandal, you couldn't be more spot on if you tried.

That's exactly what we were thinking. And yet, despite our UHF call outs and very tall flags on all our lead vehicles, we had no idea of the on coming traffic until our lead vehicle had crested the dune, filled his windscreen with bright blue sky and then levelled out on the decent that's when he saw the Freelander charging up the dune.....and charging he was.

The flag on it's own obviously didn't work in this scenario, and with the UHF calls falling on deaf (or off) ears, it was a matter of good fortune that a head on was avoided.
Fab.

Quite so Fab.


A UHF call unheard is pretty much the same as a dune flag unseen.


I would be very interested to hear Ozrover's (Jeff @ Mt Dare) view on the subject of dune flags and UHF broadcasts. Are you there Jeff?

Exactly Allan and it seems the ones doing the right thing get critised.

Like I said, our vehicles had flags...tall ones at that. We used UHF comms, approached the dunes with caution, stopped at the top etc etc etc....all the things I've read and learnt from this forum. The same things that have been written by many of the people who are now slagging me off for posting what I did. Go figure?

The problem is when the other car can't be heard, and fails to acknowledge your sand flag whilst charging up a dune (I suspect because they were using momentum rather than grip - tyre pressures? - I know what I saw). Then it becomes a recipe for disaster.

Allan, you speak very knowledgably and I hope that on my next trip out there, it's you I come across and not one of these other "experts".

Cheers.......Fab.

Fab72,

You are probably right in all that you have said.

I just think that it was the arrogant way you said it that got a lot of people upset.

Thank you Lyn,
It may have been the reference to the term "Stupid" that upset a few. (???) Glad to hear that it wasn't the content. I'm wondering if I had of structured the paragraph as below, whether there wouldn't have been such an uproar. (Changes in "CAPITALS" - even left my terrible grammar and spelling errors in). Is this not splitting hairs though? Refer to the original paragraph. There is little change. Curious to know what you think. Please remember my strength is not as a publicist or editor.
Thanking you in advance. :)
Fab.

"THE STUPID" delete..... "I CAME ACROSS A" persoen travelling solo in "A" Freelander. UHF's are "USEFUL" for calling your position when appraoching a dune. This allows others to gauge your position in relation to yours and if it sounds close, they'll wait until you've crested the dune and descended prior to heading up it. This is a story that is repeated time and time again and well publicised in the desert park park. Head ones are a real fcat of live and the responsibility of both parties. When one party is calling out their position and no response is heard, they assume there is no one else around and the dune is safe to cross. What they don't expect is to meet a "CAR" half way up a dune when they've alsready crested and are part way down the decent. We had tree cars, all with UHF radios ranging from 4.5dB, a 6dB and a 9dB. None of us heard any call out. "STUPID, STUPID, STUPID" delete..... And almost ended in a head on.

Fab,


If you said it around a campfire exactly as you originally phrased it, then probably no-one would attack you and most would probably agree with you. Any dissenters would probably do so with grace.


Perhaps I don't support all of your sentiments but I don't argue against you doing it your way. And, most of all, I would not refute your observations of the situation in the desert. You were there, not I, nor any others of us on this forum.

Fab,
I don't know about being "knowledgable". There would be many with more dune crossings up their sleeve than I. My rationale comes from some desert driving but even more from many years of industrial safety training and experience. What can appear to be obvious and 'common sense' sometimes is not so, and an analytical evaluation is more appropriate.

Good on ya Allan. Sounds like your a good Union Rep that moved over to OHS to ensure his future.
Dave.

Haha. Quite the opposite Dave.

We ran across the worst idiot on the Simpson last year, a middle aged German driving a Britz Troopy van solo, he had no UHF radio, no sand flag, no compressor or tyre guage. When I quizzed him and I lowered his pressures down to reasonable level, he showed me his EPIRB . The worst thing about his actions were that he had travelled across the Simpson the year before.
A real menace !!

Careful Pedro,
If that Idiot happens to be a subscriber of EO, you're gonna cop the wrath of the PC crowd.

If on the other hand the German is NOT, then go for it.

I've search through many old posts since I wrote this thread, and everyone is happy to jump on the bandwagon and share their experiences as seasoned travellers against inexperienced newbies BUT say something against an EO contributor and WTCH OUT!!! Let the gates of HELL open up.

Ironic how ponting out the mistakes of an EO contributor will probably reach it's target audience whereas the rants of some against non EO contributors are just wasted efforts from the safety of their computer chairs.

Fab.

P.S.....MURRAY.... Say it how it is hey? Hehe. Good to see someone else who's not bothered by Political Correctness aka SoftCorkitis.

Mate its not so much what you said but how you say it. You say you do not not sugar coat things, well maybe if you were a little more diplomatic three quarters of this thread would not be taken up discussing your lack of diplomacy and more on the relevant issues you raised.

Also remember that the other guy was coming up the dune and your leader went over the top and did not check to see if anyone was coming up. In my view your party was more at fault in the specific incident and you chose to bag out the other party without acknowledging your party's role.

