Image of 4WDing

Submitted: Friday, Mar 02, 2007 at 18:26
ThreadID: 42861 Views:4022 Replies:20 FollowUps:19
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This has been posted on another forum so if you have seen it there please skip over it - I will be interested to see what reaction my thoughts get from this forum.

I have just a fairly robust discussion on a cycling forum trying to point out that not all 4WDers are a menace and it has made we wonder about a few things.
First let me explain where I am coming from as being new to this caper I may have a fresher slant on it than long term 4Wders (please do not think that this is some sort of put-down, nothing could be further from the truth).
My (our) reason for owning such a vehicle is that it enables us to get to places that we have not been previously been able to - we love bush camping away from the masses. 4WDing for the sake of it does not appeal to us - I would rather drive around a bog hole than try to get thru it.

On the cycling forum it started as the usual rant against our vehicles (I cannot bring myself to calling them trucks yet) - I am sure you know the type of things said. I tried to point out that there are valid reasons for SOME people owning them (towing, touring etc) and this struck a chord with quite a few (others will never budge). The main gripe is with those that never get off the bitumen and I think that this is where our problem lies.
There is no doubt that too many people buy them with no intention of getting off road and they are seen as far less environmentally friendly than a regular car, but to make it financially unattractive for these people to buy them would also hurt those of us that DO use them for their intended purpose.
What to do about this? I have no idea. All I (and any of us) can do is try to be as safe, courteous and considerate as possible while driving in the burbs so that we do not add to the problem. Maybe (and its a big maybe) people will differentiate between true 4WDers and Toorak tractor types.
On another tack, I used to look at trucks (there, I did it) with big lift and huge tyres with a certain amount of trepidation (not sure if that is the word I want, but I cannot think of a better one) - still do in fact. Why is this - because I have assumed (rightly or wrongly) that these are the trucks that go looking for bog holes (again no offence intended - each to their own).
A number of times I have been cycling in the bush and come across roads that are impassable to all but the best fitted out 4bees due to huge mud holes. These are roads that would normally be drivable in a 2WD car but are no longer so and I have to ask myself if this is a good look for the 4WD movement. I look at some of the photos on this site (and others) of trucks stuck in holes or blasting thru them and am not sure whether to laugh or cry - how does this fit in with the tread lightly philosophy?
The chicken and egg argument could apply here - are they holes that people have driven thru or where they puddles that are now holes due to 4WD's? I am not sure that it matters - the fact that their are tyre marks heading into and out of them is all the evidence that people will need.
Again I am not sure what the answer is but we do have an image problem and this cannot be helping it - maybe we need to have areas set aside for this type of activity, away from the public glare?
I will be interested to see what you guys think of all this (if you be bothered wading thru it all!) - as I said earlier I am a newcomer to this game and am not trying to cast aspersions on anyone's activities.
One last thing - does anyone else skip over messages that have funy speling and grama wivout no puntuaton - it may be cute but by God it is hard to read so I usually do not bother - why go to the trouble of typing these out if people will not read it?

IanM (ducking)
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Reply By: Mike Harding - Friday, Mar 02, 2007 at 18:49

Friday, Mar 02, 2007 at 18:49
As someone who owns a small 4WD I am often amused by all these people lecturing us about the energy our vehicles use... most of them seem to take delight in buying wide screen TVs and other junk which uses a whole _heap_ of energy in their creation and use. Perhaps a good example of this is Al Gore who, it seems, has combined gas and electricity bills of US$40,000 per year for his house! “An Inconvenient Truth” perhaps?

Hypocrisy at it's worst methinks.

Mike Harding
AnswerID: 224960

Follow Up By: Bware (Tweed Valley) - Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 23:27

Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 23:27
Good call, Mike,
Our footprint on this planet is more than just the car we drive....
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Reply By: MAVERICK(WA) - Friday, Mar 02, 2007 at 19:02

Friday, Mar 02, 2007 at 19:02
I think it is a thing called freedom of choice - so what if some person purchases a LC100 with a v8 and fits 21" wheels with 45 profile tyres and never goes off the bitumen - so what if some person purchases a LC100 and fits it with 44' swampers and drives it on the bitumen - and so what if some person purchases an EVO8 and never races or rallies it - so what..............and that is where it sits..........until we decend even deeper into a full dictatorship and all choices are removed then maybe we should just let up on the criticism on what the other person has or has not got and just live our own lives. As for cyclists - why do my taxes need to be spent on the creation (and construction) of specialised bike paths and still the lycra clad morons ride in groups along the roads - sort of like pedestrians bouncing off vehicles isn't it - cars = roads....pedestrians = footpaths......cyclists = bike ways
rgds
Slow down and relax......

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AnswerID: 224961

Reply By: Willem - Friday, Mar 02, 2007 at 19:04

Friday, Mar 02, 2007 at 19:04
Ian

The image problem is only espoused by a minority. The image worry is also only perpetuated by a few with the aid of TV or the Internet.

The far greater 4x4 owners such as Governments(State and Federal), Mining and the Farming and Pastoral Industries, could not be bothered by this. Their 4x4's are there to do a job.

The recreational 4x4'er may be drawn in to this image problem thing through 4x4 Clubs or other groups.

I live in the country and people here couldn't give a rats arse about an image problem with 4x4's. You either have one or you don't. Here 4x4's are used in industry or for recreation.

Maybe its a thing more pernitent to densely populated areas of our country. Maybe it is a jealously thing. Who knows?

My thoughts.

Cheers
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Reply By: Exploder - Friday, Mar 02, 2007 at 19:55

Friday, Mar 02, 2007 at 19:55
Again I am not sure what the answer is but we do have an image problem and this cannot be helping it> the only image problem we have is society trying to find fault at almost anything they can to try and bring some meaning into there pointless little life’s.

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Reply By: Andrew from Vivid Adventures - Friday, Mar 02, 2007 at 23:08

Friday, Mar 02, 2007 at 23:08
Remind the Cyclists that there are a number of cycling events, like the Simpson Desert Cycle Challenge and Crocodile Trophy wouldn't exist without the 4WD community and 4WDers and 4WDs to help them make it possible.

Tell them they ought to get out into the desert more themselves in one of these extreme events and join (for instance), the SDCC this year (October 1-6).

Cheers
Andrew.
AnswerID: 224978

Reply By: Member - Bill F (VIC) - Friday, Mar 02, 2007 at 23:36

Friday, Mar 02, 2007 at 23:36
Hi Ian

There are very few 4WD that are trucks
THERE ARE VERY FEW BIKES THAT ARE BIGGER THAN NORMAL CARS
National and State parks have more tracks to ride a bike on than a 4WD is allowed on
"These are roads that would normally be drivable in a 2WD car but are no longer so" This is normally the work of the Government to stop 2Wd vehicles from going further and requiring assistance from the authorities when they get bogged or damage their cars

Each to their own

Ps only unimagimative or narrow focased people will not attemp to read a criptive message

BillF
AnswerID: 224987

Reply By: V8Diesel - Friday, Mar 02, 2007 at 23:52

Friday, Mar 02, 2007 at 23:52
As if I'd give a flying frick what a bunch of shaved poonces in lycra tights think of me.

AnswerID: 224991

Follow Up By: GraemeD - Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 17:33

Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 17:33
Ah well, there you go. Who can argue with such a soundly reasoned, balanced view point as that?

Oh hang on, I can for a start! That kind of crap is just the flip side of what you hear from *some* cyclists, usually the vocal (but often not terribly eloquent) minority and gets nobody anywhere other than getting both sides more and more bleep off and strengthening their views that the other side are a bunch of raving thugs.

Just to enlighten you a little, most people when they take part in whatever their hobby/job/method of transport is will wear what is comfortable. When 4WDing that can be pretty much anything, shorts, thongs and t-shirt or pink tutu and rig boots, but when it comes to cycling where most of your weight is concentrated on a very small part of your arse (the perineum) the last thing you want there is a whacking great seam so a seamless bit of lycra is perfect. Also, something flapping loose round your legs/body can be very distracting and incredibly uncomfortable (not to mention leaving plenty of room for stingy insects to fly up and cause untold pain!). As for the leg shaving, there a lot of discussion about that even amongst cyclists, some claim it's so when (not if) you come of your bike and get road rash it's simpler to clean up and the wounds are less serious (grit and crap in the hairs etc.), others claim it's just for looks. Who knows? I sure as hell don't and I've been cycling for years (but have never shaved anywhere below my chin).