Garry,
At the risk of repeating myself and perhaps I wasn't clear enough, our leader called out on the UHF, drove up the dune at less than 10kmp/h. Did not see any approaching vehicles of flags (confirmed by the rest of us and my dash cam from atop the previous dune), then as he levelled out (almost stationary), he had a car charging at him from the otherside, so he proceeded to stall stop his car to prevent rolling down the otherside and colliding with the Freelander.

Please share with me what more our trip leader could have done. I'll assume no reply as an acceptance that our leader could no have done anything more within his capabilities.

.....and YES...I'm getting sick of the B/S too. How some people can get so hung up on the content of this thread is beyond me. I hear worse remarks standing in a supermarket cue. If they took the time to re-read the initial comment rather than jumping on the bandwagon, I think they might just see that it was aimed to educate, share real life experiences and offer some advice. Hence, I didn't mention the other person's name....although others have taken it upon themselves to do so.

Fab.

I went from your leaders post on the other thread where I commented appropriately and the last time I checked he had not responded so like you I took his silence as agreement - however in reality silence does not imply acceptance or otherwise only silence.

Just as silence on the UHF does not imply a clear track ahead.

Garry,
I haven't been back to the other post since I wrote a follow up. Instead I've been waiting to see if Vesko replies.

You've avoided my question though.... what other measures should our group leader have taken, other than those he already took to avoid (as you say) responsibility for the near miss?

Fab.

Fab72.

As far as I am concerned you still don't get it!

To my way of thinking you come across as an arrogant and aggressive person travelling with a group of mates who can do no wrong.

Even your rig photo is posed in an aggressive manor.

Perhaps I'm totally wrong but that's the impression you portrayed to me.

Fab - I thought I mentioned not charging over the top if you leader could not see down the dune.

Why would you be waiting for Vesko to come back to the Forum let alone his thread after the lambasting you initiated - he will not be back.

I agree with Lyn - you just don't get it.

There is little point in continuing the discussion.

Garry

Hello Lyn,
Other than using the phrase "stupid" in my initial thread, yes, you are quite right...I don't get it. And to be totally honest, I can't for the life of me fathom what exactly I have done wrong. I've yet to have someone explain it factually and concisely. I've had plenty of people clouding the discussion but nothing straight to the point.

I'm genuinely sorry that you or anyone else perceives me as being arrogant or aggressive. Those that know me would agree that you or anyone else couldn't be further from the truth. Perhaps it's the way my comments are written and interpreted but believe me, when I sit here typing, it's the furthest thing from my mind. When I ask a question (like I did just above from Garry) I ask that with sincerity and curiosity so that IF there was something that either we or our group leader did wrong, then we can remedy the situation. The Fab bashing, although I have broad shoulders, isn't really resolving the issue. Am I writing in a way that is not clear? I don't know.

I though I made it clear that my trip leader was not charging up the dune...I even said "at a speed of less than 10kmp/h". Yeah... I don't get it and I agree I am not as seasoned a traveller as many others on here but no-one is taking the time to explain exactly what our group leader did wrong.

The rig photo being in an aggressive manner.... vehicles are not my speciality. Landscape and wildlife is where I find my forte'. As a amateur photographer, taking pictures of cars is something I have a lot to learn about still. 4WD action magazine did an article on photography which I happened to stumble upon in the lunch room at work. This was the pose they voted as the most effective and most popular. Aggressive? No way....it's an "io"..... far from being a Hummer or F-Truck.

Thank you Lyn and my sincere apologies if I have offended you. If by chance one day we do meet, you'll see for yourself that there is nothing other than sincerity in my opinions, comments and mannerisms.

Fab... :)

Garry,
I'm sorry if I didn't quite make myself clear. Our trip leader was not charging. He was travelling at less than 10kmp/h.

At the point where he reached the dune top there was no oncoming vehicle flag in site, not to him, nor to our other vehicle in the dune swales or to me on the top of the previous dune.

The oncoming vehicle only came into site to our group leader once our group leader levelled out (after a momentary windscreen full of blue sky). At this point, I doubt whether he would have been travelling at any more than 2kmp/h. (Less than walking pace).

He then sited an oncoming vehicle charging up the opposite face of the dune. I've spoken to him and he suggests the Freelander was about 1/2 up the dune when he was staitionary by now on the top of the dune. I personally couldn't see it still or it's flag. The first I knew of the oncoming car is when our leader mentioned that he was backing up. Reversing back over the dune he had crested to give way to the oncoming vehicle that was failing to yeild.

Garry...please tell me that makes sense. I really don't know what else our group could have done. Hey maybe I'm the stupid one and I'll take that critisisim onboard. But please, read the details, walk yourself through the situation and please advise our short-comings.

Thanks...Fab :)

Thank you Rockape,
Yes, slowly slowly I am venturing out more and more.

I'm glad you took the time to read the full extent of my post. It seems that perhaps my long-winded appraoch has lead some people to brush over a few points and miss out on the details.

Anyway, that aside... we had a great trip and YES... I do plan to venture out more after a few more mods. Until then, I'll keep reading EO and take onboard the advice that is priceless on here.

Cheers mate.

Fab.