Anyway, take a look around you, not all cyclists wear lycra, just as not all 4WDers are petrol/diesel-headed environment wreckers.
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Follow Up By: V8Diesel - Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 18:24

Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 18:24
A nob is nob is anyone's language. I think those twits look like highly self indulgent victims of big budget advertising wearing decidedly gay outfits but if that's what floats their boat, good on 'em. The sheer arrogance the cycle groups in Perth that regularly display by blocking off lanes of traffic so long queues of cars form behind them due to a self procaimed priority and superiority amazes me. And the smug self importance in the media that really irks me. If they want to throw the first one, expect some back.

As stated before, I simply don't give a rat's what they think.

Care factor zero.
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Follow Up By: GraemeD - Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 20:31

Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 20:31
So it looks like you think someone is a knob just because their fashion sense doesn't match with yours. I must admit I'm not into the "walking billboard" look myself be it cycling companies or the Nike/Adidas type stuff worn by the "oh so cool" yoof these days (jings I'm getting old)) but if someone else is happy to wear it for whatever reason then so be it.

As for the blocking the road, would you prefer that those 20-30 cyclists (or however many) were all in 20-30 cars? They would block the road just as much if not considerably more, but they probably wouldn't register with you as they are "proper" traffic and part and parcel of everyday congestion. Whenever I cycle I find it mildly amusing that some idiot will try to show how big his balls are by revving his engine whilst at the lights and screaming away as fast as he can when they turn green, only for me to slowly trundle up beside him at the next set of lights.

Remember, for every (k)nob you see on a bike there is usually one less car blocking your precious journey.
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Follow Up By: Bware (Tweed Valley) - Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 20:32

Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 20:32
Mr Diesel, I thought your reply was hilarious! LOL Nice one, fella :-))))
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Follow Up By: V8Diesel - Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 22:40

Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 22:40
Thanks mate, I do try.

Got to liven the joint up from time to time;-))))

And Graeme, according to Viz magazine's Rogers Profanisaurus the correct spelling of the mildly derogatory term above is 'nob' with no k. I take them to be the foremost authority on such matters. Also, if you're ever at a cyclist's convention or mardi gras or whatever it's called, please make the membership aware that the biggest conundrum I face currently in life is figuring out how to drive my bull bar equipped, petrol 100 Series Landcruiser and two V8 Fords concurrently as it distresses me to see them sitting in the shed next to my motorbike and two-stroke outboard motor. With advances in modern RC units I am certain this joyous time is not too far away.
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Follow Up By: GraemeD - Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 23:04

Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 23:04
I'm not likely to be at either such gathering, I find that large gatherings of any kind of minority group tend to attract the weirdoes (or at least they're the ones that stand out). And what's with the list of motorised toys? I take it you've labelled me as a "knit your own muesli" eco-freak cyclist who thinks all 4x4 owners should be squashed under their own wheels? Just to conform to your stereotype, should I get rid of my lifted HJ61 (yes, with all sorts of add-ons that are too tedious to list)?

By the way, if you need to resort to Roger's Profanisaurus, you're an amature! Being born and raised in Scotland, insults of varying strengths are genetically imprinted in my brain. Now awa an bile yer heid ya daft gowk! :-)
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Follow Up By: Bware (Tweed Valley) - Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 23:43

Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 23:43
GraemeD
I don't know V8Diesel from a bar of soap but I think he has said much in his small statement. Sometimes waffling on says alot less.

Perhaps having no thought for what others think is THE pre-requisite for a happy life. That is a pretty good answer for the original post. You just need to be able to see it.
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Follow Up By: GraemeD - Monday, Mar 05, 2007 at 00:09

Monday, Mar 05, 2007 at 00:09
I think there's a number of people here who need to get some anti-cyclist sentiment out of their system - Site Link

Have fun! :-)
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Follow Up By: IanM (Vic) - Monday, Mar 05, 2007 at 10:46

Monday, Mar 05, 2007 at 10:46
"Perhaps having no thought for what others think is THE pre-requisite for a happy life. That is a pretty good answer for the original post. You just need to be able to see it."
Cannot agree with that - not caring what others think can also be a good way to hasten your own demise.
Hard core criminals clearly do not care what the rest of society thinks of them and look where most of them finish up. This might be an extreme example I know but I hope you see the point I am trying to make - we should care and we should be doing things to make ourselves look better, even if it is as simple as being courteous
while in our vehicles. Some of the responses so far (the stuff em all, cyclists can go to hell etc) make me wonder how some people behave behind the wheel - the typical aggressive 4WD stereotype maybe?
IanM
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Follow Up By: Bware (Tweed Valley) - Monday, Mar 05, 2007 at 18:52

Monday, Mar 05, 2007 at 18:52
IanM, there is a difference between not caring about other people and not caring what others think about you. The latter inhibits you from being yourself and doing what is right for you.
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Reply By: Footloose - Friday, Mar 02, 2007 at 23:56

Friday, Mar 02, 2007 at 23:56
I'd just like to point out that in my area cyclists are the ones with image problems. They use the roads as cycle tracks when it is demonstrably dangerous for them to do so. We have fatalities every year in competative groups going for their practise rides on our overcrowded fast moving roads. . Most of these groups ignore taxpayer funded cycle ways and hog the road, as is their "legal right". But its sheer stupidity to ride two abreast around blind corners with the sun in the car drivers eyes. The car will be doing the speed limit and the bike considerably less. Up here, such incidents are everyday common. Beetle hats and lycra do NOT save them from an accident caused by asserting their legal right to ride on the road. They're just as dead as if they didn't have that right.

So these guys are whinging about 4wds ?

Where's THEIR credibility ?
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Reply By: DFVZ - Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 00:52

Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 00:52
We buy the type of vehicle that suits us and meets are needs / wants. As in every walk of life there are people who don't agree and think they and only they know what is right for the rest of us. They are minority groups who just can't accept that they are a minority. They have a syndrome that most minority groups have and that is that they need to make noise to make themselves feel bigger. It is just a PITA that the media give minority groups the airspace to get heard. If they get heard often enough people begin to think that "oh, we must feel that way or we are not normal". Our attitude is bugger the minority groups, we look at what we need and what suits us, more people should do the same because the way things are going everyone will be like a clone in the not too distant future.
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Reply By: Garbutt - Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 09:12

Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 09:12
Aren't people wonderful, complaining about being stereotyped then refering to cyclists as shaved poonces and lycra clad morons.
Yes I have a 4wd and several bikes, where should I be pigeonholed?
AnswerID: 225032

Follow Up By: GraemeD - Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 19:34

Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 19:34
Dunno, but I'll be in the same one. There'll probably be others from here in there too :-)
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Reply By: IanM (Vic) - Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 09:15

Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 09:15
Whoe there boys!
While venting your spleen at cyclists you have missed the point of my post - I said that most of them are accepting of 4WD's when they are used for their intended purpose (that's us) - their annoyance is directed at the Toorak Tractor types.
Believe me when I say that cyclists get just as annoyed as the rest of us at the bleep element amongst them that run red lights etc - the mud sticks to them (us - wearing my bike hat) all.
If I could just make a couple of quick points on cycling.
Cyclists do, in fact, pay taxes as well, and some of those taxes get used for things that do not concern them - much like your taxes going on bike paths. However if you have kids (or plant) then I think you will get some benefit from paths. Most, if not all, cyclists also would own a car, so pay rego at the same rate as the rest of us, but as they probably do less miles in their cars get less bang for their buck from that.
Why do lycra clad fools not use bike paths? Paths are also used by pedestrians (chatting with each other or with walkmans), people walking dogs, kids on bikes and others. I gave up on paths a long time ago as they are just useless for anything other than a very slow cruise or a rid with the kids.

"Remind the Cyclists that there are a number of cycling events, like the Simpson Desert Cycle Challenge and Crocodile Trophy wouldn't exist without the 4WD community and 4WDers and 4WDs to help them make it possible."
Andrew, I think that they would realise that - see above re Toorak Tractors.
Footloose, both groups are similar in that they have an image problem caused by a section - cyclists by morons, 4WDers by Toorak Tractors and the "I will go where I want" types.
I am not sure that hurling abuse at "lycra clad idiots" (not you Footloose) helps our cause any - besides the next one of those could be me, as I have a foot in both camps.
IanM

AnswerID: 225033

Follow Up By: Chucky - Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 11:46

Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 11:46
Bikes riders claim that they have a car and pay rego, so they have full rights to roads is wrong.

By this argument, why do I have to pay rego on both my 4wd and my motorbike? I can only use one at a time.

If you ride a push bike on the road, and over the age of 16 then you should have to get a licence, (which can be removed for breaking the rules) and pay a yearly fee.
If you don't want to pay the fee or get a licence then you must stick to bike paths.
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Follow Up By: Footloose - Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 12:31

Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 12:31
Guys, I am not against cyclists. Like most, I have ridden and enjoyed pushbikes.
My gripe was against cyclists who don't appear to realize that roads and cars don't mix. For years I campained to get a cycle way for the groups of racing clubs that ride a particular road. We got it and they still ride on the road. Crazy !
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Follow Up By: GraemeD - Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 19:32

Sunday, Mar 04, 2007 at 19:32
Chucky, you're right when you say bike riders are wrong when they say they have full rights to the road because they pay rego on their cars, but unfortunately not for the reason you think. Cyclists have full rights to cycle on the roads (barring certain special categories of roads which pretty much just means freeways) even if they did not have a car which they paid rego for. A motorised vehicle has no right to use the road and a *license* to do so must be bought (your "rego"). Have a read of the road traffic act for your state before you say I'm wrong.

Rego doesn't pay for the roads anyway. If it's a local road, then it's paid for by local taxes (i.e. rates), state road - state taxes, interstate road/national highway - federal taxes (pretty rough breakdown, but closer than "my rego pays for the roads").

Footloose, did you mean to say "roads and cars don't mix"? That would make for an interesting transport policy :-) If you meant to say "bikes and cars don't mix" then, unfortunately, these days that is increasingly right. When there were fewer cars and more bikes they mixed fine, but these days more and more cyclists are being scared off the roads not just by the number of cars but by the behaviour of drivers. Some try the cycle paths instead, but as has already been said they can be just as dangerous, if not more so - day dreaming pedestrians and 30km/h cyclists are an accident waiting to happen and some cycle paths are so badly designed they're inherently dangerous (the "paint a few lines at the side of the road" type are particularly bad). The net effect is less cyslists on the road, therefore drivers are less used to seeing cyclists and don't look out for them and don't know how to react when they see them (or worse, go out of their way to intimidate them).

Either way, whatever is said here is *very* unlikely to make any real change to the situation in either direction as this exact argument has been played out hundreds of times with little or no agreement.
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Reply By: hoyks - Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 10:21

Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 10:21
I don’t use the term truck either.

I can’t say I am a fan of the Toorak/Turramurra tractor brigade either. I only make the occasional trip to the city but you notice the nice shiny brand new wagons being driven by people with no consideration for anyone else around them, but a lot of Mercs, BMW’s and old clunkers are being driven the same way. It is the 4bies that stand out. The problem is that is too easy to label a whole group based on the experience with a few.
Every one will remember the clown that blew past, sprayed you with muddy water and knocked you off the road, but not the bloke that waved you through at the intersection, or stopped in the bush to help pump up a flat and refill your water bottles. That’s, I think, because you have made a personal connection with the driver rather than inhuman vehicle.

I was a trail bike rider too and I see it all the time where the magazines run down 4x4 owners, but neglect to remember that a lot of the readers own 4x4’s too so they can go camping and riding.

You can’t discriminate on the basis of religion, ethnicity or gender anymore, but vilifying someone solely on the basis of what vehicle they choose to drive is fair game it would appear.
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Reply By: whyallacookie - Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 11:05

Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 11:05
IanM By posting this on several forums you are in fact pushing the issue more.

I take issue with your comment about not using paths because of pedestrians walking and listening to walkman/discman/ipod etc

Guess what MOST cyclists do the same when they ride. I nearly ran over 1 on my way to work this morning when he decided to come out of a side street and go across the road I was driving along (Dual lane both ways). Don't know if he just didn't see me or didn't look, I'm, giving the benefit of the doubt and saying he did what we all have been guilty of doing and only having a half look.

Had he not have had the music on the Ipod blaring (I could hear it through my open window) he may have heard my diesel. I'm not against listening to music or riding bikes or the right to use the roads etc but if we drove with the music that loud we would have our car impounded.
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Reply By: IanM (Vic) - Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 11:18

Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 11:18
whyallacookie

I am not actually trying to push any issue, just wondering what we can do to improve our image with the general public - and it does need improving, I do think we can dispute that. You only have to look at the various surveys and articles in the papers to see that, but as I have said the Toorak Tractor types are causing a good deal of the grief.

I have to disagree with you on cyclists and i-pods - I cannot remember the last time I saw that occur. But it is dills like the one you saw that reflect badly on us all.
(Please do not think I have anything against pedestrians using them, but the same issue is there - they cannot hear a bike coming - even with bell ringing - so it is just not worth riding on them).

IanM
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Reply By: Footloose - Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 12:55

Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 12:55
Ian, what can we do for our image ?
Second hand car salesmen have poor images
Politicians have poor images
Policemen have poor images
Schoolteachers have poor images
If you dont subscribe to the Sydney Mardi Gras you have a poor image
If you're not "green" you have a poor image
If you make too much money you have a poor image
If you don't make enough money you're just poor...obviously its your problem as you made some bad choices ...tough luck.
Mate, you can be gay, 93 other shades of preferences, black brown or green, but poor, sick or old isn't cool. Sorry, you don't get your own TV show.
If you drive a Merc (or anything else)you have a poor image

I guess I'm just going to have to accept that Australia is the land of poor images.
A land where everyone seems to have their nose in your business.
OK boys and girls, leave your bullbars at the city limits unless you have a permit.
"No 4wd parking in these spaces"
"no this, no that"
"do this, do that"
A man's home is OUR castle.

Umm...anyone else feel that they've been around city folk for too long ? :))))))

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Follow Up By: whyallacookie - Monday, Mar 05, 2007 at 15:28

Monday, Mar 05, 2007 at 15:28
Well put!
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Reply By: JimDi - Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 16:12

Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 16:12
I live in a major city and drive an 80 series landcruiser and tow an off rd camper trailer when I get the opportunity.
What am I supposed to do, ask the city to tear up roads and make them 4wd. Buy a second car or buy a bike and hide the 4wd.
If I could spend more time bush I would ,but cant so thats the simple answer.
As for the damage to the environment etc, I dont think one can blame four wheel drivers for cementing over large areas of cities. That was done so we could all get around easier including all transport users. Buses taxis trains etc..
As for bike riders good luck to them,but it never ceases to amaze me the number of bike riders in the dark early hours of the morning riding around with little or no reflective gear or lights and trying to share roads with all other users,but as someone else said not paying for the privilege.
And I am still at a loss as to why they shave their legs.
JimDi
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Reply By: Ozboc - Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 16:48

Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 16:48
Had this arguement with a few people now, They ask why do i need such a big 4x4 ( nissan patrol 4.2 turbo with lift so on and so on ) Reply - i go camping almost every second weekend - and not talking to a caravan park! also the fact we need a 7 seater for my Gf's 3 kids and my 1 - AND i have a large trailer and a Skiboat i tow around -

They then start on the whole fuel efficience thing and how much diesel i use and waste- to which i counter argue with " My make my own bio diesel from old cooking oil and run it at 100% - i am therefore using a renewable source - what about you and your 2 litre petrol car ?

this usually ends there arguements pretty quick.

Boc


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Reply By: rolande- Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 20:12

Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 20:12
G'Day IanM,

I have a couple of points to add to the arguement, specifically with what is happening to the "Great Otway National Park"

Now this is an area that traditionally sustains everything from Loggers, wood cutters, seed gatherers, to eco tourism, horse riders, bush walkers and campers, and for many years, the 4WD fraternity.

Now our "green" government, in an effort to shore up support in the middle of Melbourne, (2 hours away), have come up with a brilliant plan.

1. Stop logging - that will get us a few votes. Close 4WD tracks - that gains a few more, (and also stop horse riders, people walking their dogs etc)

2. Convince local wood cutters, loggers etc that tourism is the way to go. Spend lots of money on "studies" and some how come up with the plan that mountain bike riders will be the solution to all your problems.

3. Get a bull dozer out and clear tracks all through bush and water catchment areas, (we are on stage 4), and put tonnes on stone dust down. Remember, these are tracks built were no tracks; walking, driving, riding, etc, had existed previously.

4. Spend more money building a car park so these mountain bike riders can safely park their cars while they spend the afternoon enjoying the great outdoors, and then take off home before the Sunday afternoon rush.

5. Close all bush camping spots by putting up gates and bollards, and squeeze those who wish to bush camp into an every decreasing number of camps - then complain that maintenance costs too much so make it a walk-in camp area only - by pushing down half of another hillside and building a car park so campers can walk all their equipment 100m into the camping area. Several hundred more tonnes of stone dust so 2WD can get in as well.

6. Tell the unemployed how good this all is and how wonderfull their lives are now that the mountain bikers come to town and spend all that extra cash supporting local business. (which they don't of course).

So, if 4WD's should be kept out of the city - fine with me - so long as the bike riders stay at home in the city, so we can enjoy our peaceful, quiet, productive existence as we once did, before Parks Victoria came to help us all out and "improve" our lives.

Regards

Rolande
AnswerID: 225119

Reply By: lifeisgood - Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 21:49

Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 21:49
Well that shows we all have different interests and outlooks on things.
Pity we waste a lot of time fighting one another over such activities or recreation or mode of transport.
Better to try and chill out a little - lifes too short for anger and envy.
A big dollop of courtesy and consideration for all users would make for a better culture and society. Good wishes to all !

AnswerID: 225139

Reply By: IanM (Vic) - Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 23:25

Saturday, Mar 03, 2007 at 23:25
This thread seems to be more about bashing cyclists than anything else, so I will try one more time to make myself clear.
I only used cyclists as an example of what people in general think of 4WDers - it seems that most of you have had the same comments made our vehicles, and I imagine that those comments where not all made by people in lycra.
If you read my first post I said that people are generally accepting of 4WD's, whether they be in the country or city, if they are used for something other than dropping the kids off to school.
I am not sure how that statement has led to some of the angry responses that have surfaced - it would seem that quite a few 4WDers ride bikes and, surprise surprise, quite a few cyclists own a 4WD, so the two things are not mutually exclusive.
Both groups enjoy the outdoors and both pay taxes. As a driver why the hell should I pay for bike paths I will never use? As a cyclist why should I pay for high country track maintenance as I will never go there? We all pay for things we will never use, so I do not see that as a valid argument.
I believe that we simply must be seen to be responsible, caring (for the environment and other road/track users) if our lifestyle is to continue - some of the responses here, I am sad to say, have been anything but that.
Call me crazy, cast me to the lions, but that is what I think.

By the way, I have never shaved my legs, nor do I know anyone that does. I believe professional cyclist do it as it makes first aid easier after a fall - hope that clears that one up.

IanM (running for cover)
AnswerID: 225151

Follow Up By: whyallacookie - Monday, Mar 05, 2007 at 15:36

Monday, Mar 05, 2007 at 15:36
To reduce wind drag..... Same as swimmers
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FollowupID: 486336

Follow Up By: whyallacookie - Monday, Mar 05, 2007 at 15:36

Monday, Mar 05, 2007 at 15:36
Before someone says it.... the swimmers do it to reduce drag through the water... not wind!
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FollowupID: 486337

Follow Up By: V8Diesel - Monday, Mar 05, 2007 at 23:07

Monday, Mar 05, 2007 at 23:07
IanM, I beg to differ and at a rough guess would say the 'lycra brigade' would be by far the majority of complainants. I base this on the holier than thou attitudes displayed on the roadways of Perth and put forward on across the airwaves by ABC talk back radio callers. I also live near and frequent Fremantle which has had more than its fair share of anti 4x4 press of late.

I don't begrudge others opinions whatsoever, but I loathe hypocrisy, wowsers and self appointed moral guardians of any persuasion. I make it my duty to infuriate them at every turn and I find by not only ignoring their edicts, but making it abundantly clear to their peers that I know they are tut-tutting meddlesome twits.

For the record I have nothing against bikes and actually rode my deadly treadly to Albany the hard way through the Karri forest's (I like them too BTW) so I can say I've probably done some bigger rides than many of the urban cafe warriors. I wore shorts, t-shirts and I'm quite a hirsute gent too.

I get on just fine with most anyone but I'm big enough and ugly enough to look after myself and only want one Mum.

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FollowupID: 486444

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